nazi's and ira were to invade northern ireland

rcunning03

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/E2CAD4CD-5A15-43CB-9940-5CF2E5E66DEE.htm


Archives reveal IRA invasion plan


A high-profile member of the Irish Republican Army planned to invade Northern Ireland with help from Nazi Germany and the government in Dublin.

Secret service documents released on Friday shine new light on the close relations between Irish republicans and Nazi secret agents in the 1940s.

Leading IRA nationalist Frank Ryan became a German collaborator at the start of the one of the world’s most bloody wars, according to archivist Howard Davies.

Recruitment

Ryan had originally travelled to Spain to fight in the civil war there, but landed up in prison when he found himself on the losing side.

While friends were desperately trying to track him down, the Nazis negotiated his release and spirited him away to Berlin.

In Berlin, Ryan met IRA chief-of-staff Sean Russell who had used a steward on an American liner as a go-between to contact the Germans to offer his services as an agent.

Both men were dispatched to Ireland in a U-boat on a mission code-named Operation Taube (Dove).

Russell however died en route and the mission returned to base. One version says ulcers killed him, but a memo in the files suggests Ryan poisoned him because of old political rivalries.

Second attempt

After this escapade, Ryan wanted to return home but he had attracted the attention of Edmund Veesenmayer, a senior official at the German Foreign Ministry.

"[Ryan] was at the same time to approach the Irish government and suggest that the German invasion of Britain would be an opportune moment for the seizure of Northern Ireland"

1940 archive report

"Veesenmayer began to groom him for his role as leader of Operation Taube II, the proposed sequel to the Russell mission," according to a report of the interrogation of a top German saboteur.

Ryan was to use his extensive political, media and trade union contacts in Ireland to stir up opposition to England.

"[Ryan] was at the same time to approach the Irish government and suggest that the German invasion of Britain would be an opportune moment for the seizure of [British-ruled] Northern Ireland," the report continues.

Ryan said he believed Irish prime minister, Eamon de Valera, would back the plan and handed German agents a list of 23 people whom he said would be reliable contacts in Ireland.

They included IRA commanders and Maud Gonne, muse of the poet WB Yeats.

Change in circumstances

But by the winter of 1941, the theatre of war had changed.

With a German invasion of Britain now no longer likely, Taube II needed to be revamped.

German troops were to be on standby in Brest, France, ready to be smuggled into Ireland to stiffen Irish resistance.

The Germans thought Britain might invade Ireland in order to obtain strategic control of southern Irish ports.

"It was Ryan's task to ensure that the Germans would be welcomed as allies and liberators," the report said.

But the plan never came to fruition. Ryan died in February 1944 and was buried under an assumed name in Dresden, leading to decades of controversy about his fate.

Vader

In the time scale you mention the attrocities of nazi germany wouldnt have been known to the IRA. Its not unusual for the IRA to ask for outside assistance so I find the whole thing quite believable.
Somebody on boards has a sig with a quote from gandi in it saying Hitlers not that bad a guy, its funny how wrong somthings are in hindsight.

rcunning03

i wasnt having a go at the ira or anything, i just find it interesting to wonder what would of happened if the nazis had of "liberated" northern ireland.

The way i see it we would either be under german or british rule, also could it of have helped the nazi's win the war ?. The mind boggles at the possibilities.

Meh

Originally posted by Vader
In the time scale you mention the attrocities of nazi germany wouldnt have been known to the IRA.

They'd have been well aware of Guernica and Kristallnacht.

Éomer of Rohan

Sure what does it matter? As the Irish News pointed out, it was called off because the German operatives sent over believed the IRA to be led by a drunk and were themselves a pathetically organised force of idealist nostalgic fops rather than the 5000 gallant heroes the Germans were led to believe.

miju

actually correct me if I'm wrong here but the reason the IRA decided to team with the Germans was because they saw an opporuntiy to be rid of the British.

