I'm retiring as Irish Manager. (long)

DeVore

After scotland I am retiring as Irish manager.

There are many reasons for this, and I'll try and list them in order.

1. I always knew that when I robbed the managers position from Von and Jay (lets face it, I did) that there would come a time when it would have to become democratic etc.
I've been involved in setting up things akin to this before and it NEVER works with committees and consensus. It takes someone to become a dictator, perferably a benevolent one, which I think I was. The time for a more "national" approach is coming and if things I have planned come off between here and Scotland, my replacement will have a pretty smooth ride.

2. I've made a lot of friends through quake. Some of them are now business partners and close friends. Others are people I like to spend a friday night drinking and shouting at. Progressively I have come to note in myself a fear that the position of manager is conflicting with those friendships. I cannot bring everyone on the team trips and there are too many to bring. This leads to me feeling conflicted which is something I spend a good portion of my day avoiding. Stress is a killer, and this does distress me when I'm with these friends.

3. Monetarily I cant afford it any more. I have yet to be paid for the flights to france. Despite some peoples notions that I am making a mint from it the truth is that I'm out of pocket by a factor of thousands and with a new company and no income I simply cant afford it.
Ironically I am retiring just as I hope to find a final decent sponsor for the team. I am also sick of being accused of making cash or some gain from being involved with the team. That came to a head tonight with damians unwarranted personal abuse aimed at me and swipes at Marie.

Marie has written to me to explain that she isnt going to come back to quake.ie because of the abuse she got there over some peoples notions that she and I were romantically involved over in France. This angers me the most because friends are what I value the highest. I dont mind being insulted, I can roll with it but I REALLY hate my friends getting it on account of my actions.
When I said " 9 months" in that postsome time ago I was refering to my intent on arranging
9 v australia v team.ie.
Frankly damo what you said went beyond the limits of acceptability.
The logs (unedited) are here
http://www.spinsol.com/tom/damo.log

Dont get me wrong I could care less what damo thinks but this is something that is happening increasingly often to me. This is merely the worst example of it and since I believe that people should "own their own words" I see nothing wrong with making this log public. People are free to make up their own minds.

So what happens now?
Well the timing is pretty neat actually as q3 begins to take hold and the Irish scene is going to take off. The next few weeks will see me in a position that would conflict with my tenure as manager anyway so its best I announce my retirement after scotland.

So what happens after scotland?
We can have a general consensus for replacement, and perhaps even a vote. I will take the job back IF and ONLY IF people understand my other commitments and agree that they are unconcerned about conflicts of interest. There will have to be an agreed selection panel too as thats part of the job I DONT want.

Finally I'd like to say that I've enjoyed begin manager for the brief time I have been in the job. Maybe its time for a change... I dunno... but this isnt some petulant knee-jerk reaction to damians abuse. This is something I have to do for my own peace of mind (since I was never elected to the job) and something that just *SHOULD* happen. Its wrong for me to stay as manager when no one publically has said they want me to represent them. The job and the team need to have the backing of the community, that can only be achieved through democracy of some sort.

I'm tired and its late so im going to sign off now. Another DeVore length post eh Zero

I have been thinking about this for a long time and I had intended to announce this after scotland but things have moved considerably quicker then I thought they would and its best I announce it now.
Dont be mistaken, I will see the job through for Scotland as much as I ever have. Until then I remain in the job. After that we can all decide.

Tom Murphy.

adra

My opinion may not be worth much, but here it is anyways.

The Irish team needs DeV as the manager....we need DeV to be our teams manager.

If a public vote is what DeV wants then there should be one. We can not afford to loose DeV. He has done so much and all he has gotten in return is abuse. If a public vote helps in re-instating him as manager then I think thats what needs to be done.

These stupid and quite personnal remarks about DeV and to DeV should stop and basically they should never have been said to begin with.
DeV has been taken completely for granted.
Only mindless people accuse someone who has gotten our team into great matches including some beautiful wins and yes sore loses but it was fun. I know I didn't go to France or any of the teams meets but i supported them and wished them all luck, unfortunately I would love to go but I cannot for work reasons.
In my opinion this is all stupid and senseless but perhaps a public vote will open these idiots minds to see that DeV is wanted as manager, and is more than well liked among the community.

