Creative Writing Forum and Freedom of expression

MarcusGarvey

I just had two stories I wrote edited by Beat.

Apparently because I used bad language it gave her the right to edit those words out but she took it a step further and edited out a paragraph because I used the phrase "hung like a donkey" in it.

Since when the hell does that give the mod the right to destroy a piece of work I created and put a lot of work into ?

Censor "sinful" words fine but edit out other things for the sake of being Politically Correct.

I really thought a creative writing forum would respect someones freedom of expression. I live in the real world where people use bad language. I don't write Anne and Barry books.

Nowhere in the charter of that forum does it say bad language is inappropriate or that phrases like "hung like a donkey" :rolleyes: will have a chunk of your work edited.

I also got threatened with a banning because I quoted someone else who called me or my character a f.ucking ****. I would have thought that in order to quote someone and reply to them a full quote would have been the proper thing to do in order to keep context.

I had planned on putting up a lot more of my work but I'll just use another website that respects creativity besides putting hurdles in place.

I know this isn't a democratic community but a benevolent dictatorship but still I thought there'd be some freedom and political correctness would not be followed so much.

Praetorian

Power trip, POWER TRIP!

dod

I read your original posts prior to their being heavily edited MG, and I think your grievance is well founded. The use of ( lets call it) colourful language was entirely reasonable in the context of the story you were telling. It was not excessive or offensive. It was reasonable in the context of the characters and the storyline.

In principle I agree that some of the hormonally charged posters need to understand that they cannot post a tirade of abuse, or use boards for an outburst of foulmouthed nonsense, but, particularly in the context of a creative writing board, and when it is reasonably used and in character with the writing, it must be permitted.

The edited version of your posts is far weaker than the preedited post which was humorous and entertaining. I think that in the context of this sort of writing, there has to be some degree of discretion in the application of these rules.

Zealous editing of posts in Creative Writing, as exemplified by this instance,is not going to go down to well with the contributors.

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
I had planned on putting up a lot more of my work but I'll just use another website that respects creativity besides putting hurdles in place.

Ah don't do that, just realise that, you have had a difference of opinion and discuss it with the mod in question.
Perhaps a discussion on the rules of that board would be a good idea.
And some structure put in place to decide what is and isn't appropriate prior to posting.
That way you or others won't be offended.
It didn't help in this situation that your thread got attacked by muppets, you should have reported their posts immediately to an admin or the mod and let them deal with them.
The muppet posts had no value in terms of critisism at all and were just bad spam.
You should ignore stuff like that if you see it in future and just report it.

mm

ecksor

Agreed, if this is the thread I'm thinking of then such posts will be dealt with if they are brought to our attention (both of those users earned a ban).

As for how the board is moderated, I think that you should discuss your grievance with the Moderator in question, and, if necessary, then have it out in the open here so we can hopefully come to an understanding that makes most people happy and gets everyone on the same page about the spirit of the forum.

Sposs

It should Probably be made clear in the sticky that your story can be subjected to editing by the moderator's if deemed inappropriate.

Roller Toaster

I fully support Marcus on this, there was no need to edit the story itself. The muppet posts should definitly have been deleted/edited but to wreck a story like that just for using a naughty word just isn't on.

DapperGent

I'd have to agree, screwing around with someone else's writing because of profanity is the kind of thing that will kill the creative writing board before it starts.

And that would be a damn shame.

Sposs

Where would Roddy Doyle be with Profanity in his books?

Puck

I'm supporing MarcusGarvey on this. BEAT was well out of order editing his posts the way she did. There were some other posts in that thread by two muppets (since banned from Boards I think) that were abusive and that I reported. Those posts were rightly edited.

The language MarcusGarvey used though was rude but enirely justified. He wasn't attacking other users or anything. The posts were great amusing little pieces of writing and they should not have been edited.

I won't be posting in Creative Writing untill this matter is fixed. I believe at the very least Marcus is owed a sincere apollogy from BEAT.

spongebob

Paddy20 would never have done that !

Gordon

Marcus I think you should have PM'd BEAT tbh. However, I did find your read highly enjoyable and the language was acceptable given the context. But that's just my personal opinion.

MarcusGarvey

Gordo: Beat talked down to me as if I was 7 in one of the threads in that forum. She too had the option of messaging me privately but chose not to. God I sound petty, probably because I am.

