Competition Fighting

Runfree

Hi all,

Just wondering if this ever occured to anyone.

If you study certain kinds of Martial Arts you can't actually enter in Competition fighting now am I the lucky one that Kenpo Ju Jitsu happens to be one off them.

My question to you is do you know any other types that would be banned from using in Competition Fighting.

Cheers,

RunFree

tunney

Or could the non-competition martial arts be the lucky ones in that their martial arts may _actually work_ in self defence?

Runfree

Originally posted by tunney
Or could the non-competition martial arts be the lucky ones in that their martial arts may _actually work_ in self defence?

Actually you are making a good point there because my thought on karate are slim to none.

My reason being is that all the straight punching is going to get you no where in a street fight..

RunFree

tunney

True, but then very few "martial arts" have practical applications. Hence a stricter distinction between "competition martial arts" and "combat martial arts" is needed I think. Suppose its all about what you want to get out of it.

meatball

Non-competitive martial arts are dancing by another name.

If techniques cannot be tested in competitive combat there is no way to know whether they will actually work.

A thai roundhouse works. An armbar works. Tai-otoshi works. Imitating a monkey doesn't.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
Or could the non-competition martial arts be the lucky ones in that their martial arts may _actually work_ in self defence?

Why does competition prevent a martial art working in a self-defence situation? Are you saying a good thai boxer or vale tudo fighter is no better off in a scrap then your average joe sixpack?

tunney

You average Joe SixPack experienced street fighter would detroy the average experienced competition martial artist. its just not a fair fight, one has combat experience, one has competition. Bye bye competitive martial artist. Street fighter every time.

meatball

Joe Sixpack will beat Fedor? Nogueira? Tito Ortiz?

tunney

An experienced street fighter might not beat the worlds best competition martial artists(then again they might), but they will beat most competition fighters.

Of course most people here probably are competition fighters and will refuse to believe this.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
You average Joe SixPack experienced street fighter would detroy the average experienced competition martial artist.

I agree with this. That's not to say there's no merit in competition though. I think competition would push you to obtain better fitness/become a better fighter. Any martial art that has no form of sparring/competition in it I'd be wary of. There's an article I read related to this recently here:

(it's about halfway down the page, under the heading 'a tired debate'

http://www.straightblastgym.com/matt.html

Lemming

You're all overlooking something simple.

Your average joe-scumbag doesn't approach a fight with a martial arts mentality. You're trying to put a martial arts layer on top of that.

He's going to go for what's at hand, quick, easy, and gets his job done. By the time you've figured out that he's approaching right hand and left foot forward and is ripe for "move X" you've been pummelled into the ground (and hopefully not been stabbed).

This isn't a case of "my art is better than your art 'cause ...". It comes down to the individual and the situation. Being a great martial arts fighter is no substitute for having some credible street-smarts.

tunney

True, fitness can help you in your fighting, BUT the average street fight is over in seconds not minutes and fitness is not a primary concern.

tunney

This isn't a case of "my art is better than your art 'cause ...".

Very very very true.

You've basically said what I wanted to say in a much better way than I was able to.

meatball

http://www.straightblastgym.com/matt.html

That article confirms what I am saying. There are no 'magic' techniques that streetfighters will be able to use that a competitive MMA fighter will not also be able to use. You may try to poke at my eye, or bite me, but guess what? I'll take you down, I'll have mount, and it will be a lot easier for me to stick my thumb in your eye than the other way round.

Lemming

Originally posted by tunney
BUT the average street fight is over in seconds not minutes

That's even assuming the word "fight" applies. More often than not a 'street-fight' consists of some scumbag walking past someone else and hitting them a belt when they're unawares. Then hitting them again when they're lying in the groundin a daze.

Anyway, dumb larry ... that "tired debate" article raises some heckles in the back of my mind. I'm not sure quite what it is, but it smells of agenda.

Runfree

Just as I thought that combat martial arts are mainly better then competative martial arts.

Cheers

RunFree

tunney

I also read that article. its a posting on the net. It doesn't make anything you say true or untrue. Its a badly written posting at that.

dumb larry

Originally posted by Lemming
You're all overlooking something simple.
This isn't a case of "my art is better than your art 'cause ...".

Yes it is. Put your average semi-contact/patterns guy up against your average full-contact striker/grappler and see what happens.

Being a great martial arts fighter is no substitute for having some credible street-smarts.

Certainly martial arts should make you reasonably fit, but there's no cure for idiocy like

tunney

Yeah, that article was pretty crap and was a vain attempt to hype up a specific art. Which unless I'm mistaken involves alot of grappling. Which as anyone with an ounce of cop on knows is useless "on the street"(god I hate that expression)

tunney

Yes it is. Put your average semi-contact/patterns guy up against your average full-contact striker/grappler and see what happens.

