Election Opinion Poll

Go Figure!

If a General, European or Local Election was to be held tomorrow which party's candidates would you suppourt?

Go Figure!

Delighted to see that nobody has voted for Fianna Fail yet!

PH01

Originally posted by Go Figure!
Delighted to see that nobody has voted for Fianna Fail yet!

I have! Naana na naana.

Go Figure!

You're the only one! Naana na naana!

Sparks

Originally posted by Go Figure!
You're the only one! Naana na naana!

What, Cork hasn't found the thread yet?

Moriarty

Hang on, people would actually vote for sinn fein?

Blimey.

Villain

Originally posted by Moriarty
Hang on, people would actually vote for sinn fein?

Blimey.

I have in the past and will again, you got a problem with that??

Moriarty

Just a tad.. er.. surprised. Do you really think they would do a better job than the current shower? I presume so since you vote for them. Im rather unconvinced of sinn feins actual ability to govern rather than do what they do at the moment.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Villain

Originally posted by Moriarty
Just a tad.. er.. surprised. Do you really think they would do a better job than the current shower? I presume so since you vote for them. Im rather unconvinced of sinn feins actual ability to govern rather than do what they do at the moment.

I happen to think their policies are very good, I also happen to think Gerry Adams is the most capable leader of all the Party leaders in this country.

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
I happen to think their policies are very good, I also happen to think Gerry Adams is the most capable leader of all the Party leaders in this country.

The problem irish, is not whether or not he's capable, which most of us can agree with - the problem is what he's capable of...

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks
The problem irish, is not whether or not he's capable, which most of us can agree with - the problem is what he's capable of...

Getting things done!!;)

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
Getting things done!!;)

Getting people done, more like...

star gazer

I happen to think their policies are very good,
irish1

How would Sinn Fein pay for their spending policies, with extra service charges or tax business so we lose jobs?

dahamsta

Originally posted by star gazer
How would Sinn Fein pay for their spending policies, with extra service charges or tax business so we lose jobs?

How about taxing the rich? Or is that too bizarre a concept for pols to grasp?

I agree about Gerry Adams, but a good leader isn't enough. Plus of course Gerry Adams isn't even an elected representative down here.

adam

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks
Getting people done, more like...

Now now, if it wasn't for Gerry the Peace Process wouldn't be where it is today!!!

Villain

Originally posted by star gazer
How would Sinn Fein pay for their spending policies, with extra service charges or tax business so we lose jobs?

There policies might not go down well with the wealthy, but hey they can look after themselves. I'm not saying Sinn Fein have all the answers, no Party has.

I just think there policies are more in line with reality with the ordinary person on the street. I'm sure if you look into there policies you will find flaws, but you will also find some very good ideas.

star gazer

How about taxing the rich? Or is that too bizarre a concept for pols to grasp?
dahamsta

There policies might not go down well with the wealthy, but hey they can look after themselves.
Irish1

While i accept there is too much tax avoidance allowed by the tax system for wealthy, left wing parties have usually just managed to increase taxes on the ordinary PAYE worker. They talk about going after the wealthy but go for the point of least resistance which is not the vested interest, but the ordinary worker on the street. If Sinn Féin ever got into government they would probably do just like everybidy else, take democratic left as an example of a parrty that talked one way in opposition, but fitted right in there with government policy.
It's easy to talk about taxing the wealthy but doing it takes more than just bluster, it takes tact, reason and policy cohesion.

Originally posted by dahamsta
How about taxing the rich? Or is that too bizarre a concept for pols to grasp?

adam

I've three problems with that.
[1] I have no confidence in Sinn Féins's ability to decide the cut off point for who they decide is rich or not. I wouldn't regard some one on €40,000 rich for instance, but S.F probably would.
[2]With that in mind people would be penalised who work hard to bring home an income that they deserve, a notion that has been proven to be a failure : see the 1980's mass emmigration, high unemployment etc
[3]Consequently that would damage the incentive for people to do well and destroy the incentive for promotion and the desire to work overtime etc, etc...

mm

PH01

Originally posted by Go Figure!
You're the only one! Naana na naana!

Now there are two! Naana na naana! Naana na naana!

Also, since some people can't imagine others voting for FF or the Shinners, I can't imagine how anybody could vote for the Armchair and Smoked Salmon Socialist party!?

Oh, and that has just gone up to three - woohoo!

Villain

Originally posted by Man
I've three problems with that.

I don't think Sinn Fein would regard 40,000 as rich I'd imagine it would have to be double that at least.

