Transport and Traffic SPC

Victor

As I have mentioned before, I am a member of the Dublin City Council Transport and Traffic Strategic Planning Committee. There is a meeting on Thursday to discuss (a) HGV management post-Dublin Port Tunnel (b) review of congestion charging in London (c) road (not parking) enforcement.

Any thing anyone wants to raise (yes, I will raise Pearse Street Garda Station)?

MadsL

Dangerous traffic lights on the N3 roundabouts, the smaller (castleknock and blanchardstown) roundabouts cause traffic buildup on the blind side of the roundabout. Any traffic travelling inbound towards the city centre has to avoid stationary traffic waiting at a red light to turn right.

A better (and significantly safer sequence) would be a green light straight on and turning right to avoid ANY build up on the blind side of the roundabout.

Also we need ALL intersections to the roundabout to have lights, it is absurd to have 4 out 5 junctions with lights. This just encourages those on the uncontrolled junction to block traffic.

Victor

They are outside the city council area (not sure about the Ashtown one though).

MadsL

outside the city council area

Doh!

Ok, widening (removing/replacing the railing portion) Phoenix Park gates at all points to allow for an exit and an entrance gate.

Very cheap solution to trafffic build-up at enterance/exits to the park. Would take ten minutes off most people's commute through the park.

Andrew Duffy

Phoenix Park - no way. The gates are protected, and you shouldn't commute through a public park anyway (I did for a while, admittedly). If everybody obeyed the rules of the road and gave way to traffic entering the park it would be fair - you'd get in quickly and queue to get out.

an_taoiseach

Victor,

Thanks for asking

Not sure if the following is what you mean but.........

(1)

Traffic lights at Nassau St / Kildare St are positioned so that if there are coaches parked on the left ( normal set down for TCD tour ) and double decker buses on right ( en route to Kildare St ) then it is not possible to see the traffic light that controls straight ahead. While regulars know to look out for this, tourists ( up from the country ) sail through not even knowing that there are a set of lights. Suggest either enforce no parking on TCD side for a long distance before the lights or install an overhead light in the centre of the road

(2)

I believe that there is a real problem with a the visibility of a lot of the white lining around town when its is wet and dark. I believe that this problem is due to low spec white line and / or poor application of same. Once again this creates a safety issue for tourist type drivers





An T

Greenman

Victor I find it amazing that the port tunnel is not high enough. Can you tell us about that and why??

cyclopath2001

Why does Dublin City Council ignore statutory specifications when designing, constructing and maintaining cycle lanes and cycle tracks?

Has disciplinary or breach of contract action been taken against anyone responsible for the above?

It's all very well enforcing road traffic regulations against road-users, but local authorities should obey the law too.

Victor

Originally posted by greenman
Victor I find it amazing that the port tunnel is not high enough. Can you tell us about that and why??

It is perfectly high enough for all vehicles, except about 2% of trucks, accommodating those trucks was not foreseen (they didn't exist then AFAIK). Hence the discussion on tomorrow about HGV management.

Regarding the Phoenix Park it is owned by the OPW, not the city council. There is an issue with the wild deer that sometimes wander across the road, so some traffic control is necessary. What would be much better would be if express busses from Blanchardstown / Castleknock could use it.

Will look at Nassau Street and mention it.

Cameraman

OK - how two of my own personal bugbears (not sure if these are what you have in mind, but) :

(1) Enforcement of Traffic Stop Lights - Red usually seems to mean - "Only 3 more cars. Bicycles, please ignore"

(2) Limit cycling on footpaths, and the wrong way on roads to the hours between 3 and 4am. Enforce the law the rest of the time.

Greenman

Hi Victor,
I appreciate your answer but why could they not accommodate all the trucks?? [

accommodating those trucks was not foreseen (they didn't exist then AFAIK)

those trailers have been around for years mainly in the UK!!! They seem to be making the same mistake in Limerick!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Victor

Originally posted by greenman
I appreciate your answer but why could they not accommodate all the trucks??

No problem. Because it would cost more money.... and how about accommodating 6m trucks ...... I'm not saying it was ideal to pick 4.65m as a limit, but that is waht was picked.

Originally posted by greenman
those trailers have been around for years mainly in the UK!!!

Apparently only the UK and Spain allow them, everyone else wants them smaller.

an_taoiseach

"Apparently only the UK and Spain allow them, everyone else wants them smaller."

