Legal advice need: ex employer claiming money

LegacyUser

Hi,

Not sure this is the right place to post this but I didn't see a legal thread.

My problem is the following:

8 months after resigning from my job, I have received a letter from my ex employer saying I owe them some money for salary overpayment (about 700€).
I checked my last pay slip but It seems to me it had already been deduced. There letter is not very explanatory so I don't have a clue what this money could be.
Now I have received a letter from their solicitor making the same claim and full of legal mumbo jumbo (stubbs gazette, sheriff? wasn't even aware they were some sheriff in Ireland).

I remember getting the same kind of letter for my ex housemate that worked for the same company, but he had already left the country by the time he received the first letter.

What should I do? play dead? contact my ex employer ?
Can they really ask for money 8 month later?

I really think I don't owe them anything but knowing the payroll, they could very well tell me about overpayment for pension or some tax and I wouldn't be able to say if this is justified or not.

hussey

As far as I know you if they did over pay you, they can only ask for the money
as far as I know don't have to give it back

but if you didn't actually get the 700 in the first place, then contact your ex employer/solicitor .. just tell them the payslip you have says you were never paid it in the first place, I'm sure its a silly mistake

TwoShedsJackson

Go to a solicitor yourself and get them to check the letter plus your last pay slip - seems very unlikely that you would not be asked for the money until eight months later unless they're dodgy and it's a scam of some sort.

Victor

Insist on having 8 months to pay it back if you have to pay it back, it was their negligence after all. Charge them for any accounting / legal advice you need.

Also you could put forward the argument that any amount paid was as settlement for the end of contract.

seamus

If I transferred €700 into your account, or handed you €700 cash, as far as I can see, the best I can do is ask for it back. If there is no prior credit agreement, and I give the money to you, then it becomes yours, possession being 9/10 of the law and all that (or does that only apply to certain things?).

Maybe check your employment contract (if you still have it). It may, if you're unlucky, state something about an obligation to repay/work back overpaid holiday hours, or an obligation of good faith as regards payment.

Other than that, I don't see how they can 'demand' it from you, since you didn't obtain it through fraudulent behaviour, rather through their own negligence.

Sleipnir

I like the Stubbs Gazette bit. That's normally reserved for companies with bad debts, not usually individuals.
That's for unpaid debts, this is not an unpaid debt, they simply overpaid you (at least, that's what they're claiming)
Plus, they can't just put your name in it, there would have to be a county court judgement against you first.
Contact your employers and find out exactly what this €700 was for.

uberwolf

there are indeed sheriffs in this fair land of ours. But the rest sounds like horsesh*t. They'd be doing well to prove this unless its explicity mentioned in ur former contract. And as your final payment probably constituted an end to that contract your in an interesting position.
But none of us are solicitors. contact ur former employers. Ask them to explain the situation properly. Demonstrate that none of your payslips/bank acounts tally with their claim(and fit with ur agreed pay and overtime). Subsequently to this if they respond, inform them that as this was their error that you should not lose out as a consequence of dealing with it properly and that ur costs in sorting it will be expected. Then contact your solicitor with copies of all ur correspondence with them. Good luck

yossarin

get talking to them anyway.

If you ignore them they'll just sell you to a debt collector.

Hobbes

They could of just gotten thier solictor to do a form letter to you as a scare tactic to get you to pay.

I wouldn't talk to them at all. Talk to a solictor.

LegacyUser

here what I got from my ex employer

============================

Dated mid september

Dear XXX,
XXX XXXXXX Ltd's records show that your employment with XXX terminated on XXrd February 2003. We note that there is money owed by you to XXX from this time.The breakdown of the monies which you owe XXX is outlined below:

Salary Overpayment: Amount

Salary overpayment due to processing of leaver details AFTER €xxx.xx
Salary cut-off date in month of leaving
Total amount now outstanding €xxx.xx
We kindly ask that the monies owing be sent in the form of a cheque made payable to:
XXX XXXXXX Ltd.
Please send cheque to HR Services Support at:
XXX XXXXXX

Full reimbursement of these monies is required within 21 days of today's date. Please note that xxx
reserves the right to pursue its rights at law should this repayment not occur within the specified time
period.

