Bin Tax and equality

Boston

Kinda wanted to go off on a different line of thinking here.

Often the argument put forward for imposing bin tax is that your neighbour shouldn't have to pay for your waste. Ignoring the fact that our society is based on subsiding each other, lets examine this new very self centered way of thinking in Ireland.

If where going to have bin Tax then I feel the tax on each person should reflect the actual cost in collecting and disposing of the rubbish, at the moment where only looking at the cost of disposing of the rubbish, but I propose a tax based on the distance traveled to your home from the depo. It clearly will cost more to collect rubbish from someone who lives a mile from the depo, then it will if you live 15 miles, as such the person living 15 miles away should pay 15 times as much for their bin collection as the person living one mile away, that's fair isn't it? furthermore those willing to deliver their rubbish to the depo themselves should have a decrease in the cost of their bin tax, as the major cost in the waste management process is the cost of keeping the trucks on the road and the wages of the men on those trucks

Cork

In West Cork - they have a micro chip on the bin. Every time it is lifted by the lorry, it is weighted. Householders get a bill every 2 months based on the net wieght of the bin.

This system is equitable and fair. It encourages recyling as people would be inclined to use bring centres more.

There is also a waiver scheme in existance down there.

This scheme is going to be operating in North Cork from January next.

RainyDay

Hi Boston - Your view on this matter wouldn't be at all biased by the fact that your place of residence overlooks a waste depot (as you mentioned on another thread), would it?

Boston

what has that got to do with the cost of collecting, the cost of collecting 1000kg of waste is not much higher then 100kg, its the distance travelled, amounth of fuel used to get there and back and the wages of the men, are the ben men getting paid on comittion?

Boston

of course it would rainyday, i mean why the hell should i pay the same as someone 30 miles away when clearly the cost of collecting my waste is far less then the cost of collect theirs. Also there should be an option to choose who collects your waste, i know of a private waste contractor that would compress my waste for me, then dispose of it.

RainyDay

How much of the total cost of waste collection actually relates to the 'transport' bit, and how much relates to the cost of disposal plus the cost of putting men on a truck. I presume that if the truck goes off on a long round trip then collects your waste on the way back to the depot, you'll be happy to pay your waste charge in proportion to the distance travelled to pick up your waste?

Boston

well if they take a stupid route thats their bussiness, i'm working of a radius here, its the fairest way. I dear say the majority of the cost would be the collecting, although that has fallen dramatically recently due to the decrease in the number of men per most trucks. Also the cost of disposal has increased. Point is though that i shouldn't be subsidising anybodies wastefull habites and i demand this system is introduce, also that people in rural areas pay several times what people pay in urban areas, something to the order of ten

monument

What happens when the bins from about 3-4 counties are been sent to a supper dump – every one gets charged more???

“i'm working of a radius here, its the fairest way”

No, it’s not, that’s silly (and the idea is in the first place), anyway if your idea was to be implemented it would be done by distance traveled by the bin truck.

“well if they take a stupid route thats their business”

Maybe it's the householders fault for not buying a house next to a dump?

Also charging on weight can also be seen as unfair, as more toxic and slower degradable contents can sometimes be lighter.

On the wider issue of bin tax – I was first in the view of lock up the protesters; however, I was wrong and ill informed… In the past FF promised to get rid of what was known as “house rates” (which covered water, bin charges etc...), they did and to compensate they increased central taxation. Later they broke that first promise, reintroduced direct taxation and doing so they are now double taxing.

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
I dare say the majority of the cost would be the collecting

I would doubt that your correct there, but I'd be interested if anyone could provide figures.

Interesting idea, I must say. As a matter of interest, would you be willing to accept the same on services which disadvantaged you because of your location???

jc

Boston

The point of the thread was to show that one of it is fair, glad you realised where being taxed twice.

monument

Originally posted by Boston
The point of the thread was to show that one of it is fair, glad you realised where being taxed twice.

Not every one does.

If you're talking to me(?), I did say "On the wider issue of bin tax –".

Boston

Originally posted by bonkey
I would doubt that your correct there, but I'd be interested if anyone could provide figures.

Interesting idea, I must say. As a matter of interest, would you be willing to accept the same on services which disadvantaged you because of your location???

jc

such as bonkey? i live on the main bus/dart routes, i've my choice of hospital, school, shops, telephone exchange is about 2km away. Basically i've every facility i would need or expect it ireland, and i don't see why i should be paying for someone else. Just look at those saints in ireland trying to charge for installation based on distance from the exchange.

