Ah to be British

Highnoon

Not sure if it's the English boarding schools or what but I recently met two English girls over the space of six months. They were both nice people but I found that on occassion they would lump me in with their chats about being British comparing US to the rest of the world. Not wishing to make a big deal of it I pretended not to cop on to what they had said (both had remarkably similar things to say) and replied "yeah I know what you mean I think the IRISH are probably the same" or whatever I can't remember now. Judging by the faint glimmer in their reactions they may have realised. I suppose I shoould have tried to get to the bottom of this failure of theirs to grasp recent changes in History (well maybe not that recent).

Anywho I was then reading the most recent edition of Empire (ROTK cover) and I was struck by this Irish are actually British view alot (well three that I know of) of them still have of Irelands place in the world.
1. In America. The review went on to say that the two Bolger sisters were (and I'm paraphrasing too lazy to grab the mag) two amazing British talents.
2. Alan Partridge the best British comedy since Father Ted.

I sent an email to the editor of Empire and almost found myself apologising for 'nit picking'. I doubt if I'll get a reply. I know this is nothing new the legendary Bob Geldof story if I remember correctly when was it Thatcher? said he was a great English man or something. My god the old memory banks are going. I always thought it was just the English government trying to grab some glory but when I met those girls both in their early twenties I was shocked at how clueless they seemed.

What do the rest of you guys think?

zAbbo

Father Ted is a British comedy.

Dunno who these Bolger sisters are

Sparks

The english people I know do tend to have a blind spot in that area, but then most of the Irish people I know tend towards xenophobia at times.

Mind you, I still get a kick out of stories like Samuel Jackson's interview on Sky (though it's possibly an urban legend ). He was being interviewed by some blonde bimbo of a presenter about his latest film, SWAT, which also stars Colin Farrell, the well-known Dublin actor...

Bimbo: What was it like working with Colin?, cos he is just so hot in the U.K. right now

Jackson: he's pretty hot in the U.S. too

Bimbo: Yeah, but he is one of our own

Jackson: Isn't he from Ireland?

Bimbo: Yeah, but we can claim him cos Ireland is beside us

Jackson: You see that's your problem right there. You British keep claiming people that don't belong to you. We had that problem here in America too, it was called slavery.

luckat

It's a question of brand recognition. We haven't yet successfully rebranded Ireland. Get to it!

Highnoon

The Bolger sisters are the two girls in Jim Sheridans 'In America". they were recently on Pat Kenny along with the actors that played their mother and father. They are real life sisters and had Irish accents. I really should look up their place of birth next before somebody comes back and tells me 'err actually they may have the accents but they were born in London!".

Father Ted is British? mmm well that must only be by virtue of being funded by British money? A rather important virtue granted but I didn't see any English actors in the show. The vast majoirty of the talent was Irish or wasn't it. I do remember RTE rejecting the show (more fool them) and being picked up by Channel 4. I hardly think this is enough to call the show British (though I do accept the fact that without this hand up it may never have seen the light).

Never heard the Samuel L Jackson story may have a loosy on the net to see what comes up.

mike65

As the boards resident, prolific Brit I'll just add they always do that sort of thing, I remember a Channel 4 commentator of the Tour de France deperately trying to inject some "local" interest into the coverage as the British riders limped out by saying the Paul Kimmage and
Stephen Roache (I think) were the last english speaking riders left in the race!

The Irish are'nt much better though with anyone thats got an Irish great aunt 3 times removed "one of our own". Marian Finucane gave a classic example of this
on her show last week having interviewed Barbara
Cassini the ex head of GO airline she added completely needlessly after an ad-break that she had some Irish blood (not to mention some Italian...)

Danial Day-Lewis is claimed as Irish for some reason...
Fiction - www.dd-l.net/

Fact - http://www.thespiannet.com/actors/D/daylewis_daniel/index.shtml

Mike.

sceptre

Originally posted by Highnoon
I do remember RTE rejecting the show

No you don't

Highnoon

London, England eh? Aw crap. Don't suppose you'd be willing to swap him for Pat Kenny? I tell you what I'll even throw in Michael Flatley how about that. Can't say fairer than that. What do you mean Mikey boys not Oirish. The very cheek! Tell you what you can have him anyway and Mr Keaton if you're interested?:)

sceptre

Originally posted by mike65
Danial Day-Lewis is claimed as Irish for some reason...