The Germans wanted a back door into Britain and thats why they were willing to talk and one of the main reasons it was called off was because of the 3/4 German spies that parachuted into Ireland 1 was killed and the rest were captured

Éomer of Rohan

There were two other operatived who weren't caught apparently also; and they believed that the IRA were not what they had been led to believe and reported this back to Germany.

miju

ahh close enough for me ww)

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Sure what does it matter?

It matters because it exposes the 'RA for what they really are. Virulently nationalist, and willing to side with their fellow Nationalist Socialists in Germany to ethnically cleanse Ireland of all that they thought wasn't a true Gael.

Redleslie

Originally posted by rcunning03
[Ryan said he believed Irish prime minister, Eamon de Valera, would back the plan and handed German agents a list of 23 people whom he said would be reliable contacts in Ireland.

De Valera introduced internment for IRA members in 1939 though so this is a bit strange. Frank Ryan was in a bit of a sticky situation. He was almost executed by the fascists in Spain then the nazis took him to Germany hoping he'd be a propagandist. He was said to be Dev's man in Germany during the war so I don't think he was ever a traitor or nazi sympathiser.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It matters because it exposes the 'RA for what they really are. Virulently nationalist, and willing to side with their fellow Nationalist Socialists in Germany to ethnically cleanse Ireland of all that they thought wasn't a true Gael.

That's a really stupid comment. Serious ideological differences have always existed in the IRA, y'know, the civil war and all that. And during the Spanish civil war, IRA men fought on both sides. Naturally, the catholic church supported the fascist side and in fact Ireland was the only country to provide more volunteers for the fascists rather than the republicans. Like I said, Ryan was on the anti-fascist side and got wounded and captured and sentenced to death. It wasn't his fault he ended up in Germany. And sure wasn't De Valera himself one of the most hardcore IRA men ever?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by rcunning03
i wasnt having a go at the ira or anything

I was having a go at the IRA. They deserve to "have a go" at - Over 1500 people were murdered by them, of which over 800 were innocent civilians with no links to paramilitary organisations. Sinn Féin/IRA = Socialist & Nationalist = NAZI. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

Redleslie

Pacifists.... :rolleyes:

dathi1

It matters because it exposes the 'RA for what they really are. Virulently nationalist, and willing to side with their fellow Nationalist Socialists in Germany to ethnically cleanse Ireland of all that they thought wasn't a true Gael.

The present IRA are really an armed Marxist group and if their compatriots in Sein Fein are now anything to go by Nationalism now seems to take second place to socialism.

miju

Originally posted by ReefBreak
I was having a go at the IRA. They deserve to "have a go" at - Over 1500 people were murdered by them, of which over 800 were innocent civilians with no links to paramilitary organisations. Sinn Féin/IRA = Socialist & Nationalist = NAZI. Sorry to be so blunt about it.

and tell me something then ReefBreak without the IRA how would we have the REPUBLIC of Ireland.

I can imagine the campaign without the 'RA

ACTIVIST: please sir can we have our country back
PRIME MINISTER: no **** off so we can treat you all like ****

I mean lets face someone had to stand up for the people of Ireland during the occupation the English treated us with absolute hatred seriously stop being an idiot.
The English killed and tortured WAY more than that during their main occupation of Ireland. THEY ARE THE SCUM

The IRA itself nowadays is obsolete it's a little known fact but one of the main reasons why the IRA cannot disarm as much as everyone would like them to is simply because they have **** all arms left.

How?

Simply the INLA, CIRA, RIRA (you get the picture) members who had mainly defected from the IRA knew exactly where their arms dumps were and as such rather than going out and buying new weapons they just nicked theirs and said "what ya gonna do about it?" (but not as bluntly as that ergo we have the internal Republican feauds. I mean come on you tdidnt think those fueds were over Johhny shagging Jimmy's sister did you?

apologies for going a bit of topic there felt like a bit of rant

ReefBreak

I mean lets face someone had to stand up for the people of Ireland during the occupation the English treated us with absolute hatred seriously stop being an idiot.

