Abuse at Netsource

The Brigadier

Just received an email from Netsource. They are alleging that I have though a Peer to Peer service offered copyrighted material for download.

Body Below

he distribution of unauthorized copies of copyrighted material constitutes a breach of Netsource Terms, quoted as follows :

3. Prohibited use

3.1 You may not use your account for any illegal purpose, including but not
limited to, unauthorised copying of copyrighted material, threatening
bodily harm or property damage or making fraudulent offers of products or
services.
This conduct may also violate the laws of The Republic of Ireland, other
countries, international law, and/or treaty obligations.

Since you rent this IP address from Netsource, we request that you
immediately do the following:

1. Provide evidence to this office that the service being rented by you
from Netsource is not being used to offer or distribute copyrighted material

2. Where you are unable to provide such evidence that your Netsource
service is not being used for this purpose provide evidence to this office
of the action you have taken to prevent all future such use by individuals
using your Netsource service

Please note that the evidence you provide will not be treated as
confidential. It will be shared with the Copyright holder and / or their
agents.

Where such evidence is not forthcoming or not considered adequate the
sanction described in our Terms will apply, quited as follows :

3.6 Members responsible for acts prohibited in this Policy may have their
services terminated at NETSOURCE' discretion. If this Policy is violated,
the member agrees to pay NETSOURCE all costs arising from the violation,
including (but not limited to) transmission of said messages, the
receiving, processing, and storing of replies, whether to the member or to
NETSOURCE, and any other costs incurred. These costs will be billed hourly
at £100.00 per hour, with a minimum charge of £200.00 per incident. Payment
of such charges by member will not prevent NETSOURCE from seeking other
damages against the member.

The text of Netsource Terms can be read at : http://www.netsource.ie/terms/

We thank you for your cooperation in this matter. Your prompt response is requested.

Respectfully,

Netsource NOC Team

I do believe that in this country, we still have a presumption of innocence. That the onus is on Netsource to prove misuse rather on me to prove otherwise. I also don't like the idea that whatever information I give will not be confidential, and that Netsource may do with it what they will.

I replied offering my 60 day notice to cancel the service.

Well done netsource.... How many customers do you think you can lose in one week.

ciderandhavoc

Sounds like a response to bandwidth usage to be honest.

flamegrill

Simply put: Do you run file sharing apps on your pc in a manner that allows other people to download files/music etc from your pc?

Paul

The Brigadier

Of course it is.....

But I am on the SME €89ex VAT package each month. I just think it is heavy handed activity from Netsource.

But for the record and for every Netsource employee reading this,
I deny having trafficed any copyrighted material.

DeVore

I wonder if the ESB will monitor what people do with their electricity... if the Water Board will ensure that you dont drown anyone with their water (it is, after all, only rented).

The "we own the IP... that gives us an interest in your actions" argument is a load of old tosh.

Netsource seem intent on imploding.

DeV.

flamegrill

Originally posted by James Melody
Of course it is.....

But I am on the SME €89ex VAT package each month. I just think it is heavy handed activity from Netsource.

But for the record and for every Netsource employee reading this,
I deny having trafficed any copyrighted material.

So your admitting you allow people to connect to your pc and let them upload files etc from it? Be they copyrighted or not?

To be perfectly honest netsource can see exactly what your doing, but may be breaking some privacy laws. That I'm not too sure of, but they can do a packet analysis and can see streaming mp3 media or large rar's or what ever being uploaded/downloaded.

This data can stand up in court.

Paul

Cabaal

Originally posted by James Melody
Of course it is.....

But I am on the SME €89ex VAT package each month. I just think it is heavy handed activity from Netsource.

But for the record and for every Netsource employee reading this,
I deny having trafficed any copyrighted material.

Surely its upto the company to actually show that you used the service wrongly?
Actuall evidence on there part,

Hope the court system doesn't go this way...

