Who voted for Fianna Fáil?

tomcosgrave

I'm amazed that people still vote for Fianna Fáil after all the scandal and messing around over the past couple of decades.

And in the past couple of weeks I've been wondering what people who voted for them in the last election were thinking when they voted for them.

Do they regret doing so now?

If they do regret it, what are the reasons?
And again, if they don't, what are the reasons?

Not trying to be combative, but I'm just curious as to why people voted for them.

If you did vote for them, and are reading this, maybe you could answer? Annonymously, if you wish.

Cheers,
Tom

Lukin Black

I voted (for the first time) for Sinn Féin, but only cause the candidate is a local fella, and very active in the community. My second choice (i.e. who ended up getting my vote) was Cecilia Keaveney of Fianna Fáil. I thought she was the best of a bad bunch, and am rather disgusted at how inactive she's been.

They'll not be getting my vote next time, anyhoo.

DaithiSurfer

I voted for them.
Partly because i knew the candidate and he assured me that they would be doing certain things that i thought were needed.
And partly because there is noone else to vote for.
FF do a ****e job but i'm desperatley trying to find an alternative.

Won't be voting for them again thats for sure.
But there is only a choice now of muppet club 1 and muppet club 2.

I need a winner to vote for. Don't want to waste my vote on a non party because that helps FF get back.
And as for the PDs, hang em all.

Yavvy

I voted for them..they were the best option at the time. and In my area ..still are. My local TD has helped our community quite a lot and seems to be a hardworking man. I dont vote on overall party policy I vote on the local man and issues. Which is why SF got my second vote.

Sparks

Originally posted by Alany
I voted for them..they were the best option at the time. and In my area ..still are. My local TD has helped our community quite a lot and seems to be a hardworking man. I dont vote on overall party policy I vote on the local man and issues. Which is why SF got my second vote.

Okay, I'm sorry to appear to be hijacking the thread, but I've heard that story so often now, that I have to ask:

What, specifically, has your local candidate done for the community?

Because I have this sneaking suspicion that a lot of candidates are taking credit for local acts where none is actually due.

Yavvy

He helped my local GAA team ( of which I have been a member of since I was 8) get New private football pithces with a concrete dressing room ( hot showers, benches and a toilet no less)

Previously we were playing of awful council pitches that had burned out cars, broken bottles and all sorts of nastyness on them...Also we were being moved form one crappy pitch to another. and changing in our cars at the side of a road .Now we have facalitys to develop our club.

Also he personally helped get speed bumps put on a very dangerous road.

Ther are other things he has done and he is well regarded. Im sure I could think of others if pushed.

gandalf

Originally posted by Alany
He helped my local GAA team ( of which I have been a member of since I was 8) get New private football pithces with a concrete dressing room ( hot showers, benches and a toilet no less)

Previously we were playing of awful council pitches that had burned out cars, broken bottles and all sorts of nastyness on them...Also we were being moved form one crappy pitch to another. and changing in our cars at the side of a road .Now we have facalitys to develop our club.

Also he personally helped get speed bumps put on a very dangerous road.

Ther are other things he has done and he is well regarded. Im sure I could think of others if pushed.

Now I thought that TD's were there to sort out national issues and stuff like that was what councilors were for.

That little exert shows exactly what is wrong with irish politics and why we have a pack of useless twats who can only see the small picture in power.

Gandalf.

Sparks

Originally posted by Alany
He helped my local GAA team ( of which I have been a member of since I was 8) get New private football pithces with a concrete dressing room ( hot showers, benches and a toilet no less)

Okay. I worked in the National Target Shooting Association for a while, so I know something of this.
There's this thing called the Sports Capital Grant scheme. In other words, you fill out a form, send it in, and they evaluate it. If he "helped" with this, it means that you'd lose the funding if it was found out, because there are rules against canvassing in the application process.

Also he personally helped get speed bumps put on a very dangerous road.

That's a counciller's job, and it can be done by any citizen, or residents association or whatever. In fact, he's not supposed to "help" there either, it's the NRA's job.

Ther are other things he has done and he is well regarded. Im sure I could think of others if pushed.

Consider this a polite push so...

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Sparks

That's a counciller's job, and it can be done by any citizen, or residents association or whatever. In fact, he's not supposed to "help" there either, it's the NRA's job.

Who's to say that he isn't a councillor?

Even if he isn't a councillor, why can't he lobby for action like that to be taken? My local T.D in Cork South Central (FG) recently pushed for a zebra crossing a few hundred metres from where I am. Has he done something underhanded that I've failed to see?

therecklessone

I second what Sparks has had to say.

Sparks

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Who's to say that he isn't a councillor?

No-one - right now.
Obviously, that's going to change.

Even if he isn't a councillor, why can't he lobby for action
like that to be taken? My local T.D in Cork South Central (FG) recently pushed for a zebra crossing a few hundred metres from where I am. Has he done something underhanded that I've failed to see?

No, if he did so as a normal citizen. If he did so as a TD, he's influencing the state to favour one area over another, which is fundamentally wrong when you're talking about things like zebra crossings and so on - because there's a finite budget, and it should be allocated on the basis of how badly it's needed, not on the basis of how many TDs are lobbying for it and how highly they're ranked.

Otherwise, you'd have a distribution of road deaths that showed where TDs didn't live.

