Ahern to announce EUR140m State broadband initiative

Xian

Irish Times, Friday 12 December 2003

Communications minister Mr Ahern will today announce details of a €140 million plan to make high-speed telecommunications technology available to more than 350,000 people around the State.

The initiative will involve connecting 80 towns with populations varying between 1,500 and 16,700 through a broadband network and funding group broadband schemes for smaller communities where there is enough demand for the service.

The Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources has approval to spend a total of €140 million on the project between now and 2007. This will represent a spend of €35 million a year. Mr Ahern last week secured an extra €105 million for the scheme from the Government.

Under the plan, the Government will pay to connect the towns with the backbone broadband network. Telecoms providers will then be able to lease the lines at competitive rates and sell the services to consumers and business.

The current metropolitan area networks scheme, which involves 19 towns, is set to be completed in the middle of 2005 at a cost of €64 million. However, the Minister says he does not believe this goes far enough on delivering broadband to the State as a whole.

Mr Ahern will unveil details of the plan at a meeting of the Information Society Commission in Government Buildings later today. The largest town to benefit from the scheme will be Newbridge in Co Kildare, which has a population of 16,739; the smallest will be Moate, Co Westmeath.

The scheme will cover all towns with populations of more than 1,500 - 88 in all - and the list includes most sizeable settlements not included in the metropolitan area networks programme. The Department has also agreed to fund group broadband schemes for smaller communities. This will allow residents and businesses in these areas to pool their demand. The Department will provide half the cost of connecting these areas.

[edit]DeV - support UTF-8. You know it makes sense![/edit]

vinnyfitz

Sounds very like our chairman's objective mapped out last summer at the AGM, On the radio he compared the group scheme to the group water scheme of old. I wonder whether did I hear that before Xian?

So will it work? Is €35m for 4 years enough to connect the 88 towns and to facilitate the smaller group schemes?

How will they actually do the work? Hand out the cash to local authorities? If so have they learnt enough from the MANs project how to spend it?

Will Councils also be responsible for the group scheme? Will there be a communications strategy to trigger demand for the group scheme? Sounds like a job for IOFFL perhaps? Though I bet the BMW and South and East Regional Authorities will fancy themselves to do this...

Eurorunner

Ahern was interviewed this morning on Radio 1 - i'd imagine RTÉ will put it on their website later today.


Do we have a list of the towns covered yet then??

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by Eurorunner
Ahern was interviewed this morning on Radio 1 - i'd imagine RTÉ will put it on their website later today.



Do we have a list of the towns covered yet then??

Yep it will be downloadable from around 9.30

In principle "all towns" will be covered by one scheme or the other going by the way they are spinning it.

viking

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Yep it will be downloadable from around 9.30

From the department's website?

viking

vinnyfitz

Edit: Up now here

http://www.rte.ie/news/2003/1212/morningireland.html
Listen to the bottom item main business news with Robert Shortt

also found this comment on the RTE print report on the story:
Mr Ahern also intends to bring in tougher fines for telecommunications companies that breach the law with fines equal to 10% of total revenue envisaged.

SkepticOne

http://www.onbusiness.ie/2003/1212/broadband.html

The Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources Dermot Ahern is to announce a major initiative later today to roll out broadband to 80 towns across the country.

This is in addition to the 19 towns covered by the Metropolitan Area Network.

Annual funding of €35m a year for the next four years has been set aside for the project where local communities will be funded for up to 50% of a Group Broadband Scheme.

Mr Ahern also intends to bring in tougher fines for telecommunications companies that breach the law with fines equal to 10% of total revenue envisaged.

spongebob

Its a relaunch of Phase 2 of Mary O'Rourkes fibre rings project .The phasing is Here . It is not new but a re-announcement.

What is new is that Wireless groups will be recognised . Good one Dermot and fair play for that.

Phase 1 is nearing completion (19 Towns + Kiltimagh)

Phase 2 is being announced again today (another 48 towns)

(That makes 67 + Kiltimagh = 68)

I assume that certain Louth towns that were originally in Phase 3 have been upgraded to phase 2

The ORIGINAL anouncements back in 2002 that were in

http://www.gov.ie/tec/press02/March8th2002.htm

and

http://www.athlone.ie/broadband/Broadband_press_release.htm

have been ASSIDOUSLY removed from the Athlone and Government websites, funny that. Mary O'Rourke never existed it seems.

M

thegills

Sounds like a job for IOFFL perhaps? Though I bet the BMW and South and East Regional Authorities will fancy themselves to do this...

