Swords - Take your Dish down - now!

Sven

I received a registered letter today telling me to remove my sat dish on receipt of the letter or to face fines including imprisonment if I don't do so. Fun is that the fines are all in Irish Pounds and not in Euro!

Now this surley is against my right for a sat dish under EU law and against the fact that they are actualy not allowed to do any Administrative obstacles if I take any possible action to avoid any visual and aesthetic impact of satellite dishes while still getting a good quality of reception.

I can not mount the dish on the left side of the house (the pathway is not wide enough) and I have no right side at the house so that is impossible too.

It was mounted by the installer in hight of the 1st floor to the left of an outgoing window extension so it is strictly not even on the most front part of the house.

Now call me crazy but I am not simply accepting the "take it down" approach they give me but my knowledge of local law is way below 0 so anybody here that could share his experience in this matter or that can recommand a lawyer that can deal with stuff like this.

Or does anyone know that if I call Sky and tell them that they will come and remount that dish somewhere else (like on the roof). I paid the full 75 Euro Installation, so maybe I don't have to pay the full price again.

Any input is greatly appreciated.

/Sven

Couch Potato

Who sent the letter - county council, corporation ???

Sven

Fingal County Council.

I live in Swords right outside the "real town" of Swords.

watty

MMDS dishes can be just as big and on big poles more ugly.

The roof is a silly place.

What size of dish?

How high off ground and far away from public pedestrian traffic?

Surely this is not the first correspondance on the matter?


Do you have a front or rear garden?


How far does dish stick past the nearby window extension?


On the face of it the letter seems unreasonable, but we don't have any background.


How many people in Swords/Finglas with
A) MMDS dish
Giant BBC aerial on short pole
c) Giant BBC aerial on massive mast / guyed pole

have been asked to take them down?


Does your wall ajoin directly a public way?

ciderandhavoc

If you read the smallprint of the Sky contract, you'll see that they explicitly specify that they are not responsible for any planning issues with regard to the dish.

Technically you do need Planning Permission. I have of some cases that house sales have been blocked because of the dishes for planning violations.

Sven

This is the 1st correspondence in this matter! That is what I find funny.

It's a normal minidish from SKY.

My house is one of the last in a row in the estate, opposite the front of my house is a field, no houses or anything else. And the field is fenced and Trees seperate us too.

The house is a good way away from the street as we have a front garden, we also have a back garden.

There is not through traffic on the road in front as the street ends where the estate ends (about 4 houses to the left if you stand in front of the house) and only people who live in the street are usualy accessing it.

The next public traffic is a good mile away outside the estate.

The only way you can actualy see that there is a dish is when you are in the esate standing in front of the house or passing it, you can't even see it if you stand on the field due to the trees.

If you look from the front the dish is actualy on the right of the window extension that is going from ground to 1st floor and it is not sticking out. It one draws a line from the window extentions to the dish the dish is not sticking out, the window extension is.

The dish is mounted near to the top of the building next to the top of the window on the 1st floor.

There is on other dish in the same row of houses but that house can clearly be seen from the main road and the opposite building (they do have some sort of GAA club opposite them) and they have also been asked to take it down.

There are dishes all over our estate otherwise and they are mostly mounted on the back of their building but clearly visible as their back is viewable from the walk ways in the estate. Some other people have the dish in front but I had not opportunity to ask them if they received letters too.

Jip

My understanding is that you only need planning permission to put the dish on the front of the house, if it's on the side or back it's ok (I hope!). I don't know what the story is with chimneys though.

Contact the individual who sent the letter and ask to view his/her home to see what planning infractions you might see there

Also contact one of your local councillors, there is an election next year.

When I read this, I said for flips sake, it would be more in their line of duty to give out aboutsomething other than a tiny minidish!

It may also be in breach of your constitutional rights as how can something like this be imposed on you when it's not being equally applied in every other council area.
I know some of my local councillors like their Sky sports too much to have any time for silly little rule enforcements like this.

mm

carrolls

problem solved Sven.;)
http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/services/services/antenna.htm

I'm not sure if its law yet, but your rights are probably being infringed.

Capt'n Midnight

My understanding on this
They can have local ByLaws for this sort of stuff.. - maybe contact the residents association ?

