Bin Tax / The Late Late

dathi1

Did you ever see such a piece of TV crap?! Cullen was up there regurgitating the values of "recycling" whilst RTE cronies form independent newspapers The "peoples" Herald newspaper Howick and Co expressed.... although he agreed with the bin tax (sick) he would trust that the minister would look into the 20% per quater rise in bin tax charges in his area in Bray....Jezzus :rolleyes:
Not surprised to see the TV tax paid Pat Kenny slanting towards the user fee syndrome.

I agree with the idea of user fees...but not at the behest of unelected county managers and definitely not Dublin Corporation / Council quango set ups. Its like Aer rianta controlling landing charges...hold on they do don't they?

jesus_thats_gre

Pat Kenny kept missing the meaning of the audiences points, very funny on occassion.

sceptre

Originally posted by dathi1
he would trust that the minister would look into the 20% per quater rise in bin tax charges in his area in Bray....Jezzus

I didn't see the show* (I was checking out the Dunphy show for the first time) but if you've described that accurately you've illustrated one of the major problems with Irish politics.

There really should have been panel representation from the anti-tax protestors (I gather they officially got five audience tickets). People from both sides of the argument should have the cop-on to recognise that.


*actually I lie. I saw the Rachel Stevens bit. Nyom

eoin@host.ie

Originally posted by dathi1
although he agreed with the bin tax

It should be renamed the Council Tax, it is clear from the speed it is rising at (40/50% each year) that it is nothing to do with the polluter pays principle and everything to do with plugging the gap in local authorities finances left by cutbacks in the funds distributed to local authorities from central government.

Eoin

Qadhafi

I have to back the minister on this one. I live in the country, pay bin charges and dont complain. We have to clean up this country, the only problem I have is that it isnt pay per weight at the moment.

I laughed at those whingers on the show last night. Every other country in the EU is paying for the service!

Get on with the program and introduce pay per weight and introduce brown bins like in Galway and blue (paper) bins;)

Sparks

<points to the long-ongoing bin tax thread and mumbles something about merging...>

parasite

i missed rachel stevens !
sigh

Cork

I don;t see any future in bury resources like glass and cardboard. This countrys reliance on reliance on landfill is insane. Landfill should really be phased out. Throwing trash into a bin for landfill is environmental stupidity.

Martin Cullen had a clear message that of environmental awareness. The Anti Bin people were all over the place going on about facists and the like.

A pretty easy win - by Mr. Cullen.

Villain

He may have won the talking battle on the Late Late, but he has a long hard battle to go over this issue still.

dathi1

A pretty easy win - by Mr. Cullen.

Yes a great man...always tells the truth. Like 90% payment ...like Pensioners, Unemployed, "Asylum Seekers" probably make up 30% of that number.
and he rightly or wrongly called one non payer a sponger!!?? This from a Party who wants to spend millions on a Gov Jet to look good and comfy for the Euro brigade next year. When it comes to a sponging non paying resident he has a long way to catch up with this shower of euro licking, non descript windbags.
Did ye see the bit where one guy held up press cuttings of Finna Fail promises on no user fees...The "easy wining" Cullen got hot and flustered and with nothing to counter attack in his portfolio of lies... he went to the bowels of his colon and called him a Socialist party member!! to which the guy replied...I'm not in any socialist party.

I laughed at those whingers on the show last night. Every other country in the EU is paying for the service!

This is the type of crap that will be thrown at us when they get their way on rates and tax harmonisation.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I don;t see any future in bury resources like glass and cardboard. This countrys reliance on reliance on landfill is insane. Landfill should really be phased out. Throwing trash into a bin for landfill is environmental stupidity.

*sigh*
Cork, you can't get away with that in the humanities thread, why do you think you could here?

Martin Cullen had a clear message that of environmental awareness. The Anti Bin people were all over the place going on about facists and the like.
A pretty easy win - by Mr. Cullen.

Big round hairy ones Cork. Just because you've not been taken to pieces on every soundbite in this forum's bin tax thread doesn't mean that those soundbites are any more valid here.
And Cullen was a disgrace to the nation on the Late Late Show, as I said in the other thread.

Cork

Originally posted by Qadhafi


I laughed at those whingers on the show last night. Every other country in the EU is paying for the service!