As i said, this is my opinion, it may not be worth anything but there it is anyways

Bring back DeV!.......um actually

Don't Let DeV Leave!

without DeV there is no Irish team...no one else can do what he has done, or even come close!

Shinji

Dev is doing the right thing. He'll be team manager again after Scotland, no doubt, because there is NOBODY else in Ireland prepared to undertake the level of commitment, both personal and financial, that Tom has given to Team.ie.

I can only hope that when he is reinstated, he'll get the respect he deserves for the work he puts into this community. A little tyke like Damo should be quite forcibly kicked out on his backside for that kind of crap, imo. I can't comment on whether Dev is a good player or not (he kicks my ass at everything but thats no indication of anything!), but I've never seen him acting condescending to anyone.... And if he did... well, nobody has more right to than he does.

Mata ne!
Rob

Zero

Eh......let me sum it up in three words Tom : No Fukkin Way.

Apart from the money reason, there is no other one for you to quit now when you have taken the team this far. I know you declared yourself in the job when you took the team to France, but the Irish Quake Scene IS democratic, if we didn't want you there, trust me, you would have been gone long ago.

I have an exam in a few hours, so dont really have time to think about the way to put this but there are one or two points have to be made :

1. You are the best man for the job imho

2. Ur position as manager DOES affect things in general with mates, i mean it would be silly to pretend it didn't. You had t o tell Jay he wasnt on team.ie initially, there was ppl who couldnt come to France, there are other mates who wanted to be on the team that you had to turn down. But that comes with the job. you have to expect it, and most of the lads you have to be like that to, are mature enough to respect your uncomfortable position.

3. The Irish Q1ers are happy with the team at the mo, maybe want to allow a bit more scope for possible expansion of the panel or whatever but other that the team is fine. Therefore the current team.ie are the ones who should have the say in who manages them, and you know they think you are the only one for the job.

4. Whenever anyone holds any kind of a position like you have, there are always muppets who will have a problem with it, who will presume you think you're sitting on a high horse. Whether you are or not, ppl have to look past someones attitude and appreciate the job ure doing. Personally I would not go out of pocket for Quake no matter what was being pulled off. If you HAD managed to make a few bob, which I know you didnt, you have a right to it. Trying to organise a team is a thankless job. Fook sake, u should have tried it in my day, a college student with no contacts, no sponsorship, in a country with no idea of teamplay, meself and von trying to get 30 people onto servers during the week on a 300 ping for trials. Bollix to that.

4. The main obstacle, cash. To get things up and running you felt you had to hit ure own pocket, and you were right. What we need to do, and i think everyone will agree with me, is not to have a new manager, but to keep the existing one, i.e. You, but form a panel as regards sponsorship, rather than leaving it up to you entirely. Money can be got, if it can't, we dont go anywhere.
Simple as that. The Irish Team is important, and its fun. I intend being on the Team3.ie, if Q3 ever takes off. We need an Irish Team, a goal, and we need a good manager, which is you. The summer is coming and there will be more time on all our hands for proper organisation, rather than us ppl sitting on our asses and waiting for you click ure fingers.
Think about it. I know already that this thread will hit big numbers with ppl telling you to stay in the job. We just need to organise the whole team thing better. We can meet and discuss it someday soon, a big group of us. I'm willing to lend a hand. Irish Quakers will handle sponsorship, you handle the manager side of it.

Stick around, Tom.

Ronan.

DeVore

Well be sure of one thing ronan , I aint going anywhere but a more important note is that there has to be a sea-change in the way we run the team.

Me clicking fingers is not a good way. Cash, believe it or not, is not the problem. Most of the problem comes from the 4 square inches between my ears. I DO want to be the manager I've had some mad times with the team, you know better then most cos you were there.

But I want to change the way it works.

I want the official backing of players especially with some of the ventures that I am getting into. There WILL be conflicts of interest and when they arise I need to know that I was in some way elected WHILE PEOPLE WERE AWARE OF THOSE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST.

