New Forum [Horse Racing]

PH01

Finally figured out where to put this.

A couple of days ago Dubaim posted a suggestion in the 'Sports|Sports' forum about a new forum for Horse Racing. I also think it's a good idea.

What do you think?

scojones

excellent idea

Sposs

What would it be for? exchanging tips?

PH01

Originally posted by Sposs
What would it be for? exchanging tips?

Exchanging tips? Yeah sure, that of course would be one of the main reasons. And isn't it one of main things that come up in conversation?

But I'd imagine the forum would be there for other Horse Racing related topics like which race course is the best and why, who are the new and upcoming Irish trainers and where do you think Shergar is buried?

There's load to talk about in Horse Racing and not just gambling.

BuffyBot

The only thing is it will be targetted by a lot of scammers as witnessed on other racing boards. It would need careful watching

Sposs

Originally posted by PH01

There's load to talk about in Horse Racing and not just gambling.

Gambling is Horse Racing,it wouldn't exist without it,and to be honest i really don't think there that many people who want to discuss up and coming trainers and such.

Yavvy

I would be interested in this fourm

Victor

Can we change the title to just "Racing" to include pig and ostrich racing?

sceptre

Originally posted by PH01
and where do you think Shergar is buried?

Garden of Remembrance of course. No-one would think of looking there.

Like BuffyBot said, if this goes ahead you'd want some tight moderation (from people who know something about racing big doggies of course. And, er pigs). It's something that seems to attract quite some bit of muppetry.


I've shag-all interest in it myself to be honest, though I've been seen at the new Cork dog track a few times, brought there by this hot chick that I've been seen out in public with

Hobart

Excelent idea. I actually do some work for the Irish Field and think that a board of this nature would/could contain a lot more than tips. Horse Racing is a fantastic and popular sport (Proabably on a par with Soccer in this country) and I think a board dedicated to it would be justified.

2 Thumbs up from me.

Shamo

Great idea, another 2 thumbs up

PH01

Originally posted by Sposs
Gambling is Horse Racing,it wouldn't exist without it,and to be honest i really don't think there that many people who want to discuss up and coming trainers and such.

Gambling is a major element to Racing but what isn't. And horse racing would survive without gambling be it in a smaller way.

But hey lets not get on our high horses here and start debating the virtues of gambling. Everything in moderation and all that, and gambling on horses is jolly good fun!

Runfree

Hmmm I really like idea. Im quite into the Horse racing myself. Won myself 40 euros yesterday.

And the sister trains them so I can get very good tips.

RunFree

PH01

Originally posted by Runfree
Hmmm I really like idea. Im quite into the Horse racing myself. Won myself 40 euros yesterday.

And the sister trains them so I can get very good tips.

RunFree

Runfree, you're the kinda person a forum like this need. Someone with connections. Someone who we can sponge off, sorry I mean, someone who'll tell all about how great it is to have a sister who trains horses in Ireland.

Was that at Clonmel? And to win that €40 what was stake? And a good win yesterday for Allineedisamiracle who came in at 12/1. I didn't have anything on her myself but had a 'funny feeling' that she would win.

Runfree

Originally posted by PH01
Runfree, you're the kinda person a forum like this need. Someone with connections. Someone who we can sponge off, sorry I mean, someone who'll tell all about how great it is to have a sister who trains horses in Ireland.

Was that at Clonmel? And to win that €40 what was stake? And a good win yesterday for Allineedisamiracle who came in at 12/1. I didn't have anything on her myself but had a 'funny feeling' that she would win.

Thanks and you can spunge of me anytime but I will not be held responsible if you loose money.

And it was clonmel. True Commotion came 3rd.
5 euro EW. 18:35 at 10/1.

But I want this forum anyway. I love horses and the racing that comes with it.

Cheers, RunFree

anyway back to work for me. Talk to you l8r.

Repli

If the primary use of this board is going to be giving tips.. I'd be highly opposed to the forum.. Basically because no tip is 100% - I've seen everything from 3 horse races with the 2 favourites falling leaving a 66/1 shot winning the race, 1/9 and other odds-on shots coming last and heavily backed tips coming last.

I worked in Ladbrokes for the summer and whether you like it or not, the bookies always win. I've seen people win €500 and €600 and lose it within minutes. The worst case being a man losing €2000 on a single bet backing a tip he got. Gambling is a disgusting habit - I wouldn't recommend anyone getting into it and I think the creation of this board would encourage it somehow.

Having said that I've learned quite a lot about horse and greyhound racing in the few months I worked there and agree it can be quite an interesting sport at times. And if this forum was actually going to involve the discussion of breeding/trainers/jockeys/handicapping/racecourses it might prove to be an interesting forum. Although anything that even slightly encourages gambling is a big no-no in my opinion.