I took my argument back into the Creative Writing forum anyway.

MarcusGarvey

Well I got my answer:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1124233#post1124233

BEAT

As for the posts by Marcus,
I edited out the parts that i received emails about from those that were offended.
I am not on a power trip, I have never had to edit someone before, in either of my forum's.
I had no personal problem with marcus writing, but others did, atleast 5.
As the Mod I believe it is my job to keep the peace. If that means editing , then I believe that is why I am able to edit...is it not?

I edited, and he retaliated on the thread.

I posted before he got out of hand that I would like to see more of his work if he would edit it first, so I do believe someone took things out of order all on their own. :rolleyes:

Oh, and I did adjust the welcome sticky to prevent this from happening again.
Marcus is welcome to post but should realise that not everyone will enjoy his work as much as he does This goes for everyone really, it's just common sense...I used to get get edited in my posts all the time, then I just started editing them myself.

MarcusGarvey

Sorry to keep this going... BUT

BEAT , you did more than edit one of my stories, you deleted some of it too. You weakened and diluted my works. Thats plain Vandalism.

Moderating is not just about editing. Just because you have the power of editing ...

If there were complaints about the stories you could have come to me and dicussed the matter in a PM asking me how I wanted to remedy the situation. I could have then said I did not want my work edited and could have had the opportunity to remove it. Thats moderating.

Creative works can be an emotive issue and people can get quite touchy if you alter or interfere with them because in some cases a lot of personal experiences could have gone into them.

I would have tried to continue this thread in Creative Writing but once again you locked a thread after giving your "Your Mod has spoken, take it or leave" speech so I could not reply back.

I find it laughable that the Creative Writing Forum could be so restrictive that most other forums now on boards offer more chance and reward for being creative.

Marcus.

MarcusGarvey

Originally posted by BEAT
.I used to get get edited in my posts all the time, then I just started editing them myself.

I see you edit your posts too after others have replied to them.

Nevyn

it may be better to ask people to edit thier work themsleves in accordnace to what is needed rather then edit it .

BEAT

Ok Marcus,
I am not going to argue with you. You are apparently not getting the point at all.
I am not going to beg you to post there, I told you before I locked the thread (and you retaliated in a most immature way when i left it open) that I would like to see more of your work, and asked you kindly to just edit it first.
The fact of the matter is we are not here to offend people.

Though it may not offend you or myself, it does not mean it wont offend others, its common sense really.


Yes, I will lock threads if they go off topic. The creative writing was clearly over...if you had an issue you could have pm'd me.

BEAT

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
I see you edit your posts too after others have replied to them.

Yes, I do...I reread things and find errors, so I correct them, a tip perhaps you should take.
This is becoming a bit childish, dont you think?

Really.
:rolleyes:

Puck

I'd like to raise a complaint about the content of the Creative Writing forum. At the top of said forum there is an announcement called "you wait for a pissup...". I request that such offensive material be edited out straight away. This "DeVore" character could easilly have used "p***up" or even "pee-pee-up" but chose not to and now I feel faint with shock to be quite honest. Imagine my horror to discover that this announcement is on most (if not all) boards on Boards.ie!
*cough* *cough*
I'm not serious of course but hopefully you get the point. Boards is not for the faint-hearted. Most bad language is accepted. There's always going to be a few people that take offence though. But so what?! Just because someone is offended by something and the rest of us are fine with it doesn't mean it should be removed.

As far as I see it, it's fine to use "colourful lanuage" (God I hate that term! (Oh look that's blasphemy or something isn't it!?)) as long as your civil towards others.

You can't go through life, or even boards, without offending someone, and there are some people who just love to take offence to things.

The language used by MarcusGarvey, while not being the language I'd use around someone's granny, was fine in the context of his writing. In fact I thought it was better for the "colourful language"... and now it's ruined.

BEAT

Puck,

I wonder...you say it's ok to use 'colorful' language, and that boards isnt for the faint at heart...and yet when those muppets infiltrated on the thread you reported it, hmm. ya ya, I know, there is a difference.
But if I say it is okay for the continuance of the profanity usage in the forum it is only going to lead to more muppets posting such things, and then I cant say anything because it would have been made clear that "you have the freedom of expression here so it's okay for you to say this work is fuking ****e, or such references'.
And then next time someone did say something like that and declared it a right as thier freedom of expression, you couldnt come along and say , well that post doesnt belong there, its offensive or vulgur.
Do you see now why such things arnt aloud?
You give them an inch and they take a mile, that's why.

