Is it wrong for Irishmen and women to join foreign Armed Forces!

The thing

What is your opinion on Irish nationals joining foreign Armed Forces?

bonkey

Please read the rules. You're expected to offer your own opinion when starting a thread. Please do so.

jc

The thing

Well in that case then my answer would have to be yes I do agree that Irishmen and women joining other nations Armed Forces is completly right, as I myself am soon to join the British Armed Forces next year.
Having served my native country Ireland both with the Defence Forces and Reserve Defence Forces I can honestly say that I was and still am very dissapointed with the backwardness of the two services which is directly due to the Irish people and government.
It seems to me that Irish people have neither respect or pride in their country's Defence Arms so much so that most people do not even know that we have a Naval Service or Air Corps!
I cannot see why anyone would wish to slate anyone who wished to join the British Armed Forces when our own country cannot even provide basic equipment to defend our troops, sailors and airmen.
We have an almost non functional Air Corps that is totally ill equipped even for such basic missions as search and rescue and air ambulance.
Our Naval service lacks even a logistic ship and is well below required minimun strength both in vessels and people numbers.
Our Army is so thinly equipped with modern APC's and anti armour weapons that it is almost a non starter sending them on UN Peace Keeping and enforcement missions.
Once again Ireland will be the laughing stock of the EU when the ERRF is up and running with our lack of logistics and resupply capabilities.
I for one will be honoured and proud to take Queens oath and become a soldier of the crown

SkepticOne

Originally posted by The thing
I for one will be honoured and proud to take Queens oath and become a soldier of the crown

Good for you, but how will that help the Irish armed forces?

Boston

what the hell do yo uexpect form a neutral goverment. Some people have better priorities then the military. I'm glad the army is in the state it is, in the eventuallity of war few irish will die for foreign causes. if our lack of apcs or what ever means that irish troops won't be sent to impose americas will on the world then i'm for it. WE don't need an armed force, it wasnt marching an army onto a battle field that freed this country and it wont be an army on a battle field that will keep it that way.

As for your joining the british army, I'm in no way an IRA supporter or anythign of that sort but it is a fact that the british army has murder irish people, has helped others to murder innocent people in ireland, and has right up to this day protected murderers of irish people. Join what ever you want, but you join the british army your british. Nothing against the british people Btw

Hobart

Originally posted by The thing
Well in that case then my answer would have to be yes I do agree that Irishmen and women joining other nations Armed Forces is completly right, as I myself am soon to join the British Armed Forces next year.

Congratulations. I hope it goes well for you.

Having served my native country Ireland both with the Defence Forces and Reserve Defence Forces I can honestly say that I was and still am very dissapointed with the backwardness of the two services which is directly due to the Irish people and government.

Why is it directly due to the Irish People? What would you do to remedy the situation?

It seems to me that Irish people have neither respect or pride in their country's Defence Arms so much so that most people do not even know that we have a Naval Service or Air Corps!

Really? How do you know this?

I cannot see why anyone would wish to slate anyone who wished to join the British Armed Forces when our own country cannot even provide basic equipment to defend our troops, sailors and airmen.

Why do you connect the 2 together? Are you a career soldier? If so would it not have been of benefit to you to have done an analysis of the Irish Army before you wasted your time, and our money, in the Irish Defence Forces? Would you use this as an example of how we shoyuld all behave when things are not how we like it? Or would your energies not have bbeen better spent trying to improvve the situation and not moaning and/or slagging it off?

Our Naval service lacks even a logistic ship and is well below required minimun strength both in vessels and people numbers.

Minimum strenght for what?

Our Army is so thinly equipped with modern APC's and anti armour weapons that it is almost a non starter sending them on UN Peace Keeping and enforcement missions.

My understanding is that it is the UN who provide the equipment for these missions (when needed). Correct me if I am wrong.

I for one will be honoured and proud to take Queens oath and become a soldier of the crown

I am also honoured and proud for you. Well done.

Boston

Have to say hobart i've no pride in the armed forces. No far to many irish soldiers and members of the fca (?)

ringzer

It seems to me that Irish people have neither respect or pride in their country's Defence Arms so much so that most people do not even know that we have a Naval Service or Air Corps!

Exactly as someone else said, how do you know this? I know we have one. I visited the LE Eithne on the day of my confirmation way way back. We only need a navy to patrol the waters and check up on fishermen, not very much else. Theres no need to have a full strength army, navy or air corps. Thats generally what a neutral country does - has a small army. If we did get invaded, no amount of apcs would help us. We'd get killed, literally!