============================

And this from their solicitor

MATTER: XXX XXXXXX Ltd-v-YOU
Debt:€xxx.xx

We act for the above named and we have been instructed in respect of the above outstanding
account, which is due by you to our client. We understand that you have full particulars of
the amount outstanding and that to date the amount has not been paid.
The purpose of this letter is to advise that unless you furnish us with payment of the above
sum by return of post, our client has instructed us to issue legal proceedings with a view to
securing Judgement. Once judgement has issued same shall be placed in Stubbs Gazette and
the matter may then be placed in the hands of the sheriff for seizure.
We trust that you are aware of the implications of this action and would therefore urge you to
contact us with your settlement proposals immediately

============================

LegacyUser

oups... forgot to remove my name... if a mod could make the change it will be highly appreciated

laoisfan

hi

the same thing happened to me. i worked for a software company for a period of 6-months. at the end of the 6-month placement period i returned to finish my final year in college.

about 2-months back into college i received an email from one of the guys in payroll from this company stating that i had been overpaid by something like 600-euro (roughly).

i replied back to them saying that i had checked my payslips for the 6-months and that it was not stated on any of them.

anyhow, theres more ....

when i completed my final year in college, i was fortunate to receive an offer of employment from the same company to be taken on full-time. i accepted and started back in full-time employment with them.

about a month after i had returned to the company i had the same guy breathing down my neck about the money. he said he would take it out of my salary over 3 months. i told him if he did i would take action against him.

anyway, to cut a long story short, this continued for about 6-months after i returned to the company. in the end, my manager basically told him (with me present) that i did not have to return the money (even if i did receive it by mistake). he stated that it was payrolls mistake in the first place, and that i did not intentionally steal it.

i would seek some advice either through a solicitor or maybe the Citizans Advice Bureau or maybe through your current place of employment. ask your own payroll department where the line is and on which side you currently stand!!

hope it works for you!!

UP LAOIS!!!

LegacyUser

What is the Citizens Advice Bureau?

I am not employed a the moment and I am afraid going to a solicitor might cost me more than then actually claim.

Victor

http://www.comhairle.ie/ should have information.

scotty_xml

you should contact the revenue, they will be able to give you advices
http://www.revenue.ie

Paddy20

We in the wonderful Irish Republic. Do not have any 'Citizens Advice Bureaux' as such. However, we do have a large number of Free - Citizens Information Centres [CIC's].

Have a look at www.oasis.gov.ie
and take it from there. Or you can call the *Citizens Information (Call centre) on:- 1890-777-121, 9.00am - 9-00pm.

Good luck.

P.;) :ninja:

Sposs

Hi John,

You can edit your name , just click on the navy coloured edit link underneath your post.

I wouldn't worry about it to much its not your fault and the letter is balant scare tactic , remember when Bank Of Ireland i think sent 300k to the wrong account they had to beg for it back as the man they mistakenly sent it to didnt have to give it back,by right.

Just sit tight and they'll eventually give up chasing you for the money.

Victor

Originally posted by Sposs
You can edit your name , just click on the navy coloured edit link underneath your post.

I don't think guest accounts can be edited by users.

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by John621
I am not employed a the moment and I am afraid going to a solicitor might cost me more than then actually claim.

As Victor implied earlier its not your fault even if they overpayed you (unless you left ealry in breach of yor contract or something that you would be well aware of). And you definitely should not have to spend any money to prove they did not overpay you!

The solicitors letter is a joke. It's a standard version sent to trade debtors and is inappropriate in the case of an employment contract. Its designed to initmidate people. Don't let it get to you.

The fact that the same thing happened to a fellow employee really rings alarm bells - sounds like their pay roll system is in a real mess.

Don't waste your time talking to the solicitors. If you want to react at all write to the company saying you do not believe you have been overpaid and you have no intention of considering the matter further unless they explain what they did wrong and unless they provide you with clear calculations explaining the overpayment in the context of your overall wages through the entire period of your employment.

For advice you could also talk to someone in the employment rights section of the Department of Enterprise and Employment . http://www.entemp.ie

Victor

Originally posted by Sposs
I wouldn't worry about it to much its not your fault and the letter is balant scare tactic , remember when Bank Of Ireland i think sent 300k to the wrong account they had to beg for it back as the man they mistakenly sent it to didnt have to give it back,by right.