Get on with the program and introduce pay per weight and introduce brown bins like in Galway and blue (paper) bins;)

Payment by wieght is already in West Cork. From January 1st next - it will be in North Cork. This will encourage more recycling and it is in accordance with the "Polluters Pays Principle".

The Late Late show debate was good. I think - It gave opportunity to both sides to explain their case.

Sparks

Bonkey, can you merge this thread with the other one please? It's hard enough showing cork where he's incorrect when I only have to follow one thread...

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Qadhafi
I have to back the minister on this one. I live in the country, pay bin charges and dont complain. We have to clean up this country, the only problem I have is that it isnt pay per weight at the moment.

I laughed at those whingers on the show last night. Every other country in the EU is paying for the service!

Get on with the program and introduce pay per weight and introduce brown bins like in Galway and blue (paper) bins;)

All this has to do with GATS which is an agreement which enforces the privatisation of services throughout the world and sets them up so that the clock can never turn back if the people decided they wanted to. The proposed EU constitution paves the way for the privatisation of health, education and culture - 100% privatisation. Privatisation which cannot be reversed.

Why should we pay for a private service to remove our waste when its only interest would be for us to create more garbage so we can employ them? Garbage is a public problem and to privatise this problem would scupper moves towards proper recycling because the bin companies would kick up stink. Perhaps even literally.

It's just one local example of a worldwide policy that is causing suffering and death in other areas of the world we don't go to.

Cork

Originally posted by DadaKopf
All this has to do with GATS which is an agreement which enforces the privatisation of services throughout the world and sets them up so that the clock can never turn back if the people decided they wanted to. The proposed EU constitution paves the way for the privatisation of health, education and culture - 100% privatisation.

We will have a chance to vote on this constitution. We'll let the Irish people decide on that one.

Why should we pay for a private service to remove our waste when its only interest would be for us to create more garbage so we can employ them? Garbage is a public problem and to privatise this problem would scupper moves towards proper recycling

Some people are opposed paying either to a private or public sector operator. Over 50% of this countrys refuse is collected by private operators.

They are doing a great service.

dathi1

Some people are opposed paying either to a private or public sector operator. Over 50% of this countrys refuse is collected by private operators.

With its rebellious historical background there was a time when to be from west Cork meant something....not any more.

We will have a chance to vote on this constitution. We'll let the Irish people decide on that one.

Just like the last farce on Nice like dumb sheep going to slaughter...wev still a lot of education to do.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
wev still a lot of education to do.

But its alright...after these reforms get voted in by the sheep, you can pay private companies to educate you proper-like

jc

DadaKopf

I guess when the Constitution doesn't get voted in the first time, the government won't listen again and make us vote it in the second time.

The EU Constitution is 100% privatisation by stealth. It will kill off democracy for Europe and our governments and the possibility of getting it back if we want.

Do we really think it's responsible to relinquish public control of public services?

The division in the EU right now is over the focus of policy: should we be interested in who gets the services or who provides the services?

The Bin Tax protests is the beginning of a shift in opinion in Ireland towards the second question - it's important that we debate this question. Of course, the government won't.

bonkey

Excellent point Dada, but I would suggest that such a "broad" discussion would be the work of a seperate thread?


jc

Cork

Originally posted by dathi1
With its rebellious historical background there was a time when to be from west Cork meant something....not any more.

Why, According to reports on the radio this morning - waste has increased 10 fold in the last 10 years. We no longer pay local taxes & the income tax rates have been slashed.

The People in West Cork have recognised that there is a waste problem & found a solution that awards those who recycle more and who reduce their refuse going to landfill.

People can still apply for waivers. Infact that the system that is in existance in West Cork is being extended to North Cork and it will eventually be extended nationwide.

People who recycle more will have to put out bins less. I think that the people of West Cork deserve much credit.

I was down there a few weeks ago. The villages and towns down there are immaculate. These people are very proud of their areas & seem satisfied with the payment by wieght system.

There is a Dublin Vs the rest of the country devide on this issue. People outside Dublin have been paying for waste charges for years and in general are happy to do so.

Dublin as a country has not even sufficent landfilll space to deal with its garbage with much waste being transported into a landfill in a neighbouring country.

Alarm Bells should be ringing up there - to reduce, re-use and recycle and tot to rely on landfill.

Cork

Originally posted by DadaKopf

The EU Constitution is 100% privatisation by stealth. It will kill off democracy for Europe and our governments and the possibility of getting it back if we want.

