RIAA Sues 12-Year Old Girl

Cabaal

This is somewhat related to DSL, but anyway,
Just been posted on slashdot.org
RIAA Sues 12-Year Old Girl

The thing about this, is I'll bet they'll drop the case.
Surely this is not fair, because I doubt they'll do it to a 18 year old.

There's no difference after all in the RIAA's eye's stealing is stealing.
Only reason they'll drop it is PR nothing more.

fisty

give her the chair!!

Ancient1

Pathetic...dont these people have anything better to do?

12 year old ! was she a threat to national security? was she corroding the moral fabric of the nation?

only in america dude

Lenny

Has anyone over in ireland ever been charged with such a thing?6

Cabaal

Originally posted by Lenny
Has anyone over in ireland ever been charged with such a thing?6

Not heard of it happening to anyone in Ireland yet, heard of loads of people in the UK either getting warnings or there ISP's closing there accounts.

I'd imagine if it does happen in Ireland, the rat will be happy once again to screw over people.

CyberGhost

this is the last level of assholism, RIAA must be kicked of the internet! FREE INTERNET!

bizmark

well they are basicly steeling music whats the difference from going to HMV and takeing a cd ?

i wouldnt worry about it though they will never stop File shareing it just wont happen.......I for one couldnt care either way

CyberGhost

"well they are basicly steeling music whats the difference from going to HMV and takeing a cd," by taking you mean stealing?

well the difference is: 1 euro for bus, and the comfort of sitting at home and downloading

if buying the difference is: 15 euros at least

Cabaal

Originally posted by bizmark
well they are basicly steeling music whats the difference from going to HMV and takeing a cd ?

A bit of a difference

If you compare file swapping to stealing a CD, lets see I'd walk into HMV and walk out again with a CD but the origonal CD would still be on the shelf and HMV haven't lost any profits because they haven't lost any stock and when it comes down to it I buy better CD's because of file swapping.
I'm much happier with what I buy.

bizmark

hmmmm theirs still people (id say most) that dont do it like that .....They take songs etc and never have any intension to buy the album

but personal i dont care either way ....I will support my favour band by buying their album..and will more than likely keep on stealing things from the web ......but it doesnt change the fact its wrong lol

MrPinK

CD's are a dying breed, the music industy has to accept this. Everyone I know just rips them and sticks them in the backet of a closet. As soon as the ridiculous lawsuits stop, the copyright laws can be ammended to decriminalise music sharing and make sure that artists are properly compensated for it, just like they did when radio came along. Radio stations came under similar attack from copyright nuts when they first came out.

bizmark

thats a good point also technology move's on either move with it or die ...........with their droping profits maybe the Music industry better stop looking backwords and start looking forword

Töpher

i know i d/l alot of music, and due to financial reasons i can't buy every album i d/l tracks off, but, if i get music and i like they band, and they come here on tour, i will make the effort to go, the bands make more money from touring and merch sales anyways, they make less than a dollar between em per album, yet i'd imagine the RIAA, who are the ones upset at all this, make a truckload!

De Rebel

god bless amerika

Dustaz

Er, it really should be pointed out that Bizmark is entirely correct. Downloading music IS stealing. You are taking something that you have not paid for. Just because everyone does it does not change what it is.

Davey Devil

I have never bought cd's on the account that they are way over priced for the amount of money they cost to produce. Because of this I have always borrowed music of my friends. By downloading music off the internet I am simply borrowing the music off my on-line friends, in no way am i stealing because I never would have bought the cd in the first place. The record companies aren't losing any money off me because I never would have bought the album I downloaded. In my opinion it should only be illegal if a person downloads a song and then sells it on for profit.

simu

Downloading music means you can find music you like without getting ripped off buying CDs - if you like the music you've downloaded, you are more likely to invest in other albums from that artist or go to see them live - which can only be a good thing:)

As for the 12-yr old, I hope this case gets a lot of publicity - it will show people how ridiculous and out of touch many of the RRIA's policies are.