He's had an irish passport since 1993.

Which makes him as Irish as Monica Seles is American:)

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Highnoon
I didn't see any English actors in the show.

I don't believe it

Ah the old days when sports persons from the north were British while wining and Irish when loosing ...

Highnoon

Ok smarty pants maybe I don't remember, hell maybe it never actually happened but I could have sworn I HEARD something along those lines. Rather than say 'No you don't' how about something a little more constructive.

sceptre

Originally posted by Highnoon
Rather than say 'No you don't' how about something a little more constructive.

Here's the story in its entirety so:
They weren't offered it. Hence they didn't reject it.

mike65

Originally posted by sceptre
He's had an irish passport since 1993.

Which makes him as Irish as Monica Seles is American:)

It also makes him a "nationality whore", just cos they give you a passport, etc! I belive Day-Lewis suddenly felt the urge to become Irish when making My Left Foot. He may have heard about the artistes avoid tax scam around that time...;)

Mike.

Capt'n Midnight

Nah - the "Artists" don't have to be Irish - just live here and it's been going on for ages - AFAIR Dire Straits could only spend 30 days in the UK the year they released Brothers in Arms...

mike65

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Nah - the "Artists" don't have to be Irish - just live here and it's been going on for ages - AFAIR Dire Straits could only spend 30 days in the UK the year they released Brothers in Arms...

I think that was due to the NMEs review! :ninja:

Mike.

Sand

Were as guilty of "claiming" people. Personally, I get a bit embarrassed at the lengths people will go to to claim someone as Irish or Irish-ish. Whilst our football team has benefitted from such loose interpretations its a bit of a stretch to start buttering up say Kennedy as somehow connected to Ireland when his first (only?) visit to the country afaik was a diplomatic visit.

And you cant blame the British for being mistaken in the belief were British - look at what soaps we watch, what papers we read, what music we listen to ( trad aint half as popular as it used to be unless its fields of Athenry etc etc ), what football teams we support. Were no less British than the Scots.

sceptre

Originally posted by Sand
Were no less British than the Scots.

... except that, unlike the Scots, we don't live in "Britain":)

I certainly agree that we're as bad as anyone else for looking for any connection to make people part of our own collective. We (as in the irish) don't tend to claim people as Irish merely because they're from the island next door though. <sarcasm on>They have to have appeared in at least one Jim Sheridan movie first. Or have bought a holiday home in Tyrone. Or have been sent a blow up shamrock in the post or have a surname that sounds a bit Irishy (or have a first name that's also an irish surname)<sarcasm off>

Capt'n Midnight

I love it when dem up north claim to be British ...

"Oi - you live in a country called The United Kingdom of Great Britan and Northern Ireland - go take geography lessors ..."

Also the thing that gets me is when British and English are used interchangably. They are quite different.

Ichiro

First things First
Sparks great post !

I think it all boils down to Education.
I have the Pleasure of living in England at the Mo,
And seriously they have'nt a clue!

Your English are'nt you? Get That all the time.
They have no Idea about the Republic and Our Seperation of 1922 History etc
Lazy! t Busy watching Corrie and EastEnders- Wasters
You were right to send that E-mail to Empire tell them to Shag off.

Think of Delroy Lindo
Originally born in London spent about 4 years there which he says were hell
and famliy ups and moves to America and see's himself as American
as soon as he makes it over there the english media
start Jumping around saying he's English even though he does'nt remember much

They are lacking home grown Talent of an A class stature and need to steal ours.

WELL they can *%!k OFF
Had enough of that SH?&E

Redleslie

Originally posted by mike65
It also makes him a "nationality whore", just cos they give you a passport, etc! I belive Day-Lewis suddenly felt the urge to become Irish when making My Left Foot. He may have heard about the artistes avoid tax scam around that time...;)

Mike.

Daniel's father was Irish so he's entitled to Irish citizenship. The man is unslaggable so shut it.

simu

I spent a year in France and this sort of thing happened very often.

Used to annoy me so much, I perfected the art of giving long, ranty speeches on Irish history and identity in French.

And, yes, most British people don't know much about Irish history - I remember meeting a future lawyer who though we also had sterling as our currency!

DadaKopf

Maybe the reason people think we're British is because we look and behave like them. It's not surprising since we must appear to outsiders more like a province of the UK than a distinctly separate country.