DeVore

I understand that gambling is an emotive topic but much as I dont like (some) Christians because of the way they conduct themselves, I still think they (as a group) deserve the right to be able to converse... its not always personal favouritism that rules things in and out (though in some cases it is.... cf: Scientologists!)

I think a forum on the industry of racing would be a good thing but I'm not going to start allowing tips and betting related stuff to creep in...

What are "scammers" and what do they do?

DeV.

Hobart

Hmmm. A racing board without Tips. Don't think it would work. A bit like haveing a Holiday board and not being able to reccomend destinations. Look betting, like mastrabation, is in the hand of the beholder one can talk about it for years put one does not have to act upon it. More of a self control thing.
As for scammers. What I think is meant is this:

A fancied horse is running in a two horse race and in odds on. So a scammer tips the non-fancied horse so as the price of the fancied horse will go back out in order to maximise on the return for the scammer (who had the fancied horse backed all along).

Anyhow most people that have an interest in racing would not take a tip to save their life.

Repli

Originally posted by DeVore
I think a forum on the industry of racing would be a good thing but I'm not going to start allowing tips and betting related stuff to creep in...

It's a catch-22 situation there because gambling is the core of the horseracing industry..

Originally posted by DeVore
What are "scammers" and what do they do?

In a web forum context I can't see how it's possible.. Within the bookies there are hundreds of tricks and scams going on.. For example placing bets on races after they've gone off.. to stealing back prices.. I could go on - gambling attracts a lot of scumbags you see.. I'm curious myself about how it's done through web forums.. maybe BuffyBot could explain what it is or give us an example of an occurrence of it

Repli

Originally posted by Hobart
A fancied horse is running in a two horse race and in odds on. So a scammer tips the non-fancied horse so as the price of the fancied horse will go back out in order to maximise on the return for the scammer (who had the fancied horse backed all along).

I don't see how that would be a problem on boards.. Literally thousands of bets would have to be placed on the outsider to change the price slightly..

Hobart

Originally posted by Repli
I don't see how that would be a problem on boards.. Literally thousands of bets would have to be placed on the outsider to change the price slightly..

Not true at all.

Depends on the meeting, odds, bookie, amount of money wagered by the scammer etc (Not all races are run in Ascot or Cheltenham you know) .... I was asked for an example and I gave one.

dubaim

As it was me who started all this off, are we then going to get a forum for racing?

Yes, betting is intrinsically linked but is only a part of a large industry, there are many other issues.

Previous comments re its a dangerous mugs game or some such, probably is when you look at the typical betting shop punter. Not surprised you feel that way after working there during the summer, but you are very wrong with comments such as the bookmaker always wins (not on horse racing,witness all the dross you now get in shops, helping bookie profits, numbers games, virtual racing etc).

It's now estimated that about 10% of punters are now making a profit on racing, whereas before the reduction in tax (nil now in the UK, and on phone accounts) plus the advent of exchanges on the net, it was probably only about 2% - withough banging my own drum, I speak from experience.

Now, are we getting a separate thread, for what is probably the most popular spectator sport in this country, or not?

Hobart

Nice attitude mate. That'll get you listened to. Keep up the good work.

Muppet:(

Runfree

Ok so the forum doesn't need to have to be for gambling. But saying that it will probably come up on the forum in discussion.

For example discussion of upcoming horses in training. Things that could be said is:

Watch out for this one with the bookies.
Its a possible winner.

Such expressions might come across to people as a tip. Now I am very fond of Horse racing but I for one would not encourage people to take such expression in a way that they put all their money on a horse and loose it because maybe the ground was to soft for that horse and couldn't get a rhythem going.

But things like that could be discussed and it could be a good forum if managed well.

Horses, trainers, jockeys and training guides can be discussed. Also fees and items like this could be discussed.

RunFree

Repli

Originally posted by dubaim
It's now estimated that about 10% of punters are now making a profit on racing, whereas before the reduction in tax (nil now in the UK, and on phone accounts) plus the advent of exchanges on the net, it was probably only about 2% - withough banging my own drum, I speak from experience.

Can you tell me what source you got that 10% from.. I think it's very inaccurate.. The bookies keep a record of every bet from regular customers (they are called monitored customers) to check if that particular customer is making a profit.. They are done weekly/monthly and yearly.. Now of course some punters will make a profit in the week, maybe even the month, but I can assure you if they are betting regularly they will not make a profit in the long run 99.9% of the time. In the shop I worked in there was roughly 25 monitored customers.. .. not ONE of the monitored customers had ever made a profit on their yearly sheet.. It's a fools game - agreeably though there are some people who bet on sports (not nearly as frequently as those who bet on horses) and those people make a profit a lot of the time..

but you are very wrong with comments such as the bookmaker always wins (not on horse racing,witness all the dross you now get in shops, helping bookie profits, numbers games, virtual racing etc).