MrPinK

Originally posted by Dustaz
Er, it really should be pointed out that Bizmark is entirely correct. Downloading music IS stealing. You are taking something that you have not paid for. Just because everyone does it does not change what it is.

What if I record a film that is shown on TV3? I haven't paid for anything, and at the end of it I have a tape that would have cost me €10 in the shops, but have I stolen anything?

The RIAA are trying to push that idea that 'sharing is stealing, full stop' but it is a very grey area. I think that everyone that shares music would agree that artists and song writers should get some money from ppl sharing their work, but it's not up to filesharers to work out how. If the RIAA weren't so intent on keeping hold of their outrageously priced CD racket, then they would have worked something out by now.

Imposter

Originally posted by Dustaz
Er, it really should be pointed out that Bizmark is entirely correct. Downloading music IS stealing. You are taking something that you have not paid for. Just because everyone does it does not change what it is.

It's not stealing. It's copyright violation. Taking the CD from HMV is stealing.

Some people use d/l to avoid buying the thrash that the RIAA's members are churning out and only buy something that's worth the inflated price tags.

Aside: How can they reduce prices just this week by $5-$7(I think I saw) but ONLY in the US.

Others never buy a CD and that is wrong but it's not stealing as I said above. Add to that the argument that the RIAA is not losing money from these people that never buy CD's as they will never buy music and will always copy it from friends or off the radio or whatever.

And then there's the new protections on the CD's. If you buy the CD legitimately you cannot put it on your computer/MP3 player. That is wrong too but this time it's the RIAA that's wrong (If copyrighted CD's cost less for that reason then that OK imo).

And videoing something off the TV is the same thing.

jongore

Originally posted by MrPinK
What if I record a film that is shown on TV3? I haven't paid for anything, and at the end of it I have a tape that would have cost me €10 in the shops, but have I stolen anything?

Under copyright laws you have, leagaly you are only entitled to record public programs (News, etc.)

It's BS I know, it's just another of those laws that isn't enforced.

The music industry is looking for someone to blame for declining CD sales, online swappers are an easy target (never mind the outragous prices that they charge)

Kali

Well the main reason for falling sales is the high cost of CDs in the stores.. responding to which Universal are set to drop their prices by upto 30% .. hopefully that'll mean other record labels will fall in line.

reported here:

http://pitchforkmedia.com/news/03-09/04.shtml

as far as the 12-yr old girl goes, she herself should go sue mcdonalds, jeez talk about fat kids.

Dustaz

Well i know that i buy less albums since i got broadband.

Draw your own conclusions.

At the end of the day theres Artists losing money because of me.

scojones

they settled and are sueing her mother for 2,000USD.

Lemming

Originally posted by Kali
Well the main reason for falling sales is the high cost of CDs in the stores..

Umm .. that's not entirely true. They've been rather selective with their "truths". For example, neglecting to make public the fact that they lowered product volumes of CD's to alleviate growing stockpiles over the last coiuple of years. Hence less CD's being sold (or produced).

They're two-bit scam artists looking for a distraction.

MrPinK

Originally posted by Dustaz
At the end of the day theres Artists losing money because of me.

Take a look at MTV Cribs, you'll feel a little less guilty

I've heard there are sites that have set up annonymous tip jars, so you can send money directly to the artists that you've gotten music from. If you sent them €3 per album they'd probably be making as much as if you bought the album in the shops.

Lenny

Originally posted by Kali


as far as the 12-yr old girl goes, she herself should go sue mcdonalds, jeez talk about fat kids.

haha

Capt'n Midnight

FROM http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/6/32740.html

It took all of twenty-four hours for young Biggie Brianna to be hit with a lawsuit and then pay up for her alleged crimes. The youngster's mother has agreed to shell out $2,000 to get the RIAA (Recording Industry Association of America) off her family's back. This marks the first settlement to come as a result of the 261 lawsuits the RIAA filed this week.