If any part of the Dish projects past the front of the house (not window bays) then you need PP.
You can mount it on a chimney behind the ridge line ( bolting dishes to chimneys is something I would not recomend )

If it is on the side or the back or in the back garden then you do not need PP unless the dish is bigger than a certain size (2m ?)

Couch Potato

Somebody - a neighbour etc. may have complained to the council about this .... I would ask politely next door ?

From reading other threads in the past I think that you only need planning permission if the dish is not on 'gable' end of the house.

What is the exact definition of 'gable' I am not sure.

Sven

It's not the person next dort that complained, I talked to him because he wants a dish too. And the person on the right did not complain either, so it something sinister going on.

Doesn't the Freedom of Information act allow me to get hold of the files and see who complained if someone complained?

I think I am going to the citizen information buerau next week and see what they say.

I want my foreign TV, does Fox news count as foreign enough?

Thanks for all your feedback, I am going to investigate this further and certainly put an update here.

Couch Potato

Sven let us know ...

I wonder if this is just the start of it ?????????

Lennoxschips

Mount one of those plastic GUINNESS signs on both sides of the dish, and then put another one in front of the dish, hooked on to the two other ones. It seems they are allowed (look at any Irish high street) and it will cover the dish grand while the plastic allows the signal through.

Or put a plastic box around your dish that says CHUBBS.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Or put a plastic box around your dish that says CHUBBS.

ROFL

Tony

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Mount one of those plastic GUINNESS signs on both sides of the dish, and then put another one in front of the dish, hooked on to the two other ones. It seems they are allowed (look at any Irish high street) and it will cover the dish grand while the plastic allows the signal through.

Or put a plastic box around your dish that says CHUBBS.

Carlsberg dont do local planning officials:)

byte

Originally posted by Tony
Carlsberg dont do local planning officials:)

ROFL

My dish (one of them anyway) is on the front of my house! I sure as hell hope the Donegal CoCo don't tell me to take it down! I'll tell them to F off and spend their time fixing the crappy roads :ninja:

eth0_

Originally posted by carrolls
problem solved Sven.;)
http://europa.eu.int/comm/internal_market/en/services/services/antenna.htm

I'm not sure if its law yet, but your rights are probably being infringed.

What, so the EU can overrule Irish planning laws? I don't think so. Face it, a satellite dish on the front of a house looks horrible, and in most cases you can still get good reception by mounting the dish on the side or back of the house, or even in the back garden mounted on a fairly small pole!

Blocks of flats are even worse, a tower block with 50 dishes dotted all over it, talk about skanky.

The link you posted mentions "Concerns of an architectural and town-planning nature"...I don't see where it mentions that you have the legal right to put the dish wherever you want, more that everyone should be allowed a dish but without it looking ugly or contravening local planning laws.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by eth0_
Face it, a satellite dish on the front of a house looks horrible, and in most cases you can still get good reception by mounting the dish on the side or back of the house

it looks a damn sight better than a big MMDS aerial on a huge pole in all fairness. if the person owns the property, these councils should have no right when it comes to something like a satellite dish that has been installed properly. didnt they try this in Dundalk as well. how did that go on?

Paddy20

eth0_,

Face it, a satellite dish on the front of a house looks horrible.

!.

Not half as horrible as some of the disgusting "Tattoos & Piercings" that should be of more concern to you as Moderator of the said forum!.

P.:ninja:

radxxx

What, so the EU can overrule Irish planning laws?

Ehm, i think they can. Unless you signed a contract where it says `You cant have a dish`

Ron

brucealmighty

Sven I live in Swords too and a couple of years a ago 4 my neighbors whos; houses face my house had the same problem as you. In the end they all moved their dishes and the while I never asked what made them comply with this letter they would not have done so lightly. It does not need someone to complain for fingal co council to send the letter, you would expect they could find something more constructive to do with their resources. Best of luck in your fight but I think you are on to a loser.

watty

This is discrimation.

A sky minidish is not big.

The Only places on my house that will work are on front or front / side of Chimney above roof ridge.

The north half of a west facing house.


One peson does have a dish on a pole on rear wall about 4Ft about gutter. Since the angle is about 24degrees of beam, this can "see" past the ridge of the roof.