IRA apologists like yourself make me want to vomit. It's obvious from your tone and writing style that you're far too young to remember the atrocities commmitted in the Name of Ireland/Defence of Ulster by the IRA/UDA/INLA/UVF at Enniskillen, Claudy, Birmingham, Greysteel, etc. You're just like the Americans during the 70s and 80s in that you've swallowed the pathetic line fostered by Gerry Adams that the IRA were Freedom Fighters and not Evil Terrorist Scum.

Meh

Originally posted by the-raptor
and tell me something then ReefBreak without the IRA how would we have the REPUBLIC of Ireland.

I don't believe that the Provisional IRA had anything to do with the formation of the Republic of Ireland.

I mean lets face someone had to stand up for the people of Ireland during the occupation the English treated us with absolute hatred seriously stop being an idiot.
The English killed and tortured WAY more than that during their main occupation of Ireland. THEY ARE THE SCUM

Ah, the good old "two wrongs make a right" argument...

Victor

Originally posted by the-raptor
THEY ARE THE SCUM

"Were" is the word you are looking for. Any British soldier in Dublin up to 1921 would ahve to be over 100 at this stage. Don't blame one generation for another's mistakes.

yossarin

a little back on topic: the english also had a plan during WW II to invade Ireland.

Both sides had - Ireland is too well placed not to be of stategic importance in defending/invading england.

And sure wasn't De Valera himself one of the most hardcore IRA men ever

one who broke Irelands neutrality by sending fire engines up north after bombing raids there.

miju

Originally posted by Meh
I don't believe that the Provisional IRA had anything to do with the formation of the Republic of Ireland. Ah, the good old "two wrongs make a right" argument...

Two wrongs dont make a right I never said that what I was trying to get at is that everyone always calls the IRA terrorist scum AND THEY ARE but and it's a big BUT the way the English went about things was just the same as a terrorist would do.

Your right ReefBreak I'm only 21 so I don't remember the likes of the Ennisskillen bombings but are you trying to tell me that because I can't remember the bombings (obviously) that I have no right to comment. Thats a stupid comment. In fact my dad introduced me to a women who was caught in the Enniskillen bombing (who died a few years ago) and so I do have SOME albeit someone elses view of that day.

Victor to be blunt SHUT UP the English government are still scum (albeit they are now scum behind the nice face they put on)and you cannot deny that and I'm not just talking about the North Im talking worldwide. And it's still the same generation to some extent IMO

Now I must admit I was a member of Rep. Sinn Fein for a while and I LEFT it has I realised how much both sides were wrong in this whole sorry mess but IMHO the English are just as guilty as the Republicans but they VERY RARELY get accused of being just as bad.

I'd suggest for anyone out there to read Gerry Adams new book. It's UNBIASED (suprisingly) and gives a very accurate account of everything that went on from the start of the troubles right up until a few months ago it's an EXCELLENT, INFORMATIVE and UNBIASED book.

Victor

Originally posted by the-raptor
the English government are still scum (albeit they are now scum behind the nice face they put on)and you cannot deny that and I'm not just talking about the North Im talking worldwide. And it's still the same generation to some extent IMO

you specificly said "The English killed and tortured WAY more than that during their main occupation of Ireland. THEY ARE THE SCUM". Perhaps the "English government are still scum" but they were not the scum 80+ years ago.

miju

Originally posted by Meh
I don't believe that the Provisional IRA had anything to do with the formation of the Republic of Ireland. Ah, the good old "two wrongs make a right" argument...

BTW are you so sure of that Meh? The IRA had nothing to do with bringing the issue of Irish independance to somewhat of an international forum (mainly America which the English were desperate to keep on side) hence DeValera ebing spared execution.