And I cant let you get away with slating the Oglaigh na hEireann. I'm not a member, nor my dad or any relation, but I do have a sense of national pride. The Irish Rangers, the special forces are pretty damm good, from what I've heard. I have a friend in the FCA, quite high up and he tells me that the Rangers are excellent. I knew this anyway, but he confirmed this to me. I know they cant compete with the SAS or the SEALS, but they do train with special forces around the world and are good at what they do. Now I do think that many people havent heard of them, mainly because they're the special forces, but people have heard of our navy and air corps! I'm assuming they've heard of our army too!

Good luck, by the way. You wont be the first to do what you've done. Some ignorant people will have a distinct dislike for you because of what you're doing, but I wish you the best.

Boston

Originally posted by ringzer
Some ignorant people will have a distinct dislike for you because of what you're doing, but I wish you the best.

wonders if thats directed at me? Anywho Yes the irish rangers are highly reguarded. they are considered the best at what they do, which i think is manly mountain combat and combat suited the the IRISH terrain.

ArphaRima

I came very close to doing exactly as you are about to. I studied the Irish Army, Navy and Air Corps, disliked what I saw, and studied foreign armed forces as an alternative.

The British Army have a long tradition of Irish soldiers in their midst.

http://www.chapter-one.com/vc/nat.asp
http://www.army.mod.uk/irishguards/vc.htm

The Irish are second only to the English in number of awards of the Victorian Cross. (above scotland and wales and commonwealth cos.)

I was interested in joining the RAF.
Applied to the Irish Air Corps.
Applied to Aer Lingus. Got Aer Lingus. Never applied to the RAF.

The choice comes down to career; do you want to spend 20 years in the Irish defence forces or the British Armed forces?
One is well paid, respected, trained and utlised. (e.g. one has cessnas the other has eurofighters)

At the same time, I hated the way Ireland forced me to move. We have no army. In the traditional sense anyway. No point training to be a soldier if you never get to use your training in my eyes. But Ireland has no need for one. It is selfish of someone to say we need a modern mechanised army just so we can join something shiny and new to be proud of... Coast guard and civilian transport contracts could fill its entire "raison de etre".

The Oath is a formality. A painful one. I did have a hard time thinking of whether I could do it. Still havent decided. But I think I would probably do it, with an everlasting unreasonable guilt.

Meh

Originally posted by The thing
I cannot see why anyone would wish to slate anyone who wished to join the British Armed Forces when our own country cannot even provide basic equipment to defend our troops, sailors and airmen.

Defend them from what exactly? Is there a war going on that I haven't been told about? Have the Welsh invaded again?

Our Army is so thinly equipped with modern APC's and anti armour weapons that it is almost a non starter sending them on UN Peace Keeping and enforcement missions.

How many UN peace-keeping missions require anti-armour weapons?

Once again Ireland will be the laughing stock of the EU when the ERRF is up and running with our lack of logistics and resupply capabilities.

On the contrary, we (or at least I) will be the ones laughing at the other countries spending hundreds of billions on defense to protect us. Suckers!

ringzer

Originally posted by Boston
wonders if thats directed at me? Anywho Yes the irish rangers are highly reguarded. they are considered the best at what they do, which i think is manly mountain combat and combat suited the the IRISH terrain.

No, I didnt mean to direct that comment at you. It only occured to me that it may seem that way when you mentioned it. I'm referring to the tri-colour flying, celtic supporting, uneducated "republican" who cant get their head around anything British. These people will totally ignore any realistic facts, eg a chance to train and be a part of one of the worlds largest armies. You know the type I'm on about. The type that sing the Fields of Athenry when they're hammered on a Saturday night.

I will correct you on your IRISH Terrain comment though. The Rangers most notable deployment was in East Timor about 2 years ago. Pretty good if you ask me considering we have an "understrength" army and are a small neutral country and a non member of NATO.

Vader

what do we need an army to defend us from? we have no imperial agenda oversees and cant even stop evil opressors and dictators on this island let alone leading an international liberation army! If reunification ever takes place however we will need defence forces weel equiped and well trained. In such an event we'll have to rely on The Army before we rely on the army:ninja:

Lennoxschips

I think armed forces are wrong.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Boston
what the hell do yo uexpect form a neutral goverment.

Why don’t you ask either the Swedes or Swiss? Both have modern, well-trained militaries. Both even have arms industries. And, if recent US flyovers are anything to go by, both are more Neutral than Ireland. Kind of blows that theory of yours out of the water.

Ireland has a weak military. Even for our size and neutral policy we have a weak military. Even our intelligence services are embarrassingly dependant on the intelligence handouts of other nations. Simple as that.

So if one wants a military career, then joining the military of a foreign nation is often one’s only alternative.

Originally posted by Meh
How many UN peace-keeping missions require anti-armour weapons?

