'Racist?' Questions by Insurance Co.

MadsL

I rang for a motor insurance quote recently and was asked two questions which I thought were pretty much out of order...

“What is your nationality?”
“Have you lived in Ireland for all of your life?”

Anyone else been asked the same questions and been offended by it?

eth0_

It's not offensive...i've been asked stuff like that when applying for jobs. In fact in N Ireland they ask you what religion you are and what ethnic background. It's just for statistics.

ferdi

hyper-sensitive me thinks

Capt'n Midnight

Next they'll be asking you where you live and what's your phone number and are you married n' stuff..

Have a look at the online quotes (stickies) to see what questions are generally asked ..

In the states they are refusing health cover on based on DNA samples.

Da Man

Perhaps a bigger problem is that if you aren't of the right nationality and haven't lived here for the last x years, they will refuse to quote you. Irish insurance companies are truly a breed of their own. All this is really doing is causing a lot of immigrants to drive around uninsured.

MadsL

Hold on a second. Insurance companies are now no longer allowed to ask marital status because it was deemed to be irrelevant.

What exactly has my nationality got to do with driving FFS.

It's just for statistics.

So why was I refused a quotation when I refused to answer the nationality question? And would you be happy if say all (random example)-ians were refused cover?

NeRb666

I'm offended by the gender and date of birth questions

MojoMaker

Bull**** guys. They're not being racist. they are trying to ascertain the standard of driving you are used to. Most of the immigrants from China for example can't drive for toffee, likewise many immigrants from eastern europe have a totally unregulated system of driver testing and before insurance is handed out it is perfectly normal for them to try and benchmark your driving experience relative to the EU.

Why would you have a problem with it anyway Madsl?

MadsL

they are trying to ascertain the standard of driving you are used to. Most of the immigrants from China for example can't drive for toffee, likewise many immigrants from eastern europe have a totally unregulated system of driver testing and before insurance is handed out it is perfectly normal for them to try and benchmark your driving experience relative to the EU.

Zenophobic bull.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that an Irish driver who still can't pass their test after the 9th attempt is better than a Chinese driver who has been driving for 30 years who passes an Irish test first time and then gets an Full Irish licence.

Nationality has NOTHING to do with driving.

many immigrants from eastern europe have a totally unregulated system of driver testing

Where exactly?? Or is this a general 'eastern europe not quite as good as us' kind of feeling. I lived in Eastern Europe or as it is more accurately called Central Europe. The part I lived in - Czech Republic - don't let unqualified drivers drive like in Ireland. They also have a zero drink driving limit. Mad unregulated nuts aren't they.

Why would you have a problem with it anyway Madsl?

Maybe I am just a crazy nut who feels that discriminating on the basis of nationality is err... wrong.

Jesus, must get me head checked.

eth0_

Originally posted by MadsL
And would you be happy if say all (random example)-ians were refused cover?

That's such a ridiculous thing to come out with. It's 2003 you know. Quinn Direct aren't about to bar say, Somalians from having a policy with them.

MadsL

A few facts for you.

I was asked to give my nationality.

I refused as under the Data Protection Act the information wasn't adequate, relevant and not excessive.

the data shall be adequate, relevant and not excessive in relation to that purpose or purposes"
- section 2(1)(c)(iii) of the Data Protection Act 1988

Then I was refused a quote. Draw your own conclusions.

This insurance company is the only one who have ever asked me type of questions.

Would you be offended if they asked if you were pregnant as it might affect your ability to drive??

MadsL

_eth0, I never said this was Quinn Direct.

Something you want to tell us? Have you recently moved to Fermanagh.

bizmark

For god sake Mad ....Oh no they asked you where you came from what a crime :rolleyes:

I smell a uber politic correctness nut .... the world is going to **** when you cant even ask what country someone come's from with out being qutoed Dp law's and called a raceist

unkel

Damn right MadsL

In a normal world a 90% discount on insurance premium would be applied if you can prove you don't have an Irish driving license but a continental european one :mad:

MadsL

where you came from

is often followed by 'why don't you go back there'.

I detect a rise of racist, zenophobic attitudes in this country.

What the Sweet Holy FK has where I was born got to do with driving and insurance??? If a judge has determined that insurance companies cannot ask marital status questions or refuse a 76year old, then this nationality question is well out of order.

MadsL

By the way bizmark it can be a crime...

The Race Relations (NI) Order 1997 (RRO) follows closely the provisions of the 1976 Race Relations Act in GB. It outlaws discrimination on grounds of colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origin. The Irish Traveller community is specifically identified in the Order as a racial group against which racial discrimination is unlawful.