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by Sparks

No, if he did so as a normal citizen. If he did so as a TD, he's influencing the state to favour one area over another, which is fundamentally wrong when you're talking about things like zebra crossings and so on - because there's a finite budget, and it should be allocated on the basis of how badly it's needed, not on the basis of how many TDs are lobbying for it and how highly they're ranked.

Ahh, I never thought of it that way. In my area (and I presume many others) however, it does seem common practice for T.D's to lobby on such issues.

Sparks

Originally posted by Raskolnikov
Ahh, I never thought of it that way. In my area (and I presume many others) however, it does seem common practice for T.D's to lobby on such issues.

Yeah, but it's also common practise for TDs to do things that ought to get them sacked or even thrown in jail!

Yavvy

Ok I really should never have posted on the Political board considering im about as political as pebble. So excuse me if I dont backup my comments with political knoledge.

When election time comes around I dont care which party I vote for because I have no confidence in any of them "as a party" .
FF, FG, Labour, PD's, SF and so on...I just dont trust them.

SO the only way I feel I can use my vote well is but voting for the people that have served my community. This started with Chris Flood who was a neighbour. A bloody nice bloke and a hard worker and someone who was really concerned about the community.

Im sure you all know how hard Chris Flood served Ireland and Sw Dublin. Such as Promting Volunteering ( a very important cause) . Im also sure you know he is no longer a TD because of health reasons but he still campanigns for FF and he asked for my vote...so I gave it to him. His replacements have not been as good and maybe Sean Crow has been more active in our area but they ( the FF TD's) are still extreamly active in our area.

Thats my reasons, Im sure the political minded person will think me foolish, but thats just how I vote. I will continue to vote that way too.

Imposter

Gandalf and Sparks,

What is a TD who is representing their constituency allowed/supposed to do for their constituency? Or is it all supposed to be for the general good at a national level?

Surely the role of a TD is to influence matters at a national level for the good of their constituency.

solice

Originally posted by Alany
Thats my reasons, Im sure the political minded person will think me foolish, but thats just how I vote. I will continue to vote that way too.

you vote for someone in a general election who you feel can best serve the country as a whole. you vote for someone in the local elections who you feel can best serve you community.

parish pump politics is destroying this country. putting people in power who have no understanding on how to run a country is a terrible thing to do. filling Dáil Eireann with td's that are ONLY concerned with the potholes on your road is a crime against the country.

in a general election, vote for the people that can best serve this country, that can work to better the country.

jongore

I voted FF in the last election, mainly becasue as bad as they are they're the best available.

FG don't have a leader and the Labour party are too nice to the unions. (There was no PD canidate in my area)

Yavvy

in a general election, vote for the people that can best serve this country, that can work to better the country.

And How may I ask do I do that ? Seriously how does one go about deciding if a person is fit to server the counrty ? espically if they have never been a TD ?

I would like to knwo how people go about their decision making process.

If someone tells me they look at party policy they you can Fock off cause I dont think for one second that any of they major parties have any intention upholding any promise.

As I expected you think me foolish for selecting a "local man" but its the only way I know to choose someone. Also I like to think that FF is such a big party that they would only put forward representitives capable of serving the entire country.

I feel i am one of many people that vote in this way ..other wise an independant or single issue candidate would never ger elected.

Originally posted by solice

parish pump politics is destroying this country.

That may well have a lot of merit, but that said it is what the people want otherwise they wouldn't vote for the politican in question.
Theres no point in complaining about this imho, it's a waste of energy as long as people are going to remain human and selfish and they will remain that way.

A Brain study of the four out of ten voters who always vote FF regardless would be helpfull, the civil war surely has little relevance to an 18 year old voter today, yet there are many who will vote for paddyFF because Mammy and Daddy Hate the Blue shirts { even though it was their Granny who told them about them...}

mm

solice

Originally posted by Alany
And How may I ask do I do that ? Seriously how does one go about deciding if a person is fit to server the counrty ? espically if they have never been a TD ?

...............................................................

As I expected you think me foolish for selecting a "local man" but its the only way I know to choose someone. Also I like to think that FF is such a big party that they would only put forward representitives capable of serving the entire country.

how do you do that. when they come to knock on your door talk to them. question them. argue with them. but most importantly, listen to them. listen to what they have to say, not just on local issues but on important national and international issues. invite them into your house if you want and talk to them on your own ground.
how do you know? you find out the same way you find out everything, you talk to everyone and you listen to everyone and you make an educated guess.

its also quite a scary thought if you think that ff being such a big party would only put capable candidates forward. in my own constituency there are 3 ff tds. not one of them have done anything worthwhile on both national or local issues except for incitment of hatred against assylum seekers

HJ Simpson

I voted FF in the past purely cause the opposition only put forward an arguement of "we would do what ff do" they dont have an alternative plan to push.
In the next election though I think I will think long and hard before voting FF again. They just have to many skeletons in the closet!!!
HJS

mycroft

As I expected you think me foolish for selecting a "local man" but its the only way I know to choose someone. Also I like to think that FF is such a big party that they would only put forward representitives capable of serving the entire country.

That is the funniest thing I have ever heard, ever.

If you actually believe that I can get you weekend tickets for the Dart real cheap.

Yavvy

Originally posted by solice
how do you do that. when they come to knock on your door talk to them. question them. argue with them. but most importantly, listen to them. listen to what they have to say, not just on local issues but on important national and international issues. invite them into your house if you want and talk to them on your own ground.
how do you know? you find out the same way you find out everything, you talk to everyone and you listen to everyone and you make an educated guess.

its also quite a scary thought if you think that ff being such a big party would only put capable candidates forward. in my own constituency there are 3 ff tds. not one of them have done anything worthwhile on both national or local issues except for incitment of hatred against assylum seekers

Yes but as I stated im not political. I don't have an interest in it. So I wouldn't know what questions to ask. As for listening to them Well I already said I don't have one bit of faith in party policy ( which is what they would tell me) ..what's the point in listening to them ?

I can only base my decisions on things I know to be true. I don't trust them and I will not take them at their word.

Yes, Im sure im being very naive thinking FF will select people worthy of leading the country but it makes sense to me. These people are professional politicians yes ? They are part of Irelands largest and most popular party yes ? and they are in one of Dublin's largest voting areas ?
Its better than voting for a bin tax independent isn't it ?

FF get my vote cause I have seen them in action at a local level and Im happy with that, I dont really understand politics at a higher level other than the issues that effect me each day.
(like transport and health)

I understand that my way of thinking must be frustrating to those of you with a genuine interest in Irish government. But my problem is im not interested in politics at all, Im not a political person. So when we have general elections how do I make my decision ? Do I listen to people I don't trust ? Do I study pages and pages of party promises ( most of which will be pipe dreams ) ? or do I vote for people that have effected my life for the better ? ??????????

Yavvy

Originally posted by mycroft
That is the funniest thing I have ever heard, ever.

If you actually believe that I can get you weekend tickets for the Dart real cheap.

<moderated>

I realise I'm well outta my dept posting on the politics board, and im open to all sorts of poo flinging but at least back it up with a point ...you never know I might learn something


<moderated>

m1ke

TD's primary function should be to work to improve legislation.

A way to change things to lessen the effects of people who just vote for local concerns would be to bring in a list voting system like they have in many other European countries.

You get a list of people under various party headings ranked 1-100 or whatever, you vote for the party itself, not the person. If the party gets 25% of the votes people 1-25 on the list get elected(that's a simple e.g).

Alany - most people vote the way you do, and in the current system we have it's a logical way to vote. The people getting the digs in are self righteous and taking the moral high ground.

Sparks

What is a TD who is representing their constituency allowed/supposed to do for their constituency? Or is it all supposed to be for the general good at a national level?

It's supposed to be for the general good at a national level using what's learnt at a local level.

For examples:

At a local level, lots of complaints are heard about the rail system, so the TD pushes for an upgraded rail network. As opposed to pushing for a new coat of paint for the local station.

Some unscrupulous developers use a loophole in planning laws to make a quick buck by turning land into a golf course, failing the business deliberately and then building cheap houses in an area that hasn't got the infrastructure for it. TD pushes for reform of planning laws for the country - that way not only is bray's problem solved, it's prevented from happenning elsewhere.

And so on...

As to "helping the community", that's not his job. He's not a community worker, he's a representative in the national government. Trying to get more cash devoted to his parish is just self-defeating on many levels, and it doesn't get anything done right in the long term.

Cork

Who voted for Fianna Fáil?

I did.

FF set up the national pension reserve fund. This is to provide for pensions in years to come. It is an example of strategic planning. Yet some Irish policital partys believed that this should be raided. FF took the long term view and were 100% aganist the raiding of this fund.

This government believe in low personal taxation - to this end they delivered.

I think the Irish were satisfied with their SSIAs.

Michael Martin has made moves to reform the health system. Noel Dempsey has made moves to help particiapation in education.

Whilst the opposition were aganist the partial imposition of third level fees to those earning over€100,000.

Originally posted by Cork
I did.

FF set up the national pension reserve fund. This is to provide for pensions in years to come. It is an example of strategic planning. Yet some Irish policital partys believed that this should be raided. FF took the long term view and were 100% aganist the raiding of this fund.

Not a good example Cork considering they could have invested that fund in infrastructure from which they could have got a guaranteed return,but they allowed it to be squandered on the stock market instead.
Indeed it would have made more if it was simply used to pay off the national debt even at current low interest rates.

This government believe in low personal taxation - to this end they delivered.

Government being the operative word, I doubt if they'd have rates as low as they are without some PD influence over the years.

mm

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
FF set up the national pension reserve fund. This is to provide for pensions in years to come. It is an example of strategic planning. Yet some Irish policital partys believed that this should be raided. FF took the long term view and were 100% aganist the raiding of this fund.

They also left a quarter of it sitting around uninvested for quite some time. And when you look at what they did invest, you note that their management lead to a 10% loss in the fund as of last June. And I note that you've said nothing about the money lost because of FF's decision to massively overprice the Eircom IPO.

This government believe in low personal taxation - to this end they delivered.

That's giving them credit for an economic boom that was not of their making. Unless you'd like to give them credit for a global economic boom...

I think the Irish were satisfied with their SSIAs

Nope, not the ones that saw the cost of the scheme.

Michael Martin has made moves to reform the health system.

Indeed, but it sure took long enough. How long have doctors pointed out the problem before steps were taken?

Noel Dempsey has made moves to help particiapation in education.

Bollocks he has. He tried to reintroduce direct fees. That's a step back with no guarantee that inclusion was going to benefit from the income generated, which meant that inclusion would simply be damaged by the measure.

Whilst the opposition were aganist the partial imposition of third level fees to those earning over€100,000.

Actually, Dempsey never set the threshold past a vague hand-waving affair that didn't even specify if the total family income was being considered or that of a single parent. And the opposition weren't what stopped the measure, it was the outcry from those who were looking at getting a bill for several grand if it went through.

Cork

To be fair, taxation has come down. It makes a change from high taxation & high spend governments. People don't want to payer higher tax.

The pensions fund was a very good idea of forward thinking. Money is being spend to improve the grid lock of around our capital city. As a country - we are doing well.

Much money is being spent on infrastucture. But as a country - we also need Value for our tax money.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
To be fair, taxation has come down. It makes a change from high taxation & high spend governments. People don't want to payer higher tax.

To be fair cork, you'd have to point out that the reduction in taxation was made possible by external events that had nothing to do with the FF government that happened to be lucky enough to be there at the time. And to be fair, you'd have to point out that the high taxation of the 1980s era can be attributed in large part to the actions of the FF government at the time and their economic policies. Mind you, given that they have a record of not checking the qualifications of their minister of finance, it's not surprising...

The pensions fund was a very good idea of forward thinking.

It was a good idea - but it was a long way from being either original or well implemented.

Money is being spend to improve the grid lock of around our capital city. As a country - we are doing well.

Seriously cork, what are you smoking and can I get some of it too please?

Much money is being spent on infrastucture. But as a country - we also need Value for our tax money.

What a load of cobblers. The money for infrastructure came straight from the EU - and in 2007, the bill is going to arrive. And our current economy (which has seen enormous amounts of money wasted) won't be able to sustain it.

Lawnkiller

I didn't vote for FF. I didn't vote for FG either. I was asked why by a friend who is associated with FG. I told him that when the fix things and start being original as opposed to watered down versions of everyone elses blab, my faith may be restored. At present I'd have more luck getting a Ski-holiday in Hell. Best get my ski gear ready then.....

sixtysix

what about people who never ever voted fianna fail- i had a friend who believed for years that fianna fail were corrupt.
he took this to such extremes that we thought he was paranoid.
he turned out to be correct
however i have never voted for fianna fail, i am wondering why i waste my vote on opposition parties who seem determinded to stay in opposition.
people voted fianna fail in the last election in the full knowledge that their election promises could not be kept and in the full knowledge that the opposition could not deliver.
remember they voted out the opposition.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
To be fair cork, you'd have to point out that the reduction in taxation was made possible by external events that had nothing to do with the FF government that happened to be lucky enough to be there at the time. And to be fair, you'd have to point out that the high taxation of the 1980s era can be attributed in large part to the actions of the FF government at the time and their economic policies. Mind you, given that they have a record of not checking the qualifications of their minister of finance, it's not surprising...

No, major reductions in taxation came under the FF/PD government. The FG/Lab government of 1982-1987 had little control over public expenditure. This lead to an increase in the national debt from £12 to £24 billion.

Rates should never been axed in 1977. They should be introduced again. Services will have to be paid for. With low taxation - people will have to accept services will have to be paid for.

Unemployment in Ireland is one of the lowest in the EU, so too are personal taxation rates.

The ceasefire was in shambles prior to the last FF/PD government.
Yet, people find it hard to acknowlege achievements .

This country still has problems. Solutions for problems in health need solving. This will be done changing structures. What solutions does our opposition have.

The leaders of the oppsition are within FF. Rabbitt & Kenny ought really to focus on policy. Joe Higgins (Rubbish tags) and Jackie Healy Rae seem to be outproforming them.

Sparks

No, major reductions in taxation came under the FF/PD government.

And so I repeat myself...
To be fair cork, you'd have to point out that the reduction in taxation was made possible by external events that had nothing to do with the FF government that happened to be lucky enough to be there at the time.

The FG/Lab government of 1982-1987 had little control over public expenditure. This lead to an increase in the national debt from £12 to £24 billion.

Rates should never been axed in 1977. They should be introduced again. Services will have to be paid for. With low taxation - people will have to accept services will have to be paid for.

I've yet to see anyone demanding something for nothing Cork.
I've seen them go to jail rather than pay for something twice, but that's another story and another thread.

Yet, people find it hard to acknowlege achievements .

Possibly because of the high price paid for any such achievements, and the rather low quality of those achievements.

What solutions does our opposition have.

Our? So cork, are you actually a member of FF?
And to answer the question, whether or not someone else has a solution is not a valid reason to return FF to power.

Rabbitt & Kenny ought really to focus on policy.

Really? And here was me listening to them doing exactly that. GeeGollyWhiz...

Joe Higgins (Rubbish tags) and Jackie Healy Rae seem to be outproforming them.

JHR?
Wow, you're hitting the hard stuff tonight Cork, if you think JHR is making any impact outside of Kerry. And he's doing that at a price - the lion's share of civil contracts in Kerry went to, shock-and-horror, his son...

star gazer

I think, to be fair that our national politicians are more locally orientated because local government has so little relevance, most TDs until recently held local authority seats and the fact that we have so many national politicians per head of population means they are more accessible for local issues.
I didn't vote for Fianna Fáil. I see them as being Short sighted and self serving. However there are Fianna Fáil politicians that are above that. Noel Dempsey, Brian Lenihan and possibly Brian Cowen and Seamus Brennan have shown the ability to rise above the short term goal and push for something they believe in.

Michael Martin has made moves to reform the health system.
Cork

Bollocks he has.
Sparks

To coin a phrase. He has done nothing to reform the health service, he has talked about all these fantastic reports to do it
but he has done nothing. It will take a different minister and probably a different government to actually get something done to fundamentally reform the Health services.

Whilst the opposition were aganist the partial imposition of third level fees to those earning over€100,000.
Cork

As i recall it was noel dempsey's colleagues in both Fianna Fáil and the PDs that shot that one down.

To be fair, taxation has come down. It makes a change from high taxation & high spend governments. People don't want to payer higher tax.
Cork

The previous government raised spending by 27% in the five months before the last general election. The rest of the year spending grew by 1%. They were very selective in their high spending ways but they did high spend. Where is the budget surplus gone???
Last year saw a big jump in stealth taxes, the government fueled just under two percent of the inflation rate. In effect a lot worse than a two percent rise in both income tax bands for the PAYE worker. Low tax my posterior!

Cork

Originally posted by star gazer


Last year saw a big jump in stealth taxes, the government fueled just under two percent of the inflation rate. In effect a lot worse than a two percent rise in both income tax bands for the PAYE worker. Low tax my posterior!

It was state companies like CIE,ESB, AN Post, VHI & RTE who applied are were sanctioned increases.

What we need is to have competition and let companies like CIE sink or swim.

Competition has improved Aer Lingus. Thanks to Michael O Leary.

Seamus Brennan urgently needs to liberalise the transport market in this country. These slelth taxes largely came from simi state companies.

I think many of these should be privatised. What purpose does 2fm serve?

This government has delivered on tax reform and even with the slow down in the economy - the jobless situation is much worse across the EU.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
It was state companies like CIE,ESB, AN Post, VHI & RTE who applied are were sanctioned increases.
What we need is to have competition and let companies like CIE sink or swim.

Yes, wonderful idea. Let's take one of the smallest markets in the EU, then ask private companies to come into Ireland, expend billions of euros on capital investment into infrastructure, and then try to run a competitive company on an income that ought to pay off the investment in fifty years assuming 100% of market share and no slump in the economy.
Yeah, that'll work.
And as Maggie Thatcher showed, privitisation just works so well :rolleyes:

Competition has improved Aer Lingus. Thanks to Michael O Leary.

Actually, it hasn't. MOL's very, very, very dodgy and borderline operating practises (aircraft turned around too fast, aircraft taking off in crosswinds above their rated maximum, pilots pushed too hard and *very* dodgy hours accounting) haven't actually improved aer lingus - as the cabin crew affair is showing. What they have done is try to cut so far into the downtime for pilots on transatlantic runs that if the pilots hadn't threatened industrial action, you'd be getting on a transatlantic flight with a heavily jetlagged pilot who got 4 hours sleep before coming into work and cleaning the plane before boarding. So no cork, it's not better.

Seamus Brennan urgently needs to liberalise the transport market in this country. These slelth taxes largely came from simi state companies.

Bollocks.
Stealth taxes like VAT and illegal ones like VRT have nothing to do with semi-state bodies and everything to do with the government.

I think many of these should be privatised. What purpose does 2fm serve?

Cork, you would think they need to be privatised. That doesn't mean it would work. What it would ensure is social discrimination based on personal wealth. Companies like Eircom (now there's an example of what privitisation in Ireland will look like), ESB and An Post have what we call a social mandate. You might want to look that up Cork, though I'd suggest something other than a Fianna Fail leaflet to do so...

This government has delivered on tax reform

Indeed it has. PAYE went down.
Pity VAT and other indirect taxes rose so far though, but hey - indirect taxation has such a wider net, because everyone has to pay VAT, from middle-class families to OAPs living on borderline pensions while waiting to die on hospital waiting lists.
And that's not even mentioning illegal taxes like VRT.

and even with the slow down in the economy - the jobless situation is much worse across the EU.

What about the EU excluding the other smaller eastern european countries? And about this "slow-down" - what happened to the huge amount of money coming into the country from the economic boom and EU structural funds? Where are the new hospitals, the new motorways, the LUAS, the upgraded rail network? Where's the phone network? (Not "where's the new one" Cork, where is the old one we paid taxes for????)

Hmph.
You know, if we were able to set out an honest independent history of Fianna Fail's record in government compared to what the correct decisions were, including what personal gains FF TDs got from their decisions and what ignored consultants advised at the time, the problem wouldn't be re-electing FF, it'd be keeping them out of jail.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Let's take one of the smallest markets in the EU, then ask private companies to come into Ireland, expend billions of euros on capital investment into infrastructure, and then try to run a competitive company on an income that ought to pay off the investment in fifty years assuming 100% of market share and no slump in the economy.

Well, the luas fiasco in Dublin shows in Dublin - Public private partnership is the way to build schools, prisons, roads, bridges & hospitals.
The government should absolutely ignore the media and engage in complete reform of public services in this country.

Pity VAT and other indirect taxes rose so far though, but hey - indirect taxation has such a wider net, because everyone has to pay VAT, from middle-class families to OAPs living on borderline pensions while waiting to die on hospital waiting lists.

Well, Who will forget the meagre increases the OAPs got under the raindow government by a socialist mimister for social welfare?

This government has significantly increased the OAP pension.

Hospital Waiting Lists were there for years. The FF/PD government has increased health spending. But what we need is health system reform.

The health Boards are on the way out. Some hospitals will be down graded or shut - while others will be centres of excellence.

TDs will indeed come under much local pressure.

personal gains FF TDs got from their decisions and what ignored consultants advised at the time,

Could you name a party with no bad apples? Any TD ex or otherwise - they are laws.

Overall - this government has not increased taxes on work & it has done well on NI policy. We had a guy from Fine Gael who refererred to the peace process as the "f****** Peace Process". There is a global economic slowdown & this country is not doing as badly as many other countrys.

I think people miss the "Celtic Tiger" - but our ecomony is not proforming too badly despite international factors.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Well, the luas fiasco in Dublin shows in Dublin - Public private partnership is the way to build schools, prisons, roads, bridges & hospitals.

Big round hairy ones cork. The Luas fiasco shows that the civil service didn't have the expertise to properly execute the tender process, not that public-private partnership is the way to go. Public-private partnership will not work any better than we've seen with LUAS, if the civil service refuse to hire consultants that know what they're doing, and instead haul numbers out of their navels onto the back of an envelope and then use those numbers to arrange a tender for a multi-million euro project.

The government should absolutely ignore the media and engage in complete reform of public services in this country.

As it did with Ducas?
As it did with the few good ideas that it introduced, like the FOI act?
Hmph. I wouldn't trust this government to pay their taxes Cork, why would we trust them to completely reform every public service without real oversight and accountability, after the mess they made of Eircom?

Well, Who will forget the meagre increases the OAPs got under the raindow government by a socialist mimister for social welfare?

Not the OAPs, that's for sure - they're too busy dying on waiting lists for routine surgery while hospitals get closed down because despite being in power longer than any other government in the state's history, and with more money than any other government in the state's history, this current shower have never fixed the health service, instead pushing parish pump politics to the limit.

This government has significantly increased the OAP pension.

This government has had to increase it because of inflation from poor economic choices in contravention of what most economic experts were telling them, and even so, it's not increased much in real terms thanks to the rise in the cost of living, again with much thanks to the "let them shop around" economics that have been displayed by this lot for years.

Hospital Waiting Lists were there for years.

But never to this degree cork.

The FF/PD government has increased health spending. But what we need is health system reform.

We have needed reform for decades Cork. We knew it before Bertie's Bunch took over the Dail. The FF/PD government has had more time and money than any other government in the state's history, cork. And they've done nothing. Now the money is gone, and the bill for the EU funding is coming in 2007. How exactly are they going to bring in reform now? And why should we believe they even would?

The health Boards are on the way out. Some hospitals will be down graded or shut - while others will be centres of excellence.

There are people dying on waiting lists and you want to close hospitals????
Are you out of your mind, or just trying to reduce pressure on the Pension fund by killing off people being paid out of it?
And "centres of excellence"? Don't make me laugh.

TDs will indeed come under much local pressure.

And no doubt will engage in more parish pump politics, making things even worse than they are today.

Could you name a party with no bad apples?

Gee Cork, I guess I'd have to say none and then mention something about direct democracy, or the None of the Above campaign... :rolleyes:
Nice to know you read my posts though :rolleyes:

Any TD ex or otherwise - they are laws.

Cork, with oratory like that, you ought to be a FF TD yourself...

Overall - this government has not increased taxes on work

Yes, but it compensated by increasing taxes on everything else, while not paying taxes themselves and managing to spend the biggest budget surplus in the nation's history without any serious improvements to show for it.

& it has done well on NI policy.

Today's news has Bertie "despondant" about the prospect for agreement between Unionists and Sinn Fein.
I'd say that it's not looking good Cork, but something occours to me - why is the leader of the country spending so much time working on the problems of a foreign country while our problems just go unsolved???
It's not that NI has no merit, lives saved are lives saved, but I have to wonder when he spends less time in the Dail in a week than I do in traffic in a day, especially for the money he earns and the priviledges he enjoys.

We had a guy from Fine Gael who refererred to the peace process as the "f****** Peace Process".

And a guy from Fianna Fail that got drunk, drove at twice the speed limit, mounted a pavement, stuck a woman shattering her leg (it's still not certain she'll ever walk properly again) and then had to be restrained from fleeing the scene by passers-by.

I'll take the twat that gets annoyed at the disproportionate expenditure of resources on a foreign country over the one that will run you down and then bugger off without calling for an ambulance. Any day of the week and twice on sundays.

There is a global economic slowdown & this country is not doing as badly as many other countrys.

True - if you include Afghanistan and Iraq in the list of "other countries". But if you instead ask "given the time and money they had, are we doing anywhere near as well as we should be doing?", the answer comes out closer to demanding prosecutions for criminal negligence than to "erra sure, we're grand thanks".

I think people miss the "Celtic Tiger" - but our ecomony is not proforming too badly despite international factors.

Bollocks it is Cork. Despite Bertie's rush to prostitute this country to the US by measures up to and including flagrant disregard for the UN, international law, the Constitution and the largest civil protests in the history of the state, large companies are looking at the bottom line and deciding that Ireland is not an economic place to be based any longer, and are pulling out of here as fast as they can. Which is precisely what we said would happen, if you'd care to go back and read what was written at the time. Of course, that'd be a bit embarressing, wouldn't it Cork?

And given the disgraceful mess that FF have left the nation's economy, infrastructure and education system in, we can't get those companies back for at least a decade.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

And given the disgraceful mess that FF have left the nation's economy, infrastructure and education system in, we can't get those companies back for at least a decade.

People of this country pay low personal direct tax. The umployment rate is low by internatioanal standards & our education system is also recognised as pretty good internationally.

Now about tax dodging. Many more were engaged in this. Look the Dirt enquiry? Look at state banks??


Health is being reformed and hard choices will have to be made in this area.

But, look at the alternative policys of the Labour & Fine Gael Partys? The facts are people have low personal tax and unemployment is low by international standards.

Our economy is preforming better than most in the EU. Credit where Credit is due. Bertie & Mary are not doing too badly.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
People of this country pay low personal direct tax.

And high indirect tax which doesn't take into account financial ability. And illegal taxes as well.

The umployment rate is low by internatioanal standards & our education system is also recognised as pretty good internationally.

Yes on the former (with a caveat of "for now" given the recent job losses), and no on the latter. And you can take that from someone who's in the education sector Cork, and therefore actually knows what the real story is.

Now about tax dodging. Many more were engaged in this. Look the Dirt enquiry? Look at state banks??

If one person commits a crime, you charge them with it.
If two people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If three people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If four people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
If five people commit a crime, you charge them with it.
...
If N people commit a crime, you charge them with it.

Get the idea Cork? If not, here it is again:
"Everyone else is doing it" is not a valid defence for an illegal act.

Health is being reformed and hard choices will have to be made in this area.

Health isn't being reformed and we've always known there would be hard choices. I just don't think your favorite party is suitable to make those choices, any more than I'd think george best was a suitable candidate for barman.

But, look at the alternative policys of the Labour & Fine Gael Partys?

Nope.
I refuse point-blank to compare FF to anyone else Cork. You either stand or fall on your own merits. "We're better than the other lot" is not a valid reason to elect you.

The facts are people have low personal tax and unemployment is low by international standards.

Actually the facts are that people have high overall tax, most of which is unfairly distributed, and some of which is downright illegal by EU law; and that unemployment is rising.

Our economy is preforming better than most in the EU.

Except that it's not.

Credit where Credit is due. Bertie & Mary are not doing too badly.

Oh, no argument there. For a pair of lying cheating unqualified ****ups, they're doing bloody well.

RainyDay

Ah yes - the great old panacea of 'competition' will fix everything in the electricity market. Funny how it didn't work so well for the consumers in California. See this post for more details.

Cork

Charlie McCreevy transformed the taxation system. He knocked many points of both tax rates. He introduced SSIAs to encourage people to save. He encouraged people to provide for pensions thru PRSAs.

FF/PDs put money back into peoples pockets. Unemployment is one of the lowest in the EU. FACT.

overall tax, most of which is unfairly distributed,

Most of which is going into education, health & social welfare.

Where would you like to see money being distributed?

I personally think Cork could do with an enrtertainment venue like the Obessey Areana in Belfast.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Charlie McCreevy transformed the taxation system. He knocked many points of both tax rates.

And put them all back on again in indirect taxation. The end result of which was to drive the cost of living skywards at a rate of knots. Not to mention the fact that indirect taxation is inherently unfair to people as unlike direct taxation, indirect tax takes no notice whatsoever of financial status and hits the poor far harder than the rich.

He introduced SSIAs to encourage people to save.

And when the 8 billion euro bill arrives along with the billion euro bill for the euro in 2007, you'll be the first to say that it's the fault of whatever non-FF government is in power at the time.

He encouraged people to provide for pensions thru PRSAs.

Really? And the mismanagement of the National Pension Fund?
C'mon cork, credit where it's due - it takes skill to lose 10% of a multi-billion-euro fund, while leaving almost a full quarter sitting about uninvested, not even in a bank account earning interest.

FF/PDs put money back into peoples pockets.

Bollocks they do. Only time FF/PDs put money in people's pockets is when they already have their hand in the pocket to take out the money before it hits your wallet!

Unemployment is one of the lowest in the EU. FACT.

And rising fast. FACT.

Most of which is going into education, health & social welfare.

Most of which is being wasted because the people allocating the cash don't have the ability to manage large projects.

Where would you like to see money being distributed?

To the people doing the work, rather than the civil service administrating the people doing the work. But that'd be anathema to a FF TD, wouldn't it?

I personally think Cork could do with an enrtertainment venue like the Obessey Areana in Belfast.

And I personally think we could use a radiotherapy unit a bit more.
But hey, what would I know, I've only got a brain in my head...

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Only time FF/PDs put money in people's pockets is when they already have their hand in the pocket to take out the money before it hits your wallet!

How you spend money is your business. There is nobody forcing you to drink or smoke. There is no vat on food and clildrens clothes.