No, he eventually had to give it back when BOI sued him in a Spanish court. The difference is between knowing whether the payer has made a real mistake or not, noticeable when you get 100 times what you were expecting, not necessarily noticeable with €700.

Nevyn

I had simular issues with an former payroll dept.
and they tried to with hold my P45 after they messed up my leaving mnth wages. they over paid me for holidays that i was due apprently but never informed me until 3 mnths later when I rang looking for my p45 which they had no right to withhold.

they refushed to deal with the matter until I said that i'd report them to the revenue commisionar.

they messed up thier loss , you were given you last wages in good faith and to come looking 8 mnths later
is silly .

LegacyUser

I have a relation who was technically over paid by believe it or not a government payroll for a four year period.
My relation was unaware of this overpayment and has since left that employment and unfortunately is very ill at the moment, indeed the outlook in her situation is not good.

She has been receiving letters demanding the return of thousands of Euro's over the last year from that government department, money on which she has paid tax and prsi.
The mistake was made in their payroll department and aparently only came to light in the last year or so.

It's a crazy situation.

In the present circumstances, obviously there has been no contact between her and her former place of employment and in my opinion they can sing for it, she worked hard enough for them all her life.
To the best of my knowledge the income she received wasn't a huge amount and her estate when she dies will be nil .
She is currently living on a contributary old age pension and doesn't own her house but has a right to live there untill she dies.

The people sending the increasingly more snotty letters *are* aware of her age but not of her medical condition.

I'm inclined to think that it was their mistake, and they can sing for it! plus I do know that as far as she was aware, the amount she was being paid was what she was supposed to be paid.

ur mentor

I had a similar situation once. however it turned out the company was correct. It had to do with being paid monthly. I started in middle of month and they paid me at end of first month for a full month. Otherwise I would ahve had to wait 6 weeks or so to get any money. There was a note in contract indicating if this happened it would be recovered at end of employment. In any event i left and got final months salary- no deduction. In due course it came to light.
It was properly explained to me showing dates etc and when it was adjusted for tax etc it turned out to be a small amount which 'i repaid over time- 3 months I think.

In your case its amazing how they went straight to heavy stuff- most cos try to explain stuff first. Be careful though because if it was in initial contract (in fine print) you will be found liable as you agreed to it and then you may have to pay cos legal costs also. Could prove very expensive then.

seamus

Originally posted by same_thing
In the present circumstances, obviously there has been no contact between her and her former place of employment and in my opinion they can sing for it, she worked hard enough for them all her life.
To the best of my knowledge the income she received wasn't a huge amount and her estate when she dies will be nil .
She is currently living on a contributary old age pension and doesn't own her house but has a right to live there untill she dies.

Afaik, she can nominate someone to act on her behalf, ie go have a chat with the previous employers, explain the situation, and tell them to f*ck off.
If brought before any court, no judge would take away her home or a significant amount of pension (that's if she's liable at all). At worst, the judge would order the paying of a minscule amount (<€1) per week. Basically, the State won't oblige anyone to repay anything, if it means leaving them up **** creek. If what's she's living on at the moment, is just about enough to maintain a reasonable standard of living, then the State may decide that her previous employers will just have to wait until she dies, to carve up what's left of her estate. If there's nothing left, they can go jump.

Probably best to have someone else (Son, Daughter, brother, sister) go to a solicitor and find out the position on it. If she's not well, then the best approach is to have someone else deal with her affairs.

Talliesin

Originally posted by John621
And this from their solicitor

MATTER: XXX XXXXXX Ltd-v-YOU
Debt:€xxx.xx

We act for the above named and we have been instructed in respect of the above outstanding
account, which is due by you to our client. We understand that you have full particulars of
the amount outstanding and that to date the amount has not been paid.
The purpose of this letter is to advise that unless you furnish us with payment of the above
sum by return of post, our client has instructed us to issue legal proceedings with a view to
securing Judgement. Once judgement has issued same shall be placed in Stubbs Gazette and
the matter may then be placed in the hands of the sheriff for seizure.
We trust that you are aware of the implications of this action and would therefore urge you to
contact us with your settlement proposals immediately

Translated from legalese into English this is:

"Our client says you owe them money. We don't give a monkey's either way; this letter costs them at least €30 whatever happens."