The EU constitution is at draft stage. The final document is not yet available.

dathi1

Alarm Bells should be ringing up there - to reduce, re-use and recycle and tot to rely on landfill.

and who do we rely on to keep the waste management costs to a minimum? Dublin City Council? An unelected county manager?
Its sh.it before it even starts. Na...Just like the TV tax increase farce..it looks like another uncontrolled service tax and like the rest of the public service, imposed to keep quango heads in soft jobs and keep raising the price to breaking point no matter how hard on residents because its totally unaccountable.
speaking of public service no wonder SIPTU + Co leadership are quiet on the issue.

People can still apply for waivers.

Isnt that just great...you can get tax relief on your new uncontroled and unacountable tax service charge if you're on low wage etc... Thank you big brother.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by bonkey
Excellent point Dada, but I would suggest that such a "broad" discussion would be the work of a seperate thread?

Not really. I wasn't trying to make this threat a GATS thread. It's just important to link the Bin Tax issue to the privatisation debate and to link that to the mechanisms that are making this happen, affecting our choices yada, yada, yada.

That's all .

Cork

Originally posted by dathi1
and who do we rely on to keep the waste management costs to a minimum?

It is everybodys responsibility. The amount of rubbish you put in your bin - depends on you. It depends on whether you use recycling centres and the products you buy.

It's just important to link the Bin Tax issue to the privatisation debate

It would be better - if we linked it to an environmental debate and how there is not sufficent landfiils in Dublin to accomadate it's waste.

Over 50% of this countrys waste is collected by private operators. Private Operators have been collecting rubbish for years.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
We will have a chance to vote on this constitution. We'll let the Irish people decide on that one.

Actually that vote won't matter. We signed up to GATS for just under 160 services in the Nice Treaty.

Some people are opposed paying either to a private or public sector operator.

Nope.

Over 50% of this countrys refuse is collected by private operators.

And dumped in landfills.

They are doing a great service.

Actually, they're not. Not at the price they're charging.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Why, According to reports on the radio this morning - waste has increased 10 fold in the last 10 years.

Did those reports point out that Fianna Fail has put in place a de facto fine for anyone that tries to recycle waste?

We no longer pay local taxes & the income tax rates have been slashed.

And the total tax revenue has grown enormously.
There's been more than enough money to do this.

The People in West Cork have recognised that there is a waste problem & found a solution that awards those who recycle more and who reduce their refuse going to landfill.

How, when from 70 to 96% of waste brought to bring centres has been dumped straight to landfill?

<edited by bonkey to fix /quotes>

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
Did those reports point out that Fianna Fail has put in place a de facto fine for anyone that tries to recycle waste?

How so? (Not being smart...this is one I haven't heard before)

And the total tax revenue has grown enormously.
There's been more than enough money to do this.

Yes, the total tax revenue has grown enormously, and we're spending all of it and are still in need for more. Now, while I'm the first person to agree with you that improvements in efficiency of the use of this money across the board are needed, surely its time that the solution to every government problem stops being touted as "you just need to allocate it more money, and look, we have more to spend".

Sure, you can mention the government jet again if you like, but so far, thats been allocated to pay for improved roads, healtcare, bin charges, education, and god knows what else in the conversations I've had and heard recently.

As a matter of interest, would you accept a reduction in the contributions to the pension fund if teh government were to spend it on collecting your refuse instead? Or perhaps to education? Or to the health-care system that you are so vociferously calling for more improvement (and rapidly) for , which will also require more money as well as better usage of the monies they have?

And seeing as you've obviously checked into tax-revenues increases to make the statement, have you also checked into total government expenditure in the various areas, and figured out where the extra money should not have gone were it to be given to some local authorities to clean up some people's rubbish? Indeed, I'm sure you've actually checked the cost of our disposal functions, and how they've changed over time, in order to be able to say that the tax-revenue increases can pay for it.

Any links to any of these figures perchance? Or even some details about them? Because otherwise the "just pay it from the tax revenue" seems as well-thought-out a solution as the "build more roads" one is for congestion.

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
how so? (Not being smart...this is one I haven't heard before)

It came up in the Humanities Bin Tax thread:

Same source as before, the National Waste Report from the Environmental Protection Agency. Note that the percentage of material that went to landfill from recycling points varys according to the class of material - 92.6% for paper, 70.9% for glass, 99.4% for plastic and 95.3% for organic waste.