Instead of everyone still "complaining" why doesnt someone give a constructive idea as to how we can give a little more room for expression since people seem to think I am not doing things right

:rolleyes:

Things were fine until this came along ***. I didnt think asking someone to edit thier usage in profanity could really get this many people's panties in a twist, geesh

Puck

There is a difference between abusing another member and using bad language. I was reporting abuse not bad language.

You could always just do the normal thing, the thing that most other mods do - recognise the difference in abusive posts and "colourful language". Users should be civil, criticism should be constructive. It's called common sense, please don't be afraid to use a little.

I believe one of the posts I reported was "You ****ing ****" by Andre (now banned for more of the same). If you can't see the difference in that and MarcusGarvey's posts then I give up.

At the moment your charter says

Here is the deal: Do not post anything that may offend others, that means x-rated, erotica, or use of profanity when it can be avoided.

It's near impossible not to post anything that may offend others. Surely you see how rediculous this is?

I don't think I could post in such a restrictive forum, so I won't anymore. I'd love to but I can't, for fear of one day writing something that "may offend others". It's a great shame if you ask me. The board and so much of it's potential creativity has been ruined.:(

Gordon

BEAT - as Boards grows (it's growing pretty fast) it will get more difficult to mod all fora in general. And to many creative people their creations are very personal to them as, well, a creation is something that has never been seen before by the world. So - it's going to get worse

As Puck says; the only way to tell if something has been put up for the bad of the community is by using your own judgement. Just like in PI there are some threads obviously pisstakes started by a troll but can end up allowing users to post good advice and give good links to our stickied charter/links thread.

The Creative Writing forum must be very difficult to mod because you are in the fine line between rules and freedom, there aren't many like this forum (maybe Art/Animation would be another) so it is difficult to get a yard stick (to beat people around the head with). Therefore it is tricky to get the charter correct to show that you allow freedom but as long as it does not offend. And, it would require the mod to read through the whole of every first post in a thread.

BEAT, have you spoken to Ropedrink about it?

BuffyBot

Beat

Just as an observation (I don't use this particular forum) it might be an idea to contact the author before hand unless it's so bad it cannot be left showing online. As someone else said, you are dealing with someone else's creative output - unlike most other forums on boards, and therefore you need to be sensitive about their feelings about changes, and their original intention behind it.

It seems a little unfair to storm in and edit someone else literary output without talking to them first. It's a quite a specialised forum, so perhaps you need to moderate it differently than others on boards.

dahamsta

I've been watching this for a little while and I just want to back BuffyBot's suggestion. This isn't a regular forum where you can just edit posts willy-nilly, as a moderator you are also an editor and that brings responsibility. Editors in the real word, for the most part, have a responsibility to their readers /and/ their writers, there's a balance involved. In the case of this forum, I think that writers should be consulted first about "questionable" submissions. This can be done in two ways:

a) If a post is condidered questionable, copy the entire post into a backup file and replace the lot with a placeholder until the writer has been consulted.

b) Make the forum premoderated.

I'd favour the former as the latter seems cumbersome and over-the-top. The former is also cumbersome to a degree, but less so -- how often is this going to happen? Both negate any questions of damaging the work, which I think is important in a creative forum.

adam

DapperGent

Here is the deal: Do not post anything that may offend others, that means x-rated, erotica, or use of profanity when it can be avoided.

Creative writing that is designed to offend nobody is creative writing I don't want to read.

I think the proper thing to do would be if you come across a piece of writing you believe may be offense simply edit the title of the thread to reflect that.

If people are moaning because they find the word "****" offensive tell them to **** off and read a different forum. Sanitised creativity is no creativity at all.

Praetorian

Beat,

I think you owe Marcusgarvey an apology. His work wasn't offensive in any way. It was humorous and intelligently written. I believe you meant well but your editing was over zealous. You should follow the general consensus of the community. I would be very interested to hear Ropedrink’s opinion on this.