Local Planning is I think being applied in a way that favours MMDS dishs on Chimney poles.

I'd argue this is a bit mean.

Respray the dish with car paint the same shade as the house wall (does it no harm). Ask council then to view.

Take photos of it and unsightly MMDS and BBC or RTE aerials in the area.

A pole at back wall of house is preferable to the Chimney, as final resort of moving (or bottom of garden).

My 3 dishes are not visible from the street.

My 7ft long 10 element Amatuer radio yagi aerial (motorised rotator), 10ft amatuer radio colinear, two MMDS dishes, and two TV aerials on chimney are a lot more ugly than a minidish, yet do not contravene any planning law...

crawler

I saw a dish recently that had been painted with a "red brick" marking and mounted on a chimney - it was actually very well done & I was going to take a picture of it....

It's out newgrange direction off the Slane Road if anyone lives out that direction??

Sven

The county council has given us their opinion in a phone call.

Summary is:

EU directive is nice but we are in Ireland and if you take the front of the house (for whatever reason) you have to have planning permission.

If you put it at the side of the house, no part of the dish is allowed to stick out of the frontline of the building (window extensions do not count).

If you put it on the chimney (poor Santa) it is also not allowed to be on the front of it, it needs to be on either side of it.

Timeframe:
They give us another week to fix this otherwise we get an enforcement letter and we get to pay or go to jail.

About the complaint:
And we found who complained about it. We have a new GAA Clubhouse down the road which makes a lot of noise and some people complained about that and took them to court so in retaliation they informed the Council about building code violations. Up to now I did not stick my head into that subject, but now I am considering.

So, anybody any idea, what it will cost me to get my dish moved from the front to either the side of the house or the chimney?

/Sven

Sven

A quick call to Sky about it (to see if I get the same answer like the person down the road) und guess what, I got the same answer.

You are still within your warrenty, call the Irish Installer and get him to move the dish for you (dohh..).

Asking her for the price, she informed me that there will be no charge as I am in warrenty and that the Irish Installer should have known the law of the land and she actualy appologized for the problems this might cause me.

I guess she just wanted to get ride of me, but I will call the company that installed the dish and see what they say.

/Sven

DMC

Originally posted by Sven
About the complaint:
And we found who complained about it. We have a new GAA Clubhouse down the road which makes a lot of noise and some people complained about that and took them to court so in retaliation they informed the Council about building code violations. Up to now I did not stick my head into that subject, but now I am considering.

Hi Sven,

I'd fight this battle on the letters page of the Irish Times or do a Joe Duffy, if I were you, and point out the pettiness of it.
Thats just low. :mad:

GAA + Councillors = Bad cocktail.

David Stewart

When I signed up for Sky I was contacted by the installer who told me right off the bat without being asked that they were not allowed to put the dish on the front of the house. Clearly your installer was negligenent in this regard. You might have been able to take him to small claims court for any additional cost incurred in moving the dish (because he didn't do his job properly). But since you aren't being charged that's a moot point.

freetoair

All is not lost ! Sven, if you can prove that the dish has been there for more than 5 years then you don't have to take it down. Once in object has been in place for that length of time with no complaints then it is accepted as being permanent.
All you need is a receipt from an installer going back 5 years or proof that you were paying a Sky subscription 5 years ago.

I'm sure some installer on this forum could come to your aid and issue you with an installation receipt for around that time !!

Tony

I always tell people what the ramifications are for placing the dish on the front of the house and I tell all my subcontactors to do the same. ON many occasions customer still insist of placing it at the front so save on bracket costs etc

If a bulider builds something for you that contavenes planning laws will you take him to court too? Come on David surely the householder must take responsibility for dish placement if he/she agrees with where it is installed. I really dont understand how you can say an installer is not doing his job when the customer is present when dish is being installed. Surely personal responsibility should play a part. How can you say "Clearly your installer was negligenent in this regard." when you were not there when the install took place, nothing clear about it.

Tony

Originally posted by David Stewart
When I signed up for Sky I was contacted by the installer who told me right off the bat without being asked that they were not allowed to put the dish on the front of the house. Clearly your installer was negligenent in this regard. You might have been able to take him to small claims court for any additional cost incurred in moving the dish (because he didn't do his job properly). But since you aren't being charged that's a moot point.