In other words, you spend time seperating your waste, then you spend time bringing it to recycling pickup points. Say a total of four hours a week spread over that week? 115000 households (approximately) in the Fingal area - that's 460,000 man-hours a week, and about 2,300,000 man-hours a year. And that time is all wasted, because that waste then all goes into the same hole in the ground as there isn't a waste recycling infrastructure there. Now that 2.3 million man-hours per annum is just leisure time we've wasted (obviously it could be time we got paid for too, but let's be generous). Thing is, businesses that recycle see the same percentages going to landfill - and they pay for their manhours. So it's a defacto fine for recycling, because you're expending money for no end effect.

Any links to any of these figures perchance? Or even some details about them? Because otherwise the "just pay it from the tax revenue" seems as well-thought-out a solution as the "build more roads" one is for congestion.

Not really - since it was said in response to the equally daft statement that taxes have fallen since the 80's, implying that that's a good reason to raise them. Direct Tax rates have certainly fallen, but total tax take is up.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

Direct Tax rates have certainly fallen, but total tax take is up.

Prior to 1977 - Everybody had no pay rates and very high tax rates.

Now in 2003 - We in 2003. Income tax rates have been slashed and we have no local taxes.

& we have a debate on waste charges?

It is up to each individual to recycle where possible.

Local Authorities have built many recycling facilities around Cork. People are using them because it cuts down on the amount of waste ending up in landfill. People are charged less for their rubbish.

Charging makes total sense from an environmental point of view.

Dublin has not even sufficent landfills for their trash.

Recycling will not get really going in Dublin untill people have to pay for the waste they produce as in the case with areas outside Dublin.

The question Originally asked by Bonkey was:
Yes, the total tax revenue has grown enormously, and we're spending all of it and are still in need for more. Now, while I'm the first person to agree with you that improvements in efficiency of the use of this money across the board are needed, surely its time that the solution to every government problem stops being touted as "you just need to allocate it more money, and look, we have more to spend".

Sure, you can mention the government jet again if you like, but so far, thats been allocated to pay for improved roads, healtcare, bin charges, education, and god knows what else in the conversations I've had and heard recently.

As a matter of interest, would you accept a reduction in the contributions to the pension fund if teh government were to spend it on collecting your refuse instead? Or perhaps to education? Or to the health-care system that you are so vociferously calling for more improvement (and rapidly) for , which will also require more money as well as better usage of the monies they have?

Sparks Replied:

Originally posted by Sparks


Not really - since it was said in response to the equally daft statement that taxes have fallen since the 80's, implying that that's a good reason to raise them. Direct Tax rates have certainly fallen, but total tax take is up.

I am actually interested in seeing you address Bonkeys points above, as your reply didn't answer them at all.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
In other words, you spend time seperating your waste, then you spend time bringing it to recycling pickup points. Say a total of four hours a week spread over that week?

You've got to be kidding me. 4 *hours* a week???

I don't spend 4 minutes a week on seperation - I simply choose where to put the stuff first time round. It takes me the same amount of time to put my empty bottle beside my empty bottles as it would to put it in the "regular" bin. In fact, I don't know anyone who has to "seperate" their rubbish. And I don't know what constitutes seperation in Ireland, but over here I have :

paper, PET, glass, tin, electrics, batteries, used oil, and greens.

So that leaves me about 3 hours 56 minutes on your scale to take stuff to the recycling points every week!!! Of the stuff above, I need a total of two collection points, and stuff like paper, batteries, used oil, and electrics I wouldn't need to dump more than a couple of times a year.

How did anyone come up with those figures? I mean - seriously - are they putting the collection points in the most hard-to-get-to-places imaginable? Are they ensuring that no two item-types have the same collection points?

that's 460,000 man-hours a week, and about 2,300,000 man-hours a year.

Your math are off. Thats for 5 weeks, not 50.

And that time is all wasted, because that waste then all goes into the same hole in the ground as there isn't a waste recycling infrastructure there.

Well work out which is more expensive to the taxpayer : paying to put a system in place before people are ready to use it, or paying to put a system in place once all the ancillary problems (like getting people ready to use it) are solved.

How outraged would you be if the govt. spent X million on a recycling system which they didn't have the infrastructure to use? You'd be livid and you know it. Or if they did a gradual rollout, people would be bitching about "whats teh point in only seperating out X, why couldn't they have done Y and Z as well".

Its called a transition period.

