Switzerland makes a stand

dathi1

It looks like the Swiss multicultural ideal that has been espoused here in the last few months is on the rocks. Common sense has prevailed and lets hope it has some impact on our ridiculous attitude to mass illegal immigration here..http://www.euronews.net/create_html.php?page=detail_info&lng=1&option=1,info

MDR

ah good ole common sense,

when the country has problems blame the immigrants, it must be there fault, the foreigners, just look at them with their strange ways, milking the system, no interest in working.

I don't doubt we have immigration problems most European Countries do, I reckon its a bit of a waste of time trying to sort it out alone, we should club together and sort it out on an EU-wide basis (very unlikely you would get the uk on board for this).

Irelands problem, is France's problem before us, is Italy problem before France's etc etc etc ..... lets blame the Italians .....

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
It looks like the Swiss multicultural ideal that has been espoused here in the last few months is on the rocks.

Yeah, if that article was in any way accurate.

it failes to mention that the Swiss "Far Right" party is one of the less right of the right-aspected parties. In general, its considered the bourgousie party over here. Also, to say it is anti-immigration is somewhat incorrect. It is anti-immigration in the current economic climate.

Secondly, it fails to mention that while it did gain 11 seats and is now the most-represented party in the Bundeshaus, it was already the strongest party before the election (or joint-top, with another right/moderate party).

Thirdly, the comment about leaving government "if it does not get its way" is taken completely out of context about who gives up a cabinet seat.

The Swiss Bundesrat - which is elected by the Bundeshaus - is traditionally made up of 2 representatives of each of the three strongest parties, and 1 other chosen from the remaining parties.However, this breakdown has remained unchanged despite significant shifts in who the strongest parties are.

As a result, the SP have the strongest party for two elections running, but are currently limited to a maximum of 1 seat. They have said that they should be entitled to a second seat in the Bundesrat, and want an upcoming vacancy made available to them rather than the less-popular party who is entitled to 2 seats.

If this is not done, then they will no co-operate, and to be perfectly honest, they're dead right. Can you imagine if Ireland had a system whereby with FF holding the numbers of seats it does, there was a mandate saying it could hold no more than 1 ministerial position, whilst a party such as Labour or the PDs who have far lesser support get to hold more. Thats a joke.

And finally, despite the anti-immigration dig there is no way any moves on immigration etc. can be made by the swiss government without a national referendum, so it is farcical to imply that the representation in government is in any way significant when it comes to this. Bear in mind that this safety net allows people to vote for a party they are in general agreement with, whilst still leaving them the ability to oppose that party on key issues should they wish. So one can not even deduce that growing support for a party equals growing support for one of that party's many policies - you need to have seperate studies to connect the two.

But even if there is a connection, it is far more along the lines of "our economy is in trouble - we really can't afford more immigrants right now" then - as MDR suggests "its all those immigrants' fault".

But I guess that without some sensationalism, it wouldn't have been news-worthy.

jc

dathi1

Also, to say it is anti-immigration is somewhat incorrect. It is anti-immigration in the current economic climate.

Swiss People's Party leader Cristoph Blocher said: "I am not against legal and sensible immigration. What we are against is the influx of illegal migrants masquerading as political refugees. In Zurich alone more than half of the new arrivals are on welfare. According to a government report some 80 percent of the drug dealers are foreigners. If my opponents say I am against that kind of "overforeignization," they're right. Don't forget that almost 20 percent of our resident population consists of foreigners."

bonkey

The SVP focus on two major areas - we want hard-working immigrants, we don't want criminals. Then, hidden inside most speeches / quotes is some small "oh, and we don't want immigranges who cost us money".

Right now, the average swiss person has seen a middle-of-the-road government be in charge while the economy went down the tubes. They have seen immigrant populations rise from 1-in-8 to 1-in-5.

They - the people - are now saying "we cannot afford any more". Is it any wonder that they vote for the party who says the same?

Will Eckler, an SVP member, said: "We need foreigners to work in Switzerland and they are well paid, but we don’t need scroungers who cost money, and the criminals should be kicked out or interned."