As for accuracy. I know for a fact that before they started weighing trucks going into dumps collection was the main cost, you had five/six men working on collecting and then fuel costs and hte cost of the truck. But since they started charging by wieght i think its gone up to a hundred euro a tone, if not more. Also with the new bins its only three men on each truck, so wage costs are lower. Point remains a fair though collection costsmoney and if collecting my rubish costs less then somebody elses then i demand a reduction in my bill. The point on route is taken, so therefore i should be allowed to deliver

BrianD3

the person living 15 miles away should pay 15 times as much for their bin collection as the person living one mile away,

What a ridiculous idea. Imagine all the other things that you could apply this to.

For example, people living far away from the post office could pay a higher TV licence than those living next door to it - because of the cost of paying an inspector to travel to their house

Likewise, if you're posting a letter to someone who lives in the middle of nowhere, you pay a higher charge than if you're posting to someone who lives next door to their local post office.

See how ludicrous this sounds?

BTW I doubt that the cost of transporting rubbish a long distance is as significant as you say. I don't have any figures but I imagine that this cost is tiny compared to the cost of landfill, given the price of land nowadays.

BrianD3

Boston

hmm i like the idea of a TV licence based on the amouth you watch RTE or TG4, sounds like a great idea, i don't watch either so that will save me afew quid. Also nice example of the postage think, last time i looked there where different rates based on distance.

As for the waste thing, in one breath you say theres no figures for collection cost, and in the next its so tiny it doesn't matter, what one is it?

I see this getting confusing, so lets change it a little, if i deliver i should pay less then someone who gets it collected, in fact i should have the choice of what to do with my waste as i never signed a contract with dublin city council to collect it, so i don't know why they threaten to sue me.

Sangre

Originally posted by Boston
i live on the main bus/dart routes, i've my choice of hospital, school, shops, telephone exchange is about 2km away. Basically i've every facility i would need or expect it ireland, and i don't see why i should be paying for someone else.

Wtf??

So what you're saying is you paid for those facilities by yourself? With no one elses money? I doubt you even pay tax and if you did it would be from a minimul part time job.


Ok let me put this to you, there are 2 house, one on each side of the garage collection. The truck goes left and does all the house to the left and then comes back and goes right, having travelled a good 20 miles before he reached the house beside the garage collection? Should he stilll be charged less because he lives closer? Or would you rather the truck went left, right, left, right??

monument

Under your idea if you live in a city you would be charged more as the land fill site would be located outside the city.

“i live on the main bus/dart routes, i've my choice of hospital, school, shops, telephone exchange is about 2km away. Basically i've every facility i would need or expect it ireland, and i don't see why i should be paying for someone else.”

So the people who live near the Luas should be charged in full for its cost? And you should be charged more because you live near hospitals etc..?

Boston

Originally posted by Sangre
Wtf??

So what you're saying is you paid for those facilities by yourself? With no one elses money? I doubt you even pay tax and if you did it would be from a minimul part time job.

Point i was making about he bus and dart lines was that in my area they don't make a loss, always operate a full capacity (most of the time) whereas in other areas they run at a loss but are socially desirable, therefore these services should be cut for more profitable routes and the cost of running the route past my door should fall. People in swords will jsut have to walk into town.

monument why should i pay for anything i don't use, why can't i hord all my money, in fact if i don't intend on using public transport, can i have a tax rebate. I don't even entend on goign on the dole, (wouldn't get it anyway) and i've VHI so why do i pay PRSI for those poor people.

BrianD3

last time i looked there where different rates based on distance.

:rolleyes: Last time I looked, postage rates were the same for all parts of Ireland. Are you telling me that it costs more to post a letter to someone who lives in the middle of nowhere than it does to post the same letter to someone living in the middle of Dublin? Get your facts straight.

As for the waste thing, in one breath you say theres no figures for collection cost, and in the next its so tiny it doesn't matter, what one is it?

I said "I imagine" I gave my opinion based on my knowledge of land prices which I would regard as being a more significant cost than the cost of transport. I didn't say there were no figures for collection cost, I said *I* don't have any figures to hand. Understand?

I see this getting confusing, so lets change it a little, if i deliver i should pay less then someone who gets it collected, in fact i should have the choice of what to do with my waste as i never signed a contract with dublin city council to collect it, so i don't know why they threaten to sue me.