Yup,

IIRC Geoconsult had a very large finger in the original design pie

They are based in Austria

So that all fits in

Anyway Dublin needs to be lowered a peg or three

There is no reason why the whole country should revolve around it

there are other ports around the country

The big trucks can go there

'shure isnt Charlie McC leading on this

Settling the country ( even beyond the pale )

It will be like Cromwell all over again

Carlow give to Enterprise & Employment

WestMeath given to Education

etc.

And Dublin Bypassed

It'll be Great:D


An T

John R

As cameraman said, red light enforcement and bus lane/bus only road enforcement. How about fixed cameras instead of occasional Guards for both of these, they are common in lots of other countries. Great source of revenue, should make Charlie McGreedy happy.

MadsL

The gates are protected

I only want them to open, not bulldozed.

deer wander across the road, so some traffic control is necessary

Cattle grids shouldn't be too 'deer'....:eek:

you shouldn't commute through a public park anyway

Where is that written?? It actually demonstrates how great the traffic would be if we could get all the commercial traffic off the road during peak hours

it is owned by the OPW, not the city council

Thereby underlining the basic problem with Dublin, too many damn cooks. So the city council coundn't even make a proposal to the OPW? The Mayor? The Pope?

vinnyfitz

Victor
Firstly I think its great you are on the committee and asking for our views here.

My suggestion is that we could be more useful to you if the papers being discussed at the committee could be published by the Council on line in advance. Then maybe you could point us to them and we could help by giving you feedback based on specific experience.
Also, after the meetings the minutes should be published on-line by the Council so that you could just stick a link to them and we could read if interested.

On issues - congestion charging is intimately linked to the availability of park and ride in the other Dublin authorities. There was a budget incentive for this announced yesterday but the City Council needs to research now whether this will be enough to incentivise facility developers and ultimately car users? For example I think here are only 1200 P&R places planned or existing in Dublin South for example - not nearly enough.

Sorry what is "road enforcement"? I might have comments on this also if I understood it better?

Victor

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
My suggestion is that we could be more useful to you if the papers being discussed at the committee could be published by the Council on line in advance. Then maybe you could point us to them and we could help by giving you feedback based on specific experience. Also, after the meetings the minutes should be published on-line by the Council so that you could just stick a link to them and we could read if interested.

Blood - stone - public servants. My contact was astounded that I dare ask for them to be published.

a_ominous

Hi Victor
I know this is after the fact, but perhaps some items for the next meeting.

The countdown at some pedestrian lights are good; when can we expect more? I know budgets will dictate this. Also why do they only count down from 30 seconds? People think they're broken if they're not counting down.

Dawson Street / Nassau Street junction. Why is this still a 2 stage pedestrian crossing? It's only 2 lanes of traffic and there's usually a delay here. Couldn't the traffic lights be moved 2-3 metres up Dawson St. and allow a wider pedestrian crossing.

One pet hate of mine; College Green. I'm a quick walker but trying to get across from one side of the street to another is next to impossible without a run. The sequencing of lights is @r$e. Couldn't the triangle from TCD main entrance to cigar shop on Grafton St to BOI be one big pedestrian crossing. This would allow people to cross from Trinity to northside of Dame St in one go. Or Grafton St to continue to Westmoreland St. So what if a car is kept back an extra 20 or 30 feet. Big delay? I think not.

Does the Corpo _ever_ revise light sequencing???

Oh, Oh, another one!!!! Liffey St / Abbey street junction. There is a stupidly narrow 5 foot temporary pedestrian bridge that is offset to the way people want to go. Typical route Ha'penny Bridge to Henry Street. Forcing all pedestrian traffic on this yoke is fcuking daft. Anyone every looked at fluid dynamics? A thing like this slows traffic down and when you get 2 people travelling in opposite directions. What a mess!! Makes me want to avoid town like the plague. Getting around city centre on foot is becoming a pain in the @r$e now.

Victor

Meeting is at 3:30pm.

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Sorry what is "road enforcement"?

Traffic enforcement as opposed to parking enforcement.

Originally posted by a_ominous
Does the Corpo _ever_ revise light sequencing???

Yes, e.g. Dame Street / South Great Georges Street now has a single longer pedestrian rotation which is working out better.

Originally posted by MadsL
Cattle grids shouldn't be too 'deer'....:eek:

15km or road - mostly both sides - should cost a bit

vinnyfitz

Can the DTO use digital cameras to spot e.g. illegal right turns.

I am constantly amazed by the number of cars that (for example) still turn right at the bottom of George's St into Dame st and left at the bottom of Dawson St into Nassau st (both these are bus lanes only.) Another e.g. is the illegal right hand turn at the bottom of Lennox St onto Richmond Hill.