Its hard to disagree with parts 1 and 3 of that statement, but part 2 is the economically targetted one. When the country is doing well, you can't argue that you can't afford things that you clearly can afford. Back when the economy was doin gok, crime and general racist scare-mongering was the message, and it wasn't very successful. Now that the economy is suffering, people are getting affected by expenditure on areas such as immigration welfare, and are beginning to say "we cannot afford to put ourselves in punury in order to be the good Samaratins the rest of the world is unwilling to be". Its hard to disagree with that either.

It also shows that the message is economically shifted, in order to strike a resonant chord with more people....as I suggested.

There was big news about the Swiss narrowly defeating a referendum for what would have been the most restrictive immigration laws in Europe a short time ago. It was couched in the same "oooh - look at how multiculturalism is failing in Switzerland" language that you seem to be driving at here. I always find it funny considering that the opinion in Switzerland is "its time that the rest of those fsckers in Europe started carrying the can a bit more instead of expecting us to pay for so much of it".

Personally, I'd wait until you have 20% immigration in your country before starting to discuss what constitutes a failure of multiculturalism in Switzerland. If the Swiss didn't let a single non-national into the nation for the next 20 years, they would still have a higher percentage of immigrants than most other nations....and yet people would bill that as a failure or problem with Swiss multiculturalism.

jc

Lennoxschips

"Don't forget that almost 20 percent of our resident population consists of foreigners."

Yeah, and most of them are the world's filthy stinking rich who are claim tax residency in Switzerland. I'd have thought that they were financing Swiss public services.

The few thousand yearly immigrants from economically less developed countries have negligible negative effects on the economy. But they are an easy target for senseless moronic parties.

sanvean

Originally posted by dathi1
lets hope it has some impact on our ridiculous attitude to mass illegal immigration here

Except that we don't have one (or at least the government doesn't).

I would doubt that Blocher - and daithi1 - would have a problem with the rich immigrants, although i'd love to hear him explain why.

dathi1

when the country has problems blame the immigrants, it must be there fault, the foreigners, just look at them with their strange ways, milking the system, no interest in working.

well 450 million (I reckon its probably twice that) a year would go a long way on bin tax and health care.

Irelands problem, is France's problem before us, is Italy problem before France's etc etc etc ..... lets blame the Italians .....

We're now responsible for Italy's geographical location?

The few thousand yearly immigrants from economically less developed countries have negligible negative effects on the economy. But they are an easy target for senseless moronic parties.

If anybody related to you is in dire need on post natal care, social welfare or even housing and a non national is given priority status for being an asylum seeker ...you'll have the same attitude?

I don't doubt we have immigration problems most European Countries do,

na...we're just in the top 3 on European illegal immigration numbers.

bonkey

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Yeah, and most of them are the world's filthy stinking rich who are claim tax residency in Switzerland.

No, they're not.

jc

MDR

well 450 million (I reckon its probably twice that) a year would go a long way on bin tax and health care.

I don't know that it would, the health system got an extra 1/2 billion the budget before last, with no noticeable improvement. We need reform not scapegoats.

We're now responsible for Italy's geographical location?

No, but we can't ignore the fact that all our immigration problems are inter-twinned, and it will be difficult to fix one without fixing them all. We need pan-european policy on immigration, a strict and fair pan-european policy, its pointless to try and hide before the first-point of entry directive at this stage.

f anybody related to you is in dire need on post natal care, social welfare or even housing and a non national is given priority status for being an asylum seeker ...you'll have the same attitude?

Would I, you are presuming alot, a recent example, a friend of mothers, a single mum, was recentily offered a house in Darndale, and all the rumours flew around at the time, that she was supposed to get a house somewhere nicer, but immigrants got it, etc ... just the rumour mill at work, our housing list has more to do with the un-sustainable price of housing rather than immigrants.

na...we're just in the top 3 on European illegal immigration numbers.

I don't doubt we are, given that we relatively speaking have more jobs than most on offer, we would of course attract more, but I would still like a hard statistic to back this claim up, if you please.