FirA_Fascio

i'd love to know why people have a problem with sinn féin?

i agree completely with their policy: they're anti-fascist and anti-racist

they have some interesting views, and, as i am a republican, i would vote for them if i wasnt so lazy

anyway, we all know the fianna fáil/PD government is more corrupt than a windows kernel file, so why not let someone else take over for a bit?

Sparks

Originally posted by FirA_Fascio
i'd love to know why people have a problem with sinn féin?

anyway, we all know the fianna fáil/PD government is more corrupt than a windows kernel file, so why not let someone else take over for a bit?

Same answer to both questions - because terrorist thugs who kill and murder are actually worse than Fianna Fail.

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks
Same answer to both questions - because terrorist thugs who kill and murder are actually worse than Fianna Fail.

Have to say Sparks I TOTALLY DISAGREE with your post, I would have respected a more educated reply from yourself.

Sinn Fein HAVE IN THE PAST being directly associated with terrorism, however there aim now progress through PEACE.

If it wasn't for Sinn Fein the process wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now.

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
Have to say Sparks I TOTALLY DISAGREE with your post, I would have respected a more educated reply from yourself.

I've done this thread before. I'm not doing it again. SF are thugs playing nice in my opinion, and I'll never support them. That's it as far as I'm concerned and I don't see any point pursuing it further, irish.

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks
I've done this thread before. I'm not doing it again. SF are thugs playing nice in my opinion, and I'll never support them. That's it as far as I'm concerned and I don't see any point pursuing it further, irish.

I don't want to go into a big debate, everyone is entitled to support whatever paty they like, but your incorrect in what your saying about Sinn Fein.

sceptre

Originally posted by irish1
If it wasn't for Sinn Fein the process wouldn't be anywhere near where it is now.

If it wasn't for Sinn Fein we wouldn't have need of the process.

My logic is as good as yours.

Gerry Adams deserves some credit. That ain't the same as crediting "Sinn Fein" though (it's crediting the leader of SF for dragging most of his party along with him)

And yeah, tax the rich people, seems sound (no I'm not being sarcastic).

Villain

Originally posted by sceptre
If it wasn't for Sinn Fein we wouldn't have need of the process.

My logic is as good as yours.

Gerry Adams deserves some credit. That ain't the same as crediting "Sinn Fein" though (it's crediting the leader of SF for dragging most of his party along with him)

And yeah, tax the rich people, seems sound (no I'm not being sarcastic).

Living in the old days, most party's have changed over the years, Sinn Fein were associated with Terrorism thats a fact, but they are now associated with Peace and trying to bring a long lasting peace to the north.

People who still think Sinn Fein are thugs who are involved with Terrorism are living in the past.

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
People who still think Sinn Fein are thugs who are involved with Terrorism are living in the past.

And martin ferris's election antics were what?

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks
And martin ferris's election antics were what?

What you called them Antics, simalar to FF's say there wouldn't be cut backs etc

Are you trying to relate Ferris with Tuggery and Terrorism?

Originally posted by irish1
What you called them Antics, simalar to FF's say there wouldn't be cut backs etc

Are you trying to relate Ferris with Tuggery and Terrorism?

I think it fair to point out at this stage that Sparks has strong Kerry connections in the blood as I discovered some time ago in the right to Run thread I think and therefore may have some local knowledge of Martin ferris...
I can't wait to see how this discussion develops

Ferris did have a conviction for gun running did he not ? or was that just IRA membership...
Sparks the floor is yours....



/ or at least I'm putting on my ear muffs at any rate:p

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
I think it fair to point out at this stage that Sparks has strong Kerry connections in the blood as I discovered some time ago in the right to Run thread I think and therefore may have some local knowledge of Martin ferris...

True, but even those aren't needed, just reading the news reports from the time would be more than enough. Ferris's pals planted drugs on someone, then it's put about that he was a dealer, and then he gets kidnapped, beaten and left for dead.
And that was how his campaign was run.

Ferris did have a conviction for gun running did he not ? or was that just IRA membership...

For both. He was caught on the boat with the guns.

sceptre

Originally posted by Man
Ferris did have a conviction for gun running did he not ? or was that just IRA membership...[/SIZE]

Gun-running aye (and membership). The Marita Ann affair. Got a ten year sentence for it in December 84.