Earlier in the day, Brianna complained of stomach pains and emotional suffering as a result of the RIAA's actions. After signing the soothing settlement, however, she expressed regret at having harmed the precious artists.

honru

It's not stealing. It's copyright violation. Taking the CD from HMV is stealing.

Exactly. This "downloading is just like taking a CD from HMV" analogy has been played since Napster, and its getting really, really old.

As for the RIAA/twelve year-old issue, its such bull, like she was a threat to society or something. The RIAA are just being bullies now. OK, if you want to target some major offender, thats fine (in this world anyway, in my world: FREE INTERNET). But to sue the parents of a kid who was just downloading TV themes and Mariah Carey songs is such crap. What a great way to kickstart the lawsuit parade by suing some kid's parents. The publicity behind this case is everywhere now, and people will take note.

Very good points so far in this thread.

Capt'n Midnight

Production Costs

Many Sunday papers give out Free Music CD's - and most ISP's had out data CD's - even though most never get used.

On that basis the cost of physically making the CD , distrbuting , stocking and selling CD's at a profit can't be much.

IMHO the record companies have to ask themselves what business model they want to follow for the future - do they try to continue to make an obsense margin or would they rather make a smaller margin on a higher sales volume...

By dropping the price to €5 per album - where people can make impulse buys, they should sell more..

honru

Just caught this news article. The president of Grokster is offering to pay for the $2000 fine imposed on the twelve year-old's mother. Its really RIAA vs. P2P vs. The World at the moment, anyway, you can check out the article here.

Ancient1

This is all getting beyond ridiculous - its pathetic. No one remembers the music, and the industry has become a monster.

I check out an mp3, if i really like it, then i buy the cd - i even love the smell of a brand new lyrics booklet. So if i own lets say 6 albums by one band, seen them live 3 times, and want to d/l their stuff (coz it's either rare, or on a compilation or whatever) - then the RIAA can kiss my ass.
This is common sense. Calling it theft is a bit drastic, i'm just gettin my moneys worth, coz the artist gets 2 Euros out of every 22 that i spend on a cd.

Personally i think it will be a while before this latest US made mania reaches our shores.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.vnunet.com/News/1143514

The head of peer-to-peer (P2P) company Grokster has offered to pay the $2,000 settlement the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) has agreed with a 12-year-old girl over her file sharing.
Wayne Rosso, president of P2P software development company Grokster, said he had made the offer because he was "disgusted" by the RIAA's tactics. "I'm trying to contact the mother to offer to pay the $2,000 for her out of my own pocket. I'm disgusted by the RIAA and its extortion tactics," he told vnunet.com.

"I thought that the two Joes, McCarthy and Stalin, were dead. But little did I know that they're both alive and well and running the RIAA."

A further 260 users face lawsuits, including a 71 year-old grandfather.

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.riaa.com/news/newsletter/082903.asp

All music format shipments (total U.S. music shipments), including to direct and special markets, dropped 15.8 percent from 398.5 million units (first half of 2002) to 335.6 million units (first half of 2003). In dollar value, this represents a 12 percent decrease, from $5.5 billion to $4.8 billion.

Ignoring the fact that a lot of the drop is due to the recession or music industry cycles let's look at the figures..

So they ship ~760 million units of all formats each year to 250 million americans. - Thats only 3 each per year - the music industry obviously has major marketing problems it that's the best they can do given the number of people who listen to music (~90% of all radio airtime / tons of music stations. etc)

andrew163

"I don't think we need to club people to death to get them to understand that downloading is a problem. I worry that the tactics and the tools are excessive," Senator Norm Coleman said in a statement.

understatement of the century.... haven't these people ever heard of overkill? :mad:

thanks to P2P, ive bought 2 CDs in the last month or so that I would not have bought WITHOUT P2P....... because I first got the songs off kazaa, I liked them, so bought the rest of the album....

Without P2P i'd have never considered buying the CDs.........