If creative writing was posted to the English forum, it would be treated with respect. As things stand, I don’t think I would risk moving it to ‘Creative Writing’.

Nevyn

Originally posted by BEAT
I didnt think asking someone to edit thier usage in profanity could really get this many people's panties in a twist, geesh

Beat you didnt ask,
You went in and edited, censored, cut and in it seems in a few peoples opinions ruined the work.

That shows no respect what was created or the person that created it.
There is a huge difference between modding/editing deleting sections of a post in PI or humanites and what is submitted to Creative writing.

echomadman

Would it be possible to get a disclaimer to pop up, or a click through page that indicates that by entering the creative writing board you accept the fact that profanity may occur *within* individual pieces,
Obviously flaming muppets and foul mouthed trolls should be deleted out of hand.
Editing someones work witout permission isn't the way to go, in fact I'm against editing on "moral" grounds full stop,
If people don't want to read naughty word then thay can fsck off back to their imaginary sanitised version of reality.

bonkey

Originally posted by Praetorian
Beat,

I think you owe Marcusgarvey an apology. His work wasn't offensive in any way. It was humorous and intelligently written.

I thought BEAT had made it clear that the post was edited subsequent to complaints about its content.

While I tend to agree with the "placeholder and send back to author for editing" approach, I think its unfair to complain that the mod read things wrong when it was the readers who were complaining.

jc

Hobart

Originally posted by bonkey
I thought BEAT had made it clear that the post was edited subsequent to complaints about its content.

While I tend to agree with the "placeholder and send back to author for editing" approach, I think its unfair to complain that the mod read things wrong when it was the readers who were complaining.

jc

The "off" button is the ultimate censor. If people don't like it. Surf elsewhere. I read the piece, in it's original condition, and I thought it was fine. In fairness I would here a lot more profanity in a sweet shop than I read in that piece. What exactly 5 or 6 people had to put in the e-mail is beyond me!

However in my opinion Marcus is not due an apology. Having said that, Beat acted in a totally incorrect manner and should acknowledge that. It is creative writing afterall and most people could take offence to anything.

Praetorian

People were annoyed with the comments after Marcusgarvey's post. I reported the 'your gay' comment.

ozt9vdujny3srf

Surely these 5 or 6 people who pmed BEAT should be jumping to support his decision. I am interested to see who is really that easily offended.

It would appear to me that this has been very badly handled, i feel deleting part of someones work without at least backing it up is somewhat careless and inconsiderate.

BEAT can you not at least admit that you should not have deleted some of Marcus's work, or are you intent on sitting on your "i believe i did the right thing" high horse.

Roller Toaster

BEAT, I think it's been made clear that any reports that were made about the thread were referring to the muppet posts by the two banned users. The fact that you edited the posts because you thought some people were taking offence is a moot point considering that there were apparently 5 reports (which you took to be about the story itself) while there are some 15 complaints on this thread alone about what you did. By your logic everybody who expresses an opinion different to the norm or slightly controversial deserves to be banned as they may offend people and by inverting your own logic you should be banned for annoying so many people with your actions although I don't want to see that happen.
It would have been totally different had this been on a private forum where everything goes by what the mods allow but that forum is in my opinion the community's, not your's and therefore the rules should be set by the people who post in it and read it, not some over zealous mod. The whole point of the forum should be to challenge and engage people which won't happen if people are forced to post content that wouldn't be out of place in a primary school textbook. I think in future you should most definitly look before you leap and I hope that you resolve this situation by apologising to Marcus and restoring the original content.

Imposter

Would something like what is used when 'inappropriate for work' type pics are posted not work.

Something like:
MY TITLE [Do not open if easily offended]

Then any abuse or responses that are out of order are moderated as the mod sees fit but the works themselves are left untouched. Exceptions might be needed if the piece is just pure racism or something else that almost everyone would find inappropriate.

Now this has turned out to be a very worthwhile discussion, in an independent venue.

I read the original post by Marcus and to be honest thought it was a good read (I also thought I was in PI too for a second )
I'm wondering what sort of people have a problem with phrases like "hung like a donkey" really, in the light of mainstream stuff from roddy doyle as was mentioned already.

