Ahern proposes independent co-location facilities near eircom COs

zz03

Ahern moves to speed up broadband access
Tuesday, September 16 12:04:12

(BizWorld)

Communications Minister Dermot Ahern today moved to speed up competition in the delivery of cheaper broadband internet in Ireland.

Ahern told the Global Leaders Forum in Rome that he is to investigate the establishment of new cheaper access points to local telephone exchanges which would end control of phone lines remaining in the hands of one player.

He said that the establishment of what are called independent co-location facilities or Community Broadband Exchanges (CBE) beside existing facilities would play a major role in driving internet competition.


"I am presently considering the establishment of independent co-location facilities separate from the incumbent telephone exchanges throughout Ireland. These would be introduced on a phased basis," he said.

These would offer unrestricted access to the local loop at the price set by the regulator. They would obviate the need for each operator to construct their own centres and would end the need to rent space in the incumbent exchange.

Ahern also said they would drive competition by allowing customers switch between operators in a matter of seconds by changing a customer connection within the facility.

"In a telecoms market without real cross-platform competition and where local loop unbundling has not sufficiently delivered, I am prepared to step in to assist the market," Ahern said.

"The bottom line is this - incumbents focus on shareholders, Governments and Ministers must focus on citizens and the broader economic picture. To that end intervention is justified," he added.

The Minister welcomed recent moves by Eircom and Esat to cut connection fees for DSL Broadband but stressed that monthly DSL broadband fees are still too high.


http://www.businessworld.ie/livenews.htm?a=761463;s=rollingnews.htm

MDR

someone should FYI him about line quality.

Paddy20

Well, looks as though Dermot has finally got the message, and is even prepared to grasp the nettle. Hope Eircom are listening to that very clear decisive statement of reality. At last.

P.

DEmeant0r

oho, finally this country is doing something right, Ireland might get back up there in the cheaper BB country yet.

flamegrill

How many years will it take though? God knows is the answer, positive feedback but unless something is started NOW, it wont make a shagging difference.

Politicians allways play on this sort of thing:
politician "yeah new motorway from dublin to waterford"
guy "when's that starting?"
politician "End of the decade, but vote for me now"

Same shíte will happen with this, I'd love for it to happen, but deep down I know its bullshít.

Fúcking government are wasters.

Paul

seamus

Yay and hmmm.

Fantastic idea, but this is Ireland. As flamegrill says, how long will it take? Dermot has done some good work so far, but after he's 'investigated' the possibility, how long before a consultation paper gets published? Then how long before it's approved by whomever? How long again until rollout begins?

Who's to say that by the time the next election rolls around, the next minister won't just bin the plan, if it hasn't started already?

/me remains sceptical

spongebob

1,100 exchanges in Ireland, €500k a pop for these buildings on average.

€550,000,000 the lot. The fibre rings will swallow up about €100m on phase one alone.

I see tax breaks on these as a good incentive, like the car parks one. For one year only of course, get them built fast .

Moriarty

/me echos what flamegrill and seamus have already said.

If it happens, it'll be a good thing. If it happens and if it doesn't take 15 years to complete.

zz03

Originally posted by Muck
1,100 exchanges in Ireland, €500k a pop for these buildings on average.

€550,000,000 the lot. The fibre rings will swallow up about €100m on phase one alone.
.

Has muck got a new job lately?

They don't need buildings for these co-location units do they?

Start off with a good old street cabinet (like a traffic signal control box) adjacent to the eircom CO. Run a few hundred pairs into it from the MDF. When a subscriber signs up for non-eircom DSL, two pairs are used between the cabinet and the MDF - one leading to the switch side of the MDF and the other leading to the subscriber's side. All it needs is an ESB supply and external meter. When one cabinet is full (of the new super small inexpensive DSLAMS you were talking about recently), a new cabinet is commissioned.

Eircom's install would involve no more than connecting the two copper pairs running into the external cabinet to the appropriate subscriber's termination on the MDF.

Keep it simple!

zz..

bk

Originally posted by Muck
1,100 exchanges in Ireland, €500k a pop for these buildings on average.

€550,000,000 the lot. The fibre rings will swallow up about €100m on phase one alone.

I see tax breaks on these as a good incentive, like the car parks one. For one year only of course, get them built fast .

Muck, might he be just talking about co-locating with the regional ADSL pops (of which they are 11) or perhaps the primary exchange (of which I believe there are 40 odd)?

zz03

Originally posted by bk
Muck, might he be just talking about co-locating with the regional ADSL pops (of which they are 11) or perhaps the primary exchange (of which I believe there are 40 odd)?

Unfortunately the DSLAM and therefore co-location has to be at the RSU or MSU serving the customer in this case.

zz..

dahamsta

One suggestion that was mooted at the LLU Forum was portacabins in the car parks...

adam

spongebob

Originally posted by zz03
Has muck got a new job lately?

They don't need buildings for these co-location units do they?