RIAA are ba$tards. This whole thing makes that eircom rat look like a saint...... NEVER thought I'd hear myself say that :rolleyes:

anywhoo........ ive deleted winmx and kazaa and im not using them until this whole moneymaking charade of the RIAA blows over.....

again, ba$tards
:mad: :mad: :mad:

Cabaal

Originally posted by Dustaz
Well i know that i buy less albums since i got broadband.

Draw your own conclusions.

At the end of the day theres Artists losing money because of me.

Pfft I think they'll live with 1M less some how, cribs makes me totally sick!

Besides obviously the RIAA are starting to give up on "we're loosingh money as its not getting them anywhere and now there starting on other things altogether....

Cabaal

Ok basically we all know that illegal file sharing has existed as long as the Internet, hell illegal copies of Doom were available when it came out, graned it was slow but if you knew where to look you could find them.

When I started on the net most things were on ftp sites and then as we all know file sharing appz came in a few years later.

But the fact of the matter is the RIAA/MPAA etc etc can do what they like but they will NEVER stop illegal music/film sharing.

When it comes down to it, people like MP3's and there';s a market for music files after all Creative wouldn't have made the Jukebox and Apple would not have made the ipod if there wasn't a market for it
The CD is dead and the RIAA have had years to adapt INSTEAD they have just tried to fight the change because there scared as **** of loosing there hold on all that money they have now.

I see the music industry as sick, I watch cribs and gringe at how much sickening money they have and I no longer see MTV as I used to, I used to see it as free and easy going now I just see it as a channel doing nothing but advertising products/names/logos/brands with everything they air.
Infact properly the best way it was put was in the book No Logo.
If you haven't read it READ IT NOW!


Yes downloaing the latest #1 song is wrong I know that, you know that hell even my dog knows that¬.
But your telling me that selling a CD single for €6-8 is'ent daylight robbery??!

A CD is a CD is a CD, its round and its a piece of plastic nothing more, AOL gives millions of them away for free and so does EirCON etc etc
Don't see them charging a arm and a leg for them, at most I would expect a CD single to cost €2 its a valid price for it to sell for and a album should be selling for around €10-12.

If you do the maths I think you'll find the industry will still make a profit in the end, maybe not a massive sickening profit like they do now but enough for that Jennifer Lopez one or whatever one hit wounder band are in the charts these days to get a new car or maybe buy something nice for themselfs.

Now have a read of this , its old but has many valid points.

well thats my rant over...

bizmark

I no longer see MTV as I used to, I used to see it as free and easy going now I just see it as a channel doing nothing but advertising products/names/logos/brands with everything they air.

this is off topic and all but......Mtv lol you be hard pressed to see any music on mtv anymore and the music you do see is cut short so some dumb ass presenter can have 5 mins extra to make a ass of himsel.....................

ANYWAY..............back on topic....File shareing is great theirs no 2 ways around it why pay for it when you can get it for free....sure its wrong but thats human nature for ya.To try and fight file shareing is pointless wast of time and money it wont go away and wiith broadband becomeing more and more ease to get it will only get bigger

Cabaal

Originally posted by bizmark
To try and fight file shareing is pointless wast of time and money it wont go away and wiith broadband becomeing more and more ease to get it will only get bigger

On a slightly related topic, if you stop file sharing ALOT of people won't want DSL anymore, its half the reason most people have it.

So if the RIAA did ever win, down goes alot of ISP's as alot of customers will be happy with slower connections.

bizmark

not sure about that......Most sites now are built for broadband in mind.....Online games for the PC Ps2 and Xbox ........ game and softwear updates .........etc etc etc

Dont worry about it File shareing will be around more than likely longer than me and you

Dr Bolouswki

*cough*

ahhhhemmm... ehhh. I used to buy about 4 CD singles and 2 albums a month back in the early 90's... then I discovered Napster... then Winmx.... then Kazaa, Morpheus etc....

Haven't bought an album since 1996...

I go to gigs infrequently and in fairness, I'm not into music as much as I used to be, but I simply don't buy CD's cos I hate having to keep somewhere to store them - and because I can get them good quality for free...