Beat, this has been a learning curve for you, I take it??
As it has for everyone else here.
Now would be timely for all to go back to the regular contributers and agree a system , theres plenty of food for thought in this thread.

mm

BEAT

Ok,
I have read everyone's input. I am going to input a new charter with some basic rules that should make everyone happy.
Marcus is more than welcome to post there as I stated before any of this mess happened.
I do not feel I owe an apology as I was adhereing to the request of others to edit certain words and it is the job of a mod to do such things. (this too will be revised in the new rules)
I understand that this forum is different than others.
I do feel now after seeing so many opinions that perhaps editing the last paragraph out of the story would make any writer upset and perhaps I should have pm'd him about that. That is about all I would take back if I could.

I have said all I will say about this subject, it has gone on for long enough.
*Give me until tomorow..the 25th to get the new rules posted if not tonight, I do have other things to do in my life as well *

DapperGent

What's gone up in the new charter is great Beat.

Nice one.:)

MarcusGarvey

I was informed by PM from BEAT last night that she deleted the Dear Susan thread and I could post it again. I explained (and this was one of my complaints) that I did not have an original copy of the work and so what she tore out of the piece is lost forever.

I give up.

Praetorian

It appears that the 'Dear Susan' thread has been deleted by Beat. Removing part of his work due to inexperience could possibly be forgiven. Deleting the whole thread is just plain ridiculous.

Marcusgarvey has PM’d me regarding posting Creative Writing on the English board. That’s fine by me.

DapperGent

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
I was informed by PM from BEAT last night that she deleted the Dear Susan thread and I could post it again.

I give up.

I wonder why she did that? It was locked anyways. Don't give up the forum is a great idea and with the new rules it should work fine.

Originally posted by Praetorian
Marcusgarvey has PM’d me regarding posting Creative Writing on the English board. That’s fine by me.

Don't you think that your efforts would be better spent making the CW board work as you would like rather than bypassing it entirely?

MarcusGarvey

Yeah, rethinking that request I made to Prae. Posting stuff in English when theres a Creative Writing forum would defeat the purpose, so I won't post in English.

Puck

Originally posted by MarcusGarvey
I was informed by PM from BEAT last night that she deleted the Dear Susan thread and I could post it again. I explained (and this was one of my complaints) that I did not have an original copy of the work and so what she tore out of the piece is lost forever.

I give up.

Why on earth would you do a thing like that BEAT?! Things were just starting to look up. It looks like a case of one step forward two steps back though.

With all the fuss over editing out parts of the post what made you think deleting the whole post would be good?

I don't know what the setup on Boards is regarding backups but maybe an admin might be able to restore the thread. Is this possible?

MarcusGarvey

Nah Puck its fine. Someone made a copy of the thread yesterday so I have that, just not what I originally posted.

BEAT wasn't malicious and genuinely assumed I had a backup.

This whole thing has sapped enough of my time and energy now though so I'm gonna leave it at that.

Puck

Well it's your post so if you're fine about it then it's not my place to argue I guess. I'm just straining to see the logic here. Ah well nevermind.

DeVore

Ok, I didnt read any of the posts in question but I think I can piece things together.

MG posted something close to the edge. Nothing wrong with that, as someone put it Creative Writing is likely to feck someone off... we should apply the 80/20 rule here. 80% of people happy, 20% annoyed.

Beat reacted with some inexperience, modding isnt as easy as many of our mods make it look... I should have seen that CW might raise such issues but I also overlooked that some would push the edges. Creative Writing isnt like someone bashing out a post. Its more personal then that so editing is taken more personally.

The charter should come from the community, not be impose on it. Perhaps a thread that discusses the rules that the community wants enforced by the mods might be good.
For myself I wouldnt want anything posted that a 14+ year old shouldnt read.

Marcus, I'm sorry that your writing got deleted. I'm glad you got it back... but taking off in a huff doesnt help either. Beat may not have made great decisions but hey, I dont make great decisions all the time and I'm 3 years doing this

If everyone on this thread stopped taking a blame attitude (and I mean, almost EVERYONE) I think we could smooth out the kinks between the expectations of the community and the modus operandi of the moderators and move onwards with a decent intriguing forum.

Anyone up for that?

DeV.

BEAT

Yes Devore,
all sounds good to me.
Infact, the last line of my new rules charter offers anyone to post suggestions to rules for the forum.
I think it's all settled now really.