Start off with a good old street cabinet (like a traffic signal control box) adjacent to the eircom CO. When one cabinet is full (of the new super small inexpensive DSLAMS you were talking about recently), a new cabinet is commissioned.

Keep it simple!

You are quite right ZZ but I have a monetary interest in a weatherproof shed next to an exhange in th'wesht and would like to gouge the revenue at the higher marginal rate for 10 years

Street cabs would not be enough near larger exchanges (about 100 of them) but would suffice for the rest. A tax break from January 2004 could offer a scrappage for pub licences if they convert the premises into a co-lo, hows that for equitable.

A beehive with a battery in it would do some of the tiny ones.

I am more interested in how Dermot comes up with a systemic approach that is applicable nationwide. How about proving you lost money on Eircom shares before you can sign up to this investment scheme ? anyone ?

M

Qadhafi

Plans to speed up broadband unveiled
Ailish O'Hora
The Irish Independent
17-Sep-2003
******************
COMMUNICATIONS Minister Dermot Ahern has announced new proposals designed to speed up the delivery of broadband services through the introduction of direct competition to Eircom's local exchanges, know as the 'local loop'.

Speaking at the Global Leaders Forum in Rome, he said his department is investigating the establishment of new cheaper access points to local telephone exchanges that would, in effect, end control of phone lines remaining in the hands of Eircom.

"In a telecoms market without real cross-platform competition and where local loop unbundling has not sufficiently delivered, I am prepared to step in and assist the market," he said.

"The bottom line is this - incumbents focus on shareholders, governments and ministers must focus on citizens and the broader economic picture. To that end, intervention is justified," he said.

Eircom would not comment on the development that would end the need for competitors like Esat BT or MCI to rent space in the incumbent's exchanges.

The Minister welcomed the recent moves by Eircom and Esat BT to cut connection fees for DSL broadband but stressed that monthly fees are still too high.

While the proposal was welcomed by Eircom competitors and telecoms group ALTO, other commentators questioned the viability of the proposal and the potential cost to the Government.

But they added that the announcement was a signal to Eircom of how committed Mr Ahern is to having effective competition in the broadband market.

Early estimates would suggest that the construction of an exchange would cost about €130,000.

Meanwhile, the Commission for Communications Regulation says it has received 128 applications from 12 applicants for the first round of the new fixed wireless access local area licences at the 3.5 GHz band which allows for the provision of broadband services without using the local loop.

Applicants included companies like Irish Broadband, Chorus Communications and Fulnett.

A second phase of the process will start after the first licences have been awarded.

iwb

This is somewhat perplexing. First of all, how many of these will be built? There are over 1,000 Eircom exchanges.
Next, an OLO will still have to go into the Eircom exchange to do the cross connect so it isn't separating it completely.
And ultimately, there is still the problem of backhaul. Unless there is an alternate source, an OLO will still have to get it from Eircom.
Can anyone explain the logic of this to me?
BTW, I am not trying to knock the idea, just want to understand how it will work in practice.

flamegrill

This was posted about yesterday, it will happen somewhere between now and the end of the NEXT decade. Although as i already said I'd welcome it sooner with open arms

Paul

mike65

Frankly I'm amazed and sceptical. Firstly the government privatises the incumbant and then sits on its arse as said
company does its level best to stymie the competition and now they (the government) says enough is enough we'll build an alternative infrastructure. This is madness, all they need to do surely is frame the laws under which eircom opperate to allow unimpeeded competition. Not spend tax-payers money fixing regulatory failures....

Mike.

Moriarty

Threads merged.

flamegrill

Damn you and your merging

MDR

Move this thread to 'Market Policy Issues' please.

Dangger

There is a write up on this issue in today's Irish Times, by JAmie Smyth. There is little detail however on the plan which is described as allowing complete bypassing ofEircom's network which I cannot understand. Surely they need access to unbundled loops.

IOFFL are hoping to arrange a meeting witht eh relevant division within the DCMNR in October to investigate the plans further.

Urban Weigl

I was very skeptical at first (I still am actually), but in the absence of a strong regulator this may be the best possible solution.

Remember these "exchanges" probably will not be buildings, but rather outdoor cabinets or something similar to that.

Eurorunner

There is a write up on this issue in today's Irish Times, by JAmie Smyth.

Would be grateful if someone can post this?

iwb

Irish Times Friday, 19/09/03

Ambitions to be tech hub look silly in light of survey findings



The Republic is ranked 51st in terms of broadband penetration which is hardly likely to impress inward investors, writes Jamie Smyth,Technology Reporter

The Republic's ambitions to become a major technology hub looked somewhat foolish yesterday with the publication of an influential survey showing that the uptake of broadband is painfully slow.

Considerably less than one out of every 100 Irish citizens has currently subscribed to a broadband (high-speed internet) service, which is capable of transforming how people use their computers and technology.

The International Telecommunications Union (ITU) ranks Ireland 51st in terms of broadband penetration behind developing nations such as Peru and Croatia, hardly the kind of record that will impress inward investors.