The fact that the British couldn't infiltrate successfully the IRA and that when Collin's "Apostles" killed the British's special sqaud tasked with tracking down the man and arresting/killing him the British took a MASSIVE blow to their ego and confidence

could be just me imagining all of that though

miju

Originally posted by Victor
you specificly said "The English killed and tortured WAY more than that during their main occupation of Ireland. THEY ARE THE SCUM". Perhaps the "English government are still scum" but they were not the scum 80+ years ago.

you cannot be serious

You are honestly telling me they are not the scum of 80+ years ago. Cop on they are every bit if not more the scum of 80+ years ago.

But the issue of how bad they will not be resolved so I think on that issue alone we should at least agree to disagree

ReefBreak

I'd suggest for anyone out there to read Gerry Adams new book. It's UNBIASED (suprisingly) and gives a very accurate account of everything that went on from the start of the troubles right up until a few months ago it's an EXCELLENT, INFORMATIVE and UNBIASED book.

This is officially the daftest thing I've ever read on Boards.ie. So daft in fact, that I may make it my very first signature, in a sort of Quote-from-Éomer-Stylee.

miju

Originally posted by ReefBreak
This is officially the daftest thing I've ever read on Boards.ie. So daft in fact, that I may make it my very first signature, in a sort of Quote-from-Éomer-Stylee.

Pre-tell WTF is so daft about that or is it the fact that your just an ignorant ****er who won't listen to someone elses side of the story and be willing to accept that maybe just maybe you could be wrong?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by the-raptor
Pre-tell WTF is so daft about that or is it the fact that your just an ignorant ****er who won't listen to someone elses side of the story and be willing to accept that maybe just maybe you could be wrong?

The problem with a Shinner's supporter like you, is that I do listen to someone else's side of the story. i.e. Nationalists AND Unionists, Prodestants AND Catholics. You should try it sometime.

Meh

Originally posted by the-raptor
BTW are you so sure of that Meh? The IRA had nothing to do with bringing the issue of Irish independance to somewhat of an international forum (mainly America which the English were desperate to keep on side) hence DeValera ebing spared execution.

The fact that the British couldn't infiltrate successfully the IRA and that when Collin's "Apostles" killed the British's special sqaud tasked with tracking down the man and arresting/killing him the British took a MASSIVE blow to their ego and confidence

could be just me imagining all of that though

Given that the Republic of Ireland was created de facto in 1937 and de jure in 1949 and the Provisional IRA weren't created until 1969, I'd say you're definitely imagining something...

Redleslie

Originally posted by Meh
I don't believe that the Provisional IRA had anything to do with the formation of the Republic of Ireland.

The Provisional IRA had nothing to do with the nazis in 1940 either but unfortunately Reefbreak doesn't seem to understand the rudiments of 20th century Irish history. Never mind some half baked invasion 'plan', Ireland's real wartime scandal was that despite repeated requests from the jewish community, only 60 jews were let into the country during the war, mainly because the catholic church, the enthusiastic supporters of fascism in Italy, Germany and Spain didn't want them.

one who broke Irelands neutrality by sending fire engines up north after bombing raids there.

Yes, my point exactly, what sort of self respecting virulent nationalist IRA murderer gunman (as Dev was, his son Vivion even brought a gun into the Dail in case Cosgrave didn't like the 1932 election result) would help out the dirty prods for the heck of it? Irish history, especially between the world wars, is a lot more complicated than Reefbreak there would like to believe.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Redleslie
The Provisional IRA had nothing to do with the nazis in 1940 either but unfortunately Reefbreak doesn't seem to understand the rudiments of 20th century Irish history. Never mind some half baked invasion 'plan', Ireland's real wartime scandal was that despite repeated requests from the jewish community, only 60 jews were let into the country during the war, mainly because the catholic church, the enthusiastic supporters of fascism in Italy, Germany and Spain didn't want them.

Meh is making a distinction between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. I just call them both the IRA. And I agree 100% with the rest of your point - it was an absolute disgrace and a shameful episode in the history of our country. And we hid behind the cloak of "neutrality" to do it.

