High Speed Rail

Qadhafi

The motorways, high cost, built mainly for the private car to get rid of traffic jams seemed destined to generate more traffic and cause more traffic jams.

Ireland does need motorway for the Intercity routes however the government seems to be completely ignore rail.

Why doesnt the government start building a high speed rail network between the main cities?(i know the first answer is cost).It cant cost as much money as the expensive motorway. The journey is a lot more comfortable than any road. The land is already owned. Its just a matter of laying the track (Continous Steel Rail), which i think they are already laying.Signalling upgrading and upgrading crossings and new rolling stock.

has the government ever looked at HSR? whats everyones thoughts on the matter

BuffyBot

Isn't the new roling stock on order for the Cork and Limerick routes supposed to be high speed? (well relatively)

Qadhafi

Isn't the new roling stock on order for the Cork and Limerick routes supposed to be high speed? (well relatively)

Can you tell me more about this? I think all the trains in Ireland travel at 45-50mph ? 125mph can be classed at high speed.

I tried getting my hands on that Rail review document but I couldnt. Whats the plans for the railways in the next 10 years, just maintain them or improve services and speed? Is there anywhere where i can find out more about HSR in Ireland (or the lack of it!)

Sleipnir

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Why doesnt the government start building a high speed rail network between the main cities?(i know the first answer is cost).

Money, money, money

"THE Australians can build a railway 2,800km long for exactly the same price as our 23km Luas and can build it ahead of schedule and under budget

The contrast couldn't be starker. A continuous railway line between Adelaide and Darwin linking northern and southern Australia was finally completed yesterday.

It cost €775m and required two million railway sleepers, 97 bridges, 1,340 workers and is now one of the longest lines in the world. It was delivered well ahead of schedule and under the allocated budget.

Luas is set to cost €775m - and possibly over €800m if it is put "on stilts" at the Red Cow Roundabout - and spans 23km, comprising 14km from Tallaght to Connolly Station and 9km from Sandyford to St Stephen's Green.

Unlike the Australian line, Luas is running well over schedule and has been delayed time and time again.

While the Australian line cuts through the country's most intimidating desert terrain, Luas will run through streets that are now more dug up than a field of potatoes in Rush.

Campaigners who are trying to get the Government to re-open the Sligo-Limerick western corridor rail line will take comfort from the Australian experience.

Dismissed by its critics as "a train line from nowhere to nowhere", it was first discussed by the Australian colonies in the 1870s but abandoned because of its huge cost and central Australia's intimidating desert terrain.

John Howard, the prime minister, revived the project five years ago and the Ghan railway, named after the old camel route to Darwin, is seen as a symbol of Australia's growing self-confidence. It is the country's single largest infrastructure investment since the Snowy River hydro-electric project in 1953.

Not only is the new line one of the longest in the world, Australia is now the only continent, apart from Europe, to have both north-south and east-west rail crossings.

Bookings for the Ghan passenger service, due to begin next February, are already strong, although the rail link is expected to make most of its money by carrying freight from the container port in Darwin.

Stephen Bradford, the chief executive officer of Great Southern Railway, which will operate the passenger service, expects the journey to become a money-spinning tourist attraction.

"The new line passes through one of the last untouched regions of the world," he said, "from the red-hued vistas of the MacDonnell Ranges on to the magnificent gorges of Katherine and the tropical splendour of the Top End."

Qadhafi

Why doesnt the government start building a high speed rail network between the main cities?(i know the first answer is cost)......money moeny moeny

that doesnt answer my question. Thanks for that information about Austraila, however I wasnt referring to cost overruns in the Luas.

DadaKopf

Cost is an issue for I think three reasons:

1] land value is much more expensive here than in Australia
2] labour and construction costs are higher
3] Ireland is notorious for inadequate planning

Nice as the comparison may be, the situations between the two countries are too dissimilar to be comparable, really.