You want the choice to do what you want with your waste? Hey, why don't you just burn it in your back garden or throw it in a hole in the ground somewhere. Real clever :rolleyes:

As for delivering your waste to landfill that would be unworkable. Everyone else would have the same idea. Instead of a few bin trucks arriving at the landfill, you'd have hundreds of private cars arriving. Imagine the chaos that would cause. Plus it would be worse for the environment - far more efficient to transport 5 tonnes of rubbish using one bin truck than the same quantity using 20+ private cars.

BrianD3

Boston

who mentioned ireland matey as far as postage, no i, read post befre you contradict.

whats the difference between me burning it and it being burnt afew km away? except the cost to me.

as for going to the landfill, used to happen all the time mate, how people forget the past. Back in the days when dublin city council begged people to allow them to collect their waste instead of dublin it. besides i wouldn't go to the landfill i'd go to the depo or another waste contractor, as i said i know a few

monument

Originally posted by Boston
monument why should i pay for anything i don't use, why can't i hord all my money, in fact if i don't intend on using public transport, can i have a tax rebate. I don't even entend on goign on the dole, (wouldn't get it anyway) and i've VHI so why do i pay PRSI for those poor people.

Because what you’re talking about is pure capitalism, which is even bad for capitalism.

Originally posted by Boston
in fact if i don't intend on using public transport, can i have a tax rebate

Under your tax ideology – If you use a car, you should be charged more for polluting and taking up more space on the roads.

Originally posted by Boston
I don't even entend on goign on the dole

Many of the people who go on the dole don’t even “entend” or even intend doing so.

Originally posted by Boston
and i've VHI so why do i pay PRSI for those poor people.

Lets not, and while were at it f*** all the poor people around the world.



I’m now convinced you’re just been a muppet wasting other peoples time.

Boston

No i'm not a muppet and no i'm not wasting time, i'm making a point, that irish society has very much changed to the above. If people nowadays think a neighbour is getting one over them they will go all out to stop them. Reminded of a street near me where they voted in disc parking so people wouldn't be parking for free outside their door, forgot to take into account they to would now have to pay for parking outside their own door. Basically they screwed themselves and you can be damned sure there where plenty without cars who voted for it.

People say that they aprove of bin charges, let the polluter pay they say forgetting they too pollute probably just as much as their nighbour. so i take it to the next level, let the sick pay for the hospital service, like the intelligent pay for the education system, let the bus users pay for the bus.

Btw i wouldn't get the dole as its means tested.

PhilipMarlowe

Boston, please quit being so narcissistic… the whole world doesn’t revolve around you.
Fair enough if you want to throw out an opinion for debate and comments but at least try and keep it somewhat realistic and/or plausible.

Hurray for your logic btw, let the poor pay for the dole…. [insert a Merc rolleyes here]

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
People say that they aprove of bin charges, let the polluter pay they say forgetting they too pollute probably just as much as their nighbour. so i take it to the next level

Of course you do. You live in an area where you say everything is local, everything is profitable, and you are (presumably) in reasonably good health.

What I asked was if there were costs which would disadvantage you, would you be so happy to accept them under the same logic?

Lets not forget that neither you, nor I, have any inkling what our futures bring. Do you want to cut a few pennies off your monthly bill on the hope that you never have to move, never end up in a situation where you end up getting screwed into penury for services that you currently get for next-to-nothing simply because your situation changes?

If your dump shuts down, will you say "OK, I'm now living at the extreme end of someone else's collection point, I'll pay 1000% more than I was last month", or will you be up in arms decrying the unfairness of it all.

At the end of the day, Biffa, your argument is virtually identical to "I'm rich, why do I have to pay to help these poor scum". The answer to you is the same as it is to them : will you take the same attitude if and when you end up in the opposite position? Will you say "I'm poor, but why should those lucky rich guys help me, I'm not worth it".

Hell, while we're at it, lets let the third world starve. I'm sure you don't want to be paying for them either. Could save a few more pennies of the old paycheck each month that way too.

jc

monument

To put it simply what you’re saying is f*** the poor.

(In addition, if you like it or not, “the polluter” is not the householder it’s who creates the rubbish in the first place.)

Originally posted by Boston

Btw i wouldn't get the dole as its means tested.