We're all guilty of being blind to subtle but vitally important differences in other cultures so we shouldn't be surprised about people's misunderstandings about us. We're guilty of it ourselves; in an effort to construct a national identity separate from our previous British overlords, we diminished the deep complexity of our real cultural identity - which included the innovation and creativity of the Protestant classes.

So, there's the Americans (who are just dumb about anything outside their own state) and there's Britain who, repeating its colonial habits of greed and plunder, are naturally claiming anything that has even the faintest whiff of Britishness because they're unconsciously claiming their stake on the remnants of lost empire.

The French are doing the same.

So here's a practical tip: the next time you're talking to a (real) Brit or American or Frog, you tell them how great you think it is that Chris Tarrant, George Bush and Johnny Halliday are patriotic Irishmen and see how they react. Because, in this new "totally amazing globalized world", everything's for sale!

Ping Chow Chi

Think of Delroy Lindo
Originally born in London spent about 4 years there which he says were hell
as soon as he makes it over there the english media
start Jumping around saying he's English even though he does'nt remember much

and from the very next post ....

Daniel's father was Irish so he's entitled to Irish citizenship. The man is unslaggable so shut it.

see - its just not the english, ALL countries do the same

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

mike65

Originally posted by simu


And, yes, most British people don't know much about Irish history - I remember meeting a future lawyer who though we also had sterling as our currency!

Thats true after a fashion, until 1979 Sterling was legal tender in this country as the two currencies were tied
since independance, then in 1979 REp of Ireland joined the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) while the UK did'nt.

My mum told me of an occassion back around that time of standing in Ulster bank waiting when an Amercian at the hatch piped-up "Geee, I thought all your banknotes were printed in Britain!"

Mike.

simu

Thats true after a fashion, until 1979 Sterling was legal tender in this country as the two currencies were tied since independance, then in 1979 REp of Ireland joined the Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM) while the UK did'nt.

I know but this was in 2002!

Twas but an example - English ppl also assume we sit exams like A-levels though and that Irish is a dialect of English!

DadaKopf

Well, Irish *was* kind of invented by Protestants.

sovtek

Originally posted by DadaKopf
So, there's the Americans (who are just dumb about anything outside their own state)

HEY! :eek:

and there's Britain who, repeating its colonial habits of greed and plunder, are naturally claiming anything that has even the faintest whiff of Britishness because they're unconsciously claiming their stake on the remnants of lost empire.

IIRC...wasn't Bono one of the "100 Greatest Britons" a while back on the BBC? :rolleyes:

simu

Well, Irish *was* kind of invented by Protestants.

Oh yeah, those ancient celtic Protestants who managed to fool future historians into believing they were pagans, forgot about them!:)

Redleslie

Originally posted by Ping Chow Chi


see - its just not the english, ALL countries do the same

What? Under Irish law, Daniel Day Lewis is Irish because his father was Irish. He's not a "nationality whore" as some ignoramous put it, and afaik, as he's an actor, rather than a painter, musician, writer or sculptor, he's not exempt from paying tax either. He exercised his legal right as anyone with half a brain would do.

Capt'n Midnight

Ah for a T shirt in the local language that says
I'm not American or British

I remember a tech support call many years ago from someone who sounded like english wasn't his first language (asian) and he had a query I couldn't help him with (can't remember I think it was a sales issue) but yer man got very upset and started screaming into the phone that he "was an Englishman" etc... Anyone vaguely aquinted with Anglo-Irish history would have realised this is not the best way to coax favors from someone with an Irish accent..
Had to bite my tongue to stop a rant about how "oh yeah you're one of those ba$tards who've subjected us to 900 years of oppression "

gurramok

Originally posted by Sand
Were as guilty of "claiming" people. Personally, I get a bit embarrassed at the lengths people will go to to claim someone as Irish or Irish-ish. Whilst our football team has benefitted from such loose interpretations its a bit of a stretch to start buttering up say Kennedy as somehow connected to Ireland when his first (only?) visit to the country afaik was a diplomatic visit.

And you cant blame the British for being mistaken in the belief were British - look at what soaps we watch, what papers we read, what music we listen to ( trad aint half as popular as it used to be unless its fields of Athenry etc etc ), what football teams we support. Were no less British than the Scots.