The Brigadier

I denied having trafficed copyrighted material. At no point did I admit I had used file sharing programs.

I also have not admitted to playing Daikatana, Using Internet Explorer or any other activities I might get up to on my PC.

If Netsource think they can ask me to prove what I have done on my pc to them. And to allow them to hand this information out to whomever they choose without my knowledge or consent. Well, they have another thing coming.

I have given them notice, they have now lost ANOTHER customer.

I was perfectly happy prior to this. But I feel violated now.

What is next asking people to prove that they have not been accessing porn to catch sex offenders??

Asking people who drive to prove that they have never done so while under the influence??

People do have certain rights, and a set of terms and conditions does not negate these.

The Brigadier

Oh and can someone confirm for me that now I have given Netsource notice, they cannot now after this disconnect me and start charging me fees of €200??

The Brigadier

Originally posted by flamegrill
So your admitting you allow people to connect to your pc and let them upload files etc from it? Be they copyrighted or not?

To be perfectly honest netsource can see exactly what your doing, but may be breaking some privacy laws. That I'm not too sure of, but they can do a packet analysis and can see streaming mp3 media or large rar's or what ever being uploaded/downloaded.

This data can stand up in court.

Paul

According to Irish Privacy laws...It is illegal for Netsource to read my emails, or inspect my file transfers without my express permission. As such any evidence thus obtained is inadmissable in court.

What they can do is prove that amounts of data were transferred between IP addresses. Not a crime at this stage though....

flamegrill

Originally posted by James Melody
According to Irish Privacy laws...It is illegal for Netsource to read my emails, or inspect my file transfers without my express permission. As such any evidence thus obtained is inadmissable in court.

What they can do is prove that amounts of data were transferred between IP addresses. Not a crime at this stage though....

You are aware that under european and irish law all isps are supposed to keep data on their customers activities for up to 5 years. I think what they are doing is perfectly legal, again I'm not a solicitor so im not 100%.

Paul

The Brigadier

Yes I know this. They must keep logs of IPs visited.

This is to ensure that little jonny is not trying to hack the pentagon. But this is pretty much where these powers end.

They can be aware that jonny iconclast sent an email to George Bush. What they can't do is open it and find out what he said.

Again if they are complaining about P2P users. They can log and show that a transfer occured between IP1 and IP2. They can't open it and see what it is.

Cabaal

Originally posted by James Melody
They can log and show that a transfer occured between IP1 and IP2. They can't open it and see what it is.

True but they could confirm what the IP belongs to ie: DC++ Servor or a Kazaa Super Node etc

So they can say you connected to P2P systems and that they CAN be used to transmit illegal items but yes they cann't actually prove you've downloaded illegal items.

flamegrill

Originally posted by Cabaal
True but they could confirm what the IP belongs to ie: DC++ Servor or a Kazaa Super Node etc

So they can say you connected to P2P systems and that they CAN be used to transmit illegal items but yes they cann't actually prove you've downloaded illegal items.

Afair its not illegal to download anything. However it is illegal to share to out or make it available to the general public.

Cabaal

Originally posted by flamegrill
Afair its not illegal to download anything. However it is illegal to share to out or make it available to the general public.

I believe the RIAA/MPAA see it very differently (yes I know thats in the US) but if you download T3 or U2's latest album thats illegal.

I'm sure MS would see it as illegal if you download WinXP Pro.

But sure I'm not sharing it once I download it so its perfectly legal

Jonnie_Onion

How exactly do you prove that you haven't downloaded or uploaded copyrighted material? A complete list of your harddrive? It's seems a ludicrous notion to me. Seems they're just trying to offload their heavy downloaders.

dazberry

From an email sent to Netsource on the 13th May 2003 and the subsequent reply on the same day. The answer is more interesting than the question btw.

>Me
[3] As the SOHO product is supplied with a fixed IP address, I plan to implement a couple of TCP/IP services on a machine that will act as a firewalled gateway to my home office machine (to facilate remote access when I'm out and about). I have not noticed anything on the T&C in relation to this, is this ok?