The figures detailed in the Birth of Broadband report may be based on 2002 statistics but with the estimated take-up of broadband currently standing at just above 10,000 users, many analysts are concerned that the Republic may miss the next wave of the technology revolution.

"It [the ranking] is a pretty damning indictment and flies in the face of the IDA's message that Ireland is a technology centre with dynamic and skilled technology workers," says Mr Enda Hardiman, founder of the Irish telecoms consultancy Hardiman Telecommunications.

"Broadband is very important for firms that are considering investing in a country because they need high bandwidth for their communications systems... it will be difficult to sustain the IDA's message without it."

Over the past two years IDA Ireland has consistently lobbied both the Government and the main telecoms firms to roll out broadband at low cost.

It has also admitted that the lack of broadband infrastructure in the regions is a factor preventing it from persuading firms to locate outside Dublin. Just this week internet firm eBay admitted infrastructure was one of the reasons it chose to locate in Dublin rather than accept a better grant package in Athlone.

Even though broadband is now available to 55 per cent of the population, the Government believes now that uptake is being hindered by high prices set in the Republic at about €50 per month.

The Minister for Communications, Mr Ahern, says people will subscribe to broadband when prices come down.

He blames the poor results from the ITU survey on the historical position in the Republic, which had a lot to do with the sale of Eircom, the former State-owned Telecom Éireann. Eircom has only recently started to roll out its broadband programme, says Mr Ahern, who is currently considering more Government intervention to boost availability of broadband and reduce prices.

"I will bring forward a package of measures designed to promote the uptake of broadband shortly and one of the elements will include proposals to build new facilities," he says.

The Government is already spending €60 million in 2003 and 2004 to build fibre rings around 19 key development towns in the regions, which will be made available to carriers, including Eircom, on an equal basis.

The new facilities now being considered by Mr Ahern would probably only benefit Eircom's competitors and enable them to bypass the Eircom telephone exchanges that are required to provide broadband.

The reluctance of incumbents such as Eircom to allow access to these exchanges - and associated lines to offer broadband services - is a major factor in stifling growth of broadband in Ireland and across Europe generally, according to the ITU.

Instead of opening up their infrastructure to competitors the former state monopolies, such as British Telecom and Eircom, have sought instead to make rivals buy their broadband products wholesale. The issue is a constant source of friction between Eircom, on one hand, and its rivals together with the telecoms regulator, Comreg, on the other.

Eircom's main competitor in the Republic, Esat BT, says that Eircom has frustrated its attempts to set up its own viable broadband service. "I'd like to invest more in Ireland but we need the certainty of regulation to justify these investments," Esat BT chief executive Mr Bill Murphy says.

Some observers believe regulatory failure is behind the Government's new activism in the telecoms arena. Not surprisingly, Esat BT supports the Government's proposal to invest in new facilities. It believes the new telecoms assets would enable it to provide broadband at cheaper prices to consumers.

But the Minister has provided few details of the new broadband plan ahead of a Cabinet meeting to discuss the issue.

His Department estimates that it would cost €130,000 to build a single co-location facility, and with more than 200 main Eircom exchanges the final bill may reach up to €30 million.

There is also an extremely sensitive political question over the viability of building an alternative telecoms infrastructure to Eircom's existing exchanges just a few years after the State sold the company in a public flotation.

But in a speech in Rome this week Mr Ahern set forth a strong ideological belief that governments should intervene in markets where "conditions of market failure or of sluggish market responsiveness" exist.

The clear implication of the Government's policy is that Eircom is frustrating the process of liberalisation. Key industry sources suggest the current legal battle between Eircom and the regulator over the cost of accessing its lines and a two year delay in launching broadband because of other regulatory disputes has forced the Government's hand.

Mr David McRedmond, Eircom's director of strategy, would not comment directly on the Government's proposed strategy yesterday, but defends Eircom's role in promoting internet and broadband in the Republic.

He blames the slow pace of Eircom's broadband rollout on the telecoms regulator who would not provide the firm with a broadcast licence in 2000, when it first sought to launch broadband. He also stresses the positive role Eircom is playing with the roll- out of broadband.

This week Eircom cut the price of its wholesale broadband product for competitors to spur demand. And despite competitors' complaints that they now face a "price squeeze" from Eircom's retail arm, the removal of €200 set-up charges should make the service more attractive.

But as the ITU survey results demonstrate, the situation is now critical with the Government facing embarrassment over its claim to be a European e-hub. Eircom's belated move to cut the cost of its wholesale prices could be a case of too little too late, to prevent the spectre of Government intervention in the market.

dahamsta

Over the past two years IDA Ireland has consistently lobbied both the Government and the main telecoms firms to roll out broadband at low cost.

Pity they kept so quiet about it. The IDA obviously doesn't believe in teamwork.

adam

Paddy20

Quote:- Irish Times Friday 19th September 2003,

"The new facilities now being considered by Mr Ahern would probably only benefit Eircoms competitors and enable them to bypass Eircom telephone exchanges " .

Oh, sweet Lord, sweet justice, Paddy gets on his knees and prays!.