So it's a defacto fine for recycling, because you're expending money for no end effect.

Well, actually, if you're arguing that the stuff isn't being recycled, then its a bit misleading to claim that its a tax on what is not happening.

Not really - since it was said in response to the equally daft statement that taxes have fallen since the 80's,

Cork's point was that disposal costs have risen ten fold in ten years. Regardless of how daft the decrease in taxation rates may be, can you seriously expect anyone to believe that "There's been more than enough money to do this" purely on the grounds that tax income has increased???

And, as I pointed out, there are no shortage of other places where the money is already being spent, and many - including yourself - are screaming out that more should be put into X, Y, and Z, and that there's plenty to go round.

There isn't. If our government was 100% efficient in how it spent its money, it would still take years - perhaps decades - to get everything up and running, and during that interim you would still be able to look at the transitions and complain bitterly about how stupid it was to have A without B, and how there was plenty of money to pay for it all.

This is what I'm driving at. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that if all you're doing is presenting the same tired argument without showing that the money is there, and you haven't used it in a different argument to fund somethign else, then you're not going to convince anyone.

I might as well say that the governmetn can afford to make everything free, because there's been such an increase in taxes that "the moneys there to pay for it".

It isn't and we both know it.

jc

AngelofFire

refuse disposal is an essential public service in the 1980s when the country was in recession we never had to pay bin taxes. why should we start paying for it during a time of considerable prosperity. Our income tax pays for it already. if you ask me the governemnt is just slowly trying to sell off the entire refuse service to a private corporation. Our taxes pay for the service already why should we have to pay an extra charge? our money is only going into the backpockets of the fatcats.

Originally posted by AngelofFire
Our taxes pay for the service already why should we have to pay an extra charge? our money is only going into the backpockets of the fatcats.

Lovely rant there, but incorrect .
I'm curious, since you are entering a discussion here, have you read the other points raised which are totally at odds with your soundbites.

mm

ReefBreak

First off, the Anti-Bin Tax people got absolutely hammered on the Late Late the other night. The fact that the audience applauded whenever they were shown up for being the Ideology-Before-People Marxists that they are was very informing. It shows that the vast majority of people have no time for them.

(Wo)Man of the Match award goes to the elderly lady that spoke at the very end - she very eloquently destroyed the Anti-Bin Charge people in the audience. The Anti-Bin Charge people did get plenty of time to promote their cause - I would say about 33% of time when to Brid Coppinger and her ilk, 33% of time to Martin Cullen and 33% of time to various opinions in the audience.

Claire Daly and her husband were also completely destroyed on the Marian Finucane show this morning (no, I do have a life - I listened to it on the way to work in my car). They were going round in so many circles, it was hilarious.

Anyway, like Cork and Bonkey have said, tax rates now are far less than they were in the 80s. And I would rather pay lower taxes and also pay bin charges, because it means it forces me to recycle and well, all the other reasons that Cork and Bonkey have stated.

[Waaaay of topic] I think Pat Kenny did a good job. The Plank is definitely very bad at "light" entertainment, but he's very at home with political debate such as the above. And I quite like his radio show too, when I'm not working. But that's for the TV forum.

dathi1

Anyway, like Cork and Bonkey have said, tax rates now are far less than they were in the 80s. And I would rather pay lower taxes and also pay bin charges

And as I pointed out at the start of this thread I agree with the idea of user fees...but what amazes me here is everybody seems to be ranting on about low taxes and recycling and not debating the real issue of who is responsible and accountable for giving residents the best deal! ? What's the point of introducing a new council tax when its just going to sky rocket like the TV tax and Parking Tax in town?
This new Council tax should be scrapped now and when its made accountable to residents it then should be implemented by elected councillors on behalf of those residents.

and reef....come on lets face it....Pat Kenny isn't worth $140 a year.

Originally posted by dathi1
What's the point of introducing a new council tax when its just going to sky rocket like the TV tax and Parking Tax in town?
This new Council tax should be scrapped now and when its made accountable to residents it then should be implemented by elected councillors on behalf of those residents.

What do you mean made accountable to Residents?
The residents are voting with their pockets and paying up.
It's only a minority who are refusing to pay.
The service cannot be funded by manna from heaven, it's paid for by the user which is fair.
And as regards the TV license, would you like to see an end to public service broadcasting in Ireland? and consequently a Sky one schedule on RTE one?? No thank you!