Your getting mixed up between cuture and ethinicity.
We like british culture as you explained, but we also like traits of american culture - those holywood movies, mcdonalds etc, it dont make us american as the americans themselves.
If we drink Heineken in the pub, that dont mean we are dutch as the dutch themselves but like that aspect of their culture.
English soccer teams are followed the world over with fanaticalism, that dont mean a diehard fan in Malaysia is british

On the point of Kennedy, he had ethnic Irish background. It dont mean he's(was) entitled to an Irish passport but one of those irish -americans who are proud of their irish heritage(culture) even though they might not have ever visited the country before

Originally posted by sceptre
He's had an irish passport since 1993.

Which makes him as Irish as Monica Seles is American

He has an irish parent which entitles him to an irish passport.
Monica Seles emigrated from Serbia to USA for financial/war reasons so she could have a better life without having any relatives in USA to vouch for.

I myself was born in England of ethnic Irish parents with Irish accents and we moved back to ireland when i was 3.
I'm no 'nationality whore' as someone indicated earlier, in fact if you heard my accent, its as irish as yours might be

love it when dem up north claim to be British ...

"Oi - you live in a country called The United Kingdom of Great Britan and Northern Ireland - go take geography lessors ..."

If you would call a loyalist an irish person as some people would do in the south, you would not get very far and would have to do a runner

mike65

Originally posted by gurramok

I myself was born in England of ethnic Irish parents with Irish accents and we moved back to ireland when i was 3.
I'm no 'nationality whore' as someone indicated earlier, in fact if you heard my accent, its as irish as yours might be

That was me! As you were only 3 I can't accuse you of having made a conscious decision on the matter...

Mike.

Venom

Originally posted by Highnoon
Father Ted is British? mmm well that must only be by virtue of being funded by British money? A rather important virtue granted but I didn't see any English actors in the show. The vast majoirty of the talent was Irish or wasn't it. I do remember RTE rejecting the show (more fool them) and being picked up by Channel 4. I hardly think this is enough to call the show British (though I do accept the fact that without this hand up it may never have seen the light).

Father Ted was a British TV show as it was made by a British TV company. Father Ted stared Irish actors.

Tigerland was an American war starring an Irish actor.

Gangs of New York was an American movie staring an Irish actor.

I dont see folks giving out over how the last two examples are discribed.

Victor

Seeing as most IRA members live in the UK, should the organisation be renamed the UKRA or should that acronym only be used when in Britain?

BarryFry

I don't know if I can stop choking on the clouds of self-righteousness that are emanating from this thread.

The truth is that Irish people are totally happy to be "British" when it suits them.

I've lost count at the number of Irish people in my home town of Peterborough who have moaned about the Pakistanis who have moved here.

When I point out to these Irish people that they are immigrants too, I always get the same reply: "Well, yeah. But not like them!".

To which, I resist several obvious temptations, and keep my reply considerate.

I even had one Irish guy tell me how all the "Asians" were "taking us over".

US!!!!!!

That one had me chuckling for a whole week......

Redleslie

Originally posted by Venom
Father Ted was a British TV show as it was made by a British TV company. Father Ted stared Irish actors.

Tigerland was an American war starring an Irish actor.

Gangs of New York was an American movie staring an Irish actor.

I dont see folks giving out over how the last two examples are discribed.

Uh, Father Ted was created and written by 2 Irish guys. It was set in Ireland and the theme tune was written by an Irishman. Only 1 actor was not Irish (Clare Grogan) and I think I read an interview with Arthur Mathews where he said most, if not all, of the production crew were Irish, but I can't be bothered chucking on a video to check that because like, who cares? Some might claim that it's the most unBritish sitcom ever, but nah it must be British, 100%, since a British company commissioned it. Similarly, Roddy Doyle's books are not Irish because they're published by Penguin. :rolleyes:

Highnoon

Phew lads just finished catching up on the posts. Venom I was about to reply to your post but Redleslie got in there first and answered rather nicely. Yes I do admit that we (well really I should only speak for myself) are sometimes guilty of hypocritical standards now that we are receiving all these people from all over. It'll be interesting to see what happens in years to come when we have (we already have but more numerous) other skin colours with Irish accents.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Paddyo

I remember a story told by a friend of mine who was visiting the States on business. He was out for a few drinks with some Americans when they said something about him being from Britain or England. He pointed out to them that he was from Ireland. They said that it was really all the same thing - until he started calling them Canadian!!!