I notice you are covientily ignoring 'Bonkey'.

dathi1

I don't know that it would, the health system got an extra 1/2 billion the budget before last, with no noticeable improvement. We need reform not scapegoats.

ok..lets go 50/50..how about health reform and stopping illegal immigration....then everybody wins.

We need pan-european policy on immigration, a strict and fair pan-european policy, its pointless to try and hide before the first-point of entry directive at this stage.

Ok...but we will have to rely on the European parliament to do this??? lets say at the current rate of movement...hmm about 2050 they might start to do something about it.
We could get some courage..take on our Eurocrat friends and make a stand for a start.
Look how the Australians do it.

just the rumour mill at work, our housing list has more to do with the un-sustainable price of housing rather than immigrants.

yep...in my area alone ..where we hold out on a 310,000 mortgage..5 non national families escaping political and economic persecution (hehe)... on my road alone get them rent free...No rumour there..just plain facts.

I don't doubt we are, given that we relatively speaking have more jobs than most on offer, we would of course attract more

Now I am talking about illegal immigration....so this Jobs for immigrants on work permits is a different story altogether.

but I would still like a hard statistic to back this claim up, if you please.

(exel file saved)...if i get the link ill post it.
Applications Per 1,000 of Population 2002
Britain 110,700 1.8
Germany 71,127 0.9
France 50,798 0.9
Austria 37,074 4.6
Sweden 33,016 3.7
Belgium 18,805 1.8
Holland 18,667 1.2
Ireland 11,634 3
Italy 7,281 0.1
Denmark 5,947 1.1
Spain 6,179 0.2
Greece 5,664 0.5
Finland 3,443 0.7
Luxembourg 1,043 2.6
Portugal 245 0.02

I notice you are covientily ignoring 'Bonkey'.

No ..I was glad to see he agreed with the first and last part of Cristoph Blocher's statement.

Lennoxschips

If anybody related to you is in dire need on post natal care, social welfare or even housing and a non national is given priority status for being an asylum seeker ...you'll have the same attitude?

Yes, my family left the northside of Dublin in 1986 and immigrated to Europe. For me to criticise asylum seekers would be fairly hypocritical now wouldn't it?

dathi1

Yes, my family left the northside of Dublin in 1986 and immigrated to Europe.

They were seeking assylum?
ps: we joined the EEC in 71.

MDR

ok..lets go 50/50..how about health reform and stopping illegal immigration....then everybody wins.

I wouldn't mention the two in the same breath, it would detract from the seriousness of the health situation.

We could get some courage..take on our Eurocrat friends and make a stand for a start.

Lock em all up in Mosney ?
I do like the idea of detention centres, hold em there for a couple of weeks in homes with excellant conditions, on site medical services, education, recreation etc, get their application sorted out quickily.

Our current record on detention centres though isn't good, are we prepared as a state to put the capital investment in to do it proparily ? probabily not ? I can just see the headlines now, "€15 millions spent on LUXURY detention centre for SCROUNGING assulym seekers, while mum of four waits seven years for new leg".

I can't help but feeling though that this would be much better, and more effecientily sorted out on a larger scale. All our immigration problems are interconnected, it would re-miss to ignore this.

Now I am talking about illegal immigration....so this Jobs for immigrants on work permits is a different story altogether.

We had no illegal immigration when we where poor, did you not notice this ? they are attracted by the huge amount of blackmarket jobs on offer, have you not see the 'send money home to X cheapily' ads ... ?

but I would still like a hard statistic to back this claim up, if you please.

Do your stats not put us further down the list than third ... ?

Is the fact some of them are being housed on your street the real problem ? They have to live somewhere while their claims are processed, is this another example of the old Irish, not in my back yards, no incenerators, no dumps, no roads, no assulym seekers please need apply ....

dathi1

.

it would detract from the seriousness of the health situation.

You mean Holis street being jammed up with the immigrant situation?

We had no illegal immigration when we where poor, did you not notice this ?

You took the words right out of my mouth.

they are attracted by the huge amount of blackmarket jobs on offer, have you not see the 'send money home to X cheapily' ads ... ?