I think that's a problem for the record companies. Thing is, if they offered a good download service for say €5 an album, thus cutting down on ALL their manufacturing costs, I'd probably still buy... in fact, I'd buy far more than I download (stuck on 56k :mad: )

Thats €5 they otherwise wouldn't have - and I doubt I'm alone in my attitude...

It's trying to keep their profits so high that has created this situation....

Cabaal

Just came across this so I thought I'd upload it

Its a 10MB video, but its funny/weird
http://www.cabaal.org/pub/archive/vids/riaa_advert.mpeg
CONTAINS VIOLENCE, MAY NOT BE SUITABLE FOR CHILDREN or PEOPLE OF A SENSITIVE NATURE...

A further 260 users face lawsuits, including a 71 year-old grandfather

Anyone see a pattern emerging here? Next thing you know they'll be sueing little puppies and kittens

fisty

a few things i wanna get off my chest about P2P...

If you have dialup, you download single mp3s.
When you get broadband you start downloading albums and movies and full apps, thats how it works... you graduate and are given much more power which you can use for stealing if you're that way inclined.

Broadband isn't to blame for stealing, thats human nature.
If people are particularly prone to stealing, broadband can satisfy their inherant greed but I strongly believe most people would be fair if they had the option.


I do think people can get full use of their broadband and not steal, its just hard to see kids and students with very limited cash and a fat college pipe not using P2P.

For example, because of the extraordinary cost of broadband in ireland people feel like they want to recoup the disgusting
amount they paid out and use p2p to satisfy the feeling that they're getting their moneys worth.


Lawsuits are definately not the way forward, the problem is far bigger than that, it's worldwide, under many jurisdictions.

What is needed here is fresh thinking, create a service where people can download anything they want, music, games, apps, movies....whatever.

Then charge people for that privilege on a per download basis.

Start a massive advertising campaign making people know this is available and that not using it is outright stealing. Eventually it will become socially unacceptable to steal because you can. For example, just because I can punch some old lady in the mouth and take her purse and get away with it doesn't mean I should.....

If you were to tell someone you did this they would see you as scum. This is the attitude record companies should be looking for when someone says they download from P2P.

Legal action is so the last thing they want, history shows creating martyrs is a bad idea, time and time again its turned around and bitten them in the arse.

If they examine the politics of whats happening they will see this, filesharers see themselves as a community, and the RIAA as the boogie man in that community.

When, and I mean When and not If, the RIAA start a music download service, where you can download from fast servers any album you want in mp3 format for a small fee it will take off very fast(itunes anyone?).

Unfortunately the longer they keep alienating the community and sending out those subpoenas , the less people will sign up.

The reson for this is that the community will want revenge for all the martyrs being created by the RIAA at the moment because of their current policies on the issue.


-Take note RIAA, move with the times or get left behind.-
-The rest of the world isn't going to wait for you to get your finger out-

fisty.

RainyDay

Arguements relating to the fancy houses that you've seen on cribs are ridiculous. So if I live in a slum and your modest house/flat looks like a palace to me, does that justify me ripping off your video or your car?

Arguements relating to the manufacturing cost of a CD are equally ridiculous. In case you haven't noticed, we're talking about content here people, not media. Do you expect to get a newspaper for the price of randomly printed paper, or do you recognise the value of the writing. Do you expect to get a Sky/NTL/Chorus subscription for the manufacturing costs of the satellite box, or do you recognise the value of the programs?

If you don't like the prices charged for CD's, you have one valid option - Don't buy it. Anything else is theft.

I'm amazed at how creative people can become at dreaming up excuses to salve their own consciences. I'm left wondering how many of those posters who are extolling the virtues of unauthorised music downloads earn their living in their software business (as I do) - I presume you have no objections when people make unauthorised copies of your products, and get the value of your products without paying?

Cabaal

Originally posted by RainyDay
Arguements relating to the fancy houses that you've seen on cribs are ridiculous. So if I live in a slum and your modest house/flat looks like a palace to me, does that justify me ripping off your video or your car?