The Order makes it unlawful to discriminate either directly to indirectly or through the victimisation of an individual using definitions similar to those found in the Fair Employment and Treatment (NI) Order 1998 (FETO). The Race Order adds a further ground by providing that segregation on racial grounds also constitutes discrimination.

bizmark

yep Uber politic correctness nut :rolleyes:

I detect a rise of racist, zenophobic attitudes in this country.

Raceism isnt asking someone where they came from ffs

Hey mad do you come from ireland ? ......oh **** im a raseist now :rolleyes:

your takeing this way tomuch to heart for no good reasion IF you have prove of a company not giveing a non-national with a full licence insurance just because their black/east europion etc THEN thats raseist

If you dont your bitching about a simple question

MadsL

That's such a ridiculous thing to come out with. It's 2003 you know. Quinn Direct aren't about to bar say, Somalians from having a policy with them.

What's to stop them. If they were allowed to continue with this practice and they decided to ban all Somalians. Who's to know.

It's 2003 you know - yes I do know, and Ireland needs to wake up to a multi-cultural society. Fast.

The only way to protect civil liberties is to shout very loudly when there are in danger of being abused.

MadsL

Hey mad do you come from ireland

OK Bizmark let's look at this. Simple question "Do I come from Ireland?"
But it is not a simple question...

Was I born in Ireland?
Do I live in Ireland and pay taxes here.
Where in Ireland (Is the North the UK?)
Have I lived in Ireland long enough to naturalise?
Were my Parents Irish?
Was I born in another country to Irish parents?
Was my Granny Irish (whoo Hoo I can play for Ireland)

I could go on...

bizmark

What in the name of superman are you on about ?

Was I born in Ireland?

Word play you knew what i ment

Do I live in Ireland and pay taxes here

if your born in ireland or to irish parents else where your irish other wise your not in the eye's of the law

Where in Ireland (Is the North the UK?)

oh come on mad you know full well the North is considered UK and all born their are british

Have I lived in Ireland long enough to naturalise?

see answer 2

Were my Parents Irish?

see answer 2

Was I born in another country to Irish parents?

see answer 2

Was my Granny Irish

if your perents are irish your irish if their english your english ....thank god though for the weird ass football rule's


Though tbh i have no idea what this has to do with the question at hand ?

MadsL

tbh i have no idea what this has to do with the question at hand

The point, my friend, is that if neither you or I can decide or agree on what nationality is - then the insurance companies have no business doing that either.

Asking someone's nationality is offensive when it is terms of making a decision about them. In this case an insurance premium.

Do you know how your insurance base rate is calculated? No, neither do I. It is a complex set of actuarial data that the underwriters use to determine insurance risk, usually based on sex, age and driving experience...also sometimes occupation. The only guarantee that I have that my nationality DOESN'T form part of this calculation is if the Insurance company doesn't ask the nationality question.


Oh and by the way....you are wrong about the North...

Under Article 2 of Bunreacht na hEireann (the Irish Constitution), every person born on the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas has an entitlement to be part of the Irish nation. That is to say, they are Irish citizens. In addition, under Article 1(vi) of the British-Irish Agreement, anyone born in Northern Ireland has the right to identify themselves as Irish or British (or both) as they so choose and they also have the right to be an Irish citizen. The principal legislation governing the issue of Irish citizenship is the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Acts, 1956 and 1986.

MarkR

Umm.... Maybe they want to know what side of the road you are used to driving on? That would be reasonable....

Mark

lucian

I don't think the question is a racist one.
What my opinion is on this,

if you are Irish/UK/Central Europe born, then you know your rights, the law, etc.
and based on that you get the right quote.

If you are from eastern or far europe you haven't got a clue about prices and how things works so you get what you are offered, cause there is not many insurance companies that will actually insure foreigners (but will give a good reason why not.)
which will have a bit extra €'s on top.

eth0_

Originally posted by MadsL


Under Article 2 of Bunreacht na hEireann (the Irish Constitution), every person born on the island of Ireland, its islands and its seas has an entitlement to be part of the Irish nation. That is to say, they are Irish citizens.

Wasn't this changed/going to be changed? There were so many non-nationals coming into the country to give birth purely to gain the right to live here because they would be the parent of an Irish national, that it was going to be changed.
The UK changed this in their constitution for exactly this reason.

lucian

Originally posted by eth0_
Wasn't this changed/going to be changed? There were so many non-nationals coming into the country to give birth purely to gain the right to live here because they would be the parent of an Irish national, that it was going to be changed.
The UK changed this in their constitution for exactly this reason.

You are not up to date on this, but that was changed in January this year.