Agree with you there.. but maybe only 1 in every 10 bets is a speciality bet (sport, virtual horses/dogs, events, etc - excluding lotto) but these bets such as lotto/sport tend to pay out a LOT more than regular bets so it balances out imo.

Runfree

I know you are having an intresting discussion here lads but really do you want the forum or don't you.

Horse racing isn't all about gambling offcoarse but it is a certain aspect of racing and maybe yes small tips can be given but I dont support it.

Actually scrap that. no gambling but it is a good place to discuss other horseracing matters.

RunFree

Hobart

Repli: you need to take your blinkers off (Pun intended). If the regular punter lost his stake 999 times out of 1000, then there would be no such thing as a regular punter. Don't base your 'facts' on a summers experience in a bookmakers. Not one bookie mad a profit at Cheltenham this year. Not one. I base that on tote betting btw.There are plenty of professional horse racing gamblers out there, a lot of them rich and a lot of them broke. But 1 in 1000? Come on now.

Hobart

Originally posted by Runfree
I know you are having an intresting discussion here lads but really do you want the forum or don't you.

Horse racing isn't all about gambling offcoarse but it is a certain aspect of racing and maybe yes small tips can be given but I dont support it.

Actually scrap that. no gambling but it is a good place to discuss other horseracing matters.

RunFree

The discussion is about the merits and content of the proposed board. Lets not cloud the issue by posting wildly inaccurate 'facts'. All issues should be discussed. And Tips do not equal gambling.

Runfree

Originally posted by Hobart
And Tips do not equal gambling.

Now thats an intresting fact as I do agree with you there.

Just because you think a horse might do well doesn't mean that you want some stranger to bet his lifesavings on the horse.

But the temptation is there however to put money on the horse.

dubaim

I thought it was an industry estimation due mainly to the reduction in tax percentages, the signifianct increase in information out there (ratings/form analysis/the handful of good tipster out there, charging for their services (against the majortiy who are fairly hopeless), as well as the advent of the betting exchanges over the last 2/3 years, with enhanced odds, in excess of those priced up by the major firms.

You are reffering only to punters coming into the shops, yes, I agree they are going to lose, though they may have winning days/weeks/months.

Even in my small circle of friends/colleagues of similar persuasion I have those who are well behind but also more and more making it pay - we may all be winning less than those who are losing overall, but in profit we are - due to disciplined wagering. Probably the most important word is that, DISCIPLINE. I keep precise records of every investment as well, as that what I deem it to be, in many ways no different to investing on the stock market.

I once worked in a shop as well, and can only agree with your comments but for those such as me the withdrawal/lowering of tax was the turning point. Yes, a small profit in relation to my turnover, which use to mostly get eaten by the tax.

I think we've started a race forum already Yippee!!

PH01

Some very good insight there from Repli and a lot of those points would be very welcome in a Horse Racing forum - and a good eye opener to those who gamble. And a forum would be a great place to trash these points out.

And on gambling it's like what I said before, and like with most things, it's OK in moderation.
And if the forum turns into a mostly a tips forum then so be it, as in a forum you'll have the opportunity to let that 'tipster' know that they were wrong (or something stronger).

I'm for a Horse Racing forum warts and all.

Imposter

I'd be for this forum too.

Wrt tips I don't see a problem for a few reasons. If someone is not a regular poster and shows themselves to be somewhat reliable/knowledgable none of the regulars would trust them much, if at all.

If 'scammers' appear I'm sure there'll be enough knowledgable people here who would point out this scam.

As for those who are against it for encouraging gambling as Devore said there are people promoting religions here (Not to mention drink, cigs and drugs), all of which certain people dissapprove of.

Plus such a forum would bring up interesting topics to discuss aside from any gambling threads.

Runfree

Can I just say that I was reading the Leopardstown Race Card. I went for all the races and picked who would win or get a place.

5 races E/W and 3 Win

And well I had 6 out of 8 that I would have won on if I put money on it. With horse racing you can look at previous performance so therefore you can see how they will do.

Oh and if one of them horses I thought I would have guessed EW thatn it would have been 7 out of 8 races. Just one race where I got no horse in the top 3 or 4. In smaller races its just 1st 2nd and 3rd that count when you bet EW.

All up for this Forum though.

PS not mainly for the tips.