I also want a selection process put in place so that the team is selected on more then just my choice of players.
First time round it was easy cos CW had stood on just about everyone at QP. Now it gets a little more tricky when Q3 hits the scene.

I told you all way back when I "announced" I was taking over the team, that this was getting more "professional" which also meant more serious and that cash would be involved.

You are right about one thing tho, telling Jay and OL that they weren't on the team was the least pleasant experience of my Quake days. The lads were totally 100% behind me and the team, and were very cool about being let down, which only made it worse. Its not something I want to do again.

Hopefully we will have a major sponsor. Hopefully most people will be happy with me regardless of conflicts of interest.
Hopefully we can all migrate to q3 and enjoy another 3 years of online gaming (before q4 )

I am throwing the towel in now so that I can throw my hat in the ring anew. I DONT want people to think this is some pointless excercise, if someone else wanted the job then I want them to stand up and say it.
I'm not the only one who could do this job.
A commitee will need to be formed to select players as I have said, but also to keep the team independant. Sponsorship is likely to come from a wide variety of sources. We need people who are impartial to decide what is best for the team itself.

I wonder now how the FAI and other "national" sports associations got set up without others claiming they were "not the true team"....interesting thought isnt it... how DID they manage it...

As I have said, the topic may be a little alarming but I want a change in the way we do things and the only way to get it is to throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

DeV.

Hobbes

Devore, don't let it get to u and don't leave. ur prolly one of the handful of people who actually made this game a valid sport in Ireland...

Off topic...

*** damian (Hobbes@ts01-034.waterford.indigo.ie) has joined #quake.ie

Looks like it could be love. Seek help damo while you still can!

---

Insert lame off topic Damo comment below ----V

Vexorg

Dev,

Its a pity that anyone who puts time and effort into quake gets abuse from players, so take heart, you are in the company of some fine people like Eddie, Cloud and Slosh and I am sure others, they are the only people I have witnessed getting grief from people in the channel about a site or a server. I am sure that others have also had to put up with hastle. I could/can never understand the torrents of abuse, when asking in a pleasent way would get results just as quickly if not quicker.

I have no idea who this Damien character is, but i can well believe that he is 15, that his daddy and mammy only allow him to play with his computer games when hes not at school ie. expect to see his on a server while school is out for the summer, it wont be an antisocial game when Damien plays and he will run the risk of being kicked out of college/school and possibly even an rsi injury and he'll probably even consider joining/forming a clan and get other people interested in playing the game for whatever ulterior motive he may have himself.

The best part is that he is repeating second hand information about Dev, but what is sickening is that he claims it is coming from quake players he knows or people he has played with and some of whom were in France.

If what Damien said is true it will undoubtely be backed up by these people whom, Damien is "friends" with or, are "acquaintences" of his.

Its sad that Damiens second hand information friends don't really know Dev and see his style of (lets call it) management as being "condesending". Its a pity that the only way the Irish Quake1 Team could be gotten to France and to Northern Ireland was by being condesended upon by a muppet well it worked.

Lets be honest about it tho' Dev doesnt suffer fools easily, he has to be forceful and lay down the law, rightly or wrongly, to get things done in a timeframe that suits him and fits in with working. You may not like his style but its his style that has gotten results.

So Damien, its going to be interesting to see who backs your second hand information up, will these people leave you high and dry and show you up as the muppet. I bet your anonymous mates remain so.

Jay

Damien,

Next time youre in Limerick, don't bother calling into this house.

Slosh

Its a pity that some1 who puts in so much effort into this scene has to put up with so much nonsense.

Tom, 99% of us know the money its cost and the lost time which you could have spent on your company, and we all appreciate it.

Dont let the ramblings of a pubescent little boy and other fools spoil this.

And do you honestly think you'll be _let_ step down from the team ??

Brian.

Koopa

have a vote.
I reckon you're the best man for the job.

Daa

Well done Thomas, on your wonderful achievements in the Irish Quake Scene and especially for bringing the national team so far...but a time comes in every person's life where they get a little, shall we say, old and should 'retire'. Maybe, my dear friend, Thomas your time has come and me being such a greet led and all, I think I shall be the man to take your place as team captain and NEW egomaniac of the Quake Scene "Respect MAAAAAAAAAAy Authoritaiiiiy!"
Anyways, Tom, I might buy ya a drink some time and send ya a cheque in the post to go to Peter Marks and get that beard of yours chopped off once and for all. At least it will solve the problem of the salads from Spar getting caught up in your beard making you look like an overwhelming gob****e
Fair play Tom!
...from a loving friend...