Shannon Broadband too.

spongebob

The BMW can't even finish Ballyhaunis I hear the Comptroller and Auditor General could be taking an interest in the BMW and its monitoring of expenditure , they are unfit to be given any responsibility for a dig of any sort given the funds involved IMO .

Shannon Broadband have managed to do a large project in Limerick on time and on Budget , is that what we are really saying TheGills . ?!??

M

thegills

Shannon Broadband have managed to do a large project in Limerick on time and on Budget , is that what we are really saying TheGills

Early days Muck but looking good.

thegills

Fallschirmjager

well im in phase 3....2010...christ on a bike...2010 for broadband....


so all towns over 1,500 my arse......

Mr_Man

Since a number of the towns in phase two are already BB enabled will this mean that more towns from phase 3 will be added to phase two, or will they replicate what is already in place ?

M.

bealtine

Link

Don't know if the guid will still be valid...


<Edit: Fixed your link -Moriarty>

nilhg

The list of towns is herehere a 1.8mb word doc just to encourage the take up of broadband

spongebob

Weird.

From the Department Website here is a list of Towns which WILL NOT get DSL or MAN .

These towns are not in the original list of 19 towns which get the Fibre (MAN referred to below)

Lots of these have DSL though, Cavan Monaghan Skerries Oranmore and Athenry are here. On face value these look like towns which will get nothing from the Department. Dunno who will get something or what the criteria are .

Proposed Towns not covered for DSL or MAN's
Town Population CSO 2002 Town Population CSO 2002
1 Cavan 6,098 45 Kilcock 2,740
2 Monaghan 5,936 46 MuineBheag(Bagenalstown) 2,728
3 Newbridge 16,739 47 Ballyshannon 2,715
4 Carrigaline 11,191 48 Clara 2,704
5 Maynooth 10,151 49 Kilrush 2,699
6 Cobh 9,811 50 Charleville 2,685
7 Skerries 9,149 51 Monasterevin 2,583
8 Tramore 8,305 52 Newtownmountkennedy 2,521
9 Midleton 7,957 53 Blessington 2,509
10 Longford 7,557 54 Rathcoole 2499
11 Youghal 6,597 55 Lusk 2,456
12 Nenagh 6,454 56 Tullow 2,417
13 Trim 5,894 57 Templemore 2,270
14 Kildare 5,694 58 Boyle 2,205
15 Laytown- Bettystown 5,597 59 Kinsealy-Drinan 2,110
16 Carrick-on-Suir 5,586 60 Duleek 2,173
17 Dunboyne 5,363 61 Castleisland 2,162
18 Buncrana 5,271 62 Athenry 2,154
19 Tipperary 4,964 63 Blarney 2,146
20 Fermoy 4,804 64 Claremorris 2,101
21 Passage West 4,595 65 Skibbereen 2,000
22 Roscrea 4,578 66 Clones 1,947
23 Edenderry 4,559 67 Enniskerry 1,904
24 Birr 4,436 68 Kenmare 1,844
25 Kells 4,421 69 Bundoran 1,842
26 Clane 4,417 70 Dingle 1,828
27 Newcastle West 4,017 71 Rathangan 1,811
28 Loughrea 4,004 72 Castlerea 1,788
29 Portarlington 4,001 73 Gort 1,776
30 Ardee 3,948 74 Dunmore East 1,750
31 Carrickmacross 3,832 75 Coothill 1,744
32 Donabate 3,854 76 Portrane 1,726
33 Ratoath 3,794 77 Oranmore 1,692
34 Ballybofey3,603 78 Abbeyfeale 1,683
35 Kinsale 3,554 79 Carndonagh 1,673
36 Mountmellick 3,361 80 Bailieborough 1,660
37 Mitchelstown 3,300 81 Kanturk 1,651
38 Bantry 3,150 82 Balinrobe 1,626
39 Dunshaughlin 3,063 83 Thomastown 1,600
40 Castleblaney 2,936 84 Banagher 1,553
41 Sallins 2,922 85 Athboy 1,538
42 Kilcoole 2,826 86 Dunmanway 1,532
43 Cahir 2,794 87 Prosperous 1,523
44 Cashel 2,770 88 Moate 1,520

M

vinnyfitz

I think what they mean is these are towns not covered by DSL or MANs already

This is the list of towns to be covered over the next 4 years in the scheme allright.

Edit: In fact it is the full list of not yet served Irish towns with a pop of more than 1500. If your town ain't listed and has a bigger pop now is your time to go mental.

If you are less than 1500 pop then there will also be the group data thingy option.

thegills

What group broadband scheme in a small community is going to have 50% of the cost of a base station (site rental, build costs, etc.) as well as a costly backbone (Muck what does an E1 cost from eircom), not to mention the CPE costs and on-going annual costs?????