Tony

Its very easy for a sky rep to say its the installers fault no charge etc They can only speak legitimately about their own contractors Sierra etc

Another contibutor to boards recently told me that sky told him to contact me as his card was not working correctly!!
Turned out they forgot to send the correct signal

Unbelievable incompetence on their part.

Tony

Originally posted by Sven
A quick call to Sky about it (to see if I get the same answer like the person down the road) und guess what, I got the same answer.

You are still within your warrenty, call the Irish Installer and get him to move the dish for you (dohh..).

Asking her for the price, she informed me that there will be no charge as I am in warrenty and that the Irish Installer should have known the law of the land and she actualy appologized for the problems this might cause me.

I guess she just wanted to get ride of me, but I will call the company that installed the dish and see what they say.

/Sven

Sven

I actually don't mind paying (part) the move (maybe I can combine it with a Sky+ Installation) the fact is just, that 4 people have 6 opinions in this.

The local counceler says, the dish is okay.
One installer says, the dish is okay the next one says no.
One inspector of the county council says, it is fine there because the window extension is the frontline of the house and hence the dish is not ont he front and the next says otherwise.
The EU Citizen direct line has another opinion speak they say if mounting it on the chimey is too much work and would cost more than mounting it otherwise and there is no other place due to the layout of the house/estate than it is okay according to the directive (quoted earlier).

The complaining party (Gaa club) has a dish on the front of their building too and they did not get a letter.

This is polictics on one level and also waist of money on side of the County Concil, where is the harm of me having a dish there when my neighbours have no problem with it and there is no public way.

I still think is is unfair and I certainly will go on fighting it but it looks like it might be better to move the dish.

I know who I am not going to vote for in the council elections.

Tony

Originally posted by Sven


The complaining party (Gaa club) has a dish on the front of their building too and they did not get a letter.

Do I understand this correctly Sven, the GAA club made the complaint? Why not object to their dish unless they withdraw their objection.

Tony

sceptre

Originally posted by Sven
One inspector of the county council says, it is fine there because the window extension is the frontline of the house and hence the dish is not ont he front

I don't know if it'd make any difference but is there any chance of getting that guy to sign a letter saying it's OK?

(and make use of the fact that the GAA has a dish on the front as well (they don't have to pay a higher sub as a non-household do they? (if they do I'll bet they're not paying that)))

secret_squirrel

I wouldnt rely on what one inspector says, the local rumour mill has it that Fingal CC planning department has gone all nazi-like lately and basically nothing is now getting past them. I've heard of at least one planner that (alledgely) has left over it.

Even if one planner signs off on it they can be overruled by a senior planner

Tony

Originally posted by sceptre

(and make use of the fact that the GAA has a dish on the front as well (they don't have to pay a higher sub as a non-household do they? (if they do I'll bet they're not paying that)))

Actually they do pay a higher sub, that is if they are using a legitimate business card and not a residential one.

Tony

telecinesk

The GAA club have some cheek to complain. What about the noise coming from it.
Id take legal advice and drag Fingal into court.
As Damo says get onto JoeDuffy or some media. Its ridiculous, sky dish is tiny compared to a MMDS antenna.
Fingal are just throwing their weight as the bin collection noise rumbles on..
What has Ireland become these days. (Benifit in kind for those who bring work van home for weekend!, ridiculous) Glad I dont live there anymore..

Good Luck, D

byte

It's written somewhere on the Sky contract (and I think on the page that comes with the card) that the person who is getting the installation is responsible for any planning issues or something to that effect. It's up to the subscriber-to-be to sort out any planning permissions, etc.

d-j-k

That is hillarious considering that Fingal CC's area must have some of the worst planning and most hideous suburban sprawl in Ireand.

Sat dishes can look a little ridiculous but there is no reason why you can't sucessfully camoflague it .

Place it low down the chimney and use a black dish over slates or get it coated to match your tiles. In France they even have minidish type dishes that are available in colours to match roof slates.

I can understand a planning objection if the dish is on the front of a historic building or a terrace house etc. But it sounds like you're in a housing estate!

if the GAA club is objecting for some illegitimate reason you can prob. take legal action against them.