Victor

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Sure what does it matter? As the Irish News pointed out, it was called off because the German operatives sent over believed the IRA to be led by a drunk and were themselves a pathetically organised force of idealist nostalgic fops rather than the 5000 gallant heroes the Germans were led to believe.

Reminds me of the "joke".

German Commander in Ireland: "We want you to exterminate all the Irish Jews tonight."

IRA leader "Ah, shur have another drink, we'll work it out tomorrow."

Redleslie

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Meh is making a distinction between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. I just call them both the IRA.

Well you should be more specific. Nobody goes around accusing Enda Kenny of being a goosestepping blueshirt just because Eoin O'Duffy was. Sinn fein won 73 out of 105 seats in the 1919 election but that doesn't mean people voted for whatever it is Sinn Fein say they stand for now.

miju

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The problem with a Shinner's supporter like you, is that I do listen to someone else's side of the story. i.e. Nationalists AND Unionists, Prodestants AND Catholics. You should try it sometime.

are you trying to stir **** or something you ignorant mother****er did I not say that I USED to be a Shinner but NOT ANYMORE

No matter what someone does and tries to change their it's assholes like you who continually tar people / orgs with the same brush. Seriously man try and open your mind it's not that hard you know you just have to be prepared to swallow a bit of your pride and admit you were / could be wrong

Go on just try and say well Sinn Fein are trying to change their ways. But of course your one of these dickheads who probable thinks Sinn Fein / IRA are doing what they are doing now because they have some hidden agenda.

Just consider for a second that maybe Sinn Fein / IRA do actually want peace and want to resolve the situation in the North or is that so hard for you to accept?

Elmo

We were nutral during the war as we would have been able to afford to go into it, plus the whole thing about fight a war againist the British who we had just fought a war with. After all the 2nd world war was an economic war.

Ireland's Government was not the IRA at that time.

I am sure that more the 60 jews were sent to Ireland. (God I hope so). Also most of europe did not know the full effects of WWII on the jewish in europe.

Ireland did not intern the Americans or the British (They were sent to NI), Ireland did intern Germans.

Meh is making a distinction between the Official IRA and the Provisional IRA. I just call them both the IRA. And I agree 100% with the rest of your point - it was an absolute disgrace and a shameful episode in the history of our country. And we hid behind the cloak of "neutrality" to do it.

I would have though that it was a more shameful and disgraceful episode in Germany History and they did it under the cloak of "Taking over the World".

Victor

the-raptor, I think you are over-reacting a little and might need to chill.

Originally posted by the-raptor
are you trying to stir **** or something you ignorant mother****er did I not say that I USED to be a Shinner but NOT ANYMORE

He only said supporters, not members.

Originally posted by the-raptor
No matter what someone does and tries to change their it's assholes like you who continually tar people / orgs with the same brush.

like you tar all things English?

Pot? Kettle?

jesus_thats_gre

You really are taking an overly simplistic view of the involvement the British et all and the IRA had during the troubles. It was a case of each side doing something ridiculous and other side responding to that. Secondly, the period of time it occurred, the standard of living and what was considered to be socially acceptable is totally different to that of the present day...

It serves no purpose to begin insulting the British of the time as they saw the actions of the IRA as a threat to their security, and rightly so. The IRA on the other hand saw the British as the enemy and occupiers of their country. The British saw the IRA as scum and the IRA saw the British as scum. I know the points I made are very simple, but ye should really take a step back and look at the overall picture of what was going on.

As for reading Gerry Adams new book to experience an unbiassed view of the whole thing, BOLLOX! You are brainwashed my friend.

Elmo

It serves no purpose to begin insulting the British of the time as they saw the actions of the IRA as a threat to their security, and rightly so.

How come this is rightly so and this is not?

The IRA on the other hand saw the British as the enemy and occupiers of their country.