>Louise McKeown
No problem with this, basically we deliver the DSL line to the phone termination point in your home, what you put behind the line thereafter is entirely at your discretion.

Originally posted by flamegrill
You are aware that under european and irish law all isps are supposed to keep data on their customers activities for up to 5 years. I think what they are doing is perfectly legal, again I'm not a solicitor so im not 100%.

Yes, I recall this and you are correct in that they are supposed to maintain this information, but are they entitled to act on that information. My understanding (which may be incorrect) was that the data retention was to faciliate access from law enforcement agencies - should the need arise, otherwise it raises a whole raft of privacy issues.

D.

Co33iE

by default when you install file sharing programs kazaa winmx etc, file sharing is enabled by default.

I think all netsource users should check to see if ther file sharing is enabled, most of us prolly are breaching the contract. :L(

pretty sad on netsources behalf tho, i dont see eircom/oceanfree/iol etc sending these emails to people on dialup/dsl.

think this is gonna be netsources new money making plan, get everyone on dsl to pay for misuse of service 200 euro starting then 100 euro per hour

flamegrill

I won't be paying any such fee.

gurramok

Its not illegal to use P2P networks.

They have to prove in a court of law that you have shared something that is deemed illegal which should be fun in this country

It needs the so-called copyright holder to have a record that a transaction actually occurred from your ip to their ip.

That part about NS charging for damages looks borderline dodgy as you have not been found guilty in a court of law of any wrongdoing yet !
Since when are an isp judge and jury penalising you ?

Btw, what p2p apps where you using ?

The Brigadier

I have not confirmed that I have ever used a file sharing program of any kind.

It is alleged by Netsource that I was using Direct Connect.

gurramok

I have used DC++ before for about 5 days, does it mean that i'm guilty of something ?

Never knew that using DC++ is now a criminal offence

Seriously, its either some copyright org that has noified them of your alleged activities or they are using you as a pawn to kick you of the service for allegedly been a big uploader.

ie...Smokescreen

PHB

Theres gotta be at least one lawyor on boards, I'll ask a law student friend of mine what she knows

oneweb

For you to provide 'evidence' that you have not done what they claim you have done, you should demand from them the evidence that they have of what you have apparently done.

If they can't provide that evidence (they're meant to disclose any information that they have about you on file as per the Freedom of Information Act, no?), then they're being pr!cks.

And I'm thinkin the convenience of they're short minimum contract is just not worth the state of what they're playing at :mad:

flamegrill

Even if he was reported, who the hell would have done it?

Unless they saw that his upstream was maxed out for days on end, then they took it upon themselves to go find out whats causing it etc. Found open ports that DC uses and assumed the worse ... who's to say he hasn't been infected with some back door trojan horse program or something ....

I don't think they have a leg to stand on, but they do reserve the right to kick you off etc etc.

Tis a bit mean of em ...

gurramok

Only evidence that NS must have of suspecting you did something illegal on p2p is they must of themselves downloaded a suspect file with name and viewed content from you.
It has been the job of RIAA in USA to do this under DMCA act which is non-existent in EU.

As oneweb say, ask them to show proof that you did something illegal.

Throwing you off the service and penalising you financially for allegedly doing something illegal on p2p needs to proved in court of law to have any basis for justification.

Last time I checked, isps were not policing their own backyards except for extreme cases of child porn/racial incitement etc..

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by James Melody
I have not confirmed that I have ever used a file sharing program of any kind.

It is alleged by Netsource that I was using Direct Connect.

Were you running any sort of server, http or FTP etc. that could have contained (intentionally or not) some material that was copywritten?
From the looks of that mail they sent, I would think someone complained to them (that's just my opinion though).

jesus_thats_gre

It seems pretty obvious that the owner of the copyrighted material, or a representative of them, have contacted Netsource about it. They are actively persuing people at the moment.