Can it be true ?...

P.

Xian

I'll be in an interview with David Murphy of Newstalk 106 tomorrow at 1.30pm on this topic.

Eircom, Esat BT and Alto have declined (to date) an invitation to join.

Paddy20

How do I get to listen to Newstalk 106 tomorrow at 1.30pm, either online or by radio. As I live in Donegal I think I have too listen to this online ?..

Xian,

If Eircom, Esat BT and Alto have declined!, all the more time for you. Good luck.

P.

dahamsta

Paddy20: http://62.25.96.7/newstalk

EsatBT are all over the shop at the moment. I wonder what companies ALTO is made up of exactly?

So many questions. It's difficult to lay them out line by line, so please bear with me...

- It seems a given that these facilities will be interconnected with Eircom exchanges, but it's critical that OLO's be allowed unhindered access to local loops, and Eircom isn't going to like that one bit. How is the Department going to go about this? The amount of drawn-out High Court cases and severely compromised "deals" currently in effect have proven to us that regulation simply isn't working at this level, so is the Department going to draft legislation to force this upon the incumbent?

- By the Department's own reckoning this is going to cost a pretty penny. Has the Department of Finance agreed to set aside the required funds? Also, many of the rollouts in the first phase of the fibre rings project are moving ahead at an impressive pace, however information on the commencement of the second phase is next to nonexistant. If the Department is having difficulty budgeting for the fibre rings, how is it able to budget for this project?

- Where will these facilities be located, on a national level? Will they be installed near to the fibre rings, to enhance the last-mile delivery of this project? If so, isn't there a risk that this will enhance the digital divide still further? If not, how does the Department intend to solve the last-mile issue that will still exist after the fibre rings are completed? Again we come back to the loops, again we need answer as to how this situation is going to be improved.

I'm sure I have another question, I just can't think of it right now. Hopefully the Minister or a representative of the Department will turn up tomorrow, so I hope you'll be able to put some of these question to them Xian. If not, I hope you'll do the same if you make a submission to the Department on this subject.

adam

Paddy20

dahamsta,

Many thanks, just clicked on that link. Straight in to the studio live via my Windows Media Player. Very handy.

P.;)

Eurorunner

Thanks for posting the article iwb.

Over the past two years IDA Ireland has consistently lobbied both the Government and the main telecoms firms to roll out broadband at low cost.

We can only take their word for it - unless someone here can confirm this?

Even though broadband is now available to 55 per cent of the population...

...55%..whose figure is this exactly?


Look forward to listening to the interview xian, good luck:)

Dangger

If not, I hope you'll do the same if you make a submission to the Department on this subject.

IOFFL have meeting with the DCMNR next week to further investigate this latest announcement.

wexfordman

In my humble opinion, its a start. Its a start cos, for the first time, the governemnt are considering bypassing Eircom as much as they can. Maybe they have finally realised the mistake of privatising them in the first place, but thats not something that can be rectified now.

However, now that some real, sensible sugestions are comming fro the gov, how about a few more idease:-
1) Seeing as we've sold off and privatised our best chance of rolling out a broadband network (eircom), lets look at what other state assets we have left that wol dallow us do this....
2) The ESB, still state owned, has one of the biggest private networks in thecountry, and has both fibre and radio rings all round the place, a 155Mb radio backbone runs from Dublin right around the south, through to Cork,Limerick and back up to Dublin. On top of this, the have radio towers in every rural area and town in the country. Why not make use of this before its too late.
3) RTE. If you want to look at getting good penetration around the country, look at RTE, who also have a HUGE radio back bone (at least 155Mb SDH ring in the south of the country again). Who in the country does not have tv reception, and so it would be possible to put in a wireless infrastructure this way.

I know the technologies are different, and theres a bit more to it, but there's two large semi state companies with near 100% geographic coverage, service by fibre and radio backbones.

Why not bring this in to government strategy for broadband also. If you even hint at some form of serious strategy at all ireland coverage, that alone might scare eircom into getting there act together.

Anyone know if this ahs been mentioned or looked at before ?
wexfordman

spongebob

Yes. We know about these.

Add in the Bord Gáis fibre, Aurora Telecom as its known.

You will probably have to relay out from Waterford using ESB towers/pylons if you are in rural Wexford. Alternatively use Mt Leinster in Carlow from the north. Not all ESB towers are of a high standard, some are but twigs in top of a spare pole.

The ESB have few or no 3G contracts so far so they are feeling a bit neglected. The ESB will also allow Microwave backhaul and transmission antennae on their steel pylons , those used for 110Kv and 220Kv lines. If you see a line crossing an N road on your travels then scan along it, they are surprisingly common.

RTE has more towers per sq mile on the west coast owing to terrain and RnG TG4 being there but the ESB only has a couple of mouldy poles which are not up to carrying Dishes and sectoral antennae. RTE have no spare capacity in their network, it is High frequency LOS (10Ghz plus) and suffers in fog. They do have the towers though. Get your own backhaul .