Sean O'Callaghan told the cops about it so there were two Irish corvettes shadowing the boat and a camera on a Nimrod taking pictures of the transfer. Ironically given Ferris' er, stand, on drugs, Joe Murray imported 36 tonnes of hash into Boston to pay for the guns (on the Ramsland). Robert Anderson (on the other boat involved, the Valhalla), also charged and convicted of gunrunning, had been using the Valhalla for quite a few drugs smuggles. More than anything else it was the discovery of the Marita Ann that began the death of the transatlantic guns transfers. So you could also say it was the incompetence of Martin Ferris in not picking his gunrunning groupies properly that cost the ri-ra a lot of guns. Maybe we should credit Ferris with the arrival of the peace process then:rolleyes:

Cork

Originally posted by FirA_Fascio
i'd love to know why people have a problem with sinn féin?

i agree completely with their policy: they're anti-fascist and anti-racist

Sinn Fein are known for their inclusive policys. Sinn Fein/IRA needs to make up it's mind betwwen violence and democratic politics.

The IRA needs total dis-armment & dis-bandment.

Punishment beatings need to stop.

Villain

Well I'm not going to try and say Ferris was right in what he done in the past but as I keep harping on about the past is gone.

Ferris is now an elected member of our government and May I point out Mr Charles Haughey was no stranger to gun running in the past. (don't bother asking me to prove that)

Sinn Fein are at the fore front in the Peace Process, they cannot be blaimed for punishment beatings etc.

No matter what you try to say about the northern toubles and Sinn Fein I believe in their Policies and I believe in their commitment to bringing peace to this Island.

Cork total dis-armment will come but not until BOTH sides are ready.

One point on the Northern situation, people are always saying the IRA must decommision all weapons, well what about the UVF and other Unioinist Terror groups?

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
Well I'm not going to try and say Ferris was right in what he done in the past but as I keep harping on about the past is gone.

This wasn't a decade or three ago though, was it? This was last year.

Ferris is now an elected member of our government and May I point out Mr Charles Haughey was no stranger to gun running in the past. (don't bother asking me to prove that)

You don't, I'd be happy to treat Sinn Fein the same way I'd treat Haughey.
Mind you, I doubt you'd enjoy being burnt alive...

Sinn Fein are at the fore front in the Peace Process, they cannot be blaimed for punishment beatings etc.

Sinn Fein are seperate from the IRA? So why are senior sinn fein members coming out and publically stating on the record that they were senior figures in the IRA?

Villain

Originally posted by Sparks

Sinn Fein are seperate from the IRA? So why are senior sinn fein members coming out and publically stating on the record that they were senior figures in the IRA?

Where did I say they were seperate??

Sparks

Originally posted by irish1
Where did I say they were seperate??

So are they?

sceptre

Originally posted by irish1
One point on the Northern situation, people are always saying the IRA must decommision all weapons, well what about the UVF and other Unioinist Terror groups?

Yup, them too. This isn't a kids game of "I'll show you mine for discommissioning if you show yours" though. If Sinn Fein and the IRA have adopted democratic means (and not in the 1983 Ard Fheis armalite and ballot box way), then they have to submit to democratic means, even if they wish to live in another democracy.

If they're not willing to decommission their arms until every other band of murderers does as well then we may as well dissolve the assembly, dump the Good Friday agreement and pick up the ball and go home. There isn't a shade of grey here. Either you submit to democratic means to achieve your aims OR you keep that AK47 tucked up your sleeve (or hidden in a coalshed or a hole in Donegal). You can have one OR the other. Until then why would any of us believe that Sinn Fein is a party that can ever be associated with peace? How do we know that they (or even worse, some other band of trigger-happy vigilantes) won't just dig the things up if the game doesn't suit them? You cannot be a group devoted to peace while you've surface to air missiles hidden in your backyard.

that's ignoring the whole issue of punishment beatings of course (which for the moment I am)

Villain

Originally posted by sceptre
If they're not willing to decommission their arms until every other band of murderers does as well then we may as well dissolve the assembly, dump the Good Friday agreement and pick up the ball and go home. There isn't a shade of grey here. Either you submit to democratic means to achieve your aims OR you keep that AK47 tucked up your sleeve (or hidden in a coalshed or a hole in Donegal). You can have one OR the other. Until then why would any of us believe that Sinn Fein is a party that can ever be associated with peace? [/SIZE]

If it was that simple mate it would have happened a long time ago. If you don't think Sinn Fein can be assoicated with peace I think you need to go and look at the developments uo north in the last 3 - 4years.

The IRA will not totally decommision until they are sure they can go forward through the democratic channels.

You also have to remember there are a lot of break away groups which Sinn Fein doesn't have close ties with.

You say theres no grey here it's either black or white, well without compermise you'l never get anywhere. Would you rather the IRA told Sinn Fein to forget the democratic way and go back to there bombing ways??

Sparks,

They are not completely seperate as they are in a lot of ways representng them in the Peace Process, as I already said do there are a lot of break away groups that Sinn Fein are seperate from.