As far a Netsource goes, they have an obligation to log what you do for 5 years or so. They cannot actively monitor your activities unless they have a reason to do so, but if they fined something by accident, they are obligated to act on it if it is illegal.


Its either one of the above. Doubt someone dropped you in it.

The Brigadier

I wasn't running any type of server.

If the one of the American Bodies has complained to them....They have no obligation to do anything about it?

Mutant_Fruit

Provide evidence to this office that the service being rented by you from Netsource is not being used to offer or distribute copyrighted material

You cannot prove a negative in this case. Tell them to prove that you did something wrong. If they cannot prove you did something wrong, and provide eveidance of it, then you're innocent, and they should pay YOU 100eur an hour for wasting your time.

toxicater

Hi there.

The same thing happened in Norway (Where I used to by a really active leecher less then 6 months ago) and then "Telenor" was asked from someone to give out what ip's where used by different people for investigation. Who that someone was, I can't remember. (Telenor is the biggest isp in Norway btw...)

Now, what telenor did, was to refuse to give away this information as this would be a violation on laws regarding privacy.

I really can't understand why netsource would send you an email like this. But I suspect it could be the fact that some software maker (or something similar) wants to set an example. (As mentioned above here somewhere) I kind of find this hard to believe but it is indeed possible.

Another thing that has been said, but can't be said enough, is that programs like DC/DC++, kazaa, overnet, edonkey etc is NOT illegal at all. You break no law in setting up p2p software. You break a law when you download software that is copywrited and use it without paying the makers of it.

To me this whole thing sounds like a joke. Maybe netsource wants to get rid of heavy downloaders as said above. If this is something that came from them, and wasn't requested from a software company or something similar I really find it hard to beleive that it is legal. They have no right to tell you what to do online. And as you said yourself, how can you prove what you've been doing/not doing online? The answer is simple, you can't! If they have proof on you doing illegal stuff and have someone complaining about you, they should present that proof or keep their mouths shut imo.

toxicater

Just one more thing btw

I quote from that letter:

"These costs will be billed hourly at £100.00 per hour, with a minimum charge of £200.00 per incident. Payment of such charges by member will not prevent NETSOURCE from seeking other damages against the member."

What the f*** does this mean? Will they keep looking for crap against you anyway? From that sentence it sounds like they always look for things to "arrest" people by.

Then again, with the money they get per hour, I would probably do the same thing.

I suggest you call them and ask them what the hell this is all about.

Richard Dower

Originally posted by James Melody
But for the record and for every Netsource employee reading this,
I deny having trafficed any copyrighted material.

LOL...of course you do, to do otherwise would be rather stupid. But let's ger real here. The vast majority of users have downloaded illegal and copyrighted material.

I guarantee folks download mp3 and the latest DivX videos, Kazza, Warez etc.

I bet folks have also downloaded porn and other things of that nature, have i done so?

I'm not stupid enough to state so in public, one can assume these boards are being closely monitored.

toxicater

Last poster wrote this:

"LOL...of course you do, to do otherwise would be rather stupid. But let's ger real here. The vast majority of users have downloaded illegal and copyrighted material.
I guarantee folks download mp3 and the latest DivX videos, Kazza, Warez etc.
I bet folks have also downloaded porn and other things of that nature, have i done so?
I'm not stupid enough to state so in public, one can assume these boards are being closely monitored."

That is not the point. From the letter he received they don't even say who has filed this complaint or exactly what he has done that is illegal? By the way, as far as I remember, mp3 and divx is legal to download, as long as you delete it after 24 hours after download or something stupid like that. Warez, however is something else.

The point in a case like this I think, is that he as user is not the one who should prove himself not guilty. He needs to know who made this complaint and what proof they have on this. THEN he can start thinking about proving that this is not the case etc.

