Prisioners should be made to work

Villain

Maybe this is not a suitable thread for Politics so feel free to move.

I was reading today about the Minister for Justice closing 2 prisons to save money and I began think of what I think would save money and teach the prisioners a few lessons.

My solution: Chaingangs of prisioners working on the roads and other state projects. I'm sorry but I think prisioners that have been sentenced for anything over a year should be made to work.

The cost of building roads is gone out of control in this country so is the cost of paying to keep prisioners in jail so why not send them out to work???

Peace

Agree 100% - they should pay their debt to soceity, not create futher cost to tyhe country.

Working on roads/railway lines would be a great place to start.

sovtek

I that with or without pay?

Villain

without pay

Syth

It wouldn't a totally free way to get work done, though. You'd have to supervise them a lot. And you then might have to train them etc. Is most of the cost of roads labour? What about buying the land. Mabe they could be put to work in sweatshops, making Nike shoes, and GAP sweatshirts. Or cleaning up the place, they could be dustmen.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
without pay

That's known elsewhere as slavery.

Villain

Well I ave the road as an example as the poll says woring for the state so whatever is suitable, and I'm sure the Prison officers that supervise them in jails could do the same when there working.

I don't persume to know the ins and out of seting such an operation up I just think its an idea that could be made to work.

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
That's known elsewhere as slavery.

No they are free to go once they have served their time.

If it makes you feel better pay them a tenner a day.

dahamsta

Arse. You can take one vote back off the poll. I'm all in favour of getting tough on prisoners, but using them as slaves is ridiculous.

adam

Villain

ok pay them minimum wages then

star gazer

Trade Unions would never let it happen and unfortunately they appear to have enough power in the present circumstances to block it. I think for a small wage a lot of prison workers would want to do something productive and make a few bob. It would be close to slave labour, but prison is not about freedom it is about loss of freedom.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
No they are free to go once they have served their time.

If it makes you feel better pay them a tenner a day.

I'm sure that system would never be abused for cheap labor.
What would make me feel better is to have a better social system that would help to cut down on the prison population as well as de-criminalization of drugs to further that.
Then have access to rehabilative services like education and training.
Then you'd have a better crime rate and less of a burden on the state.
Only in severe circumstances does harsh punishment cut down on crime.

DeVore

More in line with Humanities then Politics so I've moved it there.

DeV.

Villain

Well as I said sovtek I don't think I have all the solutions on the ins and outs of this system.

I just think:

Prisioners should give something back to the state.
It cost a lot of money to keep them in prison so I think they should work.
Sitting on their asses all day in prision will not change them some hard work might.

sovtek

Originally posted by star gazer
Trade Unions would never let it happen and unfortunately they appear to have enough power in the present circumstances to block it. I think for a small wage a lot of prison workers would want to do something productive and make a few bob. It would be close to slave labour, but prison is not about freedom it is about loss of freedom.

Its also about rehabilitation and being returned to society.
I'm not saying that prisoners should be idle but that they shouldn't be forced into slave labour or for what used to be called "wage slavery".
It should also be voluntary.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
Well as I said sovtek I don't think I have all the solutions on the ins and outs of this system.

I just think:

Prisioners should give something back to the state.
It cost a lot of money to keep them in prison so I think they should work.
Sitting on their asses all day in prision will not change them some hard work might.

I'm not saying that I have all the answers either.
Like I suggested, offer more rehabilitive services like training and education, which according to a recebt doccy I saw on Mount Joy, they don't currently have.
I don't see that busting rocks for little or nothing is going to rehabilitate or send them back to society reformed.

ixoy

Sure, let them give something back to the society they damaged. I've no problems. Pay them minimum wages if it makes you feel better, assuming they actually do the work to a level that's fair.

Actually, anyone here watch HBO's "Oz"? They regularly had storylines about making prisoners work. One of the main characters - Kareem Said - was an activist - and constantly brough up the issues of rehabilitation (including fair pay) for workers whilst lobbying a very uncaring governor. He made the point about exploitive behaviour being demeaning and concepts of standard wage. It was quite interesting and it's something to watch out for in the upcoming season as it certainly has merit for this thread.