Victor might be able to clarify this for you, but as far as I'm aware, roughly 13 weeks part time work, maybe just 2 days a week, should qualify you for non means tested dole

Your points regarding poor people wouldn't exactly endear you to those who form the back bone of the Bin Charge protest either:eek: and it certainly loosens the ground under your argument at the centre of this thread for equality .

mm

seamus

Reminded of a street near me where they voted in disc parking so people wouldn't be parking for free outside their door, forgot to take into account they to would now have to pay for parking outside their own door. Basically they screwed themselves and you can be damned sure there where plenty without cars who voted for it.

Utter speculation Boston. I live in an estate, and even there, we experience what a pain in the arse it is when some selfish git decides he's going to to park his fourth car in front of your driveway, instead of his own, making the job of getting in and out of your own driveway an obstacle course.
Most of the residents of the street you mention were probably more than happy to pay a minimal fee each year (residents get cheap parking permits) to ensure that they always had a spot on their street, and that any inconsiderate pricks would have their cars towed after 2 hours.

Point i was making about he bus and dart lines was that in my area they don't make a loss, always operate a full capacity (most of the time) whereas in other areas they run at a loss but are socially desirable, therefore these services should be cut for more profitable routes and the cost of running the route past my door should fall. People in swords will jsut have to walk into town.

Blatant troll :rolleyes:
Why don't we just leave the African countries alone? After all, it's not in our financial interests to keep pouring money into an area that doesn't seem to be getting any better :rolleyes:

In this country, we have always aspired to be slightly socialist. That is, that all people should have access to some basic services. Mainly clean water, transport, and electricity (probably some more, but my brain isn't working tonight). Provision of these services to all people (or 99% of the people), even at a loss, improves our freedoms. If the ESB refused to run cables up the hill to a farmer, or Bus Eireann refused to make the run to Wesport every day, pretty soon, all that would be left would be major city centres, and within those city centres, huge slums with little or no services, and ridiculously inflated house prices in 'profitable' areas.
That may be fine for you in your happy, wealthy, arrogant position, but the rest of us have no problem paying money to allow people their (reasonable) freedom, since one day we may request the same freedoms ourselves.

So if you don't like your tax money being used so Una O'Malley from Carrick-on-Shannon can get to the shop from her lifelong home on the loss-making bus, there are two things you can do;
1. Try get elected and change it.
2. Leave.

Incidentally, if you live right beside the dump, I would be of the opinion that you aren't entitled to a bin collection, since you're well able to haul your own rubbish over there yourself. Collecting your bins is a waste of our resources.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Boston
well if they take a stupid route thats their bussiness, i'm working of a radius here, its the fairest way. I dear say the majority of the cost would be the collecting,

OK, so if they collect your waste first, that means that they have to carry the weight of your rubbish for the longest time, so you should actually be paying higher fees to pay for all that diesel to carry your waste all round their route and back to the depot.

Originally posted by Boston
Point is though that i shouldn't be subsidising anybodies wastefull habites and i demand this system is introduce, also that people in rural areas pay several times what people pay in urban areas, something to the order of ten

Congratulations - you win the 'dumbest waste charges suggestion of the decade' award.

sceptre

Originally posted by Boston
Reminded of a street near me where they voted in disc parking so people wouldn't be parking for free outside their door, forgot to take into account they to would now have to pay for parking outside their own door. Basically they screwed themselves and you can be damned sure there where plenty without cars who voted for it.

They're entitled to a residential parking disc, probably for next to nothing. My city centre parking in Limerick costs me 6 (six!) euros a year.

Boston

seamus: you don't own the spot out side your house, someone can still park there, just they pay for the pleasure. The cost is comthing of the order of 20 euro a year which goes up to over a hundread for the second car in the household, and standard rates for any visitors. I found it funny when half the cars in the street where clamped up saturday morning.



If by troll you mean i was trying to provoke a response, then yep. ITs clear that all these suggestions of mine and hyperbole, and to the extreme, no person of should mind believes in this level of cpaitalism, the point was though that we are approaching this level rapidly. No longer is there a sense of community, with the constant moving of people in ireland today nobody feels connected anymore to there area. Reminded of a situation at in finglas i was told about, where half the residents want to prevent children playing on the green due to fears of foot balls breakign windows, these residents forget that their own kids when they where younger played on that green. No longer is it whats best for the community, buts its whats best for me. Another example local to me was when there was a burst water main, the corpo came out on a sunday to fix it, and where basically told by a small number of residents on that street not to dear start digging the road of a sunday, the day of rest. Result monday morning after the tanks ran dry nobody in thousands of houses in the area had water. This is the point of the threa,d were becoming a nation of whats in it for me.