So you've even no problem with the black market? (no pun intended) Now I thought it was something to do with assylum shopping...sorry seeking.

Do your stats not put us further down the list that third ... ?

I'm ****e at maths but I see we're even higher than Spain which is further south than we are and has roughly 6-7 times the population we have...I'll settle for 4th

MDR

I'm ****e at maths but I see we're even higher than Spain which is further south than we are and has roughly 6-7 times the population we have...I'll settle for 4th

No you where right the first time, I read the figures wrong way around. Aren't quite as easy to read outside of excel.

You mean Hollis street being jammed up with the immigrant situation?

Hollis street seems to be coping quite well, and is a fairly unique situation in our health care service, the ambulance service is also disproportionately affected by immigrants (treated like a glorified taxi service in many instance). However 99% of the health services problems are bog to do with immigration, and I am loathe to confuse that issue.

So you've even no problem with the black market? (no pun intended) Now I thought it was something to do with asylum shopping...sorry seeking.

They would also be attracted by the idea that if they actually secured asylum status, their chances of getting a decent job would be quite high, and up until recently there was also the chance that if you had a child her you would be allowed to stay, I doubt word has trickled back to the countries sending us the majority of applicants yet.

The reasons generally amount to the fact they have a better chance of a better life in Ireland. We did for many generations when official channels of immigration where open to us, none are open to do them, we shouldn't vilify them for trying to improve their lot.

And its this villification that bothers me, the problems of our services shouldn't involve assulym seekers ...

dahamsta

Switzerland, France, Britain, Holland, etc, etc. We seem to be turning into a whole continent (+ outlying islands) of racists. What's going wrong?

adam

MDR

Its a couple of things, we aren't automatically racist by wanting to tackle the issue, and I amn't implying that you said we are.

Because our existing political representatives have failed to the satisfactorily tackle this issue, and this issue goes directly to our in-security and fear of the unknown, its almost tribal and instinctual to protect against the invading hordes (tongue in cheek at invading hordes), we are increasingly seeking Representative who will protect us and remove the 'unknown' stranger from our midst.

dathi1

Its a couple of things, we aren't automatically racist by wanting to tackle the issue, and I amn't implying that you said we are.

I agree.

We did for many generations when official channels of immigration where open to us, none are open to do them, we shouldn't vilify them for trying to improve their lot.

Now come on...as has been pointed out ad infinitum on this board, mass migration to a continental landmass in the past doesn't mean we should have an open uncontrolled borders to non EU immigrants. Future generations of Irish people shouldn't have to pay the social and economic price of such a disastrous set up.

Jaffus

IGuess at that in a few years to come when the Irish peace process has come to an end and we are all living nice and peacefully with are brothers and sisters of the Protetant North that we will soon find we have plenty of time to hate another section of our community which at that point will be the decendants of the immigrants of the then early 2000's.......
It's Good to see the disscusing Immigration Policy in Switzerland because once we have the time for it here we will find ourselves in a different type of Peace Process one between us and our Black Brothers and Sisters and needing to call upon more than ever events of (well who really care's about it) "Switzerland".

dathi1

we will soon find we have plenty of time to hate another section of our community which at that point will be the decendants of the immigrants of the then early 2000's.......

absolutely not...if we tackle the issue of uncontrolled immigration now (there's still time) and make sure we have a proper integration system for non national immigrants living here now...everything should be rosey.

MDR

Future generations of Irish people shouldn't have to pay the social and economic price of such a disastrous set up.

I made no such implication, please read what I said, not what you think I said.

I was pointing out that, yes deal with assulym seekers appropriately, humanily, but don't seek to vilify them for seeking to improve their lot in life, I was just pointing out that we did the same thing for many generations when legal channels where open to us, no legal channels are open to them, so they still try for something better, you can't blame them, but they still need to be dealt with by due process, and certainily don't include them when discussing our health care system etc.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
na...we're just in the top 3 on European illegal immigration numbers.

Is it just me, or should that not have read "European Union" ???