Cork

Originally posted by irish1


The IRA will not totally decommision until they are sure they can go forward through the democratic channels.

Are they not so sure?

There is no room for any illeggal armies in this country.

There is no need for punishment beatings.

Shooting dead of a Garda in Ardare - brought home to many the horror of violence.

Did Martin Ferris condemn Warrington? I really have no time for SF/IRA doublespeak.

The violence in Northern Ireland has achieved nothing.

It has just deepened devision and mistrust.

Let us hope that the British & Irish governments will get the gun out of irish politics. It is decision time for SF/IRA.

(All illegal groupings will arms - the same principles should apply)

bonkey

Originally posted by irish1
One point on the Northern situation, people are always saying the IRA must decommision all weapons, well what about the UVF and other Unioinist Terror groups?

What about them? I wouln't vote for any of the so-called political wings of terrorist organisations. In that respect - as in all others - I say "treat them equally".

Either you submit to democratic means to achieve your aims OR you keep that AK47 tucked up your sleeve (or hidden in a coalshed or a hole in Donegal). You can have one OR the other.

Do you really believe that?

I wonder how many people apply that logic equally to the following three situations :

1) Northern Ireland
2) Palestine and Israel
3) The removal of Saddam Hussein and the rebuilding of Iraq

It always strikes me as funny that all three situations will produce people who will believe utterly in the righeousness of democracy, and the perfect correctness of one side or the other to pick up arms to achieve their aims.

Whats funny is that its rarely the same people. The Palestinians and Republicans are wrong, but the US is right. The Republicans are wrong, but the Palestinians are right. The Israelis are wrong, the Palestinians right, but the Republicans don't deserve a vote because they are terrorists....

The combinations are endless.

In case anyone is wondering what the point of this is....my point is that making blanket statements about the rightness or wrongness of a type of action generally tends to be self-defeating, because it will almost always prove to be something you don't apply equally yourself.

jc

sceptre

Originally posted by bonkey
Do you really believe that?

Yeah. I've not commented on the rights or wrongs of it at all. It may be fine and dandy to use both political means and armed means at the same time (or it may not) but someone can't say they're totally and solely committed to democratic means and talking and all that pulaver while there's the strong possibility that they'll abandon the democratic process if it doesn't go their way. I use the phrase "strong possibility" rather than just "possibility" because why keep the guns at all if you're totally committed to not using them? For little Billy or Seanie's birthday party next Saturday? As a souvenir? As a threat to use them if things don't go your way?

I'm not saying that terrorists or freedom fighters (or whatever) shouldn't be engaged with or shouldn't take their place at the democratic table or in a democratic parliament. I am saying that former (or current) terrorists can't claim to be totally committed to such a process while they still hold the threat of armed conflict, civil war and murder over the heads of ordinary people by holding weapons in reserve until they feel the time is right to hand them over. That's where I don't see shades of grey.

Villain

sceptre,

I hope they do give up all the arms, but I can see why they would still want to hold onto them.

I mean when the IRA give up all their arms they will have no power at all, so who would bother listening to them, they hold the guns to keep power. Or you could call it a Threat.

I want to say I don't support the IRA I condemn Terrorism and all is acts.

However I think its better to have the IRA on a permanent Cease Fire with a view to total decommisioning, than havin the Real IRA and other breakaway groups continuing to carry out acts of terror.

Cork,

Let us hope that the British & Irish governments will get the gun out of irish politics. It is decision time for SF/IRA

I wouldn't bet on it when they can't even agree on the elections.

The violence in Northern Ireland has achieved nothing.

Well thats not really correct, depending on your time frame of course.

Cork, Sinn Fein have done more for this Peace Process than FF ever will so if you think you can rely on Bertie and a few of his advisors (who met the REAL IRA) to solve this I think your very mistaken.

sceptre

Originally posted by irish1
I mean when the IRA give up all their arms they will have no power at all, so who would bother listening to them, they hold the guns to keep power. Or you could call it a Threat.

I do, unfortunately. I'd like to see them take the democratic route (they do have some rather able people in the organisation, I shouldn't have to name them). Their current electoral mandate should be enough to give them a voice in the new democratic Norn Iron.

I want to say I don't support the IRA I condemn Terrorism and all is acts.

I assumed that anyway.

However I think its better to have the IRA on a permanent Cease Fire with a view to total decommisioning, than havin the Real IRA and other breakaway groups continuing to carry out acts of terror.

Oh it is. Undoubtedly. I'd like to hope that the powersharing arrangement will give them an idea that they can give more to the people they represent through democratic means, controlling the odd council and having an input into the NI budget AND having a respected voice in the Dail than bombing and shooting anyone. Then I hope they'll do the decent thing and actually disband (though we might be waiting for this so tossing a few guns in a cement mixer would be a nice start).