Iraq probably will :rolleyes:

On the contrary, we (or at least I) will be the ones laughing at the other countries spending hundreds of billions on defense to protect us. Suckers!

That was much of Europe’s attitude towards the US during the Cold War. As a result, the US is so more powerful militarily today than anyone else that is has been able to carry out unilateral military action whether Europe likes it or not.

So what you’re suggesting is a dangerous strategy to take in the long run as it relies upon the trusting those foreign countries that would protect us.

Originally posted by Vader
In such an event we'll have to rely on The Army before we rely on the army:ninja:

Probably the best argument for the Irish State having a strong military.

Qadhafi

It should be said that things have improved with the Irish Defence Force(DF) in the last number of years. After the white paper in Defence there was more money spent on the DF in recent years and the army has more modern equipment than it had since the '70s

In saying that, the DF is still lacking a lot of equipment. Like everything else in Ireland, it has been underfunded for years. One may ask, why do we even bother with a DF? its not like were ever going to need one. Personally I think thats the wrong conclusion to come to.

Firstly we can make a difference in the world. Sending Irish troops abroad does make a real and tangible difference. Its up to the Government to decide how to use these troops and sadly to anyone who has served in the DF knows, the government hasnt a clue when it comes to the DF. Ask what the people of South Lebanon think of the Irish Defence Force, its held in very high regard.

I know what the Thing means when he says that Irish people are ignorant of what the DF does. Remember it was the PDF who manned the checkpoints on the BSE crises at minimal extra cost, it was the RDF (Reserve Defence Force, formally know as FCA) which ran a large portion of the Special olympics. There is tons of stuff the DF does. People just cant think of any of it.

Reading some of the posts, I realise how ignorant some of the people here are, 'what do we need a DF for','were not going to be invaded by anyone!'

Typical Irish mentality is to shy away from facing up to reality of what it is to be a Nation. We sent troops to the Lebannon and complained that they werent making a profit! (back when the UN paid for us, and paid for the rental of equipment that we wouldnt buy!).

The E.U made ireland grow up in many ways and one such example is defence. We cant freeload anymore, we arnt going to get paid to send our troop abroad.

We signed up to PFP and comitted 650 troops (out of a total of 60,000!) well at least we did something. Read the article Aindriú posted on "irish troops to Iraq" by the former chief of Staff on the minimalist approach taken to foreign policy. Its near the end. Look at other neutral countries and see what they spend on defence and how they pursue their foreign policy even though they are neutral and small.

As to the thing wanting to join the Brits, well good luck to him and enjoy his career. I cant see anyone having a problem with joining the British Army, well perhaps those provos.

What do I think of Ireland and the DF? Some great people in the DF, a shame that we dont have much career options for them. Ireland is still acts like a banana republic for a western european country and the public dont give a toss about foreign policy or Defence matters.

Ireland inc. still a bad joke

Borzoi

Originally posted by The thing
What is your opinion on Irish nationals joining foreign Armed Forces?

To go back to the point (rather than discussing the state of the Irish armed forces)

I've dual citizenship, both Irish and USA, and I can say categorically that were I to join the Irish army (or FCA) I would be stripped on my US citizenship. Why? because I'd be swearing an oath to a foreign power.

Now this is something that I fully understand, afterall, if you're are under orders, you cannot serve two masters*

So while I've no problem with anybody joining any army they like, expecting to be able to serve and then return to Ireland, having sworn an oath to a foreign power (whomever) is disrespect both to the country you've served and Ireland.



*spies and other double agents excepted

Having served my native country Ireland both with the Defence Forces and Reserve Defence Forces I can honestly say that I was and still am very dissapointed with the backwardness of the two services which is directly due to the Irish people and government

Just curious, but is this a career decision to join a foreign military? I mean, while i agree if you wish to be part of some military force, and to receive a wage appropiate to your rank, a foreign army would probably be best.

However, i feel that if you have an interest in the security of your country, then the Irish army no matter how under equipped should be the answer.

One thing to point out. Considering that Ireland doesn't have the budget to compete with most nations military, general purpose troops would generally be better trained, rather than reliant on technology...

Qadhafi

Quote

To go back to the point (rather than discussing the state of the Irish armed forces)
end quote

maybe its the crap state of the DF that has people leaving to serve in other armed forces?

SkepticOne

I think The Thing will have a much better military career in the better equiped British Army if that is his priority.

He has already resolved the conflict in his own head of swearing alegience to a nation other than his own. As such, I doubt if he is motivated by the idea of 'serving one's country'. That is his right, imo, though.

Hobart

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Why don’t you ask either the Swedes or Swiss? Both have modern, well-trained militaries. Both even have arms industries. And, if recent US flyovers are anything to go by, both are more Neutral than Ireland. Kind of blows that theory of yours out of the water.