Richard Dower

Let's consider porn, court cases and such...it's not illegal to view images or have them in your Temp folder. What is illegal is to move any images to another folder or save them.

This is also the case for movies and mp3, my opinion is that this person has been downloading massive amounts of data, from Warez probably.

As a result and with customer complaints about crappy service Netsource are starting to crack down on people.

It's possible they are trying to move the heavy guys over to a cap...i strongly feel that right now the range of DSL products should be capped.

It's all new to Irish consumers, we're going banannas with this stuff and just downloading for the sake of downloading.

It's there...why not use it, hell i've no cap so i'm damn sho' 'nuff gonna get my monies worth outta them. You have the right since you paid for it.

I don't agree with what Netsource are doing, but i do feel they should impose a cap of say 10GB. That would stop all the bitching and people would calm down and monitor their usage.

I'm not a lawyer so i have no idea if Netsource can do the things they say. If it was me i would be gone in a shot...however i would like to see a strong person step up and challenge Netsource to prove their claims.

Get them into court and sue them, make it all public get the media involved, send emails...get Jerry Ryan on the case.

Make noises and we'll see then if they climb down, i totaly disagree with what Netsource have said to this customer...it's insulting and a scandal.

But i do firmly belive that caps, for the moment, are needed until people learn to use, and not abuse, the service properly. Maybe in future as more competition comes in and the infrastructure improves will we all be able to go uncapped and blistering speeds.

Right now we all need to use the service conservatively.

The Brigadier

Another point to raise on this is :

Netsource do not own the IP. They resell it from Eircom. For the same reasons that anyone complaining about levels of quality from Netsource is told it is eircoms fault...If anybody is to kick up a fuss it should be the rat.

Richard Dower

Anybody who rats out another online user is scum, IMO...i don't give a toss what anybody does on their PC. If you download pictures of sheep and jerk off...that's your thing.

But as a customer what i want is a reasonable service, a functional service. The ability to power on the PC and surf at anytime without problems.

When i want to download the latest Nero update or Win XP patch i'd like things to be in-line with that the DSL service say's it's supposed to do.

We just don't have the capacity and infrastructure right now to offer an uncapped DSL service with a 48.1 contention ratio.
It dosen't make sense right now until the DSL exchanges can allocate 8MB pipes per line.

If they offered a service of 20.1 or 8.1 at say €60 per month with a 4MB or 8MB pipe, i feel customers would be all over it. This would give everyone more then a fair shake.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by James Melody
Netsource do not own the IP. They resell it from Eircom.

Ripe allocate the IPs to the ISP.

The Brigadier

I was referring to Eircom as the rat...

Richard Dower

Sorry, well regardless...people have been known to rat on other users. Either way it's not cool to do.

flamegrill

Originally posted by Frank_Grimes
Ripe allocate the IPs to the ISP.

Exactly, netsource resell the product but all we see is Netsource IP's etc as the whole netsource-eircom interaction is using ATM.

Diabolus

If you want your mail to netsource to go somewhere i suggest you send it to this address.

thomas@netsource.ie

Thomas Bridge is the registrant for Netsource with RIPE

irishguy

having a 4mbit or 8mbit line with a contention ratio of 20:1 or 8:1 for €60 just wouldnt make money.that would mean at quite times you are getting a 4 or 8mbit line for €60 per month.a contention ratio of 20:1 on a 1mbit adsl line means that 20 adsl user use a 1mbit line to access the internet, the max speed they can get is 1mbit at anytime slowing down to 1/20 of a mbit if everyone was using it at the same time.what they should do is have different packages with different contention ratios and also offer packages with burst speeds i.e they could have 240 people on a 4mbit line which would be the same as a 30:1 contention ratio on a 512kbps line but would burst at 4mbit [this wouldnt work on adsl it would only be sutiable for VDSL or wirless internet access] this is a really good idea and is simular to what chorus are using at the moment for there powernet service

Baud

Just a reminder that the RIAA/MPAA/<insert random american copyright thingy> don't make any differences between IPs. If you've made their radar, expect your ISP to get mails to abuse at asking them to stop you. They have no jurisdiction to actually do anything, but I think once the ISP has been notified, if they don't do something, they can get in trouble as well. A friend of mine got hassle over Napster when the crackdown happened there, and he was living in Ireland, not the US. So, even if you're pissed off, it's probably worth your while asking for your account manager or whatever the equivalent in your ISP if something's going on.