HTH

M

wexfordman

The ESB have a lot more than a ffew Mouldy poles with twigs on them, and they make very good use of them by leasing to third parties. The ESB are also very proactive in looking for good locations, applying for planning and building large masts al around the country, anything from 15metre to 36metre masts. These masts are used for GSM 2G and 3G transmission.

The ESB have very good 155MB SDH radio links, which, yes is about the 10G range, but does not suffer from fog as you say, at least to my mind it should not, as I can name 2 other identical SDH radio networks (one of which is RTE),in the country running 155mB links on freqs between 10 and 13Ghz that do not suffer from fog.

RTE also have a very good network infrastructure, which is leased out to other operators on a regular basis. Capacitywise, if the will was there, it could be carried, as radio networks are easily upgradeable with regards capacity.

To get into wexford using radio hops from waterford is easy, its been done, you could link waterford city and wexford town in 2 hops.

Dont dismiss the networks we still manage to own, if we wanted to, they could be put to use to rollout broadband to everyone. The infrastructure is already there...
wexfordman

spongebob

Originally posted by wexfordman
The ESB have a lot more than a ffew Mouldy poles with twigs on them, and they make very good use of them by leasing to third parties. The ESB are also very proactive in looking for good locations, applying for planning and building large masts al around the country, anything from 15metre to 36metre masts. These masts are used for GSM 2G and 3G transmission.

They are the most active buildout at the moment, I suspect that it has slowed down this year. Do you know anyone in Towerco?

The ESB have very good 155MB SDH radio links, which, yes is about the 10G range,

Do they rent cacacity within the P2P SDH links ? Towerco hum and haw about this and won;t answer the question .

.. but does not suffer from fog as you say, at least to my mind it should not, as I can name 2 other identical SDH radio networks (one of which is RTE),in the country running 155mB links on freqs between 10 and 13Ghz that do not suffer from fog.

Wexford is not the wesht. The RTE network in the wesht can be afected by fog under certain circumstances. Maybe we have a better class of fog around here. Wexford is probably a short hop Mt Leinster - Kippure and a short hop Kippure Donnybrook

RTE also have a very good network infrastructure, which is leased out to other operators on a regular basis. Capacitywise, if the will was there, it could be carried, as radio networks are easily upgradeable with regards capacity.

Agreed, also up in the 10Ghz and above band.

Dont dismiss the networks we still manage to own, if we wanted to, they could be put to use to rollout broadband to everyone. The infrastructure is already there...
wexfordman

I also agree with that statement. We have a government with no integrated plan to use these assets. That is our problem. I discoursed the issue with Antoin O Lachtnain recently. You could reactivate This Thread maybe . One matter on which we could NOT agree was whether we could get INTO the existing SDH links at an affordable cost or whether we would be better off providing our own Wireless backhaul.

M

De Rebel

Originally posted by iwb
Irish Times Friday, 19/09/03

Mr David McRedmond, Eircom's director of strategy, <snip> blames the slow pace of Eircom's broadband rollout on the telecoms regulator who would not provide the firm with a broadcast licence in 2000, when it first sought to launch broadband.

Can anybody expand on this?

wexfordman

Muck, in response to your post:-


1), I dont know anyone in towerco direct, I work as a radio planner for a mobile firm, and so deal with them for matters of rollout.


2)The ESB have very good 155MB SDH radio links, which, yes is about the 10G range,


3)The ESB's SDH Radio links would form part of a ring, with the facility to drop a pipe out of the ring at any hub. So it would be simple to provide a 2Mb pipe from say, a mast located in Youghal, back to Dublin. Again, I dont know the specifics of their network, but what we are debating here is the basic principles of any SDH network, and they have one, along with RTE



"Wexford is not the wesht. The RTE network in the wesht can be afected by fog under certain circumstances. Maybe we have a better class of fog around here. Wexford is probably a short hop Mt Leinster - Kippure and a short hop Kippure Donnybrook"

3)I am not talking about wexford specifically, there are many SDH hops in the country operated by the likes of ESB, RTE and mobile operators. THese hops form part of SDH rings which are the backbone transmission networks fo rthese operators. These high capacity links can be in excess of 50-60km. Capacity can be doubled by using x-polarasition techniques, (doubling your 155Mb capacity to over 300Mb's). This has been the case all over the country, and these networks have been up and running for quite a while now. Weather can be afactor, but overall, these links are extremely reliable

"RTE also have a very good network infrastructure, which is leased out to other operators on a regular basis. Capacitywise, if the will was there, it could be carried, as radio networks are easily upgradeable with regards capacity.

Agreed, also up in the 10Ghz and above band.
As above, there is nothing wrong with using links above 10Ghz, and weather is not an issue here either."