Your parking comment is way off the wall too in my honest opinion, what do you want , free parking and clogged up streets??

Two off topic and unrelated issues there, which you've thrown in to deflect from the issue at hand ie how one should pay for waste disposal.

mm

dathi1

The residents are voting with their pockets and paying up.

Either you are Cullen himself or you haven't visited areas like Ballyfermot or Finglas. The lie of 80% payment is sounding a bit tired now.

And as regards the TV license, would you like to see an end to public service broadcasting in Ireland?

TG4 does a good job and only costs 16million...that will do nicely.

Your parking comment is way off the wall too in my honest opinion, what do you want , free parking and clogged up streets??

If I had a metro system like they have in Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok or Singapore I'd fine people for entering the city centre in a car.....but its not like that is it.
again nobody in the public sector is accountable so why should we accept their dictats on this new tax.

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
The residents are voting with their pockets and paying up.
It's only a minority who are refusing to pay.

Actually, the latest figures from the council that were obtained through a freedom of information request showed that Fingal and Dun Laoighaire council areas were seeing approximately 20% of people paying the bill.

The service cannot be funded by manna from heaven, it's paid for by the user which is fair.

If the Polluter Pays, why are so many people being penalised with enormous bills when they only produce 15% of the landfill waste per annum - and of that 15%, a fair proportion is waste that was brought to recycling points to be recycled and was then just dumped to landfill sites.

I will leave your off topic remarks on the TV license alone except to say I totally disagree,start a thread in ICDG and I'll argue that one out with you there.

again nobody in the public sector is accountable so why should we accept their dictats on this new tax.

Because we live in a Democracy in which we elect representatives that control these issues and govern on our behalf.

The lie of 80% payment is sounding a bit tired now.

Could I have a source for that being a lie please

mm

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
Could I have a source for that being a lie please

As was pointed out in the Humanities Bin Tax thread, FOI requests from the councils involved revealed that payment figures were actually running around 20% or so. The council was adding in waivers and partial payments (of any and all levels) to come up with the 80% figures.

http://www.stopthebintax.com/payment_calc.htm

ReefBreak

Oh god, stop, stop, you're cracking me up here. Everyone should read that link - just to see the type of people running the bin-charge campaign. The "Stop The Bin Tax" campaign have decided that waivers and partial-payments are the same as non-payment, and so have come up with 80% non-payment. Although interestingly, no figures are included on the page.

For a truer figure, you need the following calculation:

Total that have paid-up fully + (Total that have partially paid x Average Percentage of Payment)
...divided by...
Total that have paid-up fully or partially + Total people that have yet to pay, but do not qualify for a waiver.

For the partially paid people, you could take each individual payment and multiply it by the Payment Percentage, but obviously that would take too long.

Or for an easier calculation simply:
Total that have paid-up fully
...divided by...
Total that have paid-up fully + Total people that have yet to pay, but do not qualify for a waiver.

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Oh god, stop, stop, you're cracking me up here. Everyone should read that link - just to see the type of people running the bin-charge campaign.

You know, that would be a cutting, decisively winning comment, totally undermining your "opponent's" credibility, were it not for two small things:
1) Your "side" is Fianna Fail.
2) This isn't actually a sports competition and what affects the people you're deriding is coming for you next.

The "Stop The Bin Tax" campaign have decided that waivers and partial-payments are the same as non-payment, and so have come up with 80% non-payment. Although interestingly, no figures are included on the page.

The figures are on the rest of the site - that page is supposed to show how the figures are calculated. Maybe had you actually read it instead of looking to score points, you're have noticed that.

Total people that have yet to pay, but do not qualify for a waiver.

And why would you include those that do not qualify for a waiver only? After all, the "other side" are the ones that decide who qualifies for a waiver, so that would seem to be a tactic that's designed to let Fianna Fail decide who the "victors" are...

ReefBreak

It's pretty simple. There are 10 people in a room - 5 people have fully paid, 5 people have a waiver and have not paid. By the Anti-Bin tax calculations, that's a 50% payment figure, when in reality it's a 100% payment figure.

Also, I applaude FF/PD for this campaign. It's time we had a modern waste system in Dublin.

This isn't actually a sports competition and what affects the people you're deriding is coming for you next.

Please explain.

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
It's pretty simple. There are 10 people in a room - 5 people have fully paid, 5 people have a waiver and have not paid. By the Anti-Bin tax calculations, that's a 50% payment figure, when in reality it's a 100% payment figure.