There is still a small difference in scope

Its amazing how pedantic you can become about these things when you live in Western Europe and outside the EU....

jc

Jaffus

It was uncontrolled immigration of the Irish to America that has brought to that country in the future JFK,NY police force and a very patrotic section of people,if that sort of uncontrolled immigration helps builds a superpower then let them come in the thousands and let us make for ourselves an Irish Muliticultural Superpower.....remember they are Imigrants today.....tomorrow their children are Irish just like you and I.
Uncontrolled Immigration is just a scare word. I dont think and actually I know that those in charge of this country will never allow enough Immigrants into our country to compromise their postion, the problem is not with Immigrants its with those we already have here.
And as for my last post for the most people will only face a problem when it is slap bang in their face, scaring people about uncontrolled immigration NOW will make things harder in the future to deal with....education is the one and only way to deal with immigration not scaring people of an invading hoard which needs laws and detention centres to stop.

Sparks

Originally posted by MDR
We had no illegal immigration when we where poor, did you not notice this ? they are attracted by the huge amount of blackmarket jobs on offer, have you not see the 'send money home to X cheapily' ads ... ?

Not to be the fly in your ointment MDR, but when we were poor, we were the illegal immigration problem....

MDR

Not to be the fly in your ointment MDR, but when we were poor, we were the illegal immigration problem....

Your not the fly in my ointment on this occasion, what you say is very true ....

mr_angry

ok..lets go 50/50..how about health reform and stopping illegal immigration....then everybody wins.

If you can think of a cost effective way to do so, I'm more than willing to listen. But I doubt that you do. I suppose its not your job to come up with solutions after all, is it? Just to slag off the other people that don't...

gimme

links to a gerry adams story now...

MDR

If you can think of a cost effective way to do so, I'm more than willing to listen. But I doubt that you do. I suppose its not your job to come up with solutions after all, is it? Just to slag off the other people that don't...

do explain more please ?

Raskolnikov

I don't see why immigration has to be an issue. Obviously, giving a carte blanche for anyone to seek citizenship is not an option. Equally, completely closing off our borders isn't a viable choice. We need to make provision for the labour that we need while also ensuring that genuine asylum seekers can be helped. We should also set aside a quota for economic migrants which is set by the state of our economy. What that quota would be set at, I don't know. My only fear about immigration is that if it's allowed to go unchecked, our inner cities would become ghettos of the alienated and unemployed (you could argue that some areas of Dublin are like that already).

gurramok

Ghettos in inner cities mostly populated by immigrants is a govt policy failure.
What is happening is that 'natives' cannot afford to buy/rent property in the city centre and some suburbs to some extent and have to move to commuter towns while alot of immigrants are housed in the city centre where rent is mostly paid for them by social welfare.
This can cause resentment which has to be tackled in a reasonable way and not knocked down as racist resentment.
A controlled and effective immigration policy needs to be implemented fairly

Switzerland, France, Britain, Holland, etc, etc. We seem to be turning into a whole continent (+ outlying islands) of racists. What's going wrong?

Tackling and debating the issue is not racist. Govts across these countries should tackle peoples fears about the issue.

Lennoxschips

Yes, my family left the northside of Dublin in 1986 and immigrated to Europe.

They were seeking assylum?
ps: we joined the EEC in 71.

You know what I mean when I said Europe, don't be pedantic.

And no, we weren't seeking "asylum" (pedantry is your specialty, it would seem). But I do come from an immigrant family and I have been called a burden, a sponger and everything else by the usual unsavoury types over here, despite my family being hard workers and paying full taxes. So as an immigrant myself, I don't appreciate the whole "evil evil immigrants filling up our hospitals" line.

Perhaps if native Irish people made more of an effort towards new immigrants then they might be able to take their place in society. In Holland they ignored their Turkish and Morroccan immigrants and didn't do anything for them for 30 years and now they complain thay they "don't integrate enough".

But then again, Ireland is very good at not looking at the lessons that were learned on the continent 30 years ago. Just look at the Irish transport plans... roads roads and more roads.

MDR

Just look at the Irish transport plans... roads roads and more roads.

half truths ....