Our man in Havana

MadsL complain to the data protection commisioner. He made a decision that sking for maritial status was illeagal by insurnace companies.

Could you name this insurance company?

MadsL

Umm.... Maybe they want to know what side of the road you are used to driving on? That would be reasonable....

You are confusing familiarity with competance. Just because I know what an airplane looks like and which side the pilot sits doesn't mean I can fly a plane. I could hold X passport but may NEVER have driven in X country.

Also descriminating against someone with an EU licence because they drive on the 'wrong' side of the road would mean that the insurance company would be 'discriminating' against an EU citizen entitled to equal rights here. This would not be the best press in a year when Ireland holds the Presidency of the EU.

I concede your point on the change in the constitution in January, a very bad decision, but eth0_ I like you to define "so many" Given that from 92 to 97 there we only 6000 asylum seekers of which only 300 were granted refugee status this is hardly "so many"... Germany had over 136,000 applications in the same period.

But back to my main point as this question of nationality is such an emotive issue and clearly raises a number of ethical and cultural questions;

WTF has Nationality to do with Insurance

NeRb666

I think you're blowing this out of all proportion.

Anyone purchasing insurance is going to be discriminated against in one way or the other.

If insurance company A has 100 22 y/o males insured and 20% of them make a claim, they're gonna up their premium next time around. If they have 100 people of a certain nationality and 20% of them make a claim, the same thing is gonna happen. It's a load of bollocks but it's the way they operate. If you feel it's illegal, go take a court case against whoever it is.

MadsL

Anyone purchasing insurance is going to be discriminated against in one way or the other.

Precisely my point. There is enough discrimination in the process without muddying the waters with questions about nationality. Currently only ONE insurer finds it necessary to ask these questions.

If they have 100 people of a certain nationality and 20% of them make a claim, the same thing is gonna happen.

Well consider if you went to the UK and went looking for a quote and were told "Oh, we don't insure Irish, they are too much of a risk"
This situation already arises in that most mainland UK insurance companies will not insure N. Ireland residents.

Incidentally the Data Protection Commissioner has ruled that asking your marital status is irrelevant.
http://www.dataprivacy.ie/02cs1.htm yet this same insurance company still has this question on it's online quotation form.

Why not go the whole way and and add;

1. Are you a member of the Traveller Community?
2. What is your sexual orientation?
3. What is your skin colour?
4. Are you pregnant?
5. Are you disabled?

"blowing this out of all proportion" is what this Insurance co. are doing, not me. They are the ones asking for excessive information. At what point do you feel is enough information about a person gathered.

"its the way they operate" No it isn't. This is only ONE insurance company at the moment, but the thin end of a very dodgy wedge.

bizmark

if u feel so much against it why not complan to someone that can change it ?

eth0_

Originally posted by bizmark
if u feel so much against it why not complan to someone that can change it ?

Bizmark is right! Why don't you ASK THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, instead of pissing and moaning about it on here where it's unlikely anyone will know why they ask these questions.

Here's something else that'll set you off, madsl, in the north when you apply for a job you have to tell them what religion you are. If you refuse, they'll find out by looking at what school you went to.
IT'S A DISGRACE I SAYS!

<small>Actually, no one in N Ireland really cares </small>

Atreides

I support MadsL in this, it wasn't to long ago that one would pay more for your car insurance if you live in certain "high crime" area's, hell you probably still do. Not really related to the topic, but it shows insurance companies will take anything they want to screw you over.

bizmark

ne owuld pay more for your car insurance if you live in certain "high crime" area's, hell you probably still do.

:eek: ILL BE DAMNED they charge you more if you car is more likely to be robbed ! THATS A OUTRAGE!...:D

MadsL

quote:

---

Originally posted by bizmark
if u feel so much against it why not complan to someone that can change it ?

---

Bizmark is right! Why don't you ASK THE INSURANCE COMPANIES, instead of pissing and moaning about it on here where it's unlikely anyone will know why they ask these questions.

I have ands I will post the results of that complaint once they 'review' my complaint...

And my reason for posting here was to see if anyone else here felt as strongly as I do about it, enough to bring some pressure to bear on the insurance company. Clearly you are an apatheic bunch (with a few exceptions) when it comes civil liberties, and somehow caring about the rights of someone who hadn't the 'good fortune' to be born on this 'blessed isle' (depending if their parents were deported immediately afterward) is a sin in your eyes. Odd.

The fact that no-one in the north 'cares' (which I doubt BTW) means you all deserve to have the peace process fall apart.