Which would be correct were it not for the fact that those that decide who gets a waiver and who does not are those who have a vested interest in the figure being as high as possible to further their agenda.

Also, I applaude FF/PD for this campaign. It's time we had a modern waste system in Dublin.

Indeed it is - since at the present those "producing" the waste are putting far more effort into recycling than those in charge of managing the waste infrastructure.

Please explain.

I pay waste removal charges to a private company (Noble, out in wicklow). Their charges have risen by 20% or so every six months on average, as was pointed out on the Late Late show (which by the way, Cullen disgraced himself on, and in which the bin tax protestors came off as most assuredly the more credible people). There's no alternative here - Noble have a monopoly, as in Bray. And with monopoly comes high prices, poor service and no control over the service whatsoever. And the introduction of private markets requires regulation which means leglislation - and as we all know, this government has 115 seperate pieces of legislation in the queue, only 15 of which are currently ready as bills to be "debated" (excuse the sarcasm, but you read a dail transcript or watch oireachtas report and you'll understand my meaning) in Dail Eireann, so there's a long wait for any needed legislation and legislation isn't something you can rush without significant risk.
So privitisation (as we already knew thanks to the thatcher years in the UK and their aftereffects, as well as thanks to the Eircom privitisation here) is a bad idea - and it will affect you just as surely as it will everyone else. So while you deride the bin tax protestors now because you're upset that they're refusing to pay what you already pay on the basis that it's unfair, their best interests and yours actually coincide here.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
If the Polluter Pays, why are so many people being penalised with enormous bills when they only produce 15% of the landfill waste per annum

Are you implying that those who produce the remaining 85% (business, I assume) are not being charged accordingly?

Any links?

Which would be correct were it not for the fact that those that decide who gets a waiver and who does not are those who have a vested interest in the figure being as high as possible to further their agenda.

OK, but hold on Sparks. Either people have waivers, or they don't. Are you saying that the pro-bin-tax are giving more waivers in order to make the overal payment percentages seem higher? To what end? To up their percentages but have less money? That would seem to fly in the face of your "money grabbing thieving bastids" argument.

If they are not giving excessive waivers, then surely your comment is meaningless.

And if they are giving excessive waivers, why have you been complaining so vociferously up to now about the farce of how few people qualified for them, and how little they were given, and how the entire waiver scheme was just another joke to convince people that they wouldn't be robbed. Now you're saying that its in the scheme's interest to give too many waivers.

You seem to be arbitrarily representing the situation different ways in order to suit your reponse to any given post - which is hardly a convincing approach.

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
Are you implying that those who produce the remaining 85% (business, I assume) are not being charged accordingly?

Well I wasn't actually, but it's an interesting question. I don't have numbers for how much businesses pay for waste removal - does anyone else?

OK, but hold on Sparks. Either people have waivers, or they don't. Are you saying that the pro-bin-tax are giving more waivers in order to make the overal payment percentages seem higher? To what end? To up their percentages but have less money? That would seem to fly in the face of your "money grabbing thieving bastids" argument.

Actually it doesn't jc, it just means that those pushing the bin tax need to have a brain in their heads and a basic understanding of people. Begin by introducing the tax with waivers given out generously, then when it's been introduced and accepted, begin to move the threshold for getting on the waiver scheme. It's not like it's an unprecedented move in this country...

You seem to be arbitrarily representing the situation different ways in order to suit your reponse to any given post - which is hardly a convincing approach.

I think that's more an artifact of the different ways waivers are applied in the different council areas JC.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
then when it's been introduced and accepted, begin to move the threshold for getting on the waiver scheme. It's not like it's an unprecedented move in this country...

And thats what it all boils down to, really, isn't it.

The bin-charges are ultimately wrong because you will trust nothing the government does. If they offer waivers, you claim they'll only take them back again. In fact, no matter what they do other than back down completely, it will be the first step on a slippery slope to our doom.

I accept that there's grounds to distrust the government, but surely the whole bin issue is just a cover - a mechanism to whip up public support on an issue thats significantly popular in at least some localities, because people in general aren't ever going to get off their ass-ends and just make a change on their own.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the more I see of the standard complaints, the more I'm convinced that this is the driving force behind so much of the criticism of public services. Its not that the government may be doing something unpopular, its that almost no-one trusts them to do the right thing.