Cork

In the US prisoners make jeans & things. It is a great idea.

Being deprived of liberty is one thing but prisoners should make a contribution back to society.

Evil Phil

Article 4 is relevent: http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

So you have to pay them minimum wage.

That being said I do think its a good idea and surely they can work within the prisons. Road building projects or, for example, the Luas provide wages for decent people and I'd hate to see those wages being lost to criminals. If there is work they can do though, it might help them get jobs when they are released and it certainly would help the day pass. Giving them access to education or serving a trade while inside should also be made available to them.

They cannot be forced into it though, they have to choose to work or study.

So while I think work and education programs will and do work within the prison system I don't agree with the thread topic. They should not be made to work. Why? Its a violation of their human rights.

The Corinthian

Arbeit macht frei?

Redleslie

According to John Lonergan, the vast majority of Mountjoy's inmates have addiction and/or psychiatric problems. Digging holes does not cure addictions or mental illness unfortunately. He said he'd need the resources of the Mater hospital to make any impact at all.

There are work and education opportunities (Link to Irish Prisons' site) but afaik, they're not compulsory. Presumably because forcing people like these to attend classes they have no interest in would make it impossible for anybody to ever learn anything.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Peace
Agree 100% - they should pay their debt to soceity, not create futher cost to tyhe country.

But there already ARE procedures in place with this end in mind ............... Community Service. A judge requests the Probation Service to prepare a report on a defendant's suitability for a Community Service sentence. If the convicted person is deemed suitable (not a public danger, an unlikely possibility of flight, etc) then the judge makes a Community Service Order which entails working pro bono publica for anything up to 240 hours.

Incarcerating people in prisons is, I agree, a financial burden on the State. But, these people have already been deprived of their freedom ......... wanting to make 'em slaves as well is IMO a step too far; a bit too "far-Eastern". Tolerate that, and next thing we'll be demanding that we surgically extract their kidneys for re-sale to wealthy Arabs!

Imposter

How about paying them a fair wage for the work they do and then deducting from this some/most (if not all) of the costs associated with incarcerating them. Any money left over afterwards is theirs. After all these are people who have commited a crime and should not be treated the same as everyone else (within reason). Forcing them to work would mean they are giving back to society and might actually act as a deterent to commiting a crime in the first place. Such deterents would probably be far more effective than those that exist (or ought to exist) at present.

BuffyBot

Any money left over afterwards is theirs.

Unless they are very hightly paid workers, it's very unlikely there would be anything left. In 2002 the average cost of keeping a prisoner was €84,750. So really that plan wouldn't work out very well, would it?

Evil Phil

^^ What buffybot said.

And forcing them to work is slave labour/forced servitude which, as I have said before, is a violation of their human rights and as such is illegal.

The Corinthian

You kids and your human rights... honestly...

I suppose we'll have to just stick to using people on work experience from Fás then :rolleyes:

Imposter

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Unless they are very hightly paid workers, it's very unlikely there would be anything left. In 2002 the average cost of keeping a prisoner was €84,750. So really that plan wouldn't work out very well, would it?

Originally posted by Evil Phil
And forcing them to work is slave labour/forced servitude which, as I have said before, is a violation of their human rights and as such is illegal.

So then it's fine for every taxpayer to fund their stay but their 'rights' prevent them from contributing towards these costs.
Add to that the only reason they are there is that they themselves have done something which is illegal and quite often has impacted on someone elses rights.

Evil Phil

Their rights don't prevent them from contributing anything. Their, and by that I mean our, rights protect them from being forced to work.

I have already stated in this thread that I think work programs are a good idea. But you cannot force them to work.

Add to that the only reason they are there is that they themselves have done something which is illegal and quite often has impacted on someone elses rights.

And for this they have been denied their liberty. Now you cannot force them to work but parole or early release reviews could, and should, take into account the prisoners willingness to be involved in work while incarcerated. This involvement would reduce the costs incurred by the taxpayer and help the prisoner payback their debt to society. This would be a contribution, forced servitude is not.

Villain

Well I have to say I disagree that they can't be made to work, if there physically capable then it should be mandoratory that they work.

These people are in Prision for breach of the law so I think they should be made pay there way.