MindPhuck

Quote :
> Its wrong for me to stay as manager when
> no one publically has said they want me to
> represent them.

I hereby give my vote to dev and hope he will stay as the manager. Secondly, Id like to sponsor £100 to team.ie and any forthcoming ventures I will try and provide transport. I 'd like to offer my services as a dumb git who knows a little bout organization and like to help out in any way possible.

Tom, from reading the above posts I cant add much more to what Ronan and Gerry have said. I can only add that you have my sincere respect as the manager and as you have said to me.. Keep the Faith.

Eric.

Jaden

Amen brother MP, Amen.

Hail To The King, Baby.

Jaden.

Shinji

Actually, there's a thought Eric has.... If we were to set up a shared war chest for Team.ie, IE2 and IE3 (or whatever), into which community people can put money whenever they have excess... It might never amount to more than a few hundred quid, but even that would benefit the team a fair bit, IMO.

Thoughts?

Mata ne!
Rob

SeP

cant say alot more than Z and Vex did..

sep[tom murphy for team.ie management...1 vote more]py

Mickah

Dev should stay manager

What should his role should be :

He's a great front man, slick organiser, remember all that publicity and sponsorship he got us? Everyone gets on with him.

As far as the selection process goes, i reckon u should use a few of the top players as an informal panel. No-one knows the skills of other players better than the players themselves.

Mickah

El_Presidente

I'll keep this short cus theres little I want to say that hasn't been said already.

DEV FOR LEADER!!!!!

If he wants sole dictatorship of team.ie he should get it, if he wants to have a commite system then fine but we NEED him.

Everyone should say it right here in this thread so there is absolutly no doubt.

El

H_K

yeah, fair fuxx to devore, although i dont know him - no one else would do that kinda thing - not me anyway - and at least the games in france went ahead.
Q3 should bring loadsa players in and a real good standard - cos a few ppl like u among other HAVE brought us up to date with these things
I reckon u should stay to see thru what ui started man

pat

damo

yeah like i said, something that could mean so much to others, means so little to me, to be honest alot of that was just personal beliefs of mine which i have every right to make public, and alot of it i admit was just abusive drivel to defend myself seeing as itwas about 6 on 1, i didnt mean for it to be taken so personally by you tom, but thats just the way it goes, i do think you have done a very good job as the team manager, thats obvious by such outings as france and northern ireland, but in MY opinion, i repeat MY O-P-I-N-I-O-N there have been times when i feel you have looked down on alot of people, and i just made my beliefs public, i apologise for dragging anyone else into this when it did not concern them, that was me trying to defend myself against the greater number, although i admit to it being totally my fault, anyway

gandalf

Dev,

As I said before your mad to be doing this. Go off and earn loads of money and forget about Quake. Oh and when your gone can I have your ISDN line

Naw seriously Dev, most of the Irish Quake Community owe you alot for all you have done. QP, Team.ie etc etc all would not have happened if your were not around. Don't be discouraged by the antisocials who just don't have a clue. I vote for you to stay on as Team.ie manager.

Gandalf.

DeVore

You own your own words.

DeVore.

Shiminay

I reckon Tom should also run for the MEP ellections!

Joking aside - You've done bucket-loads Tom and I don't realisticly think that anyone else is ably to do the job as well as you've done / are doing it.

You've got my vote (unless someone buys it).

---

All the best,

Dav
@B^)
homepage.tinet.ie/~davitt

Venom

Damo,on behave of everyone who reads this board....

FUK OFF


Ven(dont let the door hit your @rse on the way out @*******)om

JaneyMackers

From what i can see Dev was very good at his job as team.ie manager getting the international's esp the ones abroad musta been alot of work.

I only hope i can do for the q2 team what you did for the q1 team.