Moriarty

Originally posted by thegills
What group broadband scheme in a small community is going to have 50% of the cost of a base station (site rental, build costs, etc.) as well as a costly backbone (Muck what does an E1 cost from eircom), not to mention the CPE costs and on-going annual costs?????

Answer: Little to none.

Hmph.

BArra

my town isnt listed there, and it has more than 2,000 people.. carrigtohill in cork.

what the hell am i gonna do? being waiting so long for broadband already

Moriarty

It looks good from a quick read, here are the key elements they have listed..

The key elements of the Broadband Action Plan are

• connecting 80 towns of 1,500 population to broadband with Community Broadband Exchanges and strategic fibre
• a new Group Broadband Scheme similar to group water schemes where smaller rural communities can pool their demands and secure high speed connectivity from a range of providers in the Irish market through grants from the Government
• a spend of €140 million from Government committed under Multi-Annual Budget approval representing €35 million annually between now and 2007
• tougher fines against those infringing communications laws
• new Policy Directions to the Telecoms Regulator focussing on delivering competitive pricing
• a website where consumers demanding broadband can register and see competing prices from broadband providers.

It looks like Dermot Ahern and the dcmnr have listened to everyone finally.

Yoda

Congratulations to Xian and all of the IOFFL committee members, whose Group Data Scheme has been rebaptized the Group Broadband Scheme and is now national policy. Well done. Tús maith leath na hoibre.

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by BArra
my town isnt listed there, and it has more than 2,000 people.. carrigtohill in cork.

what the hell am i gonna do? being waiting so long for broadband already

If you are sure about your census pop data and you are sure you are not included (e.g. in Cork city DSL roll out plans or under another catchment area) Ring your local FF TD immediately - this afternoon like - and get him to get on to Dermot Ahern.

check www.cso.ie for census data

molinaalexis

According with the numbers obtained from
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/files/Dec-13A%20List%20only%20of%20Towns.doc

Longford have in 2002 7,557, However in:

http://www.cso.ie/census/pdfs/vol1_entire.pdf

Longford had in 1996 30,166 and in 2002 31,068

there is a difference of 23,511

How is possible that this sources from the government have so different figures?

Do they read at each others documents ?

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills
What group broadband scheme in a small community is going to have 50% of the cost of a base station (site rental, build costs, etc.) as well as a costly backbone (Muck what does an E1 cost from eircom), not to mention the CPE costs and on-going annual costs?????

E1 from Eircom is €45,000 a year with 16 IP addresses (2mbit/2Mbit) as there are no Eircom pops outside the large towns there will be a sizeable tail cost , which is included in that figure.

Base station , as little as €500 using 802.11 kit on a twig in a garden.

Up to €20,000 in the first year for commercial heavy duty base station and mast space and €5 a year for the mast space thereafter.

The mast space is liveable with but €45k a year for a leased line is monopoly money.

M

vinnyfitz

No way the pop of Longford town is anything like 30K Dundalk is 30 something K.

That is the problem with statistics though - hard to connect like and like.

Anyway Longford is on the list so you should be on track...?

spongebob

Longford is another town that Already Has Broadband as it happens.

Only one County Galway town, not already provisioned or verifiably in the process of being provisioned for RADSL before the announcement , has been added. That is Gort .

Group Schemes for the rest of us.

M

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by Muck
Longford is another town that Already Has Broadband as it happens.

M

I'm more and more confused here. Why would DCMNR bother shelling out cash in Longford and a bunch of other towns if they are already enabled? OK OK I know that is a silly question and its Friday but why??:(

bealtine

---

Originally posted by Muck
Only one County Galway town, not already provisioned or verifiably in the process of being provisioned for RADSL before the announcement , has been added. That is Gort .

---

I just printed out the map:

I see Loghrea and Oranmore in there too...

But the good news is that my lil ol' town is on the map (Eircom told me it would be a cold day in hell when they got around to it)
Now I just have to wait and see if anything actually happens:~P

spongebob

Originally posted by bealtine

I see Loghrea and Oranmore in there too...

But the good news is that my lil ol' town is on the map (Eircom told me it would be a cold day in hell when they got around to it)
Now I just have to wait and see if anything actually happens:~P

Loughrea and Oranmore are

"Galway Towns.... verifiably in the process of being provisioned for RADSL" as I said.