Anyway, I'm not adding anything to the thread in saying this, but:

1. If you know you owe the money pay it
2. Otherwise talk to a lawyer
3. If lawyer sounds too expensive go to a Citizens Advice Beaureau or Free Legal Advice Centre

shoegirl

John, I would advise you to take the letter to your Citizens Advice Centre and to locate your original contract. Without your original contract you will find it difficult to clarify the entire issue.

There are a few very insidious companies in Ireland (one employs over 2000 people in Dublin and is a household name) who do all or some of the following:

1. Charge employees for "training." One US multinational in north Dublin paying barely a minimum wage stipulates in its contracts that if the employee leaves within a certain time they must pay for training - about the equivalent of 2 weeks wages to a very low paid employee. Worse still, if the employee is promoted to a different department in the same company, they demand that the employees new department pay the original training costs!

2. Mess up initial months wages and "forget" at the end of the employees stay. Then come back looking for money.

There are other legal but nonetheless problematic reasons for owing back money:

- if you receive a relocation payment but then leave within a stipulated time (usually one year) it must be deducted from the salary

- if your company doesn't automatically deduct PRSI sickness benefit from your salary and you are expected to claim and then provide evidence of your claim, they may come back at a later stage

- if you receive a loan from your employer, for example, for season tickets (more usually in the commuter culture in the UK than car obsessed Ireland)

- if you are sent on a training course or receive college fees and then leave within a stipulated length of time (usually up to 5 years) the employer can demand back the fees paid

The worst thing about this is I know of at least two large IDA funded companies that indulge of the worst practices above - especially the insidious "training" fee. (Call centres, with their high turnovers and hiring/training costs, are notorious for these practices).

I would recommend that you get in touch with a solicitor immediately and fight the case. I would also contact your local TD and make him aware that a company that is very likely to be state funded in indulging in questionable practices like this.

LegacyUser

Well you are spot on shoegirl I must say, I was working in one of those big IT call centre, but I stayed there for more than 2 years so according to my contract this can't be relocation package or trainning.

I had a good thought about it and the only thing I can think of is orders that were shipped and deliverred, meaning I got comissions on them but were sent back after I left.

Anyway I am trying to find my contract at the moment, it must be somewhere with a ton of other "important papers".

shoegirl

Hmm sounds like a certain call centre I worked in a few years ago. Shall we say a very respectable large company on de southside. Even when I worked there sharp HR practices were being practiced, though I was thinking of two other northside based multinationals.

I'm not sure on what basis your commision was based, but if the order was returned it would have been on customer service grounds (if we are talking about the same company I recall a 30-day returns policy), however, this should have been charged back to manufacturing or support, not Sales.

have a nice day!

smiles

name removed. good luck.

<< Fio >>

LegacyUser

Shoegirl I will give you some hints:

[edit]Deleted for obvious reasons[/edit]

B

Victor

Originally posted by shoegirl
1. Charge employees for "training." One US multinational in north Dublin paying barely a minimum wage stipulates in its contracts that if the employee leaves within a certain time they must pay for training - about the equivalent of 2 weeks wages to a very low paid employee.

This is probably fair enough where the employee quits - but not if they are fired or made redundant or are not kept on after their probationary period.

Originally posted by shoegirl
2. Mess up initial months wages and "forget" at the end of the employees stay. Then come back looking for money.

My first real job (was paid fro 2 weeks holidays during 3.5 months work) did this, so accounts just fudged my hours, but then wouldn't pay my expenses and overtime, which was fair enough, but they (a) shouldn't have paid full salary if I was away on holidays (b) shouldn't have fudged my hours.

Originally posted by shoegirl
Worse still, if the employee is promoted to a different department in the same company, they demand that the employees new department pay the original training costs!

Fair enough, but this shouldn't in any way affect the employee.

Originally posted by shoegirl
- if you receive a relocation payment but then leave within a stipulated time (usually one year) it must be deducted from the salary

Fair enough.