Some one else. earlier in the thread, said that we need better PR for Ireland. I think this poster might be correct. The same person as above was again on business in the states- talking at a function to a well educated American girl. She asked where he was from and he said Ireland - she asked how he travelled to the states - by road or by plane - him being a quick thinker told her that he had travelled by the Trans-Atlantic highway - which she believed.

Paddyo

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Paddyo
she asked how he travelled to the states - by road or by plane - him being a quick thinker told her that he had travelled by the Trans-Atlantic highway - which she believed.

In college one of they guys was in the states working for the summer - and when he mentioned the Trans-Alantic Freeway they just believed it !

If you think that's bad - about the worst insult you can give to a Canadian is to ask what part of the states they are from, repeateadly , especially when USA foreign policy or guns etc. are mentioned...

sovtek

Originally posted by Paddyo
The same person as above was again on business in the states- talking at a function to a well educated American girl. She asked where he was from and he said Ireland - she asked how he travelled to the states - by road or by plane - him being a quick thinker told her that he had travelled by the Trans-Atlantic highway - which she believed.

Paddyo

Is that like your friend who had some American begging to buy his leprechan that he kept at home?

sovtek

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
If you think that's bad - about the worst insult you can give to a Canadian is to ask what part of the states they are from, repeateadly , especially when USA foreign policy or guns etc. are mentioned...

I noticed alot of Canadians traveling make sure to wear the maple leaf on some part of their person.
Identity crisis?

Venom

Originally posted by sovtek
I noticed alot of Canadians traveling make sure to wear the maple leaf on some part of their person.
Identity crisis?

Just the same as Irish people making sure that locals know were not English.

Venom

Originally posted by Redleslie
Uh, Father Ted was created and written by 2 Irish guys. It was set in Ireland and the theme tune was written by an Irishman. Only 1 actor was not Irish (Clare Grogan) and I think I read an interview with Arthur Mathews where he said most, if not all, of the production crew were Irish, but I can't be bothered chucking on a video to check that because like, who cares? Some might claim that it's the most unBritish sitcom ever, but nah it must be British, 100%, since a British company commissioned it. Similarly, Roddy Doyle's books are not Irish because they're published by Penguin. :rolleyes:

Well I guess thats makes Microsoft and Coca Cola the most succesful Irish companies EVAR seeing as how there Irish plants are well in Ireland and the majority of the work force is Irish.

Yay! Go us.

Sundy

well following on with your theory venom, There are two irish clubs left in champions league! Manchester Utd and Celtic cause they are part owned by irishmen so they must be irish clubs!!!!

And Father ted is an Irish comedy just as braveheart was a scotish film despite some of it being filmed in Ireland.

Venom

Originally posted by Sundy
well following on with your theory venom, There are two irish clubs left in champions league! Manchester Utd and Celtic cause they are part owned by irishmen so they must be irish clubs!!!!

And Father ted is an Irish comedy just as braveheart was a scotish film despite some of it being filmed in Ireland.

Try re-reading why I wrote.

You mixing up content with ownership.

Tazzle

Who wrote Father Ted?

I think you'll find it was 2 Irish men, 1 from Meath and 1 from Dublin. Therefore it's hard to argue that Father Ted isn't at heart an Irish comedy. Can't we just leave it there..

rcunning03

I think the brits know we are not British but think that we are part of the uk, it is complicated where one part of the country is in the uk but the other part is a republic, if your not from Ireland your not going to be too bothered learning the distinction, we get it from as soon as we start school

its not just the average brit that thinks we are in the uk if you look at the opening sequences of a lot of british news they show britain and ireland together as one country.

Also we are the british isles so it is confusing if you not irish or interested in ireland. I think the best way to explain ireland to a brit is tell them that ireland is just like an alternative britain, at first glance they both look the same but the differences are suttle but many

sovtek

Originally posted by rcunning03
its not just the average brit that thinks we are in the uk if you look at the opening sequences of a lot of british news they show britain and ireland together as one country.

If I were a martian watching BBC Northern Ireland weather, I wouldn't even know the Republic exists or failing that think it some no mans land where weather cannot exist.

bonkey

Originally posted by rcunning03
it is complicated where one part of the country is in the uk but the other part is a republic,

What...you mean they can't tell the difference between (say) France and the European Mainland as well????



jc