Why can't Keegan mount cameras and signage and warn people they will be photographed and fined if they break this sort of law?
The cops can't spend their lives hanging around these junctions. Is legislation required or could it be done with by-laws?

Victor

So I went along today, sod all done.

The HGV traffic management will go to public consultation later in the month for return in January.

Congestion charging is still a long way away – at least the far side of the local elections ; )

I wasn’t able to raise safety and enforcement as it had been left out of the agenda (despite it being in the minutes).

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Can the DTO use digital cameras to spot e.g. illegal right turns.

The Dublin Transport Organsisation (strategy, theory, funding) is separate to the City Council's Office of the Director of Traffic (implementation and monitoring).

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
I am constantly amazed by the number of cars that (for example) still turn right at the bottom of George's St into Dame st and left at the bottom of Dawson St into Nassau st (both these are bus lanes only.) Another e.g. is the illegal right hand turn at the bottom of Lennox St onto Richmond Hill.

To a degree this is begrudgery on all our behalf's, yes those turns are illegal, but the purpose is to reduce the amount of traffic, not safety. It's not like driving the wrong way down a one way street or on the wrong carriageway of a dual carriageway. However, I do accept, it does have a marginal safety impact insofar as people don’t expect vehicle to make those turns.

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Why can't Keegan mount cameras and signage and warn people they will be photographed and fined if they break this sort of law? The cops can't spend their lives hanging around these junctions. Is legislation required or could it be done with by-laws?

Well Keegan is in hospital, but I imagine it would be possible - however like the speeding cameras, I suspect they would need a change in the law.

Victor

Originally posted by Victor
Congestion charging is still a long way away – at least the far side of the local elections ; )

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-580188715-pageUrl--2FThe-Newspaper-2FSundays-Paper-2FNews.asp

PDs: no congestion charges for Dublin
23/11/03 00:00

By Niamh Connolly
The Progressive Democrats have ruled out congestion charges for Dublin following a visit by members of the Oireachtas Transport Committee to examine bus privatisation and congestion charges in London.

The party's transport spokesman, SenatorTom Morrissey, said this weekend that "any talk of congestion charges should be forgotten".

"It is important that the Oireachtas Transport Committee relays a clear message to all of the agencies in Dublin - the Director of Traffic, the DTO and the Department of Transport - that the London experience can never be repeated here," said Morrissey.

"The city does not have the critical mass. For it to work, the charges would have to start as far out as the M50. Only 1 per cent of London is actually covered by the congestion charge, but London has a much higher density of population than Dublin. Traffic solutions are essentially about density, and we do not have the density."

The cost of implementing congestion charges in Dublin would be prohibitively expensive compared to the revenue yielded. Priority should be given to improving public transport provision and QBCs as an alter native to congestion charges, Morrissey said.

"The congestion charge system, with the number of cameras needed to be effective, is very expensive to get up and running and to maintain. In London, that cost will be recouped over time, but in Dublin, we simply do not have enough motorists within a concentrated zone. The cost would be crippling," he said.

MadsL

---

Originally posted by MadsL
Cattle grids shouldn't be too 'deer'....

---

Victor - why would you need "15km or road - mostly both sides - should cost a bit"

I'm just talking about opening the gates to allow two way traffic in/out of the park...?? Rather than the stupid 'give way to incoming traffic' system.

Victor

Originally posted by MadsL
I'm just talking about opening the gates to allow two way traffic in/out of the park...?? Rather than the stupid 'give way to incoming traffic' system.

I thought you wanted cattle grids to keep the deer off the road. I see what you mean now.

Andrew Duffy

In what way is traffic on a minor road giving way to traffic on a major road a stupid system? And how would you propose opening the gates without demolishing the gateposts? They are opened fully every morning at seven already.

cyclopath2001

I do not think the park should be used for commuting.

Victor

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Another e.g. is the illegal right hand turn at the bottom of Lennox St onto Richmond Hill.

I passed this today (it's actually South Richmond Street Richmind Hill is between Camden St. and Aungier St. and isn't in fact a hill). Two cops had stopped someone for whatever reason (I overhead "tax and insurance") and had the flashing blue lights on in the car, when some muppet in his flash metallic silver Merc comes around the corner from Lennox Street, blocks the inbound lane and gets pulled over..... :rolleyes: I suspect he won't be making that turn again for a while.

antoinolachtnai

Can anyone explain the rationale behind not allowing vehicles travelling along pearse st. to go straight ahead at the junction with Tara St.? How does this improve road use or improve congestion?