Why does it? What have the arms industries and the militaries of a different country got to do with ours? Our Armed Forces are well traine, BTW. I have a brother in the Calvary, has been for the last 16-17 years, and his experience is of a well trained, high morale group.

Ireland has a weak military. Even for our size and neutral policy we have a weak military. Even our intelligence services are embarrassingly dependant on the intelligence handouts of other nations. Simple as that.

How do you define weak? What is weak about the armed forces? Surely our intelligence sources would come under direct government control, as with most democratic nations, and would have very little to do with the Armed Forces? Why do we need a strong intelligence force in the first place?

So if one wants a military career, then joining the military of a foreign nation is often one’s only alternative.

It's an option. But not the only choice.

Iraq probably will :rolleyes:

Do you have some inside information on the UN and Iraq? Maybe you are part of this intelligence brigade you seem to know so much about :rolleyes:

That was much of Europe’s attitude towards the US during the Cold War. As a result, the US is so more powerful militarily today than anyone else that is has been able to carry out unilateral military action whether Europe likes it or not.

and failed in most of it's campaigns since the cold war. Hardly an example of military might. :rolleyes: And the reason the US was @allowed@ to disregard European opinion was 2 fold:

1) Because of the backing of the UK
2) Because most sane people don't want to start world war 3 (Between the US and Europe)

Cabaal

Originally posted by The thing
I for one will be honoured and proud to take Queens oath and become a soldier of the crown

I'm glad Ireland is the way it is when it comes to military, there's no need to spend mad amounts of money on it.

As for joing upto the UK and basically taking the queens oath, come on you might as well move to england and call yourself english from the moment you do it!

I do not believe any self respecting Irish man/women would swear a oath to the Queen of england imho.

The Beer Baron

As for joing upto the UK and basically taking the queens oath, come on you might as well move to england and call yourself english from the moment you do it!
I do not believe any self respecting Irish man/women would swear a oath to the Queen of england imho.

While I certainly recognise and admire the contribution that Irish people to the British Army in both World Wars I'm afriad I'll have to go with Cabaal on this one.
From that point on consider yourself an Irish-born British citizen.
Which means not only are you turning your back on Ireland, your culture your heritige et all, but you will no longer be allowed to protect *your* country. From that moment on be protecting British interests.

Sidesteping "The Troubles" because it's a Pandoras box and (I'm also from the ROI and neither a Republican nor a Nationalist) I thought I might mention the British Army's latest conflict- that in Iraq. You may well find yourself there yourself, or someplace like it. By joining the British Army you will be submitting your mind, your body and your soul to their agenda- not to mention your life. Are you really prepared to die for them? Are you prepared to offer your life up for a country that has not only been responsible for 800 years of misery to your own people, but to countless other countries. To defend a treacherous empire of avarice and hipocracy- and become, not just but a soldier of the crown, but a lackey of America's industrial interests?

Do you wish to die so that some fat bastard can fill his Chevorlet with premium? Or are you just tetchy (thanks for that word Cult)
because the Irish Defence Forces don't afford you enough toys to blow **** up?

A quick note on the state of Irish defence. Granted, the Irish "navy" and our Air Corps are quite lacking.
The Air Corps is a rather half-assed affair, and I did find it somewhat embarrasing in the 911 aftermath when we had to depend on the RAF to patrol our airspace (although I hardly think the RAF is going to be the one to protect us from a Sellafield disaster)

Still how can you speak ill of our sea rescue operation, is it fair to insult the organisation without first considering the tireless and often quite dangerous work of some of the people who risk their lives to save others? I find their work infinatly more noble than securing a few oil wells for the Stetson Illuminati.

As for our soldiers, they are well trained. Our UN pedegree, despite what others say is quite good. As many have said, our boys in the Leb done us proud. Plus most experts from other countries agree, the Army Rangers are some of the best-trained soldiers there is- and their arsenal is modern, in both aspects they're on par with that of the SAS or anyone you care to mention.

I honestly feel that Ireland could do more for its armed forces, but we cannot really afford much more- our infrastructure, education system, health care, roads, our whole economy is certainly more of a priority than protecting us from- well, from who? Who exactly is our threat again?

I mean, sure if you're all for buying a few Migs and changing the Air Core to an Air Force, if you're all for "modernising" the defence forces and buying aircraft carriers for the Navy- well why not arm every Garda in the country - c'mon, I've a euro in my pocket here I'll plant it and grow a money tree- if everyone in the country does this we'll be able to afford the Celtic Strategic Defence Initiative by 2070.