However, it is realatively easy to install a pole in the back garden and mount the dish on top of it.

MMDS dishes (the mesh variety) arn't exactly great works of beauty either. Nor are the old high gain antennas used to pick up BBC..

Are your CC in league with the cable company?

Call Joe Duffy!

d-j-k

Also threatening to fine you in IR£ is about as legitimate as sending you a bill in groats!

Refuse to pay on the basis that they charged you in a non-exsistant currency!

Mike 1972

Maybe someone in the planning dept owns shares in the cable company ?

The only time I would say anyone has grounds for complaining about a satellite dish is when someone puts a black one on the wall of a white house

It is possible to get "globe" or "flat panel" dishes which although are no smaller than an ordinary dish have the advantage that the gobdaws in the council probably wouldnt know what they are

Xcom2

Can you not run an extension lead out the window and hang a lightbulb under the LNB.
This way its your front door illumination.

Sorry...

Personally I would report the GAA club for their dish and check if they are paying a higher price for their sub.

secret_squirrel

do it do it do it...nothing like inflaming a neighbourhood feud

Can I be nosey and ask which bit of swords it is?

Sven

I am in an area called "Glen Ellen" opposite the old Celistica (Motorola) plant.

secret_squirrel

yep I found that out today myself by asking around the N County dublin mafia..

Boclad

Do not put plastic GUINESS sign on front of your house if living in Swords area , G.V. Wright (your local T.D. ) may take a dim view .Where is Ray Burke when you need him . Anyone got a lend of a brown envelope ?.

Mike 1972

Very funny Mike, but libellous, as he hasn't gone to court yet!

David Stewart

Originally posted by Tony
I always tell people what the ramifications are for placing the dish on the front of the house and I tell all my subcontactors to do the same. ON many occasions customer still insist of placing it at the front so save on bracket costs etc

If a bulider builds something for you that contavenes planning laws will you take him to court too? Come on David surely the householder must take responsibility for dish placement if he/she agrees with where it is installed. I really dont understand how you can say an installer is not doing his job when the customer is present when dish is being installed. Surely personal responsibility should play a part. How can you say "Clearly your installer was negligenent in this regard." when you were not there when the install took place, nothing clear about it.

Tony

Sorry for not replying before now but I haven't been on the board for a while. My point was that if the installer knows that the position of the dish is illegal but does not inform the householder that it is so, then there could be a case for negligence. After all the installer is the professional and is expected to be an expert in their chosen profession.

And this is perhaps the nub of the matter. I don't know anything about planning laws but I expect the people I hire as experts to know about them. For instance, you ask would I sue the builder if he built me something that contravened the laws. Maybe not, but I would probably sue the Architect as I would have employed him to design a structure that conformed with the law.

David

Tony

Thanks for the reply David. I think we must draw a distinction between planning law, which varies locally and the law of the land. Using the term "illegal" is an unfortunate term to use as their is nothing in the law of the land about erecting satellite dishes.

An installer should be an expert at satellite installation and should be aware of the general guidelines in relation to planning in the local area but untimately it is the homeowner or tenants decision as to dish location.

A dish installer is just that and not a planning official

You say you know nothing of planning laws but surely if you are having work carried out on your house you should make yourself aware of the relevant regulations.

It goes back to my point of taking responsibilty and not jumping to legal recourse everytime something does not go your way.

Thanks for your views

Originally posted by David Stewart
Sorry for not replying before now but I haven't been on the board for a while. My point was that if the installer knows that the position of the dish is illegal but does not inform the householder that it is so, then there could be a case for negligence. After all the installer is the professional and is expected to be an expert in their chosen profession.

And this is perhaps the nub of the matter. I don't know anything about planning laws but I expect the people I hire as experts to know about them. For instance, you ask would I sue the builder if he built me something that contravened the laws. Maybe not, but I would probably sue the Architect as I would have employed him to design a structure that conformed with the law.

David

Mike 1972

well its been to court so can I say it now

ciderandhavoc

Originally posted by Boclad
Do not put plastic GUINESS sign on front of your house if living in Swords area , G.V. Wright (your local T.D. ) may take a dim view .

Heh, he may think its a pub. :rolleyes: