Gammy ratio/overscan/cropping on NTL analogue??

Calibos

Am I the only one who has noticed the gammy ratio/overscan/cropping on NTL analogue for the last week or two?? Digital is fine. Channel logo's and credits etc half off the screen etc???

SPDUB

I noticed that as well but I noticed it only occurs on the BBC,ITV and CH4

Though there seems to be some problem with SKY1 on Stargate SG1 and Dead like Me missing various letters out of their opening credits

Can't comment on the digital situation as it is still not available in my area

celticfc

Yeah, I've noticed it myself orite, it's annoying.

BBC One, UTV & Channel 4 are all stuck in 4:3 pan and scan mode instead of being in 14:9 (half widescreen) mode that is uasually in. I expect it to be fixed soon because this problem seems to happen quite often & rarely lasts too much longer than a week.

As for Sky One, it has always been in 4:3 pan & scan mode on analogue. I dont know if they plan on changing that.

John R

It is because ntl are sourcing BBC1, UTV and Channel 4 from SKY digital, where they were previously terestrial analogue feeds on which the broadcasters use 14:9 for all widescreen programmes. BBC2 is still analogue sourced as the SKY digital version has alot of different programming.

Go Figure!

I too find this extreamly irritating! I bought a widescreen TV a few years ago because most of the programmes I watched were widescreen. Now that they aren't anymore the picture looks all wrong. I don't really except John R's explanation either because the digital channel BBC 2 NI has been up and running for two years now and this problem has only become permanent in the last two weeks. Has anybody tried to get an explanation for it from NTL themselves.

SPDUB

Well when I go to Pg100 on utv and CH4 and press reveal the letters DIV for Divis appear on the right hand side of the "TELETEXT" banner indicating what tx the signal is from so it they don't appear to be from Sky

highdef

We are currently using digital sources for BBC1, UTV and Ch4 for the Dublin analogue network. This is to overcome an intermittent problem with the sound on the analogue feeds. (Because the problem is so intermittent it is proving difficult to identify. We are working with our equipment supplier on this).

The digital feeds originate in 16:9 widescreen. For the analogue network we convert them to 4:3. Effectively, we zoom-in on the widescreen picture so that it fills a 4:3 TV screen. This results in some of the picture, at each side, being lost. This can present a problem where there is text over the full width of the picture.

An option is to convert the widescreen digital picture to letterbox instead of 4:3. The viewer will see all the content but there will be black bars top and bottom.

We will implement this on BBC1 and continue to monitor the reaction.

ntl technical

DMC

Welcome along, ntl Technical, thanks for the info.

highdef

Thanks DMC
What do your initials stand for? It's not the Digital Media Centre in Langley, London, by any chance???

DMC

No, just my name!

highdef

Just thought you were with ntl.
FYI
BBC 1 is now being broadcast in 16:9 letterbox on the Dublin analogue cable network

highdef

FYI

We are currently switching BBC1 back to 4:3 pan & scan as the current program (Murder She Wrote) is being broadcast as a 4:3 letterboxed program with widescreen signalling. The widescreen signalling is being broadcast by the BBC so we are unable to change this. The picture at the moment has black bars both at the top and bottom of the screen, and on the left and right. Basically there is a small window of picture within a large black frame. This is unsuitable for broadcast so I'm afraid we have to change it back to the original pan and scan 4:3 ratio until we get a fix on our analogue sources.

celticfc

Hi ntl Technical, welcome to the forums.

Thanks very much for all the information, it has cleared up a lot. I noticed that BBC One was in 4:3 Letterbox mode earlier on alright (which I much prefer) when Doctors was on, but as you say it does look ridiculous to broadcast when a 4:3 picture is on.

Also, is Sky One ever going to be viewable in 14:9 or is it to stay in 4:3 pan & scan mode on analogue cable?

oneweb

Thanks for the info ntl Technical! Very much appreciated. I had noticed the zoom problem, especially on Winning Lines on BBC1 - numbers on both sides missing. Also I'd posted about the sound glitches - same program where the sound would sound like it slowed for a split second or click.

So if it's not one problem, it seems to be the other?

While I'm at it, can I ask if the pixelation which is most noticable during transitions and fast action scenes is present in the source signal or is it a result of NTL reprocessing the signal for output?

Go Figure!

Hi NTL Technical, Welcome to the Forums!
You are a breath of fresh air in your company and I think the first representative from NTL I have ever come across who actually gives straight answers to questions. Having said that I have two more questions to ask you now. Shouldn't E4 also be broadcast in 4:3 Letterbox format as it is on your digital service and as it was on the analogue service for a few months last year?. It looks ridiculous with half the station logo cut off on widescreen programming. Also as you are anonomous on this forum could you please give us the real reason why Eurosport was dropped from the service last year? Nobody I have spoken to since believes the reason you gave at the time.
Thanks very much!

celticfc

Originally posted by Go Figure!
Shouldn't E4 also be broadcast in 4:3 Letterbox format as it is on your digital service and as it was on the analogue service for a few months last year?. It looks ridiculous with half the station logo cut off on widescreen programming.

As far as I can remember it was changed because there were complaints from some people that the picture looked too small on a 4:3 TV. (Theres an old thread about it somewhere).

I agree though about it looking a bit odd with half a DOG in the corner of the screen, but thats really to do with E4's decicion not to use a "safe area" unlike most others.

highdef

Oneweb. With regards to the audio glitching you heard whilst watching "Winning Lines" - that is exactly the problem we are having with our anlogue UK terrestial sources and consequently why we are presently using the digital feeds. The source of this audio glitch is still unknown as all our equipment has checked out fine. There are still ongoing intensive investigations being carried out regarding this fault.
Some pixelation does occur on the UK channels during action/cut scenes, although it is fairly minor and infrequent. The signal we are using at the moment for the UK channels is digital. We receive it on a fibre optical from the Belfast headend. We then convert it to analogue signal for broadcast. Any pixelation seen is already present when we receive it as converting from digital to analogue cannot introduce any pixelation. Also, as we are broadcasting these channels in 4:3 (except BBC2), any pixelation is visually enhanced as what you see on your TV creen is zoomed in picture, thus you are zooming in on the pixels making any slight picture errors more obvious. Again, this will be resolved when we restore our analogue feeds.
CelticFC: RE: Sky One: Changing the aspect ratio on Sky One is a whole different ball game. To do this, we need to switch to our back-up whilst we change the aspect ratio on the main feed. Then we have to switch back. It can't be done this week, however I will put a request in with our analogue television manager to change the ratio to 4:3 early next week. If there are no widescreen signalling problems if or when we switch it, then we will guage the reaction from customers and hopefully keep it in letterbox mode.

celticfc

Originally posted by ntl Technical
CelticFC: RE: Sky One: Changing the aspect ratio on Sky One is a whole different ball game. To do this, we need to switch to our back-up whilst we change the aspect ratio on the main feed. Then we have to switch back. It can't be done this week, however I will put a request in with our analogue television manager to change the ratio to 4:3 early next week. If there are no widescreen signalling problems if or when we switch it, then we will guage the reaction from customers and hopefully keep it in letterbox mode.

Thanks very much, thats great.

highdef

Go Figure: E4 is in the same boat as Sky One.
Celtic FC: You are right about E4. We did originally broadcast E4 in letterbox on the analogue but complaints from customers prompted us to switch it to pan and scan. A lot of people do not like the black bars at the top and bottom of the screen. The majority of our analogue customers have standard 4:3 sets whilst a higher proportion of our digital customers have 16:9 sets. Also, with the digital service you can decide whether you want pan and scan, letterbox or anamorphic widecreen so everybody is happy.
Eurosport was dropped mainly because they were trying to charge us extortionate amounts of money to broadcast there service for what is actually a regular channel. I don't know what the exact figure was but rest assured, it was a lot. Hope this answers all your questions. I will be heading off shortly and won't be back till Monday so if I don't get back to your questions this evening, it will be Monday afteroon before I get back to you all.

Go Figure!

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! NTL Technical

Gwynston

Hi ntl Tech - it's great to have someone in the know from NTL down here at ground level!

Hope you're not snowed under with queries.....
I'm on MMDS Digital in Galway and am I right in saying that selecting 16x9 instead of 4x3 on my decoder will not make any difference? I notice that E4 always comes through on widescreen with a signal, but I can't seem to get it on the regular channels. Is there only one feed per channel on MMDS?

While I'm happier with the picture quality of the Digital MMDS, I'm a bit fed up with 4x3 broadcasts on my widescreen TV

SPDUB

I may be in the minority here but I find the 4:3 pan and scan much more annoying than I ever found that sound problem

celticfc

Originally posted by SPDUB
I may be in the minority here but I find the 4:3 pan and scan much more annoying than I ever found that sound problem

Well now that you mention it, I never actually remember noticing that sound problem.

oneweb

ntl tech, your presence here is absolutely wonderful. It's great to know that there are still people out there who know exactly not only what they themselves are doing, but going beyond that to understand what their company is doing too!

Thank you so much for sorting out a lot of queries

Buy that person a pint!

Go Figure!

I have to agree with SPDUB. I too find the 4:3 pan and scan format far more annoying then I ever found the sound problem. I hope NTL Technical is telling the truth when he says that intensive investigations are going on to resolve the fault. The sooner it is corrected the better. People who do not have
Widescreen TV's need to move with the times sometime! Why should those of us who have updated our televisions some time ago have to always wait for others to catch up?

oneweb

Originally posted by Go Figure!
Why should those of us who have updated our televisions some time ago have to always wait for others to catch up?

You have your aspect ratio button so you can choose the format you watch. I'd imagine most of those who have snazzy new televisions can also afford digital. The rest (I'd imagine the majority) of us find no need nor want to spend a small fortune on something that they neither need nor want.

Go Figure!

oneweb I have to tell if you aren't already you will increasingly become the monority over the next couple of years and I am getting digital television for Christmas!

oneweb

Good for you

I can wait a few years to upgrade. There's no compelling reason for me to do so yet given the advantage/cost ratio.

highdef

Even if we were to play out all channels in letterbox mode on the analogue platform (where available of course), this is still not true widescreen. When you view this letterboxed picture, your widescreen TV will either automatically zoom in so the picture fills the screen and everything appears in it's correct proportions or else your TV will do this itself.
However, when you zoom in on this picture, you are loosing a lot of resolution on your TV picture as you are effectively zooming in on the individual pixels. This is in much the same way as the way we are currently zooming in on the widescreen picture to create a 4:3 pan and scan image. However, as the equipment we use is professional, it is designed to display 4:3 pan and scan from a widescreen source with minimal degradation in quality. I have watched TV programmes on E4 on digital back in the days when it was transmitted in letterbox mode (this was the only option as we had problems with widescreen switching on one of our models of set top box, from Channel 4 when we first introduced E4 and also with Film Four) and I noticed that the picture was really not great at all. I was viewing on a Sony 28" WEGA which is an OK TV.
The widesceen option on digital is completely different to what some people want transmitted on the analogue platform. On digital, if you select widescenn and the program is being transmitted in widescreen, you will get a true anamorphic widescreen picture. Basically, the picture comes in stretched vertically together with a widesceen switching signal for your widescreen TV. When your TV sees this signal, it switches from whatever mode it is in to widescreen mode. This then squashes the picture down to correct proportion and size for a widescreen TV and, Hey Presto, you have a perfect widescreen picture in full 625 line (or thereabouts) resolution.

watty

No it isn't

The picture only *LOOKS* stretched vertically on a 4:3 display. It is actually squashed horisontally. For correct display the pixels are strecthed horizontally. Only 4:3 tubed sets with Animorphic support, then reduce the scan height as if a 16:9 tube was fitted. They then have an identical image to a same width WS TV.


It is just that Digital set-top boxes allow either "letterboxing" (throws away vertical resolution) or Crop (it is NOT true Pan & Scan), which throws away the edges of the picture. Resolution is really the same.


Animorphic WS works perfectly well on Analog and their is even a standard for what goes in Line23 to tell a WS TV what to do.

Some 4:3 TVs can reduce height to give a perfectly proportioned Animorphic WS image *WITHOUT* any of the loss of vertical resolution that "set top" box "letterboxing" does. For these TVs the Cable, MMDS, DTT, Satellite or DVD player should be set to 16:9 TV. In this mode 4:3 material is unaffected.

With an animorphic source you are really in a problem if the viewer can't handle it.
Simple Crop loses too much picture
Simple Letterbox loses too much resolution. Some people find the height of the black bars too much.

So the BBC and most others use truely professional gear to create a intermediate letterbox (14:9 often ort even less) with slightly chopped sides and smaller black bars for analog transmission.

Gwynston

Hello again NTL Technical,
Is what you say about digital true for MMDS Digital in Galway though? I notice that on E4 my TV catches the widescreen switching signal OK, but I don't seem to get this on other channels. What others should I be able to get anamorphic widescreen on? The decoder's "16x9" setting doesn't seem to affect any other channels which all come through 4x3, so I have to zoom in on the TV (losing resolution)

Go Figure!

I'm with Lurking Icon on this. NTL Technical why can't we have the channels exactly as they are broadcast to viewers in the UK. I'm sick of NTL arrogantly changing the way the channels are broadcast because they think its what the viewers want here. You are wrong if you think that what you are currently giving us is what we want? Just as RTE are wrong in not introducing widescreen programming as well. Also are we ever going to get any of the BBC's digital channels and ITV 2 on your digital service?

highdef

Welcome to the board LurkingIcon
ntl set top boxes (STBs) do allow full anamorphic widescreen where available. True, they do provide letterbox and "crop" - pan and scan (the official term is actually truncate).
Our newest STB, the silver coloured Di300 has a letterbox option with a difference. It transmits in 14:9 letterbox instead of 16:9 letterbox. This does what the majority of customers with 4:3 sets want:

They don't want huge black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.
At the same time, they don't want to miss the edges of the screen on the left and right hand sides.

So these STBs transmit as UK terrestial channels transmit in analogue as most things on these channels are currently framed for 14:9. If everyone with digital went and bought widescreen TV's (we are slowly moving in that direction anyway), life would be so much easier for me - As long as the customers have their TV's and STBs set up correctly of course!!!

Oh, and one more thing: We do receive widescreen channels in full anamorphic, stretched VERTICALLY and not horizontaly.
Resolution in truncate (pan & scan) mode is actually lessened by a fair degree in the same way that you may zoom in on a letterboxed image. The widescreen image is not HDTV in that it's still just a 625 line image. Any manipulation of this picture in the ways above is going to reduce the resolution by some degree.

highdef

Go Figure.
With regard to the BBC Channels and ITV2, I can't comment on when we will begin broadcasting these channels as it is "company sensitive" information. I don't even know of any set dates. However, these channels are on the agenda at the mo. Sorry about the lack of information regarding this topic.

Again Go Figure, the reason the UK channels are currently being transmitted in 4:3 truncate, crop, pan & scan - call it what you like, is because we are having the problem with audio glitching on these channels on our main analogue feed from the North. We are using our digital back-up feed at the moment. This only has options of 16:9 anamorphic, 16:9 letterbox or 4:3 truncate. There is no option for 14:9. If there was, we would have selected this option. 16:9 anamorphic is obviously out of the question. We tried 16:9 letterbox last week and it was ok when there was a 16:9 transmission but a 4:3 transmission really screwed the picture up big time! (see my earlier post near the top of this thread for more info).
A fairly large amount of people really hate any black bars whatsoever when watching TV. Even when the UK channels are being broadcast in their regular 14:9 aspect ratio, we still get some complaints about the small black bars at the top and bottom of the screen.
Simply put, it's impossible to keep everyone happy all of the time when broadcasting on the analogue platform. There is no option to change the shape of the picture like there is with digital.
If I had my way, I would have all the analogue channels playing out in anamorphic widescreen so they would all look great at home where all the TV's are either widescreen or else are 4:3 with 16:9 letterbox option. So I'm not terrribly happy either. It doesn't bother me that much though. I rather watch digital as the picture quality is SO much better, IMO.
Any of the comments I make are my own personal views. I am not being biased toward ntl nor am I being at all prejudiced to the people on this board - Just wanted to get that straight. Certain things I cannot answer but I do my best when I can to do so.
Gwynston, I'll have to get back to you at a later time regarding widescreen in MMDS areas of Galway as I'm quite busy now. TTYL

highdef

Gwynston
Just made a quick query with our main Galway headend technician. The four UK channels are recieved by Chorus and then digitized. This means that your TV will not switch to widescreen as it as been set to the default (I presume its regualr 4:3?) in the Galway headend or possibly by Chorus themselves. The likes of E4 and Sky One are received off satellite hence the fact you can change aspect ratio on these channels. I'll make queries as to whether there are any plans in the near future to change to a digital source for the UK channels. I have a load of other things to do as well so it's unlikely that I'll get any sort of answer very quickly.

Go Figure!

Thank's for answering my queries NTL Technical. My comments were directed at your company and not you personally so please don't take any personal offence from them. As I have said to you before I would rate you above anyone else in your company as you at least are straight and honest with people about the facts. I also know that you can't please all of the people all of the time but I hope as a company that you try and please the majority of people one of whom I beleive is me.

Gwynston

Thanks NTL Technical, I'll look out for your future info.
Shame about the Chorus source for Digital MMDS in Galway though
I wonder about the other channels - do digital cable customers get multiple feeds for some channels so they can watch either 4x3 or 16x9 as set by the decoder box?

I have a widescreen TV, so it would be nice to get 16x9 broadcasts (preferably anamorphic) wherever possible.

Does anyone know exactly which digital channels do broadcast widescreen, for example via satellite? Also, what about the FTV BBC1/2 signals when a movie is on?

sirlinux

Is there any chance of of getting Nicam on E4 on Dublin Analog anytime soon??

Calibos

That reminds me sirlinux. When I switch to utv on my tv the onscreen display says mono?? Is that to do with the audio glitching problems NTL tech is talking about?

highdef

Gwynston
I have a line-up document for Galway MMDS digital in front of me. All channels except the 4 UK terrestials and of course the Irish channels are received off-air. The rest are received off satellite. So any channel being broadcast in widescreen should show as widescreen on your television.

sirlinux: The E4 NICAM problem is a long outstanding problem with no fix, at the moment anyway. Basically, a company called robobar (or something like that) began installing an automatic billing system in hotels around Dublin some years ago. This utilised the cable system already present in hotels. Basically if someone booked a dirty film in their room, took a bottle of wine from their mini-bar, etc, this would register on the billing system - all done automatically. This all worked well until we began broadcasting in NICAM on this frequency (I can't remember what channel was being broadcast at the time but it's the same frequency E4 is on now). Suddenly, the Robobar system stopped billing people and hotel guests could drink their mini-bar dry and not be charged a penny (It was pounds and pence back then!). After extensive investigations and fault finding, it was discovered that the NICAM subcarrier on this frequency was exactly the same as the frequency used by the Robobar company. Basically, our NICAM transmission was knocking the other system. We then had to switch back to mono which is still the set-up to this day. We can't move E4 to another frequency as there are none available.