Originally posted by shoegirl
- if your company doesn't automatically deduct PRSI sickness benefit from your salary and you are expected to claim and then provide evidence of your claim, they may come back at a later stage

They are obliged to deduct tax, PRSI, HL & BIK. If they mess it up you have to repay to the revenue, not the ex-employer. If they get hassle from the revenue, it is the employer's problem not the employee's

Originally posted by shoegirl
- if you receive a loan from your employer, for example, for season tickets (more usually in the commuter culture in the UK than car obsessed Ireland)

The Revenue Commissioners specifically prohibit cash salary / wages being exchanged for season ticket and vice versa (the revenue allow monthly tickets, but obviously 12 x monthly are more expensive than 1 x annual). But again if you are given a one-year ticket by your employer it is down to your contract to determine how it is handled if you leave. Any employee should insist that such things are paid up front out of annual bonuses or pay increases, not deducted month into the future.

Originally posted by shoegirl
- if you are sent on a training course or receive college fees and then leave within a stipulated length of time (usually up to 5 years) the employer can demand back the fees paid

The way to manage this is pay tax free exam bonuses – not fees.

shoegirl

Ah, yes, I've worked for that particularly nasty outfit, John621. I can tell you they were already indulging in sharp HR practices when literally walked out of the office and never came back about 2 years ago.

But I haven't heard of them doing anything like this. As you will probably remember from working there, they have a large legal legal department, so I'd get straight onto Citizens Advice, they are a very dirty outfit indeed, so I'd think twice about ignoring the problem. Your main problem is that they seem to have created a non existent credit agreement, so you need legal advice there.

If somebody made a return under the 30 day rule and so got their money back you should have been informed at the time. Also get onto HR and demand a full itemisation for why you owe them money. As they are not acting under any credit agreement they don't have an automatic right to claim back money you didn't borrow.

I had no problem when i left, but then again I simply got so angry and frustrated I simply walked out and didn't come back!

Nevyn

Snap shoegirl Snap.

I reported back after exteneded materinty leave to find that my job was filled and I had to report to a manger who knew nothing about me or what to do with me at all Or where to put me. :rolleyes: and then pitched a fit when I could not stay back 3 hours late at ten minutes notice.


of late they have moved thier main HR offices and interactions to the UK , screwy I know and this has been the cuase of a lot of grief for friends of mine to still work for Big Blue meanie. Could be that they are working off UK and not Irish cos well that would have have been the first time.

sceptre

[hints dropped]

DaithiSurfer

The very same thing happened to me but the amount was €1100.
I got the solicitors letter too.
Here's what i did.
I added up every hour that i stayed late after my 7.5 hours. Every saturday i came in that i wasnt paid for and then made up a few more.
I filled in the dates on a spreadsheet and then put an hourly rate of €30.
When all added up i ended up presenting them with the same letter they sent me except reversed (even a shpeel about sending them a solicitors letter if they didnt pay up) with a demand for about €3000 that they hadnt paid me for.

I never heard from them again and that was over 2 years ago.
I think its the same company from your hints. So make your bill up and send it to them.

By the way, when your contract says that you may have to work extra hours if needed this does not count. Its not allowed (i checked with a solicitor before i id this). So many holes in that i dont know where to start.

These are just some of the reasons i can think of off the top pf my head. They may not be entirely correct but they are ballpark from memory anyway.



1. How many hours are extra hours before you are being abused.
2. If they out a number of hours per day or week in your contract then that and only that is the amount you have to work.
3. Extra hours as far as you know means 2 hours a week. Nobody told you otherwise.
4. They can abuse employees like this when they are an employee and are afraid of losing their job if they dont do it. This is intimidation.

shoegirl

This is all sounding quite horrible. I believe that at least 2 other companies in the Dublin area are using similar practices. Anyone experiencing this should complain to their TDs - especially the PD luuvies who suck up to all these companies.

Not all multinationals either, one of the companies is Irish.

Beruthiel

People, I would appreciate if you would all refrain from mentioning which company this thread relates to, this includes ‘hints’ you think no one else is getting :rolleyes:

unless of course, you want boards shut down or having nasty letters sent to them

Think before you post damnit!!

B

Lenny

Just noticeed this now,
why the hell is it in PI?
its work related