Young offenders might think twice about breaking the law again if they knew they were going to jail to be worked instead of sitting in their cells shooting up!!!

seamus

I would agree to some form of karma system. The prisoners can volunteer to work, and in return, they get credits towards some kind of benefits - Extended visiting time, etc etc (I have no idea what kind of leisure facilities they have\use).

No-one's forcing them to work, and they're getting an incentive to work.

As people say, you also have to be careful not to step on the trade unions' toes. Legitmately trained people could be put out of jobs. Ideally, you want them doing things that are beneficial to the community, build skills, and have low impact on the economy. Manufacturing clothes which the Government can then supply at a low cost to families on the dole, or below the poverty line for example.

Peace

If we can focre them into a tiny room for up to 30 years why can;t we force them to pick up a shovel and dig a few holes.

And don't start with the slavery argument because its not slavery. They are costing society upwards of E84k a year to keep under guard so it seems balanced if they repay some of theat cost.

Evil Phil

It is slavery. If you're making them work without paying an income its slavery. If you're forcing them to work for an income its forced servitude and they, as are we, are protected from such by their basic human rights.

The can't be forced to work, but they can be given incentives to. Prison, from what I understand, is pretty boring most of the time. Working makes the time pass quickly and that not only benefits society on the whole but is kinder, imho, to the prisoners.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Evil Phil
I have already stated in this thread that I think work programs are a good idea. But you cannot force them to work.

Of course, the issue I would have with this that people should not be forced to work. The reality is that we are all forced to work; otherwise we starve and cannot pay rent (or are permanently on social welfare - let’s not get started on that one).

So, should one mirror that scenario in prisons? Better conditions for those who work? An accumulated wage for when they leave prison? Or worse conditions for those who refuse perhaps?

Originally posted by Peace
If we can focre them into a tiny room for up to 30 years why can;t we force them to pick up a shovel and dig a few holes.

Because they were sentenced to incarceration, not forced labour. The law could be changed to allow that type of sentence, but this cannot change the sentence of existing prisoners retrospectively.

And don't start with the slavery argument because its not slavery. They are costing society upwards of E84k a year to keep under guard so it seems balanced if they repay some of theat cost.

Your point is flawed. The same economics of feeding and housing individuals applied to slavery in the past.

Xterminator

I personally believe that all able bodied prisoners shold be made to work, to cover part of their incarceration costs.

Futher i would support the establishment of a CAB stly body, that siezed the assets of prisoners, to defray the costs of prison.

As long as thety didnt sell a family home, most other property, stocks, and holdings would be fair game.

X

Peace

Well, if we're calling it slavery then i'm 100% in favor.

People get sentenced to hard labour in the US afaik...or was that just a fiction of ramboII....

Maybe a law could be adjusted to allow for the prisoners to work for say a euro per day?? It would be paid work then....and therefore not slavery. Ofcourse to be fair they should also be given the choice to do the work.

As far as giving them minimum wage, i don;t think that would be appropriate. Then they'd be sent to jail for whatever reason and then start earning just the same as people working in society plus the priosoners would have no food bills/electricity bills/mortgage repayments....So while people on the outsoide struggle to keep their heads above water and obey the law, these guys are sitting pretty in jail having a free ride and earning a few bob to go with it??

If these people are being removed from society then there should be a cost to them. A euro per day sounds reasonable to me.

The Saint

I think separating rubbish for recycling would be a worthwhile job for these people. Its doing a service that is not in place, it is for the greater good of the country and could be done within the prisons themselves.

Villain

Originally posted by The Saint
I think separating rubbish for recycling would be a worthwhile job for these people. Its doing a service that is not in place, it is for the greater good of the country and could be done within the prisons themselves.

Now theres an Idea, great idea Saint!!!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Peace
Well, if we're calling it slavery then i'm 100% in favor.

Actually it’s technically indentured servitude as slaves are property that may be bought or sold as capital assets and while the contract of a indentured servant may be traded, the individual themselves cannot.

My point was simply that you didn’t seem to have a notion of what you were discussing and that your entire argument is based upon your own moral indignation with little substance to back it up.

People get sentenced to hard labour in the US afaik...or was that just a fiction of ramboII....