Calibos: I have checked UTV on our analogue cable system here and it is playing out in NICAM. The only thing I can suggest is that your levels may be a little bit low or that you may have UTV set up to play in Mono on your TV set for some reason. I would really have to see (hear) it for myself but without being there myself, they are the only things I can think off plus the fact that I am coming down with a bad cold so my brain doesn't seem to be in the humour for thinking of any sort.

sirlinux

Thanks for the quick reply, you think they would just filter that frequency on the hotel cable system rather than cutting off nicam for all of dublin!! That UTV thing happened to me about 2/3 weeks back, just had to press the button on my telly to switch it back to nicam on UTV (probably about the time you switched to satellite)

highdef

If things were that simple, we would have filtered the frequency in hotels. However, it obviously proved more cost effective to simply broadcast in mono. At the time, this didn't cause a problem because the channel being broadcast was in mono anyway - I think it was Eurosport or something like that. It's really only since we started broadcasting E4 on this frequency that it has become more noticeable. As we increase more frequencies for the digital channels by removing more analogue channels (I think the 2 remaining sports channels are next on the hit list), maybe we can move E4 somewhere else although I wouldn't hold my breath.

sirlinux

Pity about that!! you have a licence for those frequencies, they dont, id tend to just let them suffer!! Some free minibar would be nice.

SPDUB

Ntl technical do you know why it was decided that the pan/scan versions of UTV etc were more acceptable than the audio glitch

I only noticed that glitch about 2 or 3 times and wondered what was causing it but that pan/scan I find annoying every day especially on news programmes

I actually prefer the audio glitch

highdef

The audio glitch occurs about a couple of times an hour - there is no pattern to when it happens. Sometimes you can barely notice it and at other times you'd want to be deaf not to hear it. In general, it didn't bother me too much as I don't watch a huge amount of tv in analogue at home: I usually stick to the digital. The main problem is that the glitch appears to affect people who own Philips TV sets (more modern one anyway, don't know about older models). When the glitch occurs, it causes come sort of auto volume control to cut in. The volume of the program drops right down before slowly rising back to previous setting. The majority of complaints were received from owners of Philips sets. I have experienced this at home too - on a Philips 14" set - one of those sets with the built-in DVD player, and it is very distracting when it occurs. Given the amount of Philips sets in Dublin and due to it's good name and good prices (I'm not trying to do any PR here, btw), it was decided that the alternative currently playing out is better. I do agree that it looks terrible. I can see that breakfast show on channel 4 on the analogue at the moment and about a third of the clock is missing!

highdef

I received an email this morning regarding the audio glitching. We are due to have an engineer from the audio equipment supplier down from Belfast for all of next week working on this audio glitch. CAn't tell you anymore regarding this at this stage, I'm afraid

celticfc

Originally posted by ntl Technical
I received an email this morning regarding the audio glitching. We are due to have an engineer from the audio equipment supplier down from Belfast for all of next week working on this audio glitch.

Good news, Thanks again ntl Technical.

oneweb

Just fyi ntl Tech, the audio problem occurs here on a Sharp (older model) as well as Grundig (some link w/ Philips afaik), and Hauppauge TV card (which apparently has a Philips tuner chip)

highdef

Oneweb. Sorry about that last post. The audio glitch does affect all TV sets. I just didn't make that very clear at all. With Philips (and probably Grundig and other Philips type sets) sets, the audio dips right down before slowly returning to normal whenever the glitch occurs. This is to do with some sort of auto volume levelling system in place in Philips sets which appears is defaulted to be switched on. People who have auto levelling volume set on other brands of tv probably experience the same lowering in general volume but we don't have any eveidence of this. I would presume this is the case though. Anyway, we'll see how things go when we get the engineer down from Belfast. It'll be like looking for a needle in a haystack so I'd like to say good luck to him.

Go Figure!

Well I hope he is able to resolve the situation! There must be something he can do as this problem has only occured in the last couple of months. Keep us posted as to how he gets on!

Moriarty

Just to let you all know, i have the same problem with chorus digital over mmds in limerick.