Or would you rather we raised taxes even higher maybe?
Or become a major arms manufacturer- how's this sound the Murphy and McCarthy MMC-25 sub machine gun- got you salivating yet?
Or hey- do what Russia does and have our prison inmates building tanks?

There's a number of reasons Ireland doesn't have a large defence budget. See if you can think of a few...

ringzer

I agree with The Beer Baron. Nicely put Beer!

Victor

I think the reason a lot of Irish people join the British, American of French militaries is so they can have a realistic chance of shooting at someone. It's about being a soldier, so siding with any country per se. Many of the French Foreign legion soldiers in Bosnia were non-Serbian Yugoslavs.

I do not believe any self respecting Irish man/women would swear a oath to the Queen of england

Cabaal, is this such a big issue anymore? I mean if you're willing to leave Ireland to join Britains defense (offense) forces, then i'm sure you'd be willing to swear an oath to Britain.

I was raised with the anti-british lore, but to be honest i don't have any feelings for them anymore. Personally i wouldn't swear, but thats because i'm proud to be Irish. But if you need to leave, i don't see any problem with it.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Hobart
Why does it? What have the arms industries and the militaries of a different country got to do with ours?

Boston’s point was that Ireland’s comparatively weak military was due to it’s policy of neutrality. As I pointed out with Sweden and Switzerland, who take their military far more seriously, this is an erroneous assertion as they too are neutral - actually more neutral, for that matter, than us.

Our Armed Forces are well traine, BTW. I have a brother in the Calvary, has been for the last 16-17 years, and his experience is of a well trained, high morale group.

No offence to your brother, but cavalry does not sound like a modern combat force and I doubt if the Irish cavalry is mechanized. We’re not discussing ceremonial military. Otherwise we could equally argue that the Vatican has well-trained, high morale troops.

How do you define weak? What is weak about the armed forces?

Ireland cannot defend itself militarily against a foreign aggressor, regardless of whether one exists or not.

Surely our intelligence sources would come under direct government control, as with most democratic nations, and would have very little to do with the Armed Forces? Why do we need a strong intelligence force in the first place?

Of course, but by the same logic so does the military come under direct government control, as with most democratic nations. Also, military intelligence is an essential component to any military strategy - read your Sun Tzu.

It's an option. But not the only choice.

That’s why I qualified my statement with the word often.

Do you have some inside information on the UN and Iraq? Maybe you are part of this intelligence brigade you seem to know so much about :rolleyes:

No, I wasn’t being serious, hence the ‘:rolleyes:’.

and failed in most of it's campaigns since the cold war. Hardly an example of military might. :rolleyes:

Irrelevant. Whether it has been successful or not has not deterred it from carrying out unilateral military action.

And the reason the US was @allowed@ to disregard European opinion was 2 fold:

1) Because of the backing of the UK

Actually, the UK’s political backing was of dubious benefit in hindsight to the US, as it was the UK that pressed them to attempt the disastrous multilateral route. As for military backing, the US didn’t feel it needed the UK at the time.

2) Because most sane people don't want to start world war 3 (Between the US and Europe)

That’s a bit exaggerated. What’s your evidence that that was going to happen?

gurramok

There are plenty of other armies in the world to join beside the British one

Also I wouldnt think it would be safe for your family and friends at home for security if the so-called troubles flare up again like it did before, its a higher risk than lets say joining the French legion(:

There are also plenty of career options out there besides the military. Going to join a foreign army is a bit extreme unless you are one of those types that wants to be in action alot.

Signing up to be a soldier of the bigger armies means you are at mercy of the governments policy of the day. (ie Iraq\who next)

As far as i'm concerned, i have no sympathy with any soldier from any nation dying for a cause other than the defence of their home country !

Hobart

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Boston’s point was that Ireland’s comparatively weak military was due to it’s policy of neutrality. As I pointed out with Sweden and Switzerland, who take their military far more seriously, this is an erroneous assertion as they too are neutral - actually more neutral, for that matter, than us.

Well maybe I missed that erroneous assertion but I believe he was asking why we, as a neutral country have the need for a strong military. The fact that other neutral countries have a strong military is beside the point.

No offence to your brother, but cavalry does not sound like a modern combat force and I doubt if the Irish cavalry is mechanized.

No Offence taken at all. In fact they are a mechanised modern combat force. With a number of ront line combat responsibilities, based in Cathal Bruagha barracks in Rathmines.

We’re not discussing ceremonial military.

I understand that. I was not referring to ceramonial militia.

Otherwise we could equally argue that the Vatican has well-trained, high morale troops.

I believe my previous comment negates the above quote.

Ireland cannot defend itself militarily against a foreign aggressor, regardless of whether one exists or not.

Where's your evidence for this?