Recent indications show that Irich commerce is soon set to be hit negatively by traffic congestion so radical solutions have to be found and acted on ASAP and building more roads obviously isn't going to do it.

High speed rail links sound like a good idea, but that system is nodal and may not necessarily work in Ireland (1) given Ireland's size and low population density and (2) the fact that a logal road transport infrastructure would have to be built up first, or simultaneously to take the freight off the trains and onto the roads, to their destinations. It's arguable that the time it would take to get all that freight loaded and unloaded would be equal to the time it would take to drive from Dublin to Galway (if the destination was Galway).

So in the same way Dublin requires higher population densities to make the Luas as effective as possible, so does a plan like high-speed trains over such short distances.

Now, I'm completely in favour of using trains like this but I can also appreciate the issues around it.

However, I see the problem as being political more than anything else. In the government, there's an unwillingness to invest in transport in any integrated fashion. Right now, the logic is to develop road networks, which may or may not subsequently be augmented by rail networks. But the government has voiced its concerns over congestion (and road safety) which would lead us to conclude they are now willing to invest in railways but any of us will see that there's been no effort to significantly improve our present national rail services. Of course, the Unions should shoulder some of the blame, too.

The major cost or such a project, as I see it, is the extra expenses as a result of government mismanagement as the planning stage in the absence of (1) no clear transport policy in the first place and (2) a chronic lack of 'joined up thinking' between all related departments and committees.

I might be pessamistic but the main obstacle to this isn't funding, it's political incompetency.

Qadhafi

Personally I think its a political problem. The government seems just barely able to manage the roads issue. Mr Brennan seems to be really pissed about the whole thing and probably would like to have a good awl bitch about the state of the infastruture in Ireland. Fixing individual problems isnt going to work long term, we need strategy

Well doesnt Iarnród Éireann own the tracks? Couldnt that be upgraded to enable high speed rail service from Dublin to Galway, Limerick Cork and Dundalk? They are spending €22 billion on private roads

There was the arguement about poplutation density. Recently pointed out by the Galway Chamber of Commerce is that is a "Catch 22" situation. If we want centres of large polutation, we have to provide the infastructre to them. EBay didnt locate outside Dublin because of the infastruture deficit.

Really the dots need to be joined up. Park and ride and integrated ticketing etc.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Isn't the new roling stock on order for the Cork and Limerick routes supposed to be high speed? (well relatively)

Can you tell me more about this? I think all the trains in Ireland travel at 45-50mph ? 125mph can be classed at high speed.

I tried getting my hands on that Rail review document but I couldnt. Whats the plans for the railways in the next 10 years, just maintain them or improve services and speed? Is there anywhere where i can find out more about HSR in Ireland (or the lack of it!)

AFAIK Iarnrod Eireann has placed an order with a company called CAF in Spain to supply them with new rolling stock which will enable them to run faster services than it currently possible (the newer locomotives have top speed of 100mph) I assume these newer trains can go even faster

Qadhafi

AFAIK Iarnrod Eireann has placed an order with a company called CAF in Spain to supply them with new rolling stock which will enable them to run faster services than it currently possible (the newer locomotives have top speed of 100mph) I assume these newer trains can go even faste

Thats great news!! If all the trains on the intercity were going at that speed it would mean quicker better service than the car and people would see trains as the better option. Lets hope that Iarnród Éireann purchases enough of these carriages for all intercity routes.

Im still confused about the state of the railway though? If Iarnród Éireann can purchase these carriages without a big fanfair and 100mph services can be offered without a huge multibillion investment (maybe there was ) why doesnt the governement be pushing rail and opening new lines?

Rail is obviously the better alternative but is still seen as 2nd class transport policy. I'd rather have a 100mph service from my nearest town that a motorway built

mrblack

maybe I am out not very environmentally minded but I would rather drive for distances of less than 50 miles if there was a motorway most of the way than take the train. I am already paying high motor tax and insurance so I would like to get some return out of the government for those taxes and costs. Currently I use the commuter train from Leixlip to Connolly most days and while it has improved I would rather not leave my car at the train station all day every day where it can be burgled or worse-I already had the stereo taken from it last year at the station.