I read the post you pointed to, and I agree with many of the points. Lets look at it realistically, if we want broadband, we could using various existing types of infrastructure, have a very robust wireless broadband network rolled out in a relatively short period of time. Yes, also use existing public, private or council owned structures, water towers etc. But why spend millions burying a fibre around a couple of towns, when in reality, to meet todays (and future) needs, at a much lower cost, and a shorter time frame, a couple of good wireless sites would provide the solution. If we'd only get the government to sit back and look at the infrastructure its got.....

rtrt :cool: :ninja: :ninja:

bk

Originally posted by De Rebel
Irish Times Friday, 19/09/03

Mr David McRedmond, Eircom's director of strategy, <snip> blames the slow pace of Eircom's broadband rollout on the telecoms regulator who would not provide the firm with a broadcast licence in 2000, when it first sought to launch broadband.

Can anybody expand on this?

Yes, it is the latest spin from Eircom.

But first let me explain the history as I understand it (I'm open to correction).

A few years ago Eircom where really worried that NTL would rollout broadband infrastructure and compete with Eircom as a full service company offering TV, Telephone and Broadband (the trinity holy grail) in one affordable package, like NTL have done in the UK.

Eircom decided that if NTL was going to encrouage into it's markets (telephone, net) then Eircom would have to strike back at NTL.

So Eircom spent a great deal of money buying and trialling one of the most expensive types of DSL and media encoding servers that would allow them to send TV over DSL and they applied to the ODTR for a license to broadcast TV.

The ODTR turned them down and then the threat failed to materialise from NTL. So Eircom decided to scrap all this spanking new gear they bought and went away and bought more affordable DSL gear that just does standard DSL. They of course needed to trial it all over again (one of the reasons why it took so long for DSL to hit Ireland), but now we eventually have this DSL.

But an Eircom employee mentioning this now is just more smoke and mirrors spin. In reality it was very unlikely that this TV over DSL technology would have been possible or affordable 3 or 4 years ago. It is was extremly new and untested technology at the time and it is only now in the last month starting to make an appearance in the UK. It is doubtful that Eircom would have had the infrastructure to deliver TV quality broadcasts over DSL.

It seems to me that IOFFL has been very succesfull at debunking Eircoms excuses for not rolling out DSL quicker (such as there be no interest amongst consumers in bb, there being no content to sell bb, no killer app to sell bb, etc.) and Eircom are desperately searching for a new excuse. It is getting pretty pathetic now to be honest.

It is very simple Eircom, it is all about the two A's, Afordability and Availability.

spongebob

Originally posted by wexfordman
1), I dont know anyone in towerco direct, I work as a radio planner

I think that your experience of Towerco may be to do with having a general licence. If one rings up on behalf of a non licencee then they can be unhelpful. I think that this is simply because they are understaffed. I would advise the ESB that there should be a small team specifically for ad-hoc requests rather than national SDH capacity requests. The ESB often consider that Irish carriers should have an STM-1 with a point code as a starting point. Again this is because they are understaffed at the ss7 signalling level IMO.

2)The ESB have very good 155MB SDH radio links, which, yes is about the 10G range,


I think their spacing is closer than the RTE masts. ESB masts tend to be within 20-30km LOS of their nearest peer.

3)The ESB's SDH Radio links would form part of a ring, with the facility to drop a pipe out of the ring at any hub. So it would be simple to provide a 2Mb pipe from say, a mast located in Youghal, back to Dublin. Again, I dont know the specifics of their network, but what we are debating here is the basic principles of any SDH network, and they have one, along with RTE

If this new carrier ONLY required 2Mb I can see the ESB (currently) as not very interested and helpful. I think the government should sponsor this ad-hoc team and instruct them that Carrier X , a new entity, should be allowed to drop as little as 512k at a given mast. You are describing 2Mbit drops within a much higher aggregate demand I fear.

The ESB could also be dealing with one individual per 512k drop in this scenario. In your experience the same person could be dealing with 10 x 2Mbit on different masts a month . That is good businesd for the ESB but tying up someone for a day over 1 x 512k with the next 512k pipe at least 6 months away is not as profitable so I cannot blame Towerco for deflecting these requests.

That is why the government should sponsor a special Towerco team on a contract to explore this Micro-Carrier market. Irishwan would not string me up for saying this I trust

3)there are many SDH hops in the country operated by the likes of ESB, RTE and mobile operators. THese hops form part of SDH rings which are the backbone transmission networks fo rthese operators. These high capacity links can be in excess of 50-60km.

a) ESB probably has the most capacity. RTE less so and I am not sure if they are willing to partition these pipes. I heard they dont want new business.
b) No large mobile operator (with a 3G licence) will host Wireless BWA network within their SDH and provide masts for them to boot. Turkeys and Christmas come to mind here. Meteor could (and should for lots of reasons) but their network is small in terms of Geographic coverage, remember my 80% threshold argument elsewhere.
c) The quality and cost of kit for resilient 20Km vs 60km is an order of magnitude greater, I would suggest €15k against €150k. If the hops exceed that then the initial Capex is getting a bit ridiculous.

Lets look at it realistically, if we want broadband, we could using various existing types of infrastructure, have a very robust wireless broadband network rolled out in a relatively short period of time. Yes, also use existing public, private or council owned structures, water towers etc.