Well, if they do it in the US it must be right... :rolleyes:

Maybe a law could be adjusted to allow for the prisoners to work for say a euro per day?? It would be paid work then....and therefore not slavery.

Actually prisoners are already paid a similar amount that is ultimately given to them upon their release. Anyhow, why would you bother, given you’ve already stated that you’re 100% in favour of slavery?

So let’s recap: First you deny it’s slavery. Then you accept and support it as slavery. Now you want to make a cosmetic change to it so that you don’t have to call it slavery.

Do I detect a wee bit of intellectual dishonesty here..?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Arbeit macht frei?

Godwin's Law?

Hobart

Originally posted by Peace
Well, if we're calling it slavery then i'm 100% in favor.

Maybe a law could be adjusted to allow for the prisoners to work for say a euro per day?? It would be paid work then....and therefore not slavery.

Originally posted by Peace
Of course to be fair they should also be given the choice to do the work.

Picture the decision process. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Godwin's Law?

Does that not refer to calling somebody Hitler or a Nazi? Now I could be wrong, as I have'nt read it in some time.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Godwin's Law?

I was wondering how long it would take someone to spot that one

Villain

Godwin's Law prov. [Usenet] "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin's Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful.

Peace

I simply believe that when you take from society you should be forced to give back to society. Currently the method of punishment costs E84k per year per person of tax payers money. That doesn't seem to be repaying society in my eyes.

I don't have a problem with forcing prisoners to be productive with their time, however some people were uncomfortable with the idea of being to close to slaver/indentured servitude. So to make the masses feel a bit better pay these prisoners a euro a day AND give them a choice.

Also i never said i was in favour of slavery, i said that if were CALLING it slavery.... Obviously slavery would be cruel.

So you feel ok with forcing a person to stay in a cell for something like 23hours a day but you don't think it would be ok to get them out and put a little back into society. To me it would be worse to be forced into a cell rather than getting out , perhaps beyond the prison walls, and doing something constructive and mayube learning a usefull skill for when they get released. I'm not talking about horse whipping them into working harder i'm just talking about a bit of work.

Do I detect a wee bit of intellectual dishonesty here..?

Ssshhhh Corinitan, I don't think we need insualts here do we?? We're trying to have a grown up conversation.:rolleyes:

Evil Phil

Originally posted by Peace
So you feel ok with forcing a person to stay in a cell for something like 23hours a day but you don't think it would be ok to get them out and put a little back into society.

I've already said that giving them the choice of work is kinder to the prisoners than making them sit in a cell for n hours a day. However, they are in prison they are not on holidays. Its not supposed to be easy otherwise it wouldn't be a deterent.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Xterminator
I personally believe that all able bodied prisoners shold be made to work, to cover part of their incarceration costs.

Futher i would support the establishment of a CAB stly body, that siezed the assets of prisoners, to defray the costs of prison.

As long as thety didnt sell a family home, most other property, stocks, and holdings would be fair game.

X

Yes if Macker is forced to hand over his 5 year old rusty syringe, 3 packets of noodles, slightly soiled spare tracksuit and all his CRH and Vickers shares, we can be confident that he'll see sense and change his criminal ways.

Prisoners just end up being released into the same crappy environment with the same problems they had when they went in. If forced labour somehow prevents them from re-offending the fine, bring itin. It's a strategy that hasn't worked very well in the past but so what.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Peace
Maybe a law could be adjusted to allow for the prisoners to work for say a euro per day?? It would be paid work then....and therefore not slavery.

But what type of work? Where would it come from? Many employers would probably be wetting themselves at the possibility of winning prison work contracts and getting someone to work for a euro a day. Even illegal immigrants cost more than that.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Peace
I simply believe that when you take from society you should be forced to give back to society. Currently the method of punishment costs E84k per year per person of tax payers money. That doesn't seem to be repaying society in my eyes.

Irrelevant. No one is denying that there should be a means for prisoners to earn their keep. The discussion is the manner in which such a policy be executed.

I don't have a problem with forcing prisoners to be productive with their time, however some people were uncomfortable with the idea of being to close to slaver/indentured servitude. So to make the masses feel a bit better pay these prisoners a euro a day AND give them a choice.