Morgans

I'm a big horse racing fan. Its not all about tips, gambles, its about the love of racing. If you can back your judgement to make some money even better. I dont think this should stop a forum beign set up on it.

Everyone must act responsibly. You cannot bet in a bookies unless you are over 18, and you need a credit card/laser card to bet online. The assumption should be made that all people reading teh forum can judge for themselves on what they want to gamble and to what level. I would be surprised if someone put up a tip here and everyone on the forum decided to put their mortgage on. Id they did they are so stupid that tehy would have lost their money some way.

What teh board should discuss is horse racing in general. Tips are a part of this, but the tips should not be taken as gospel by readers who think it is an easy way to make money. Tips lose more times than they win, but they are useful as extra bits of information. After a while, it will be easy to separare good infomration from bad.

Hobart

Originally posted by Morgans
I'm a big horse racing fan. Its not all about tips, gambles, its about the love of racing. If you can back your judgement to make some money even better. I dont think this should stop a forum beign set up on it.

Everyone must act responsibly. You cannot bet in a bookies unless you are over 18, and you need a credit card/laser card to bet online. The assumption should be made that all people reading teh forum can judge for themselves on what they want to gamble and to what level. I would be surprised if someone put up a tip here and everyone on the forum decided to put their mortgage on. Id they did they are so stupid that tehy would have lost their money some way.

What teh board should discuss is horse racing in general. Tips are a part of this, but the tips should not be taken as gospel by readers who think it is an easy way to make money. Tips lose more times than they win, but they are useful as extra bits of information. After a while, it will be easy to separare good infomration from bad.

What he said!!

Runfree

Originally posted by Hobart
What he said!!

I second that.

Repli

Is this getting a board or not.. I'm intrigued

Runfree

Originally posted by Repli
Is this getting a board or not.. I'm intrigued

Hmmm only time will tell unless Devore says we can have it right now.(hint, hint)


RunFree

PH01

Originally posted by Runfree
Hmmm only time will tell unless Devore says we can have it right now.(hint, hint)


RunFree

I'd say it's only matter of time before the honourable, great and good Davore makes the decision we all would wish for?

DeVore

I'm still mulling this one over. You make some decent points though, so I'm inclined to try it out. I'm going to Phone A Friend and run it past the other Admins. I cant think of any decent reason not to but it has a whiff about it... a certain Cologne De Muppé.... if you get me...

Gotta love dubaim though... not a wet day in the place and he's snapping his fingers ... he'll learn...

DeV.

dubaim

DeVore

Maybe I've been on assertiveness training for message board users course........................if you don't ask, you don't get..................what's the point of sitting on the fence anyway?

PH01

If we don't get a Horse Racing forum I'm going to go into a great big sulk

Gordon

Originally posted by dubaim
get..................what's the point of sitting on the fence anyway?

You have somewehere to sit.

You also have two views.

O2Suck

yeah great idea....horse racing forum please

Runfree

Originally posted by PH01
If we don't get a Horse Racing forum I'm going to go into a great big sulk

Me too!!

By the way Dev. Would you like to do a 50/50 on that?

A) Yes(we get the forum)
No (we all sulk)

50/50 reveals answer A!

PH01

It was a great days racing at Listowel yesterday. Would be great to have a forum in which to talk about it?

Runfree

IT WOULD

Morgans

Devore, not trying to tell you your job or nothing but all forums can attract muppets, its how well they are ignored thats the solution. MUppets can post what they like but if they are ignored, no harm is being caused. They will leave.

DeVore

Aye, sorry, I've been kinda ignoring this because I wanted a chance to think about it. Of course, having had that chance I did other stuff and still havent thought about it.

I know this much. I dont want tips on this board as it will just get ugly and I'm not wild about the idea anyway.

I *do* inherently like to support what people want to chat about so ... witht that in mind, can we look to work on a charter here before I create the forum? Just so its clear what the forum is for?

So in summary... yes I will create this forum, theres clearly support for it. I'd like to break from tradition though and make the very first thing we do in it, to sort out a charter even before we have a mod or two.

I'll create it today and it will be in the nav tomorrow.

DeV.

PH01

Originally posted by DeVore
I know this much. I dont want tips on this board as it will just get ugly and I'm not wild about the idea anyway.

Everybody who talks about horse racing always end up talking about tips. And it will be hard to avoid. So if you don't want tips in the forum then don't create a 'Horse Racing' forum, as the Mods will have a full time job closing down all those posts that have 'tips' in them.

On the other hand, if you state in the charter that 'tips' should be given or come with a 'Health Warning' (along with gambling), and to anyone posting tips they must provide 'research data' and 'references' to back up tips, a horse racing forum would be more workable.

Morgans

have to say i agree.