Antoin.

John R

Originally posted by antoinolachtnai
Can anyone explain the rationale behind not allowing vehicles travelling along pearse st. to go straight ahead at the junction with Tara St.? How does this improve road use or improve congestion?

Antoin.

It helps stop northbound traffic congesting College Street while queuing to access Westmoreland St. Leaving College Street clearer for southbound traffic from O'Connell St / D'olier Street.

Victor

It is part of the innner orbital route, going onto College Street would be going insidee the orbital. It also encourages traffic to use Gardiner Street, not O'Connell Street and makes the whoke College Street / Green / Westmoreland Street area more pedestrian friendly.

Who genuinely needs to go from Pearse Street to College Street?

vinnyfitz

Originally posted by Victor
Who genuinely needs to go from Pearse Street to College Street?

Well - those approaching the south city centre from the South East e.g. Dun Laoghaire.
If you now want to approach any of the city centre car parks - Trinity St, Clarendon St, Temple Bar, - you have to engage in a congestion inducing loop down Tara back up D'Olier, Colege etc to do this.
I understand the pedestrian issue but this road closure strikes me as the wrong solution...

antoinolachtnai

The other problem is if you want to get from (say) Merrion Square to Thomas St. Thomas St. has a good few businesses you need to drive to, such as tiles, paints, hardware and so on.

Now, I don't mean to sound like a complainer. If driving a few extra blocks will do anything to reduce the congestion, that's fair enough. But it's hard to understand what the logic of this is. Is there any evidence or other supporting material that explains more about this decision?

Also, were the traffic light timings modified at College Green to reflect the reduced traffic flows? It makes sense that they would have been, if the flow from college st. onto College Green was reduced to make way for more southbound traffic. But I can't say I noticed any difference (though I could be wrong).

Finally, if this restriction is such a good idea, why was it removed for the pre-Christmas period?

Antoin.

Victor

Originally posted by antoinolachtnai
The other problem is if you want to get from (say) Merrion Square to Thomas St. Thomas St. has a good few businesses you need to drive to, such as tiles, paints, hardware and so on.

Such a journey would be much quicker / less congested if you went via Stephen's Green and Kevein Street.

Originally posted by antoinolachtnai
Also, were the traffic light timings modified at College Green to reflect the reduced traffic flows? It makes sense that they would have been, if the flow from college st. onto College Green was reduced to make way for more southbound traffic. But I can't say I noticed any difference (though I could be wrong).

I don't know, I imagine those sets of lights are under continuous review from Traffic Control, certainly there has been less backed-up southbound traffic from D'Olier Street to College Street.

Originally posted by vinnyfitz
Well - those approaching the south city centre from the South East e.g. Dun Laoghaire. If you now want to approach any of the city centre car parks - Trinity St, Clarendon St, Temple Bar, - you have to engage in a congestion inducing loop down Tara back up D'Olier, Colege etc to do this. I understand the pedestrian issue but this road closure strikes me as the wrong solution...

Access traffic is excepted from the restriction, I don't know what is considered "access traffic". I don't think it's necessarily a "congestion inducing loop" as it permits a better flow of traffic.

robbie1876

Victor,

Getting back to the original topic of looking for Road Management issues for the City Council to enforce, here's something possibly for the next meeting.

Traffic should only be allowed to park on the side of road facing in the direction in which the traffic is flowing. For example, coming down Georges Street towards Dame Street, there are a couple of loading bays on the opposite side of the road (outside Dunnes etc). What happens there is cars and in particualr vans swing across the road into the oncoming lane to enter the loading bay. On exiting the bay, they must pull into oncoming traffic and navigate across back to the other side of the road.

I've done this a couple of times myself in my van and there is major visibility problems for me pulling back into the traffic. In fact I can't see traffic behind me at all because of the angle I'm at coming back across the road. So I have to nudge my way in and basically hope that someone stops, cos I can't see them!

Our streets are particularly narrow, this seems like a logical step, and is easily enforced by Garda on foot etc. As far as I know they have this rule in parts of Europe, Sweden definitely.

sceptre

Originally posted by robbie1876
Traffic should only be allowed to park on the side of road facing in the direction in which the traffic is flowing.

I'd like to see this introduced. All around the country as a matter of fact - in periods of busy traffic the car emerging after parking like this can be a dangerous menace.