Loughrea being somewhat behind Oranmore which may already be live. Athenry should also be live. If you think that anybody would be brave enough to dig Loughrea up in order to install fibre then you have really disregarded the traffic problem. Once the N6 bypass is finished (in about 2 years) the whole of Loughrea will be dug up for a sewage pipe upgrade . If fibre is to be installed it will happen then, thats to say 2006 at the earliest. OTOH Eircom intend to install DSL there early next year.

Tuam Galway and Ballinasloe are live. As I said, the only additional town that will be done is Gort. Either Eircom or ESAT had done the rest or are doing them.



M

De Rebel

Please unconfuse me........

This sounds very welcome. But, I'm a tad confused. As I understand it, apart from the Group Broadband Schemes, this is not a proposal to deliver broad to individual subscribers. It is a proposal to put another truckload of fibre in the ground. So as well as the current 19 MANs, which are actually 19 fibre rings sitting in the ground doing nothing, this will deliver another 88 fibre rings that will sit in the ground doing nothing until (a) the MSE is up and running and doing the business and (b) there are local services of one sort or another (of which the GBS is a part) delivering last mile connectivity.

I'm not being critical of the announcement - just trying to be clear that this is a part of the solution, not the final answer. There are still outstanding components needed to complete the jigsaw - Those being the MSE and a comprehensive blueprint for last mile connectivity.

Or am I wrong.


And as a ps, I strongly echo Yoda's sentiment - well done to Xian in particular for banging this nail home so quickly and effectively.

Yoda

The Minister said on the radio this morning that there would be some fibre for some areas along with the wireless.

BArra

apparently my town has 1400 people... typical

has anyone got a link to the cork city DSL rollout from eircom anywhere?

cheers

bk

Originally posted by De Rebel

I'm not being critical of the announcement - just trying to be clear that this is a part of the solution, not the final answer. There are still outstanding components needed to complete the jigsaw - Those being the MSE and a comprehensive blueprint for last mile connectivity.

That is correct, this is only a part of the solution, but perhaps the most expensive part due to expense.

What we need for an effective national broadband infrastructure is:

1) Affordable national backhaul.

It should be possible for the MSE to negotiate with the likes of ESB and Auroa to purchase cheap backhaul, due to it's ability to aggregate demand.

2) MAN's around most town's and population areas.

Which is what we are getting now

3) An effective MSE

Hopefully the MSE will be announced in the next few weeks.

4) Last mile

I expect the 3.5Ghz licenses announced as few weeks ago will play a big part in this, but other technologies may also be possible.

It is also worth noting that given the wide dispersal of the MAN's across the country, it should be relatively easy to get point to point wireless backhaul from a MAN to all it's smaller neighbouring communities without a MAN. I expect this is planned as part of the GBS. It should be possible to cover almost 100% of the country with this.

This is an amazing event, it seems all the pieces needed to build an alternative national broadband infrastructure, completely free from Eircom, is quickly coming together.

Cork

I heard Dermot Ahern this morning on Radio 1's "Morning Ireland" - He has absolutely got the picture.

But Eircoms big asset is that people cannot switch from them without getting 2 bills.

I think the state has finally seen the need for broadband.

Ripwave

Originally posted by bk
4) Last mile

I expect the 3.5Ghz licenses announced as few weeks ago will play a big part in this, but other technologies may also be possible.

I wish I felt as confident. But if it's going to be limited to line of sight technology that requires the erection of an aerial on every customers roof, I think the 3.5GHz licenses will be (yet another) lost opportunity.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Cork
But Eircoms big asset is that people cannot switch from them without getting 2 bills.

As Eircom were supposed to allow CPS providers to provide single billing long before now (they even put your line rental charge up to pay for it), this will be a nice opportunity for Dermot to put his money where his mouth is!

Mr Ahern also intends to bring in tougher fines for telecommunications companies that breach the law with fines equal to 10% of total revenue envisaged

I'll believe it when I see it, but cynical old me expects an announcement just in time to scoop up the anti-eircom vote at the local elections in June, and then nothing happening after the votes are counted.

Ripwave

Originally posted by molinaalexis
According with the numbers obtained from
http://www.dcmnr.gov.ie/files/Dec-13A%20List%20only%20of%20Towns.doc
Longford have in 2002 7,557,

that would be Longford Town.

However in: http://www.cso.ie/census/pdfs/vol1_entire.pdf
Longford had in 1996 30,166 and in 2002 31,068

that would be County Longford.

Actually the CSO document says that 7557 is to total number of people living in all towns in Longford - is Longford the only town in Co Longford?

De Rebel

Originally posted by bk
4) Last mile

I expect the 3.5Ghz licenses announced as few weeks ago will play a big part in this, but other technologies may also be possible.