Its scary, but I just don't see whipping up agitation on issues as the solution, because all you're doing is asking/telling the people you don't trust to offer a different option.....which you're not going to trust either.

Sure, we can hypothesise that sooner or later they might learn how to end this...by becoming trustworth...but while the public re-elect the usual suspects time after time after time for whatever justification they see as valid, change will never come.

jc

Sparks

Originally posted by bonkey
And thats what it all boils down to, really, isn't it.

What, the bin tax debate or the motivation behind how I feel about it? Or did you confuse the two for a moment there?

The bin-charges are ultimately wrong because you will trust nothing the government does.

Ah. You did.
Nope, sorry JC. I don't trust the current system of government, and those serving in it. But that's got little to do with whether or not the bin tax protests are correct or not.
It colours my interpretation of what I see, yes - but not necessarily in an incorrect fashion. It's not like the current members of Dail and Seanad Eireann haven't earned their reputations, after all.

If they offer waivers, you claim they'll only take them back again. In fact, no matter what they do other than back down completely, it will be the first step on a slippery slope to our doom.

It's not that simple. For a start, had you read what I've said over the last week on this, you'd know I think that the underlying fundamental idea behind the bin tax is in fact correct - but the way the government has implemented it and plans to continue implementing it, is a perversion of the fundamental idea of the bin tax (ie. that the polluter pays so that the cost is spread fairly), and then there's the whole privitisation idea in the wings - one I have serious objections to for good reason. And I'm not alone in this.

but surely the whole bin issue is just a cover - a mechanism to whip up public support on an issue thats significantly popular in at least some localities, because people in general aren't ever going to get off their ass-ends and just make a change on their own.

And now you're confusing the bin tax protestors (who are ordinary people) with the SWP politicians who saw the protests and immediately cashed in on a popular movement as politicians of all kinds do, and have been doing - FG against, FF against, SWP for, Sinn Fein trying to stay really quiet because they said for but acted against, and Labour with infighting over which way they're going to jump.
Again, this is an artifact of the system of government we have and I don't think any system is ever going to prevent it

Its not that the government may be doing something unpopular, its that almost no-one trusts them to do the right thing.

That's not lazy thinking though JC, that's born of long experience. Even the good ideas the government has thought up and implemented well (and they're rare indeed) has become a political football and had people trying to pervert it - like college fees for example.

all you're doing is asking/telling the people you don't trust to offer a different option.....which you're not going to trust either.

Yup. Which is why I'm convinced that our system of government is the real problem that needs solving, not the people in the seats.

ReefBreak

Yup. Which is why I'm convinced that our system of government is the real problem that needs solving, not the people in the seats.

So the Bin Tax isn't really the problem? It's the system of government that's the problem. Fine, you can help change the system by voting for someone else the next time. But until it changes, you're compelled to pay your waste disposal charges like everyone else.

dathi1

Listening to Ken Livingston on Marian Finnucane this morning and even Red ken said that Central Government should control local government issues like Waste collection. I would have to agree. We need more local government on local issues and more accountability so that we cant be ripped off like the people in Wicklow with their 20% rise every six months for bin collection.
Yes..Scrap the Bin Tax and reform local councils to make them more accountable.

But until it changes, you're compelled to pay your waste disposal charges like everyone else.

At an unknown cost and a unknown cost rise per year which has no accountability...eh no way.

ReefBreak

http://www.stopthebintax.com/figures.htm

This is where the figures come from that produced the "80% non-payment rate".

Out of 64,951 homes sent bills 12,786 had clear accounts at week ending 2nd May 2003. A further 6,380 have paid the first moiety. 13,839 have made other form of payments during the peroid 1/1/03 to 2/5/03. A further 18,627 households have made payments or received a waiver during the peroid 1/1/00 to 2/5/03. 13,319 households have made no payments at all.

So 1/5 have paid and 4/5 (or 80%) haven't paid up (in full or at all) yet.

This info is from Catherine Keenan, Freedom of Information Officer D/R

Council now claiming that 33% of households will face non collection i.e have paid less than E200 over the years. Council.

So in summary then:

64,951 households

12,786 clear accounts
6,380 paid first year
13,839 partial payments from Jan 03 to May 03
18,627 partial payments or waivers (from Jan 00 to May 03)
13,319 no payments

The 80% non-payment figure is complete rubbish, you can take any number of conclusions from these figures.