I would prefer to live in Tipperary than Lucan but when I looked at commuting from Thurles daily the trains take over two hours just to get to Hueston so its a non runner at present. If a HSR was introduced I would relook at it but there are so many stations in between I doubt if we will ever have a HSR between Cork and Dublin unless its a brand new set of rail tracks.

Nouf bitchin for me now

jd

Originally posted by BuffyBot
(the newer locomotives have top speed of 100mph) I assume these newer trains can go even faster

Dont think so...

BuffyBot

Originally posted by jd
Dont think so...

The top speed of the 201 class locomotives IE bought in the 90's is 100mph. Whether they ever get to that is most likely down to the fact that a lot of the tracks can't take it - but I think the Cork and Limerick lines, being quite recently modernised should be able to cope. Also, some of the older style carriages may not be able to take the strain.

Victor

By international standards, anything over 60mph is high speed. Cork - Dublin and Dublin – Belfast services often operate at 90mph, although in practice it is less than this (a) intermediate stops (b) need to main space between trains, some of which can't do 90mph (c) some short sections have curves that are too tight or slopes too steep for high speed operation (Cork-Mallow, Thurles, Ashford-Wicklow).

Improving the number of lines from Newbridge to Heuson and the signaling and platforms at Heuston will bring those speeds close to the magical 90mph. Moving Dublin - Galway trains via Mullingar will also improve things.

jd

Originally posted by BuffyBot
The top speed of the 201 class locomotives IE bought in the 90's is 100mph. Whether they ever get to that is most likely down to the fact that a lot of the tracks can't take it - but I think the Cork and Limerick lines, being quite recently modernised should be able to cope. Also, some of the older style carriages may not be able to take the strain.

Yeah-i knoww that-
there are no orders for new locos-the next order will be for regional dmus with a top speed of at most 90mph I'd guess.

jd

Originally posted by Victor
(c) some short sections have curves that are too tight or slopes too steep for high speed operation (Ashford-Wicklow).

think you mean arklow-wicklow..

jd

remember if stations are quite close good acceleration/deceleration could be as important as a high nominal top speed..

Qadhafi

They ordered some of these off CAF


Total power (Kw):: 1176
Standing room per tram (6p/m³):: 634
Acceleration from 0-100 Km/h (m/s2): 0.327
Average deceleration at 120 Km/h (m/s2): 0.88
Maximun speed (Km/h): 120
Emergency deceleration (m/s³): 0.88
Seats per train unit: 185
Total number of places: 819
http://www.caf.es/50/subseccion.asp?subseccion=5&id=474

However there is a seperate order for the intercity which are coming in service in 2005. just seen a picture of them in the paper, i think its this thats coming into service 2005(is this right?)

Total power (Kw):: 1080
Maximun speed (Km/h): 160
Service acceleration (m/s³): 0,8
Service deceleration (m/s³): 1,0
Emergency deceleration (m/s³): 1,1
Standing room per coach (4p/m³): 136
Total number of places: 136

If all trains where running at least 120K/ph to a possible 160k/ph, it would offer a real alternative to the car. Its hard to get information on Iarnród Éireann's plans if they have any? Are they just buying a few new carriages or do they actually have a master plan:eek:

Best practices for High Speed Rail for those intrested in it

[Link added and IMG link fixed - Victor]

jd

The picture is of a 2900 seies dmu-yop speed of about 75mph.
NIR have a similar order-but I think regeared for a top speed of 90mph.
The other other is for carriages.iw prob hauled by 201s
http://www.caf.es/40/noticia.asp?id=57

IE are meant to put in a new order for Regional railcars soon-perhaps servcing waterford/wexford lines and similar.

DadaKopf

That link don't work.

AND: when are the tracks gonna be upgraded too and what's the ETA on that?