H_K

well not on behalf of EVERYONE like...
damo has his point, but its WAY exagerated
i think devore has done a lot of good - damo just think he looks over a lot of players - who knows does he even pick the team ? im not makin a point here there should be concrete trials, not just CW are the best, let em in...but thats aside from management of the team though

pat

damo

to the likes of venom and co., this doesent bother me, dont let it bother you.......(and you spelt behalf wrong, making your comment look a little dumb)

Vorosha

Here now Tom, seriously, I'd say you're doing a ****ing brilliant job with the TEAM.IE and I know for a fact that you're a generous kind hearted lad. I think you're the perfect guy for the job and I think you're a sound, funny bloke.

But, jesus christ...

If I hear you say the words 'out of pocket' one more time I'll puke. Were you forced to take the TEAM.IE position? Were you forced to spend money on it? JESUS! I'm nothing to do with it. I certainly wouldn't ****ing let myself go 'out of pocket' over something like TEAM.IE +PLUS if I ****ing did cos it was NEEDED or I was feeling GENEROUS I wouldn't ****ing come on this bored and then WHINE about it. So you're out of pocket... that's no-one's ****ing buisness but your own. I was sickend to hear you repeatedly force the fact that you spent you're own money on TEAM.IE. Seeing as I wasn't forcing you to and NO-ONE else was either I'd appreciate it if you kept it to yourself.

Do you want us to feel guilty? or maybe sorry for you?

johnoo

Leds,
End of the day tis Devon's choice. Naturally yahs can have a say in the matter but It is up to him and if people are giving him stick, worse **** happens to better people.

johnooo

ste

Damo Said:

"i feel you have looked down on alot of people, and i just made my beliefs public, i apologise for dragging anyone else into this when it did not concern them, that was me trying to defend myself against the greater number"


And here here Pat (H-K).

Just give us all a chance. On equal terms.

[This message has been edited by ste (edited 21-05-99).]

Zero

H-k :
there should be concrete trials, not just CW are the best

Ste :
Just give us all a chance. On equal terms.

Pat, how do u propose 'concrete' trials? As regards teamplay skill, there are only maybe 4 or 5 who could be on the team to replace someone there. Beast, Bunny and Tomb are pure animals, and Von knows TP back to front. Who is gonna replace one of these? there are a few candidates :

Mickah : Excellent tp, deadly player, but due to LC hasnt had the time to play.
Overlord : The king of FFA, unstoppable with a Quad, but hasnt much TP and hasnt the time to learn it.
Jay : The quickest Muppet-to-Ninja conversion I ever saw in my life, but the UL connect means he's unavailable for team.ie praccy.
Slaan : Sh!tty connection, doesnt play.
Lorcan : Too young, think his mammy would let him off to France with characters the likes of beast, devore, etc? I was scared meself.
Chaos : A possible. Dunno.

Prolly one or two i missed out there, my brain is a bit fuzzy with exams n sh!t. As you can see, choices are limited. But to the other point, how can concrete trials be done when server connects are @rse? Maybe over the summer, a bit more can be done with more players available. But the only way for a team to train is on a lan, that kinda suggests Dublin, so down-country players lose out there. Hopefully if q3 gets going Ireland wont be as far behind other countries as regards skill, and we can have a large selection of decent players to choose from more democratically.

Zero.

P.S. Of course I left myself out of the above players :
*** DeVore (quake@ts03-072.dublin.indigo.ie) has joined #quake.ie
<Devore> Zero, we want you on the team.
<Zero> No
<Devore> PLEASE, ure country needs you.
<Zero> No. Fukk off.
<Devore> I'll get a sponsor to pay you £1000 per game you play.
<Zero> I said no, now pi$$ off please.
<Devore> £2000
<Zero> No.
<Devore> £5000
<Zero> No.
<Devore> £10000
<Zero> Pfffff. Name a decent price.
<Devore> Twenty Five Grand
<Zero> Haha no way. F U C K O F F.
* Devore sighs
<Devore> k so.......

Shiminay

I read that log shortly after I made my previous post. I should have been studying, but this was way too much fun!!! If you haven't read it, do! That was one of the funniest things I ever read in my life

As I said Tom - you have my support.

Damo - it's getting old d00d!!!