Of course, but by the same logic so does the military come under direct government control, as with most democratic nations. Also, military intelligence is an essential component to any military strategy - read your Sun Tzu.

That does not answer my question. Stop avoiding the point.

No, I wasn’t being serious, hence the ‘:rolleyes:’.

Neither was I. Hence the rolleyes

Irrelevant. Whether it has been successful or not has not deterred it from carrying out unilateral military action.

In what context? Your statement was to the effect that the US had a Powerful military. The fact that they have 'lost' as opposed to 'won' most conflicts they have taken part in sincce the cold war would suggest that their military is not all that powerful. Or do you have a different definition of what powerful means?

Actually, the UK’s political backing was of dubious benefit in hindsight to the US, as it was the UK that pressed them to attempt the disastrous multilateral route. As for military backing, the US didn’t feel it needed the UK at the time.

I did not say that the backing was relevant to the military campaign. I just stated that the fact that the British did back them was one of the reasons the US had a 'Free Hand' in it's 'military' campaigns' over the last few years.

That’s a bit exaggerated. What’s your evidence that that was going to happen?

Lol. I merely coming to the logical conclusion that if Europe opposed the USA militarily. It would be tantamount to a World War. Hence their attitude.

Boston

Originally posted by ringzer
I will correct you on your IRISH Terrain comment though. The Rangers most notable deployment was in East Timor about 2 years ago. Pretty good if you ask me considering we have an "understrength" army and are a small neutral country and a non member of NATO.

I thought their most notable deployment was in training british and american soldiers for the D-day landing at normandy. where the terrian is much like ireland.

Victor

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Boston’s point was that Ireland’s comparatively weak military was due to it’s policy of neutrality. As I pointed out with Sweden and Switzerland, who take their military far more seriously

There is also the matter that we are an island. That is not to say that our defence should not be taken as lightly as it is.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
No offence to your brother, but cavalry does not sound like a modern combat force and I doubt if the Irish cavalry is mechanized.

Cavalry in the modern sense means highly mobile offensive forces. In many armies this means tanks. In the Irish context it mean armoured cars (AML90 & AML20) and tracked reconnaissance vehicles (Scorpion). Behind such forces you have mechanized infantry in armoured personnel carriers - in our case mostly Panhard M3s (being phased out) and MOWAG Piranha III. See here http://www.irishmilitaryonline.com/army/vehicles.shtml

Originally posted by The Corinthian
We’re not discussing ceremonial military. Otherwise we could equally argue that the Vatican has well-trained, high morale troops.

They are for the most part and are much more than ceremonial.

Originally posted by Boston
I thought their most notable deployment was in training british and american soldiers for the D-day landing at normandy. where the terrian is much like ireland.

Nice troll. The Army Ranger Wing wasn't formed until 30 years after D-Day.

http://www.military.ie/army/arw_history.htm

Boston

wasn't actually a troll, i thought it was the army rangers, must have been their predesesors. Three irish men where nominated for the highest american military honors for their assitance. But dev blocked it to protect our neutrality

Victor

Originally posted by Boston
wasn't actually a troll, i thought it was the army rangers, must have been their predesesors. Three irish men where nominated for the highest american military honors for their assitance. But dev blocked it to protect our neutrality

Perhaps you are confusing members of the American and Irish armed forces?

Vader

we have like 40 companies in the arms industry and are intelligence is better than you might think. since 1998 the gardi have infiltrated 96% of IRA units

MOS

How the **** do u know that???????

Qadhafi

I can understand why the thing wants to serve in a proper army. The equipment is improving all the time, but it’s the governments that’s holding the DF back and I don’t know why, were on the same side as the US and UK.

After the Second World War the DF said it wanted modern fighters from the UK, since we were neutral during the war they said no. The Americans offered us ALL the fighters we wanted FOR FREE !! Guess what? We refused.

There was a contract out for 5 new medium lift helicopters recently. Sikorsky offered S-92 and offset the deal with €100 in business to Ireland. So we cancelled the deal due to budget constraints. The other 2 companies were complaining about the late offset but would have probably offered us something similar if we re-ran the competition.

As a friendly nation we would get military hardware at next to nothing prices. Why do we have to rely on the RAF (Royal Air Force) to patrol our sky’s?

Take a helicopter S-92, worth what €25million and will be still flying in 25 years time, a bargin! Buy it? No we rent heli’s for twice the price.

I know anyone who leaves the Irish Defence Force is probably due to 2 reasons:
Crap equipement
and a political establishment that doesnt know how to utilise the DF.

So what if you have to take the Oath, its just a silly text. Your still irish!

Irish Army Ranger Wing come 3rd

sceptre

Originally posted by Cabaal
I do not believe any self respecting Irish man/women would swear a oath to the Queen of england imho.