We are all agreed on the holistic approach then. Nobody in here will dispute that statement you made.

But why spend millions burying a fibre around a couple of towns, when in reality, to meet todays (and future) needs, at a much lower cost, and a shorter time frame, a couple of good wireless sites would provide the solution. If we'd only get the government to sit back and look at the infrastructure its got.....

Ask Mary O'Rourke, it was her idea. It is a stillborn idea (for many) with no LLU on the horizon for another year and without a plan to host outside/nearby Eircom exchanges witha carrier neutral apporach. Almost everywhere with a MAN will also have DSL which costs less to provision because the CPE is cheaper and less costly to install. Ideally the MAN's would be hooked into LLU?DSL combinations at a low cost. Lts see what and who this MSE is , the organisation who will run the MANs and set prices for drops. We should know the 'who ' shortly.

M

wexfordman

Muck,

Not sure about the price comparison you are giving depending on length of hop, however the sums are still small. 150K (which is on the heavy side) for hop of 60kms is not much when you compare it to digging even 30k of fibre ring. On top of that you've still got hardare costs for the end fo the fibre/muxes etc, whereas 150k will pretty much get you there on a hop.

Anyway, I see from what you are saying that there are many "politcal" red tape issues with regards to getting some form of strategy together.

Hopwever, my point is still the same, I dont see how any of the red tape is insurmaountable. The technical issues are certainly not. You have existing networks, the companies that own them are semi state, and yet the gov seems to prefer to pump millions more into buriny fibre in the ground, rather than some for of subsidy/incentive/push or even threat to the companies that we own, to get together to provide the facilities to allow rapid rollout of wireless broadband.

Look at digiweb for example. If they had the network capacity for a backbone, and the offer of an antenna location on a rural ESB mast which would cover Youghal town for example, do you think they would take it ? If they would'nt someone else would. There is as it happens an ESB SDH mast just outside of Youghal. A 2M pipe from there to Dublin cound be set up in a matter of minutes....... If the willingness was there.

On the point of ESB not interested in a 512k link, I'm not sure I agree. If they they already have the network sitting there, why not sell the capacity, stimulate demand and sell 100 512k's. Eircom would bite your hand off if you wanted a 512k leased line, what makes the ESB any different.

Waht I'm saying, is that the state we are in, is a bit like drowning in a shallow pond, when all you have to do is get off your knees.
wexfordman

Dangger

Eircom would bite your hand off if you wanted a 512k leased line, what makes the ESB any different.

There genuiely does not appear to be a will within ESB to diversify into this area. They are pre-occupied with prettying themselves up for privatisiation against the wishes of the Minister and view that as their end game.

Pitching in on the broadband deficit should benefit them ultimately but it appears they are content with having the capcity and not selling it at this stage.

They had to be pushed into the power line trials and no one would be advised to hold their breath on them announcing its to be green lit throughout the country.

It appears to be off the radar of current management. Are there many customers on their North and South Rings (perhaps one is still incomplete - I'm not sure)? Are they still only selling large chunks instead of smaller more accessible 2mb chunks?

spongebob

Thanks for your insight. Many in here had considered the ESB fibre as useful (it GOES somewhere) but had not considered the existing Wireless LOS SDH network out to the Towers themselves......the same towers being a good spot to sling up a Base Station and Sectoral Antennae while one is at it.

It would be instructive to see what happens if a stack of people ring up (THIS WEEK LADS) looking for 2Mbit from their location to Dublin and 23u of rackspace in the shed below !

If the ESB demur on a large scale then an amendment or two to the Critical Infrastructure Bill may be required?.

M

wexfordman

I'm sorry guys, maybe I'm looking at this from the wrong angle.

If eircom was still in state hands, there would probably be a big push to roll out broadband. So its, not, so the state goes about building a new network!!!!!

It just seems a little odd to me that I am served by Chorus mmds, which goes back to a mountaintop just above youghal (the sign name relates to my roots, not my present abode by the way). Anyway on this mountaintop are several masts. 1 for chorus (we wont even discuss them any further), 1 belonging to the ESB, An RTE Mast, and I think a mobile operator is on it also.The ESB have 155MB capacity into this mast which routes back to Dublin. In fact, you can route from Youghal to Dublin in just 5 SDH hops (its been done already), each of these hops being a point where you can drop off pipes with great ease to serve other local masts, houses, cities, towns etc. You can get to wexford town in 3 hops, Limerick city in 2 etc etc etc....

With a bit of co-ordination, using existing publicly owned resources, and spending a lot less money, it could be done. You already have a wireless backbone network going through every major city in the country.

The recent announcement that the gov were going to look at public access points next to eircom exchanges was a good idea, but why not go a step further. Apply for planning in large towns, and rural areas for masts, owned publicly for the use of broadband infrastructure. Sign a deal with the ESB for access to their backbone throughout the country, link these masts back to ESB backbone. Then lease space on these masts for small operators to install wirelss broadband cells. This way, they not only have the physical infrastucture, but access back into a good backbone also.
Never mind planning, every town and village in Ireland has a Garda mast, most with LOS that can be utilised to get back to some backbone somewhere. There is ALWAYS a method to link masts together wirelessly, thats why there are thousands of mobile masts around the country, and most of these would eventually link back to similar points of access as ESB masts etc.