Victor

Originally posted by DadaKopf
That link don't work.

Linky fixy.

Originally posted by DadaKopf
AND: when are the tracks gonna be upgraded too and what's the ETA on that?

hahahahahha

Well at least they don't go clickity clack anymore - mostly.

jd

Originally posted by DadaKopf
That link don't work.

AND: when are the tracks gonna be upgraded too and what's the ETA on that?

works for me...
text is..
Iarnrod Eireann (Irish Rail) has signed another contract with CAF for the manufacture and supply of 67 passenger coaches for 117 million euros. The contract, which includes an option to purchase 24 more coaches, is composed of first class and standard coaches, generators cars with cabs and buffet cars. They are equipped with the most modern passenger comfort and safety systems and run at a maximum speed of 200 kilometres an hour.

The trains operate in fixed, 9-coach compositions -with a capacity for 499 passengers-and 4 in reserve, ensuring high comfort transport on the Intercity services between Dublin and Cork. The new trains will commence operating in October 2005


---
However you need locos to haul -top speed of a 201 is about 160km/hr

<ainlines are scheduled to be relayed by 2004..
according to here..
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/track_renewal.asp

Victor

Originally posted by jd
think you mean arklow-wicklow..

Apologies, you are correct, I've never actually used the route.

Qadhafi

Iarnród Éireann.. A major order for 67 new InterCity carriages, which we hope will be the first of many orders, has been placed with CAF of Spain. Costing €117 million, these will operate from 2005 on all regular Dublin/Cork services as well as key Dublin/Galway and Dublin/Limerick services. A further order of regional railcars for other InterCity routes is planned...

Lets hope they replace all the intercity carriages sooner rather than later. A 160Km/h 200Km/h service would be pretty good.

Well at least they don't go clickity clack anymore - mostly.

hahahahaha:D



It seems from what Ive read so far, the railway system isnt to bad, things should look pretty good in late 2005.
Maybe when they get all the track upgraded to Continuous Welded Rail (CWR) on concrete sleepers and modern computerised "CTC" signalling Iarnród Éireann can start looking at



VARIABLE GAUGE TRAINS 250 Km/h

Residual acceleration at 250 Km/h (cm/s2: 5
Service deceleration at 250 Km/h (m/s2):: 0,35
Service deceleration at 120 Km/h (m/s2):: 0,5
Total output (kw): 4000
Maximun speed (Km/h): 250
Service acceleration (m/s³): 0,52
Seats per train unit: 237 + 1 disabled person’s seat


whoooooooooooooooseeeeeeeeee

Qadhafi

Looks like Iarnród Éireann doesnt think much of the idea of high speed rail


>* high speed railways are extremely expensive to build, operate and
>maintain.
>* normally they only link fairly large cities (2/3 million and
>upwards).
>* it is considered that the population densities do not exist in
>Ireland to justify the expenditure involved.
>* in Irish terms, the reduction in journey times would not be
>significant enough to justify the expenditure given that the train would
>still have to stop at some stations on the route.
>Martin Darcy
>Public Transport (CIE Corporate Affairs & Investment) Division
>

I dont agree with any of that, apart from the first arguement which the rest are based on. If there was cash in the morning for a HSR connection down to cork they be building it. Why is the government paying air arann to offer flights down to cork and Galway and a white elephant motorway ?

Qadhafi

Dear Sir

Can I begin by stating that Irish Rail are statutorily responsible for the
operation of the railway network. The issues you are raising in relation to
high speed rail are of a technical nature, best addressed to Irish Rail
themselves. The following is my understanding of the position from a
non-technical perspective.

As I stated earlier, to operate at speeds in excess of 100mph requires
upgrading of track, signalling, rolling stock and the virtual abolition of
'at grade' crossings. In Ireland's case there are individual points on the
line to, for example Cork, where permanent speed restrictions exist. The
track geometry in these areas would have to be completely redesigned at some
considerable cost. In Ireland's case the longest rail line is from Dublin
to Cork at 165 miles approx. The acceleration and braking capabilities of a
train would have to be significant to achieve an average speed in excess of
100mph let alone 125mph.