Atreides

Originally posted by bizmark
:eek: ILL BE DAMNED they charge you more if you car is more likely to be robbed ! THATS A OUTRAGE!...:D

Tell me is there anywhere where there is not chance of your car being robbed, who is to say my cars more likely to get robbed then yours? If oyur car is worth more, then your car is more likely to get robbed,

bizmark

Their are higer risk area's m8

just like if i was to run naked drinking a beer though dublin its Very unlikely id be killed
How ever if i did the same thing in iraq id be dead before the american's can say "frendly fire":p

MadsL

Ok Lets talk facts. I now have hard evidence of discrimination and will be taking this further.

Exactly same details except nationality and I was quoted;

F53 American 2.0L car = 2791 euro
F53 Korean 2.0L = 5354 euro


Try arguing there is no discrimination.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by MadsL
quote:

---

Originally posted by bizmark
if u feel so much against it why not complan to someone that can change it ?

---

I have ands I will post the results of that complaint once they 'review' my complaint...

And my reason for posting here was to see if anyone else here felt as strongly as I do about it, enough to bring some pressure to bear on the insurance company. Clearly you are an apatheic bunch (with a few exceptions) when it comes civil liberties, and somehow caring about the rights of someone who hadn't the 'good fortune' to be born on this 'blessed isle' (depending if their parents were deported immediately afterward) is a sin in your eyes. Odd.

The fact that no-one in the north 'cares' (which I doubt BTW) means you all deserve to have the peace process fall apart.

I agree with you 100%. The problem is the Irish are resigned to the fact they are being rode over backwards by the Insurance companies and other businesses. They just accept it and stay quiet. Its up to the likes of MadsL and like minded people to expose the wrong doers. I wish you every sucess with your action.


BTW:
In the North, what happens if you are of neither main "religion"? What if you are a morman or other minority group? Are these part of 50/50 system? More to the point what if you say your an atheist?

People do convert and give up religion so checking where you went to school would prove nothing.

Atreides

Well how come when ever i put in 19 as my age I can't get a quote?

Silent Bob

A relevant question would be where was your driving licence issued. Some countries have more lax rules than us and others (most of Europe) have far more stringent driver education than we do.

Whether you are Irish, Chinese, Italian American, Argentinian etc. it should not matter a damn to an insurance company if you hold an Irish driving licence. After all you have proven your ability to drive according to the laws of this country.

eth0_

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond

In the North, what happens if you are of neither main "religion"? What if you are a morman or other minority group? Are these part of 50/50 system?

It's 'catholic' 'protestant' 'neither community'.
Madsl - your little snide remark about the peace process is exactly the kind of stupid, knee-jerk reaction i've come to expect from you, from what posts of yours i've read. We don't 'care' about the equality survey we have to fill in with every job application because....it's for our own protection. Not so long ago, plenty of protestant employers wouldn't employ catholics and vice versa. There was no way of checking who was doing this. Now the government can, and if they see an employer employing no catholics, they investigate. The company themselves don't (well, aren't supposed to) look at the form you fill in.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by eth0_
It's 'catholic' 'protestant' 'neither community'.
Madsl - your little snide remark about the peace process is exactly the kind of stupid, knee-jerk reaction i've come to expect from you, from what posts of yours i've read. We don't 'care' about the equality survey we have to fill in with every job application because....it's for our own protection. Not so long ago, plenty of protestant employers wouldn't employ catholics and vice versa. There was no way of checking who was doing this. Now the government can, and if they see an employer employing no catholics, they investigate. The company themselves don't (well, aren't supposed to) look at the form you fill in.

If they dont look where do the forms go to? what becomes of them? What % of the neither community are they required to employ?

eth0_

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
If they dont look where do the forms go to? what becomes of them? What % of the neither community are they required to employ?

They go to a government agency, the equality commission I think they're called. They're not required to employ any % of any community, it's only if an employer is seen to be employing only one section of the community that suspicions are raised.

MadsL

I can't believe you eth0_

I raise the point here that an insurance company is charging up to 2,500 euro difference SOLELY on the basis of nationality, and you accuse me of being knee-jerk.

kind of stupid, knee-jerk reaction i've come to expect from you

Thank you - I specialise in stupidity and jerks. I'll try to say nothing in future so I don't offend you. :rolleyes:

I said that people should not have to answer questions about nationality in their insurance quotations, my comment about the peace process was that if you don't care about civil liberties, then it doesn't deserve to succeed. I understand the reason for the employment questionnaire in the North, but if everyone was 'religion-blind' in the North, then there would be no need for the survey.

Back on Topic - justify the difference in the insurance quotation.

Anyone?