We as taxpayers to need better value for money in public services. I agree with you on that.

And I personally think we could use a radiotherapy unit a bit more.

3 are planned - I think. And hopefully more will come.

I know the cost of living has risen aldough inflation is thankfully falling.

This government has invested in infrastructure. I was on the Watergrasshill bypass yesterday. I know there are things to be done but - in an economic downturm - our economy is still proforming steadily.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
How you spend money is your business.

You are ****ting me, right?

There is nobody forcing you to drink or smoke. There is no vat on food and clildrens clothes.

Wow. Life must sure be simple up there on Walton mountain cork. I don't smoke and very rarely drink. But if you think even I can get by without paying VAT, you must be dreaming. Even medical stuff has VAT cork...

We as taxpayers to need better value for money in public services. I agree with you on that.

Cork, that's like saying that we as taxpayers need to breathe oxygen. It's a truism. Meaning that it doesn't get you any bonus points, it's like noticing that gravity acts downwards...

3 are planned - I think. And hopefully more will come.

Plans are wonderful things. Hell, I have plans to be the first Irishman on the moon.
Bricks and mortar - then I'll be impressed. After six years and billions of euro, we shouldn't be seeing people dying on waiting lists or kids in rat-infested schools.

I know the cost of living has risen aldough inflation is thankfully falling.

Inflation is not falling, it's slowing it's climb. And the rise in the cost of living is something a competent government could have alleviated.

This government has invested in infrastructure.

Bollocks they have. Infrastructure was funded by EU grants, not government funds.

in an economic downturm - our economy is still proforming steadily.

Indeed it is - it's steadily getting worse.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

Indeed it is - it's steadily getting worse.

Our economy is getting worse. I was lucky to find a job 5 weeks ago. But economies accross the world are far worse. I know people in the US & OZ that find it hard to get a job in a Burger Joint.

We deserve a world class health system. I just lost a friend thru cancer. But changes need to take place. Michael Martin has to reform the system. Money will not solve it. I think Centres of Excellence is the way to go.

Small local General Hospitals are fine if you break your leg but Anythinhg more serious I'd prefer to go to a hospital were there would be expertise and follow thru care.

The same probably goes for schools. In my area - some schools cannot get pupils. I think that one + two teaher schools could be amalgamated with bigger ones (if possible).

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Our economy is getting worse. I was lucky to find a job 5 weeks ago. But economies accross the world are far worse. I know people in the US & OZ that find it hard to get a job in a Burger Joint.

And when I'm living in the US or Austrailia, I'll worry about their economies. Until then, I'll worry about the Irish one and evaluate it on it's own merits, not relative to a foreign state.

We deserve a world class health system. I just lost a friend thru cancer. But changes need to take place. Michael Martin has to reform the system. Money will not solve it. I think Centres of Excellence is the way to go.

Really? WHY?
Why centers of excellence? What about that phrase (which by the way, is rather meaningless) makes you think it will work? Specifically, cork.

Small local General Hospitals are fine if you break your leg but Anythinhg more serious I'd prefer to go to a hospital were there would be expertise and follow thru care.

We could probably find some people who will never walk again to tell you how bad an idea that is Cork. I know of at least three who had accidents and then suffered post-accident trauma to their spinal cords in transit to a "centre of excellence". I saw similar treatment for my kid brother when he shattered his knee. Ever see a 12-year-old in so much pain they have trouble keeping him sedated while he gets jounced about in the back of an ambulance on the N11 from Locklinstown to Dublin with a shattered and dislocated knee?
That is the reality of your "centers of excellence" idea Cork.

The same probably goes for schools. In my area - some schools cannot get pupils. I think that one + two teaher schools could be amalgamated with bigger ones (if possible).

Yeah, 'cos a forty-mile round trip to school is something everyone can do :rolleyes:

Cork, I get the distinct impression that you've never had to live with the consequences of the policies you're advocating.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks

That is the reality of your "centers of excellence" idea Cork.

B]

No, world class centres with up to date knowledge of conditions and follow up care.

You will not get this in small general hospitals. Ecomically, it is not possible to have top of the range equipment in every hospital. Choices will have to be made.

Michael Martin is a better minister for health than Brian Cowan or Michael Noonan,

Reform is on the agenda. There are timetables for implementation.

I know this should have happened years ago. But it is not beyond this government to make improvements on health.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
No, world class centres with up to date knowledge of conditions and follow up care.

Excellent platitudes cork, but the FF track record points instead to absolutely nothing being done while the situation goes round the U-bend.

You will not get this in small general hospitals. Ecomically, it is not possible to have top of the range equipment in every hospital. Choices will have to be made.

Excellent - so if you're brought into A&E in Donegal with a heart attack, they have to stick you in an ambulance and take you to Cork.
And they can't do it in a helo, because we don't have an air ambulance.

Michael Martin is a better minister for health than Brian Cowan or Michael Noonan,

And Milosovich is a better human being than Stalin or Hitler.

Reform is on the agenda. There are timetables for implementation.

Bull****. "plans", "agenda", "timetable" - all FF words for "don't ask, we'll take credit for it after the next government does the scut work and loses the election for making the hard choices that made the work possible in the first place".

I know this should have happened years ago. But it is not beyond this government to make improvements on health.

Yet their track record says that it is beyond them.