Since when is downloading a CD worth of music equal to stealing a car?
Very different items both physically/value/cost of making etc
Come on your stretching the whole thing to its limits at this stage!

As for the rest, the math has been done, hell even some Artists can see that the whole situation is ****ed up beyond belief!

You'll notice nobody here is trying to justify downloading Photoshop is ok because its a piece of software thats woth it, where as most music these days is shiite and is just released to ripp off teenagers!
Its just a shame the RIAA can't see the truth, I'm not going to get into a big argument on this part of the topic.

The fact is the RIAA sued a 12 year old girl ffs! its beyong a joke.

Jorinn

The whole thing doesn't make sense as not only are they giving themselves some bad publicity but they seem to have had a negative impact on their sales.

In the past few months since the RIAA started their legal battles the amount of filesharers online has dropped by about 20%, at the same time sales of cds ALSO fell. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

On a related note people are noting the amount of albums they buy since they got broadband etc. I've bought more albums and dvds since I got broadband, bought 3 DVDs and 2 albums in the last week alone, coincidently I had 1 of those albums and all of the DVDs in MP3/DivX format already. I guess it just depends on what kind of person you are.

RainyDay

Since when is downloading a CD worth of music equal to stealing a car?
Very different items both physically/value/cost of making etc
Come on your stretching the whole thing to its limits at this stage!

Ah now I get your ethical position - you are basically saying that 'a little bit' of theft is OK?

So let's leave the car analogy behind - if you have a really nice racing bike and you are pretty comfortable & I am struggling to make ends meet, then there is nothing wrong with me nicking your water bottle or your pump off the frame - OK?


Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I like how the music industry works or how they price their materials - I'm just pointing out that just because I don't like their prices, that doesn't give me the right to steal their content.

Imposter

I'll say it again for those who can't read. It's COPYRIGHT VIOLATION not stealing.

Yes it's illegal but it's not stealing. Did anyone here who's on the RIAA's side, ever copy anything off the radio or television and look/listen to it more than once? If so then you're doing the same thing. Ever broken any laws? Speeding, jaywalking anyone?

Also how do you justify me not being able to rip my newly purchased CD so that I can listen to it on an MP3 player? Surely i've paid for the copyrighted material but the technology used by the music industry is preventing me from using the material I have bought the way I want to.

RainyDay

Also how do you justify me not being able to rip my newly purchased CD so that I can listen to it on an MP3 player?

I don't have to justify it to you - It is against the law - plain & simple. It is up to the copyright owner to set the conditions of sale - If you don't like those conditions, don't buy the product. You don't have the right to make up your own rules.

Yes it's illegal but it's not stealing. Did anyone here who's on the RIAA's side, ever copy anything off the radio or television and look/listen to it more than once? If so then you're doing the same thing. Ever broken any laws? Speeding, jaywalking anyone?

Yes, I've broken speed limits from time to time. And if I am caught, I pay the price. I don't whinge about the speed limits being too low or guards having 'real criminals to catch' etc etc. If you break the law, you pay the price.

You seem to be encouraging a society where each individual makes their own decision about which laws they keep & which laws the break, and the rest of us have to put up with it. Is that really the way you want our society to go?

daveg

I agree with the analogy of taping off the radio or TV. It is exactly the same. IT IS NOT STEALING it is copyright violation. The reason there is uproar is because the music industry is "claiming" to loose so much money because of P2P.

For all those who are veminously against P2P/MP3 ect have you ever taped a film off the TV? Have you ever recorded a song off the radio?

Mr E

It might be a simplistic view, but I treat filesharing as "try before you buy."

If I download an album and I like it, then I'll buy the bloody thing. I have no problem with that. I spend at least €100 a month on CDs.

I discovered so many cool bands and singers through downloading which I would NEVER have heard of otherwise, and yes - I'm buying their CDs. Whats more, if I download one great album by a particular artist, I'm more inclined to check out their back catalogue too.

I'll shut up now.

/me goes back to Dido's new album.....

- D.