To the point bonkey about the bin protestors and how they relate to me, i know some of them, support them fully. I come from an area that would be disadvanaged in terms of infrastucture and employment. What prompted this thread was another thread where i read that a protestor was nearly killed by a council truck driver, for standing up for what he believed in, the response to which was along the lines "wish he had died, for blocking my bin collection" i mean ffs these people are at least standing up for something, maybe you don't support it but at least have respect for someone who is willing to make a stand.

Paddyo

Boston

Aren't you very lucky that we, tax payers, provided you with all of the amenities that you need around your local area.

Based on your logic, the rest of us, who dont live in your area, are due a refund from you.

Maybe your right - lets go back in time to when there was no sense of community - maybe the stone age.

Or maybe you should go live alone on an island. That way you wont be subsidising anyone else.

Paddyo

Paddyo

oops!!

Just saw your last reply

Paddyo

Boston

A you presume you pay more then i do. And as i said the amenities in my area make a profit, therefore in the new world order logic, those services would still be supplied.

Just arguing Devils Advocate here, no need for you people to be getting so abusive btw.

seamus

Originally posted by Boston
If by troll you mean i was trying to provoke a response, then yep. ITs clear that all these suggestions of mine and hyperbole, and to the extreme, no person of should mind believes in this level of cpaitalism, the point was though that we are approaching this level rapidly. No longer is there a sense of community, with the constant moving of people in ireland today nobody feels connected anymore to there area.
........
No longer is it whats best for the community, buts its whats best for me.

Couldn't agree more. More money has always bred more greed and the Irish people, with our new wealth are no exception. I'm confused as to why you make your point, complaining about narcissism, by wholeheartedly recommending a narcissistic solution.

i mean ffs these people are at least standing up for something, maybe you don't support it but at least have respect for someone who is willing to make a stand.

Any monkey can stand up for what he believes in. I for one question many of their motives. It's back with the whole "Doing it for themselves" theme again. I don't believe for one second that most protestors are complaining about any kind of double taxation or governmental screwing. Most are just looking after their own pockets imo. Any time you introduce charges, there are going to be a hardcore of people who have a million reasons why they shouldn't have to pay these charges, when in the end, all they're trying to do is avoid paying. They have no higher motives than looking after their own pennies.

My 2c.

monument

Originally posted by Boston
A you presume you pay more then i do. And as i said the amenities in my area make a profit, therefore in the new world order logic, those services would still be supplied.

Just arguing Devils Advocate here, no need for you people to be getting so abusive btw.

What happens if ever one lived in your area, (we'd be so lucky) and some people in this area were too poor to pay for the profit making services?

Again, what you’re saying is fuck the poor?

Boston

Originally posted by seamus
Couldn't agree more. More money has always bred more greed and the Irish people, with our new wealth are no exception. I'm confused as to why you make your point, complaining about narcissism, by wholeheartedly recommending a narcissistic solution.


Any monkey can stand up for what he believes in. I for one question many of their motives. It's back with the whole "Doing it for themselves" theme again. I don't believe for one second that most protestors are complaining about any kind of double taxation or governmental screwing. Most are just looking after their own pockets imo. Any time you introduce charges, there are going to be a hardcore of people who have a million reasons why they shouldn't have to pay these charges, when in the end, all they're trying to do is avoid paying. They have no higher motives than looking after their own pennies.

My 2c.

Hmm i'd go as far to say that most people protesting against bin charges are exempt from bin charges anyway, afaik if you have a medical your exempt from these things, for my local authority anyway. This is a far more complex issue then you give it credit for, i'm reminded of when my area rejected the threaty of nice, everyone was making wild guesses as to why it happened, when the truth was it was just people pissed off with th goverment, no body i know has a problem with reclying, no body i know how a problem with paying for a better waste system, problem arises in when where asked to blindly believe this is the best way to achieve it, i mean i read in another thread here some pretty compellign arguemnt that all the waste (or the majority) is still being landfilled, even the stuff thats ment to be reclyed. People refuse to pay these charges without accountability, because where does it end. Fine example is paying a hundread euro a year to the goverment to park your car outside your door, what exactly is this charge for? is your car any less likely to be robbed? do you now get priority over that space, i think not.

As to why i'm makign the arguement in the way i am, well i thought it might provoke abite of debate by taking the opposing side, instead of the usually trench warefare type mud slinging that passes as decorum around here,