Are you aware of how many years after Irish independence the oath of allegiance to the British monarch was in place for all sitting TDs?

The queen is the titular head of state in the UK. That's about it really.

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Vader
we have like 40 companies in the arms industry

Are you sure about that?

There were a few pants-wetting articles recently about how much 'dual-use' equipment is made here in our hi-tech sector. But if you look at the list of items categorised as such you realise that they probably include the computer you're using to post here, your mobile phone and your playstation among others.

Try taking a knitting needle on to an aeroplane nowadays and you'll quickly see how broadly the definition of 'dual use' is being interpreted. But you'd be hard pushed to call a knitting-needle manufacturer part of an indigenous arms industry.

Back on topic. Speaking as variously the grandson, great grandson and great nephew of seven men (that I know of) who fought in the British Army in either of the World Wars—five of whom died as a consequence—I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes. But he should hand back his original passport before he does so and should become responsible for the actions of the army he joins.

So if some Indian comes up and punches you in the face and says 'That's for the Amritsar massacre, you bastard!' remember, you're the bad guy.

Must be nearly the time to start the 'Would you wear a poppy?' debate for this year. November 11th approaches.

Turnip

The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles and we're aware from our history that guerrilla warfare is the best form of defence. I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training, small semi-autonomous units, sniping, endurance, armoured vehicle demolition, everyone trained to be able to take command etc. Stuff we'd need in the (unlikely) event of an invasion but which would also be useful for instilling discipline, self-confidence and assertiveness in young people. But not drill. Drill is boring and pretty useless these days. Tom Barry's, General Giap's and Che Guevara's books on guerrilla warfare should be studied. I bet the Iraqis have studied Giap fairly well.

Theres no real need for a large well equipped standing army. Britain wouldn't allow an invasion of Ireland, since it has too much strategic value to them to have a semi-neutral county beside them.

And if it was Britain, then the Irish groups in the US, would likely force Britain out.

Ireland won't be invaded by anyone. We only need our army, for anti-terrorist actions, bodyguard duties, and extra manpower for policing / anti-rioting.

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip
The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles

How do you know that?

but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles[

How do you know that? What would you know about the Peace Keeping roles the the Irish DF have(and still do) participated in and why are they so "well suited" as you say?

. I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training,

I presume your either messing, trolling or that you have no concept of what SAS training involves.:rolleyes:

the_syco

Originally posted by The thing
Once again Ireland will be the laughing stock of the EU when the ERRF is up and running with our lack of logistics and resupply capabilities.

It could be worse. We could be as bad as Britain. Britain who had faulty radio's, faulty weapons, fer gods sake, even the british career soldiers were unhappy with the carry-on.
Quote;

Tales of faulty equipment hampering troops' ability to do their job in warzones such as Afghanistan and Kosovo have added to the pressure.
The army's new SA80-A2 rifle, used by British forces in Afghanistan although they barely fired a shot, is reported to have suffered misfiring problems. Its predecessor was withdrawn after similar jamming problems. A leaked military report on the Kosovo campaign said the old Clansman radio system was so insecure that Serb forces and even the media were able to listen in to British army communications.

This was ongoing in Kosovo, Afganistein, and took a few lives before it got sorted.

=====
=====
The Irish Defence Forces Army Ranger Wing (ARW);

As part of the ongoing training the Unit conducts interchanges with Special Forces and Intervention Groups among which are The Royal Dutch Marines, the French GIGN, the Italian CIS, the German GSG9 and the Swedish SSG. Exchanges lead to international co-operation through mutual contact and evaluation of each others specialised skills. ARW individuals selected are of varying service within the Unit and specialise in areas such as diving, sniping, parachuting, medical or explosives.
Members of the ARW also take part in the Irish Defence Forces contribution to overseas Peacekeeping Missions around the world. Over the years these missions have included service in Lebanon, Bosnia, Cyprus, Iraq, Somalia and Western Sahara.

Info on the ARW

=====
=====

Finally, Thing, your joing the Brit Army at an easy time, as 10 years ago, they HAD to go on at least ONE tour or NI, were they lost AT LEAST one man per platoon.
Also, when you go, you stop being Irish.

You become a black and tan.
You become a TRAITOR

The Brigadier

I was shafted on this when I was younger. I was born in England and lived there until I was 12. I have an irish mother.

When I was leaving I made an application to join the RAF. I was turned down on the grounds that I had not lived the previous 3 years in the UK. As a result I was considered a security risk. Although an Irish national living in the UK for the previous 3 years would have been accepted at the time.

I was turned down afterwards by the Irish Air Corp on the grounds that I did not have Inter Cert Irish, at the time a minimum requirement.