Victor

It actually is illegal already at night (no red reflectors on front of vehicle and headlight aim left into traffic). A "simple" change to the Rules of the Road would help.

antoinolachtnai

Another issue: the road layout at Charlemont Bridge, Charlemont St and Ranelagh Rd. The layout here is very odd since it was changed a few years ago. It woud be far better to simplify it to two lanes northward through the junction (including a buslane) and one lane southward.

Of course there could be some rationale for the current layout that I don't know about.

Victor

Originally posted by antoinolachtnai
Another issue: the road layout at Charlemont Bridge, Charlemont St and Ranelagh Rd. The layout here is very odd since it was changed a few years ago. It woud be far better to simplify it to two lanes northward through the junction (including a buslane) and one lane southward.

The layout is to maximise throughflow at the junction

Sarsfield

I have no evidence, other than my own observation, to back this up, but better maintained road markings would make a big difference.

I notice that drivers are far more inclined to observe a yellow box, for example, if it is recently painted and clearly visible. Ditto lane markings. 2 clearly marked lanes usually results in 2 neat lines of traffic. Poorly marked lanes usually results in many drivers occupying enough of the adjacent lane to effectively turn the road in to single lane traffic.

antoinolachtnai

A lot of problems in Dublin result from poor maintenance.

The colour disc on the traffic light across the road from where I live has been broken for a week for instance.

Signs and lights are often left pointing the wrong way for weeks on end.

Signposting is non-existent, poor, or badly maintained. For example, the sign near Kilmainham which is supposed to direct you onto the Lucan road but has been obscured from view for several years, or the orbital signs which obscure the view of existing road signs.

None of these things is a big deal in itself, but taken together they make driving around Dublin an even harder job than it needs to be.

Victor

Originally posted by antoinolachtnai
The colour disc on the traffic light across the road from where I live has been broken for a week for instance.

Can you report this to traffic control at 1800 29 39 49?

antoinolachtnai

Alrighty, I reported it last time (was a lot more satisfactory than the last time I tried to report a fault although it was engaged the first time). Let's see how long it takes to fix!

cyclopath2001

Anyone know why Dublin City Council decieded not to renew the the cycle lanes on Annesley Bridge, Fairview after the completion of the bridge maintenance works?

Ditto, why the renewed cycle track at Clontarf is not in compliance with legal standards?

Doodah7

Another issue:- can I ask what &*%$ing genius decided to meddle with Terenure Place and make a single lane with no right turn inbound from Templeogue Road. The delays in the morning are now phenomenal.

The bus takes nearly fifteen minutes to get through one junction!! (Of course the bus lane ends before Terenure so it is stuck like everyone else...)

What was so wrong with the right turn that was there...

joemomma

The point of banning the right turn, as I understand it, was to stop the buses getting stuck behind right-turning traffic. Has this not been effective?

Victor

Originally posted by tallpaul
Another issue:- can I ask what &*%$ing genius decided to meddle with Terenure Place and make a single lane with no right turn inbound from Templeogue Road. The delays in the morning are now phenomenal. The bus takes nearly fifteen minutes to get through one junction!! (Of course the bus lane ends before Terenure so it is stuck like everyone else...) What was so wrong with the right turn that was there...

Previously discussed on I believe the Motors Board. I believe to get that right-turning traffic to make their right turns elsewhere to improve junction capacity. What is the current status of that junction - i saw new white paint there at Christmas. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=844543#post844543

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
Anyone know why Dublin City Council decieded not to renew the the cycle lanes on Annesley Bridge, Fairview after the completion of the bridge maintenance works

I don't know - is all work complete now (I haven't been there in a while).

Originally posted by cyclopath2001
Ditto, why the renewed cycle track at Clontarf is not in compliance with legal standards?

Lazy mother******* in the council. Also I'm not fully sure there are proper "legal standards"

Doodah7

Originally posted by Victor
Previously discussed on I believe the Motors Board. I believe to get that right-turning traffic to make their right turns elsewhere to improve junction capacity. What is the current status of that junction - i saw new white paint there at Christmas. [

To improve junction capacity!!! It has made a complete disaster of it in the mornings. Did well on the bus this morning, was only waiting about eight minutes to get through it...

cyclopath2001

For Cycle Tracks, there are legal standards, laid down in the Road Traffic Acts and related statutory instruments. They stipulate minimum widths, road signs and road-markings.

The laws also provide abundant exceptions to facilitate use of cycle tracks for car parking.

While the law is clear about how a track should be marked, it is less assertive about how good the function should be.