MarkR

I'm from the states and I didn't feel particularly outraged to be asked this. Not saying this is a good reason, but it's a reason. Quite often Irish insurers won't give you a NCB, or even recognition of previous experience if it wasn't gained it Ireland. My aunt's boyfriend was a trucker in the UK for 15 years, no claims etc, and had to start from scratch here. Wouldn't apply to the american / korean example you gave of course. I'm sure there are different requirements for licences in some countries (can't think how they could be more lax than ireland though - never driven before but can afford insurance - no problem, failed your test? Have a nice drive home..) I don't have the exact criteria.

Btw, the nationality thing bugs you, but not the testicle taxation? They already decide that you're risky if you're a male driver, and god help you if you are under 25. Where do you draw the line? My age and sex are personal? How about the type of car you drive? Where you will mostly be using the car, surely that's more big brother spying on you? And how about the relationship to other drivers, you good with that? Profession - why do they want to know that? It's all for statistical data. You can bet that they have some nice little multipliers added on for different nationalities. All can be considered dumb questions.

The main thing is, is the question relevant? You think no, I think yes. Different countries have different speed limits, different traffic laws, throw languages into the mix and you have some difficulty. In a hypothetical situation, if a visitor to Ireland couldn't read English, had no knowledge of driving on urban roads, and only previous experience had been driving say.... across open desert with no roads? (extreme example i know, but possible) Compare that to someone who can read the signs, and is familiar (hopefully!) with Irish road traffic laws.

Mark

MadsL

Fundamental issue here is take two drivers, one American, one Korean. Same age, sex, occupation, no claims, convictions etc etc. Both living in Ireland same length of time, both holding an Irish Licence for less than a year. Most insurance companies would quote the same because the do not have the nationality question.

However, the company that does ask about nationality quoted the Korean at 2,500 euro higher than the American.

Now your point...

Different countries have different speed limits, different traffic laws, throw languages into the mix and you have some difficulty. In a hypothetical situation, if a visitor to Ireland couldn't read English, had no knowledge of driving on urban roads, and only previous experience had been driving say.... across open desert with no roads? (extreme example i know, but possible) Compare that to someone who can read the signs, and is familiar (hopefully!) with Irish road traffic laws

The example I quoted was someone living in Ireland for 3 years. Hardly visitors. Both these individuals have FULL Irish licences which means that they have completed and passed both a written theory test (in English) and a competency based driving test and passed that too. They have the same level of ability to drive and understanding of the rules of the road and signage as an Irish person with a full licence. In fact they have a greater level of competency than the Irish person on a 2nd provisional driving unaccompanied and probably paying considerably less insurance.

When I spoke to the insurance company they said that nationality does not affect the premium and that it's purpose was validation to prevent insurance fraud. However I proved today that the insurance company's underwriting system contains a loading depending on nationality. That is seriously questionable practice and I feel possibly illegal. I will be taking this further.

unkel

Originally posted by MadsL
That is seriously questionable practice and I feel possibly illegal. I will be taking this further.

Couldn't agree more m8

Victor

MadsL, discrimination is permitted where there is a sound statistical basis, what you will have to prove is there is no sound statistical basis for the discrimination. Can you compare an American and a Korean who have been living here for say 20 years?

Originally posted by eth0_
Wasn't this changed/going to be changed? There were so many non-nationals coming into the country to give birth purely to gain the right to live here because they would be the parent of an Irish national, that it was going to be changed.

People have suggested it be changed, but no proposal has been made.

Originally posted by eth0_
The UK changed this in their constitution for exactly this reason.

The UK has no formal constitution, merely law, tradition and precedent.

Originally posted by lucian
You are not up to date on this, but that was changed in January this year.

You are perhaps confusing this with a supreme court judgement saying that parents of an Irish person don’t automatically have the right of residence, that it should be based on length of time the parent was in Ireland (two years too little, seven years enough).

Originally posted by eth0_
Here's something else that'll set you off, madsl, in the north when you apply for a job you have to tell them what religion you are. If you refuse, they'll find out by looking at what school you went to. IT'S A DISGRACE I SAYS! <small>Actually, no one in N Ireland really cares </small>

Much the same applies here, you can ask the questions, but they have to be on a separate anonymous questionnaire.

MadsL

what you will have to prove is there is no sound statistical basis for the discrimination

All other things being equal I cannot see where they are getting their statistics from. No other insurance company gathers this type of data. I assume they are making it up as they go along..

MadsL

Despite the underwhelming support on this issue from this forum...The Irish Times and the Equality Commission took this up and now...Quinn Direct will no longer discriminate on nationality grounds...

see post on MIJAG here

Our man in Havana

Good on you! Is the ruling online anywhere? Were Quinn fined any money?