---

All the best,

Dav
@B^)
homepage.tinet.ie/~davitt

DeVore

HK, I'm blue in the face trying to organise trials.

There WILL be trials before Scotland.

When we played Scotland there was only ONE CW player (slaan) on the team and he hadnt been to France. So we have 7 capped players now.

Think of the problems I have. Players are spread all around the country. The biggest concentration of players outside Dublin is in UL or in Wexford/waterford or Galway.

What exactly do you want me to do?

There are exams at the moment which I have to respect. The trials will HAVE to be in Dublin as I dont have the time to travel around the country checking out players.
You cant seriously expect me to.

We have exactly 5 weeks to go now.
How am I to judge if the team would play better by swapping player x with candidate y.

I gave EVERYONE the chance to put forward their own team or suggest players and noone said anything.

Who do you want to see included?
Who gets the boot?

HK *I* chose that team but if you remember I SUGGESTED it as the team and noone even attempted to argue with it.

FYI, Ol, Jay, Zero, Mickah, Mp and plenty of other players have told me in person that they agree with that team entirely.

There will be trials in Nethouse as soon as the exams are over but since the team has to get used to each other by the 25th June, can you really tell me that you would countenence changing a player now for someone untested on observation?

If someone is impressive on a lan then they will go.

There are 10 places I estimate.

2 x duelers (of which Koopa will be one and Koopa will choose the other since he is the best qualified to choose. Possibly koopa will chose noone as I am not just taking someone to make up the numbers. Unless they are on a par with koopa they are a waste of a space in a car)

1 x 2-man team. This is open to all but again the rule above applies. Unless they have a decent chance of NOT being spanked then they are just a waste of space in a car and cash.

1x 4 man team (they will also double as two more 2 v 2 teams)

1 x me
1 x Vexorg (if he is willing to go)

The only person who is sure of a place is Vexorg since anyone who has gone on a trip with us will tell you that it cant really be done without him.

Anyone else who can pay their way is welcome to squeeze into a car if they can find a space. They make up the feared ( and currently undefeated) supporters club. Its quite easy to get to the venue by public transport.

HK you are the only one I am responding to as the others have not put forward even an attempt at logic (or have just agreed with you). I'm open to arguement, what I'm not open to is abuse.

DeVore.

ste

Dev, I think the point paddors making is that your underestimating a whole load of ppl. You gotta remember on the net there are ppl playing with the best of the best pcs with the lowest of low ping competing against ppl with the lowest of the low pcs and highest of the high pings, yet every1 is judged on this performance, well almost.

For example I'm shure if a LAN event was organised alot of them galway boys would come up and wh00p ass, and earn positions on the team, yet at the mo. you dont even RATE them. I'm not moaing here and giving out, I'm just saying I know there are better players out there.



paddor u owe me one ;P

ButcherOfNog

then they go up to nethouse and show team.ie how good they are, or quit whinging.

DeVore

Fair Comment but if you remember, I picked the team based on QP which is the closest thing to what you have outlined (btw I like the way you slip in "I'm shure if a LAN event was organised", easy to say )

At QP Koopa raped everyone except bunny with ease. So I picked him as our dueler.

CW crushed anyone near them. Did ANYONE give them even so much as a one moments bother?
Slaan and Mickah were about the only ones who troubled them at all. Lets face it, they stood on the rest of us. Slann and Mickah figured in the NI v IE team lineup if you recall.

Everyone had their shot on a perfect lan with they're own machines. And you are right, some people played MUCH better then on the net. But if you think I didnt notice that then you must take me for a fool. How many times have I said that I'd LOVE for Lorcan to play for Team.ie but that he's too young for me to bring away. I was concerned enough about Slann only for that his brother was coming to NI too.

Remember that CW are also mostly HPBs and at QP they had been playing on old modems and crappy machines.

Out of 8 possible international places we have 7 capped players so you can hardly say I've not given people a shot.

DeV.

damo

theres no point arguing about the team selection as its devs choice, and if he has gone thousands of pounds out of pocket then he has every right to chose whoever he wants - woah look i just stood up for dev.......and errrr *cough* WAS going to put my name down for the dueling place haha