What I see as missing is a comprehensive plan for last mile. That continues to be the "woolliest" part of the equation.

Originally posted by bk

This is an amazing event, it seems all the pieces needed to build an alternative national broadband infrastructure, completely free from Eircom, is quickly coming together.

Agreed, and the eircom-independent aspect is very important if we are to see competition in the marketplace. That is where the regulator has singularly failed. It’s becoming clearer and clearer that Comreg should be abolished and its functions subsumed back into the Dept. of Comms.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Cork
I think the state has finally seen the need for broadband.

One could also argue that "the state" (or whatever you mean by that) still hasn't got a clue what broadband actually is. What this announcement proposes delivering is fibre and GDS. It does not propose to deliver Broadband. It once again delivers on part of the equation, but does not show any evidence of a comprehensive end to end solution. Typical Irish infrastructure mis-management is alive and well.

nahdoic

Seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution are two very different things.

We've know for some time that Dermot Aherne really does understand the problem. (unlike his worse than useless predecessor)

The lastmile is still a problem in rural and urban areas.

bealtine

---

Originally posted by De Rebel

Agreed, and the eircom-independent aspect is very important if we are to see competition in the marketplace. That is where the regulator has singularly failed. It’s becoming clearer and clearer that Comreg should be abolished and its functions subsumed back into the Dept. of Comms.

---

Hear hear

There is no doubt whatsoever that a bunch of more ineffectual lapdogs
has never been in this country...

Their job seems to be to pander to the telcos and stuff the consumer
at every turn.
Imagine a regulator that drops the paltry USO requirement from 2400 bd
to 0 bd...and can still dare to call itself a regulatory instrument.

What a bunch of "mé féiners" aka tossers

De Rebel

Originally posted by nahdoic
Seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution are two very different things.

We've know for some time that Dermot Aherne really does understand the problem. (unlike his worst than useless predecessor)

Can I infer from the above that you believe that Dermot Ahern sees the need but has failed to develop an effective solution ?

nahdoic

No. It means even with the best of intentions you can't snap your fingers and make the world a better place.

spongebob

Much of the missing link you mention is under Dermot Aherns DIRECT control.

Dermot does not seem to have ordered/persuaded the ESB and RTE and the Aviation Authority , all of whom come under his control as the sole shareholder, all of whom already control a large mast system and backhaul from those masts, to open access up to the GDS at a reasonable rate.

I would expect an announcement on that within the next month if the announcement today is to mean anything. It would prove that the policy was formulated in a joined up way. The list of towns issued today, allegedly 88 towns with no DSL/Cable , contains at least 10 towns that ALREADY have live DSL such as Dunshaughlin, Oranmore, Newbridge , Clane, Kinsale, Longford and others too. 10 out of 80 is a lot and calls into question the logic behind the formulation of the list such as

Did anybody bother to ring Eircom and ask them ?

Opening up access to masts under state control, where the public has alrbeady invested heavily in their provision over the years through their electricity bills and tv licences and plane tickets , to local GDS groups at a reasonable cost (given the footprint of an FWA system on a mast) is the essential step that Dermot Ahern must take to open up the last mile.

M

De Rebel

Originally posted by nahdoic
No. It means even with the best of intentions you can't snap your fingers and make the world a better place.

18 months in office is hardly a snap of the fingers.

Incidentally, I am not getting at Ahern, or DCMNR - they have actually achieved quite a lot in the last while. The problems are more to do with (a) Dept of Finance's excessive control (b) the overall inability of this (and most previous) government's ability to plan infrastructure development.

nahdoic

18 months in office is hardly a snap of the fingers

I never said it was. They have accomplised a lot in those 18 months.

De Rebel

Originally posted by nahdoic
I never said it was. They have accomplised a lot in those 18 months.

So what exactly is the point of your original post?

nahdoic

I think the state has finally seen the need for broadband. - Cork

Seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution are two very different things. - nahdoic

I was distinguishing the difference between seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution ... I'm afraid I can't state it any simplier for you De Rebel.

De Rebel

Originally posted by nahdoic
I think the state has finally seen the need for broadband. - Cork

Seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution are two very different things. - nahdoic

I was distinguishing the difference between seeing the need for broadband and developing an effective solution ... I'm afraid I can't state it any simplier for you De Rebel.

In other words, Dermot Ahern sees the need but has failed to develop an effective solution ? Is that it?

Gonzo

I dont think the Dunshaughlin exchange is fully live yet, many people here are capable of getting it altho its not ready to order and does not show up as activated on eircoms website