I get your point about the esb not being interested in one off 2Mb links for individuals/small operators, but like I said above, if one organasiation (the gov) signed a deal with the ESB for several access points on their infrastrucure, then its a good commercial move for the ESB.

One mast in a town like Youghal, Portarlington, Wexford etc would give good LOS for wireless broadband for 90% of the town. Thats a hell of a lot cheaper and quicker than running a ring of fibre. And anyway I bet once you started something like that rolling out, Eircom would move into higher gear.

Just a thought, I know there are a lot of niggly bits, but the basics are there.
wexfordman

spongebob

Originally posted by wexfordman
Apply for planning in large towns, and rural areas for masts, owned publicly for the use of broadband infrastructure.

That alone is the key. A raft of planning applications will have Eircom in a tizzy.

(Pm sent)

M

iwb

I can confirm that ESB is uninterested in dealing with even a 2Mb request as we got a 'thanks for your interest' from them a few months back. I was responding to the competition for funding for three towns in the BMW regions.
To be honest, I think we pitched it well to them, but they weren't in the least interested. One guy there thought it was crazy that we only wanted such a small bandwidth for backhaul to a whole two towns! Muck is probably right that they couldn't be bothered for the small business, or it is not cost effective.
Now, to wade into the debate a little. I really don't agree with either of you on this wireless backhaul notion. At least not to the degree that you would use it. It is too short term and real money would have to be spent to be able to use it effectively imho.
ESB will sell 34Mb to anyone and will drop it off in chunks at any of the locations on its network for a one off, per location charge. This means that a proper demand aggregation exercise can be looked at and it has future upgradeability built in for very little or no extra capital cost.
Take a look at their map, ESB cover a large area of the country with the fibre network. You might also find that if you were a customer (one of the few?) on this network, that they would be very cooperative on the towerco side for rural delivery, past the rings.
Now, how difficult would it be to use 34Mb in total over the whole network?

wexfordman

IWB,

Interesting about the 34Mb statement. Basically, the ESB are not interested in someone looking for one 2Mb carrier, but they would be interested in someone looking for a combined capacity of 34Mb's, spread around different locations in the country ?

Thats more or less what I am talking about in my previous post, although I have no idea about what it takes to get teh ESB interested. Also, I agree, that the ESB towerco, would be happy to lease space on their infrastructure for broadband providers, as they do to mobile operators.

Just on a note on wireless backbone, it is actually extremely reliable, and easy/qucik to rollout when compared to fibre rollout. As I said its been used for years as backbone for major wirelsss operators across the world, and weather factors can be engineered into the reliability of the link.

Anyway, if you say the ESB would be interested in someone looking for a spread of 34Mb capacity, how about this then for a governemtn rollout strategy?-
1) Governemt sets up a national wirells broadband rollout program
2) Negotiates provision of 34MB capacity (to start off with), split around the country into 2MB pipes at esb hubs (fibre and radio hubs).
3) Negotiates co-location on ESB/RTE masts in regional areas/towns, and provides a transmission link (radio) from this point abck to the ESB hub.
4) Leases out the transmission backbone it has just established to the regions to wireless operators for the provision of broadband services.
5) in areas where no rte/esb/garda masts are available, use council owned facilities/watertowers/ private masts, or apply for planning to provide one.

Well ?
wexfordman

iwb

Absolutely. Why nobody has done anything in this regard yet is beyond me.
I guess IrishBroadband are going out to a few cities as was reported in the newspapers and I would assume that they will use ESB and Aurora to get back to the centre of the universe.
We were somewhat disappointed by the lack of interest in the BMW regions for our proposal to get three towns live and go from there with a plan to bring on new towns as we could. I really think there is huge inertia within local and national government when it comes to anything beyond that which is well established. I hope to help in changing that.
BTW, I am from New Ross, so a fellow Wexfordman.

wexfordman

IWB,

Not only that, but how much cheaper would an option like this cost, as opposed to running miles of ribre rings around "designated" towns, and still having no last mile access ?
wexfordman

spongebob

Mind you we have more chance of seeing Phil Nolan and Bill Murphy in amicable and learned discourse in here than we have of getting a lists of who is who and what is what in ESB telecoms.

There is a Fiberco and a Towerco within ESB Telecom but there is another group responsible for Carrier relationships as well...whatever they are known as.

M

azi

Originally posted by dahamsta
One suggestion that was mooted at the LLU Forum was portacabins in the car parks...

adam

Hmm. How come you know this? AFAIR, you weren't there when I made that suggestion ;-)
It was in response to Eircom's statement that they had no room in most exchanges, btw.
ODTR (this was in 2000/1) were not uninterested in the concept. Some space was found then, as it seems...

azi.