In their own minds they were both right.

The british were wrong during the troubles, and much of the blame can be put on the british governments handling of the situation.

The rise of the IRA can be attributed to the lack of civil rights give to Catholics and Nationalist in Northern Ireland by the Protestant and Unionist Government.

If fear and hate had not been brainwashed into the Protestant/Unionist community and civil rights given to Catholics/Nationalist, there would never have been such a thing as the Troubles.

Fine I realise there will always be Extremists on both sides but if those extream views had not been apparent then we would have had peace.

miju

Originally posted by Victor
the-raptor, I think you are over-reacting a little and might need to chill. He only said supporters, not members. like you tar all things English?

Pot? Kettle?

No Im not cos that comment was specifcally directed at me (.. the probelm with Shiiners like you....)

Oh and I'm still waiting for an explaination as to why my post about the book was stupid.

Originally posted by JesusThatsGreat
[As for reading Gerry Adams new book to experience an unbiassed view of the whole thing, BOLLOX! You are brainwashed my friend. [/B]

Have you read the book? can you comment on the in's and outs of it sure do you even know whats it's called.

How dare you call me brainwashed simply because I am of the opinion that a book is unbiased, informative and honest. Cop the **** on man your accusation that I'm brainwashed is both highly insulting and without merit.

Elmo

book is unbiased, informative and honest.

I am sure the book is Informative and Honest. However I don't know how unbias it can be, I am sure there is some bias coming from the book (Like most if not all books).

But then I would have to read the book to find this out.

Elmo.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Daithi1
The present IRA are really an armed Marxist group and if their compatriots in Sein Fein are now anything to go by Nationalism now seems to take second place to socialism

I have never heard such ill informed rubbish!

Sinn Féin while they like to play the socialist card to gain support in certain areas are FAR FROM SOCIALIST, preferring to approve neo-liberal reforms and health reforms resulting in less ambulances for rural populations in the North; Sinn Féin are a neo-liberal nationalist party and anyone that says otherwise needs to look up the definition of socialism.

ReefBreak

are you trying to stir **** or something you ignorant mother****er did I not say that I USED to be a Shinner but NOT ANYMORE

From my experience, this is also typical Sinn Féin behaviour: Hurl abuse at a person when they don't agree with you.

miju

Originally posted by ReefBreak
From my experience, this is also typical Sinn Féin behaviour: Hurl abuse at a person when they don't agree with you.

well then your obviously not very experienced because Ionly ever met about 1 or 2 people like that when I used to be a member of R.S.F

And what didn't I agree to?

Maybe the phrase "Shinners like you.."

Point being your either trying to stir the **** or are stupid personally I'm leaning towards stupid but I'm gonna give you the benefit of doubt and say your just stirring **** ergo I'll refuse to rise to any of your future comments about me regarding this topic.

Now away you go ReefBreak abd bother me no more

Éomer of Rohan

Not that I am trying to act in place of JC, Gandalf or Swiss but comments like those will get this thread locked so please desist for the sake of the rest of us.

As for ReefBreaks comments about listening to both sides of the 'argument', I think it fundamentally misses the point; the point being that the 'argument' is being perpetuated by well paid, well fed buggers in plush offices who see financial benefit in the only real division that matters for them; the sectarian devision they each try to force down the throats of those who see no division. The Unionists and the Nationalists are both very guilty of this, and it is in the interests of the working class that they decide to make history irrelevent to such an extent that their culture is protected while their gripes can be dealt with in a modern context to ensure such things do not happen again - they can best do this by shutting up the politicos who continually try to stir the situation, regardless of whether they fly a red and blue flag or a green and orange one.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Elmo
Ireland's Government was not the IRA at that time.

Yes but De Valera had of course been in the IRA, split from them in the civil war and then had to deal with another split when he became Taoiseach. Reefbreak seems to be claiming that the IRA/Sinn Fein has always been a national socialist/nazi organisation but that's just incorrect.