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on the "can espouse democracy while holding on to arms" thing. I don't think of you as an idiot, you probably don't think of me as an idiot and it's pretty much a subtle difference in opinion as long as those arms aren't used. The ultimate aim is peace (well, the intermediate aim, hopefully the ultimate aim is to provide a better way of life for those both north and south of the border) and while there are still people in SF who believe in that aim there's a chance of it.

Cork

I mean when the IRA give up all their arms they will have no power at all, so who would bother listening to them, they hold the guns to keep power. Or you could call it a Threat.

I think for the sake of the Peace Process - they cannot continue to hold onto their guns and bombs.

I think the SDLP come out the Northern Ireland "troubles" well. I hope they will do well in any forthcoming elections.

I think, unionists need assurance and for sate security - have bunchs of illegal arms around this state.

SF/IRA cannot be allowed to use such weapons as a bargaining chip.

(Again the same point goes for all illegal arms)

monument

Thank god for bonkey’s post – it is nice to see some one has sense.

Saying “The violence in Northern Ireland has achieved nothing” could be compared to saying “The violence for Ireland’s independence achieved nothing” or “The violence in the American war of independence achieved nothing”.

Saying that the IRA and the Palestinians “terrorists” (etc...) should disband and get dispose of all of their weapons, at this point in both cases, is pointless because their rightful goals of freedom/independence of the people they clam to be fighting for would be quashed.

Anyway, the best example of a democracy power that holds arms and still clams to be democracy is simple most western governments. Yes, I am simplifying things, but most people do when they talk about “terrorists”.

gurramok

This discussion is a nice diversion away from the real issues that affect the day to day lives of ordinary people where it matters.

Is the north and what heppened there really No. 1 priority on the list of people's concerns in 2003?

What matters most to me is the young terror gangs that peddle in murder and drugs that have whole communities in Dublin living in fear(murder rate high), including the one where I live, not something that happens 150 odd miles away in 'another country' but literally at the doorstep !

Armed garda patrols(& ERU) are now regular near me so crime would be no.1 along with tax, corruption etc as priorites at top of list at next election.

Villain

Sceptre,

I certainly don't think of you as an idiot, as you say we both want the same things, Peace.

As for disbandment I think that will follow decommisioning, I mean once they give up their arms unless they join SF they will have very little voice.

Cork,

Well the only piece of my last post that you replied to was the piece that wasn't directed at you.

As I said Cork and maybe you might comment on it.

Cork, Sinn Fein have done more for this Peace Process than FF ever will so if you think you can rely on Bertie and a few of his advisors (who met the REAL IRA) to solve this I think your very mistaken.

Gurramok,

I agree there are a lot of problems with the state of this country in relation to crime especially Limerick and Dublin. I'm sure Cork will offer some insight into FF's policies that will correct this.

monument

Originally posted by gurramok
This discussion is a nice diversion away from the real issues that affect the day to day lives of ordinary people where it matters.

Is the north and what heppened there really No. 1 priority on the list of people's concerns in 2003?

What matters most to me is the young terror gangs that peddle in murder and drugs that have whole communities in Dublin living in fear(murder rate high), including the one where I live, not something that happens 150 odd miles away in 'another country' but literally at the doorstep !

Armed garda patrols(& ERU) are now regular near me so crime would be no.1 along with tax, corruption etc as priorites at top of list at next election.

Yes it is.

It’s also slightly funny (or stupid) that when people talk about SF they can rant on about what the IRA have done/are doing, or the weapons they have when, when the current government lets crime get clearly well out of control.

That also brings me to making the sad point about SF in the republic - unfortunately in the south they have no political figureheads - they are nearly unheard if not totally unheard in the Dall. I’m told the reason been is that when they do speak against others the words bombs and guns are uttered back to them, at that they quiet down.

(It’s pretty much the same thing when SF is talked about on this board, but thankfully people here don’t quiet down as quickly.)

Having pointed that out, I was also told SF are good at a local level – “they get things done”.

(BTW SF is by no way my ideal party, it would be more of MIX between a democratic, Labour, Green, FF, SF… to be honest to myself my ideal party would find it very hard to exist in our current polity system as for a start it would be too honest - sorry about the rant).

star gazer

Ferris is now an elected member of our government
Irish1

Elected member of parliament, not government. It's interesting to see Fianna Fáil and sinn Féin at each other when it looks decidedly possible that they would be in coallition with each other after the next election. The republican party south and the republican party north. Martin Ferris might get a government post yet.