That’s being intellectually dishonest in the present discussion. Reasoned argument is not about getting a warm fuzzy feeling, but about full and open discussion. Please refrain from using deception to salve our fragile sensibilities in future.

Also i never said i was in favour of slavery, i said that if were CALLING it slavery.... Obviously slavery would be cruel.

You inferred that it was immaterial whether it was or not slavery in your eyes.

So you feel ok with forcing a person to stay in a cell for something like 23hours a day but you don't think it would be ok to get them out and put a little back into society. To me it would be worse to be forced into a cell rather than getting out , perhaps beyond the prison walls, and doing something constructive and mayube learning a usefull skill for when they get released. I'm not talking about horse whipping them into working harder i'm just talking about a bit of work.

Irrelevant. No one is suggesting the above scenario, so please stop using it to sanitise what your saying.

Ssshhhh Corinitan, I don't think we need insualts here do we?? We're trying to have a grown up conversation.:rolleyes:

It wasn’t an insult, it was an accusation.

Villain

Well the State could charge normal rates for contracts and use the money to pay for the prision service.

Villain

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Irrelevant. No one is denying that there should be a means for prisoners to earn their keep. The discussion is the manner in which such a policy be executed.

Just a point of order(as they say in tha Dail)

Well to an extent, when I started the thread I was kinda more interested in whether or not people thought the prisioners should work for the state, I wasn't really looking to go inot the ins and outs of how it work. As at present the majority just sit in their cells.

Peace

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Irrelevant. No one is denying that there should be a means for prisoners to earn their keep. The discussion is the manner in which such a policy be executed.

That is the whole argument, Its also the motivation for the irish1 to start the thread.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

That’s being intellectually dishonest in the present discussion. Reasoned argument is not about getting a warm fuzzy feeling, but about full and open discussion. Please refrain from using deception to salve our fragile sensibilities in future.

I wasn't using deception.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

You inferred that it was immaterial whether it was or not slavery in your eyes.

To be honest i wouldn't care if people were either given the choice or forced to work. Both seem reasonble to me.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Irrelevant. No one is suggesting the above scenario, so please stop using it to sanitise what your saying.

That is the actual scenario. That is reality, please try and stay in contact with the discussion.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

It wasn’t an insult, it was an accusation.

Accuse away my good man. Whatever keeps you happy.

Jam

My two cents:

I think it's a good idea, but I have to agree that introducing it and forcing all prisoners to do it isn't right, but I think if it were introduced ,with a six month warning it would be OK. 'If you're able bodied, commit a crime and get arrested after [date] you will be forced to do four hours labor mon-fri'. Would be a deterrent not to commit a crime after the date, no? Not only would your freedom be taken away, but you'd have to do unpleasent hard work (but then, by definition hard work is unpleasent). They would get paid, under minimum wage so it's not slavery. After all, you commit a crime, you don't and shouldn't get full rights.

As for those that are arrested before the date, it's volentry. If you volenteer you earn money, something to help the time pass quicker, bigger meals, it looks very good to the parole board, and whatever else. You don't volenteer, you don't work, you get minimum rights, like the smaller meal.

As for prison being a rehabilitive place, surely it being unpleasent experience (hard labor, lack of freedom) would be part of the rehabilitive process? Wanting them to not want to go back.

The idea of sorting recyclables is a good idea, but the only thing wrong with it is allowing prisoners access to sharp splinters of glass is not a good thing (TM). I would imagine that they use plastic cutlery in prisons, so you don't get innmates stabbing each other. And the thing about making cheap clothes is it's not a particularly uncomfortable situation, it might be unpleasent depending on the enviorment or something. The good thing about breaking rocks is they can't slit each other's throats with a sledge hammer, it makes them sweat and puts an ache in their muscles.

The only thing I can think of is hiring them about as cheap farm labour, put them to work in a field for half the minimum wage, then at the end of the season or whatever, half the vegetables go back to the prison kitchen (reducing the cost of keeping them in prison and giving them a reason to work, they get to eat what they grow) and the other half the farmer gets to sell and/or the farmer gets some sort of tax break or something.