Notwithstanding the above, as technology improves and costs reduce it may
well be possible to have high speed trains in Ireland at some point in the
future, however, no plans currently exist to do so.

As far as reducing journey times is concerned Irish Rail have already taken
up to 30 minutes off some routes on their fastest non-stop services, since
the June 2003 timetable came into operation, and I understand that further
reductions are planned. Perhaps you might address this question to Irish
Rail also.

Regards

John R

Qadhafi you know not what you are talking about.

Firstly using the term high speed is useless, it can be applied to anything from 60mph upwards.

Irish Rail already operate up to 100 mph on Dublin - Cork and Belfast.

The current loco fleet is not capable of speeds above 100mph so even if the new coaching stock is rated higher it will not matter.
The current coaches used on Cork services are based on the IC125 coaches from the UK which operate in service up to 125mph (and are part of the train which held the diesel speed record for 20 years) so there will be no speed increase with this new rolling stock.

Diesel trains are not used anywhere at speeds above 125mph as they are uneconomic, apart from the UK and a few other countries 100mph is the limit for diesel trains and since electrification is not on the cards here that is the limit.

Increasing the top speed from 100 -125 mph would require a significant re-build of the signalling equipment, and would not give a huge increase in overall journey times. The point about intermediate stops is that as there are relatively short distances between stops the lenth of time a train would spend at the increased speed would be quite short before it would have to slow down for the next stop.

All of the Dublin - Cork line along with much of the rest of the network is already using a central control signalling system and has been for many years.

Highspeed lines such as those in France or Germany for speeds in excess of 160mph are dependent on specially constructed lines that have no sharp curves and are dedicated to high speed-only trains.

Qadhafi

listen Sherlock, this is the reason why I started this thread, to find out why high speed isnt being pushed in this country !!

The last post was what IE sent me as a response to my questions.

Yeah there seems to be a real bottle neck just outside Cork where speed restrictions apply.

Obviously IE have to continue upgrading the track and remove any sharp corners etc. It seems unlikely that High Speed Rail will exist in this country this century. However its obviously the way to go, there is a lot of money being spent in Dublin on roads and the penny has to drop with infastructure planners that this will just lead to more traffic.

Highspeed lines such as those in France or Germany for speeds in excess of 160mph are dependent on specially constructed lines that have no sharp curves and are dedicated to high speed-only trains.

I dont think thats 100% true. if you check out HSR
you will see that HSR can operate on existing track, Im not 100% sure about France + Germany and whether or not they share track.

HSR is expensive like any bit of infastructure, but so is spending billions on the road network.

bloggs

The government are going to spend 750 million on a new road system near Mullingar (i think), this money i believe would be much better spent on the rail system. I take the point about Ireland not being viable for highspeed trains, but certainly a minium average speed should be given and maintained. Also reducing travel times and prices should be paramount to the rain service (cost of a flight to Cork is not much more expensive than a rail trip to Cork).

Victor

Originally posted by Qadhafi
As far as reducing journey times is concerned Irish Rail have already taken up to 30 minutes off some routes on their fastest non-stop services, since the June 2003 timetable came into operation, and I understand that further reductions are planned. Perhaps you might address this question to Irish Rail also.

Actually many speed are now slower than 10 years ago. The typical express (not local) Cork - Heuston was 2:30h with the Sunday "bat out of hell" train doing 2:20h. Very few trains now reach the 2:30h.

embraer170

BTW does anyone know of any good Railway Forums, except IRN?

Jer

Qadhafi

In light of the extra €2bn from the EU for Road and Rail investment. Shouldnt there be a bigger emphasis now placed on upgrading at least Cork-Dublin to HSR. They have the extra money now, and motorways just create new traffic jams.