Turnip

Originally posted by Hobart
How do you know that?

No airpower. No armour. No contest. That's not to say that elements of our army couldn't acquit themsleves quite well if they were attached to a large well equipped force. Zzzz. I'm in the FCA if you must know, though I haven't gone for a while. I'm not going to get into a childish 'I know more about the DF than you' spat. I've seen far too much of that. :rolleyes: I simply don't have time to go into the details of my training idea.

bonkey

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
I think in today's globalised world a man has a right to become a mercenary for any army he so wishes.

Has the right, or should have the right?

(In either case, it won't apply to Swiss men who are banned by treaty from being mercenaries for any foreign nation except the Vatican. )

But he should hand back his original passport before he does so and should become responsible for the actions of the army he joins.

I'd agree 100%. The passport should be returned upon leaving the army, obviously.

jc

bonkey

Originally posted by the_syco
You become a TRAITOR

Can you show a single piece of Irish legislation which says that serving a foreign army is an act of treason, or when you say "traitor" are you implying something other than what the term actually means?

jc

Qadhafi

quote: but it is well suited to international peacekeeping roles

The DF trains for all kinds of missions and conventional warfare. Although the government sends Irish soldiers abroad on mainly U.N missions.


quote: I think everyone should do some form of national service, for example, every 2 or 3 years an intensive 6 week course along the lines of SAS training.

hahaha:D special forces training ? do you know how demanding that is? I would love to see some civil servents do a route march with a heavy bergin.

I couldnt call anyone joining the brits a trator. Anyone who leaves the DF is because its crap. As i mentioned, we could get a lot of hardware for next to nothing prices so its not the money that is the problem, we have the bod's that are willing. Its the government thats the problem. €100 - 200 million investment and more irish troops abroad would help remedy the DF and stop Irish people having to leave the DF in droves to serve in other armies.

Hobart

Originally posted by Turnip
No airpower. No armour. No contest. That's not to say that elements of our army couldn't acquit themsleves quite well if they were attached to a large well equipped force.

OK. Would you like to answer my question now. You said

The army would not be able to defend the country in standing battles

I believe you referenced the Army. Not the Air Force. So stop trying to avoid the issue and answer the question. And while your at it. What do you mean by no Armour?

Zzzz. I'm in the FCA if you must know,

Well done.

though I haven't gone for a while.

Obviously

I'm not going to get into a childish 'I know more about the DF than you' spat.

Stop avoiding the issue and answer the questions. I would actually call it mis-infored, as most of your spammy posts seem to be. So lets not be childish and back-up what you have said.

I've seen far too much of that. :rolleyes: I simply don't have time to go into the details of my training idea.

And yet you seem to have plenty of time to post drivel and complete inaccuracies on this and other threads. Why do you bother??:rolleyes:

Vader

gardi have infiltrated 96% of IRA units

I heard it or read it (from a credible source) when that staknife thing came out.

If you were Irish and serving the brits before 1998 you were a traitor because you would have been aiding a foreign army operating within soverign irish territory(the old version of articles 2 and 3)

Turnip

Originally posted by Qadhafi
hahaha:D special forces training ? do you know how demanding that is? I would love to see some civil servents do a route march with a heavy bergin.

Duh. :rolleyes: Obviously it wouldn't be so tough that only 1% could possibly complete it. I'm well aware of how grossly unfit Irish people are. However a little exercise and hard work wouldn't do any harm. Or maybe it would. The country would probably collapse from the shock.

Originally posted by Hobart
OK. Would you like to answer my question now. You said I believe you referenced the Army. Not the Air Force. So stop trying to avoid the issue and answer the question. And while your at it. What do you mean by no Armour?

ROFL. :ninja: So our DF would do ok in a standing battle as long as the nasty enemy didn't 'cheat' and use air superiority or armour or too much artillery or overwhelming numbers like what happens in the real world. By the way, 'armour' is standard military terminology for TANKS. Those 60 ton things with caterpillar tracks and bloody big 120mm guns. We don't have any TANKS.

Stop avoiding the issue and answer the questions. I would actually call it mis-infored, as most of your spammy posts seem to be. So lets not be childish and back-up what you have said.

LOL :cool: Why should anyone believe you have a brother in the cavalry? Prove it.

And yet you seem to have plenty of time to post drivel and complete inaccuracies on this and other threads. Why do you bother??:rolleyes:

This would appear to be the correct place for it.

Boston

so how many tanks do you think we should by, and how much of the pension reserve fund should be redirected towards killing people. We will never have a large enough army to defeat an invader in any conventional way. Yerrorisy tactics will be the only way. don't give the enemy a target. just look at iraq, and the number of troops needed and the cost