I am sure that more the 60 jews were sent to Ireland. (God I hope so). Also most of europe did not know the full effects of WWII on the jewish in europe.

I read it in John Cooney's excellent book John Charles McQuaid: Ruler of Catholic Ireland. I will double check. Isaac Herzog wrote letters to De Valera pleading for jews to be allowed to enter the country but the church didn't want 'em. I think the official excuse was that their presence would lead to a rise in anti-semitism.

rcunning03

does anyone believe that the brits would of given us home rule after the first world war as they promised, if we hadnt of gone to war with them, or would they have gone back on their promise, just like they did with the arabs about creating an arab state(and creating the middle east as it is now)/

miju

well seeing as they now still from time to time go back on deals you coudl nearlly count on it that they would have reneged on the deal what was that phrase someone coined "Killing home rule with kindness" explains it all really

ReefBreak

Originally posted by the-raptor
well then your obviously not very experienced because Ionly ever met about 1 or 2 people like that when I used to be a member of R.S.F

Aren't Republican Sinn Féin the splinter group from Gerry Adam's Sinn Féin? And do they not have connections to the CIRA and RIRA? The same CIRA that planted the Omagh bomb? I hope you knew that when you were a member. And most 'RA-heads I've ever met generally get very angry when you start to needle their reasoning for supporting the 'RA. For example...

Originally posted by the-raptor
And what didn't I agree to?

Maybe the phrase "Shinners like you.."

Point being your either trying to stir the **** or are stupid personally I'm leaning towards stupid but I'm gonna give you the benefit of doubt and say your just stirring **** ergo I'll refuse to rise to any of your future comments about me regarding this topic.

Now away you go ReefBreak abd bother me no more [/B]

I'm not trying to stir shít, but when you defend IRA scumbags by saying thay "had to stand up for the people of Ireland" you should be prepared to argue your case. The IRA never did much defending. Intentionally bombing, murdering & maiming innocent civilians, yes. Defending, no.

miju

ah come on can one of the Mods do something about ReefBreak obvious **** stirring

ReefBreak

Originally posted by the-raptor
ah come on can one of the Mods do something about ReefBreak obvious **** stirring

I am genuinely not trying to stir it up. I am simply arguing my case against the IRA. I'll ask you again: when you were a member of RSF, did you know that they had connections to those responsible for the Omagh bombing: the RIRA and the CIRA?

rcunning03

reefbreak

i'm not having a go or anything, i am geniunely interested in your answer, do you think we could of gained independence through totally peaceful means with no violence ?

ReefBreak

Yes I do. Take India for example. But that's not my issue. The problem is that the IRA intentionally murdered innoncent civilians and then used history or "defending Ireland" as a way to excuse their actions. In fact the IRA have always used atrocities by so-called Irish martyrs as a way to excuse their own actions, and it makes me sick. "The Old IRA murdered/ethnically cleansed prodestant families living in the 26 counties in the name of Irish Freedom, so don't give out to us when we do it today."

rcunning03

but the best we would of got peacefully would of been home rule, we still would be british subjects and not a republic, or do you think that still being british is better than all the loss of life?

ReefBreak

Originally posted by rcunning03
but the best we would of got peacefully would of been home rule, we still would be british subjects and not a republic, or do you think that still being british is better than all the loss of life?

Again, that's the typical reasoning of the typical IRA apologist: "Without the loss of innocent civilian blood, we would still be brits". First of all, you simply don't know if that's the case. In fact, we were still technically Brits up to the 1930s, when Ireland declared itself a Republic and left the Commonwealth. I believe we'd probably have still gained independence in Ireland even with peaceful means, only it would have been later in the century - mainly because the population of Southerm Ireland was mainly Catholic and Nationalist and that was what the people wanted. The IRA, however, seem to forget that the majority of the North was (and still is) Prodestant and supported the Union with Britain, but still pressed on with murdering their point of view home.