L.

gurramok

Can thomasb from NS who is browsing this forum enlighten us as to what on earth is going on ?
Are we all on NS to get the red letter email like James did ?

Will NS eventually tell me that i've been throttled to the extent that web browsing on boards is worse than 33 kBs dialup ?? :mad:

bkehoe

These emails to people who share copyrighted files on p2p networks are quite common in the EU. Many people in Denmark were kicked off their ISPs a few months ago for sharing copyrighted files, and closer to home, I know that Esat has been ringing up some of its adsl customers to inform them that they received a complaint from a copyright holder about a file they were sharing and should immediatly stop sharing it. The copyright holders have bots which search through p2p networks searching for copyrighted content, and when they find something they send off an email to the isp responsible for the users ip address.

Nitrox

Apart from making money did anyone of you not wonder why a static IP and domain was minimum requirement to get NetFarce??

This means that when any copyright holder descover some IP is getting thgeir stuff for free all they have to do is reverse lookup the domain name and owner for that IP, in any Netsource case the IP will point directly to you.
So NetFarce dont have to worry about court injunctions or any legal babl from people who want the names of their customers, it is all Public.

Hugh_C

Originally posted by Richard Dower
I'm not stupid enough to state so in public, one can assume these boards are being closely monitored.

Ooooh! One suspects a conspiracy theorist in the house.

Does one really think anybody could be bothered to monitor these boards? One doubts it.

DaithiSurfer

Imagine your surprise when you take netfarce to court and their solicitor says to you.
'So Mr.X, do you deny that you downloaded this movie of a man shagging a sheep on the 6th of june'

They are ****. I can't possibly say anything good about them at this point.
Perhaps there should be a thread here called 'Reasons NOT to get netsource'
Lets see how big that will get.
In fact i think i'll start one.

Jokah

Came across this in the Netsources Terms and Conditions:

"2.2 The Customer agrees to be bound by the monthly download allowance attaching to its chosen NETSOURCE DSL product. "

Interesting. Since they offer a "NO CAP" service surely then there is no download allowance so therefore what they are doing to you is wrong.

"6.6 The Customer agrees that from time to time it may be necessary for NETSOURCE to temporarily suspend the Facility during periods of repair, essential maintenance or alteration or improvement to NETSOURCE telecommunications network or otherwise in accordance with the law. Where possible NETSOURCE will give the Customer notice prior to such suspension and NETSOURCE shall restore the Facility as soon as possible after such suspension."

Just out of interest did they tell you they were restricting your cap before you found out? Or did they suspend it and then tell you. Unfortunately the term "where possible" is in this clause which means they can tell you when they like.

Then there is this

"NETSOURCE reserve the right to change service without prior notice."

Pity..........

"I think their problems are from a Marketing / Public Relations angle. Whoever is looking after these has been making some pretty serious boo-boos. "

I have to agree with James Melody on this point. They have mucked up in this area.

It's a sad story Daithi, it really is.

Hope it works out for you.

ixoy

Originally posted by Nitrox
This means that when any copyright holder descover some IP is getting thgeir stuff for free all they have to do is reverse lookup the domain name and owner for that IP, in any Netsource case the IP will point directly to you.
So NetFarce dont have to worry about court injunctions or any legal babl from people who want the names of their customers, it is all Public.

So does this mean that if you just leech, and never share, that you're fine? I mean there should be no way of them being able to look at what you're currently downloading. All seems a bit odd.