Didn't want to get into this but since you started it - put you average competitive guy up against your average combatative guy and see what happens.

meatball

The article points out that there are techniques that may be used on the street and not in competition.
It then goes on to point out that a fighter trained in MMA will be in a position to use these techniques IN ADDITION to his base in MMA. He will in fact be in a better position to use them, and so will win.

tunney

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/index.html

A great site for street-fighting. But more importantly avoidance of.

tunney

Meatball, I really hope you don't find the flaws in your argument out the hard way.

meatball

Grappling is useless on the street? Tunney, have you ever actually been in a streetfight? It doesn't look like a kata. Often no strikes will even connect before there is a clinch. If we clinch, and you cannot grapple, you are going to sleep.

dumb larry

Originally posted by Lemming
Anyway, dumb larry ... that "tired debate" article raises some heckles in the back of my mind. I'm not sure quite what it is, but it smells of agenda.

Well, obviously the guys agenda is promoting the idea that learning patterns and fingerpokes all day is useless unless you can wrestle/box/clinch properly. A fairly sound idea I think.

There's one of those straightblast gyms in dublin somewhere actually, i looked it up ages ago but it's too far from where I live for me to go there I think. They had a web-site but I can't remember the url.

tunney

Say we do clinch, say we do grapple, say you are putting me to sleep, see that shadow right behind you? Thats my mate stabbing you in the kidneys.

tunney

Grappling leaves you too exposed.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

And before you dismiss the opinons of Marc MacYoung, research who you are dismissing. And hes not associated with _any_ martial art so hes hardly biased.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/index.html

A great site for street-fighting. But more importantly avoidance of.

Seen that site before tunney, it's good. What I'm simply saying is that being a good at boxing, in the clinch and wrestling will make you better off if you actually get in a streetfight. You're far better off being physically fit and knowing these things than NOT knowing them!.

Competition makes you better at these things, therefore it's good.

Runfree

Ok kinda going off topic here but I like the debate going at the moment so keep it coming guys.

Also put in if you know what other kinds of MA are banned from Competition fighting.

Also what I find is if you don't train properly then your not going to use it properly if you get into a fight. Now I am against street fighting but still.

Anyway when we train we throw a punch as if we mean it. We hit for the face and if you don't bloke well then...lights out. This way you learn to block properly and your technique will improve aswell(i find anyway) and if you don't do this then I find you won't do properly in training then you'll do it wrong on the street and probably get severely injured.

RunFree

tunney

Competition makes you better at these things, therefore it's good.

I understand yuor logic but I believe that it is flawed. If someone trains and competes and has it drummed into them that they should not break peoples knees as their first attack then when on the street they will be less likely to try to break someones knee first off. When hand-to-hand is being thought in the military, knees are the first thing they are trained to take out. Competition fighting rules this out. END RAMBLE

knowing these things than NOT knowing them

A little bit of knowledge is a dnagerous thing

BUt I agree with teh fitness point

tunney

Also put in if you know what other kinds of MA are banned from Competition fighting.

Pencak Silat doesn't/can't compete. Harder forms of Kung Fu too me thinks.

As for training like you mean it. Thats a fair point - but it applies to everything, not jsut martial arts. Look at the top GAA players, every training sessions is treated like a competitive match, every ball is fought for and every tackle is hard. Training properly is essential in everything.

Lemming

Originally posted by dumb larry

Competition makes you better at these things, therefore it's good.

being good at competition fighter makes you good at fighting at a competition level. Not at a street level. Two different "arenas".

I'll say this time and agian until it sinks in.

Competition fighting is "honourable" combat with rules governing when you fight, what you can and cannot do, and what targets you can go for. More importantly, it dictates when you MUST stop, either through a time-frame or at the behest of an authority figure.

Street fighting has NONE of the above in it. It is dirty, unpleasant, utterly ruthless, predatory and more often than not very quick.

Trying to fight a street fight like a competition fighter will get you creamed. Hell, fighting a street fight whilst trying to equate it with martial arts is probably still a really bad idea.

At the end of the day my point is that they are utterly different beasts, and there is no logical flow between them.

Best thing you can do when faced with a street fight is to get the f*ck out of there fast before it ever begins.

meatball

Let Marc enter the ring with two professional fighters and be the winner. Then I will believe his theories. Until then, that page is speculation and hearsay.

As for fighting someone with a knife, unless he is completely useless, you are ****ing boned.

Tunney, forward kicks to the knee have been legal in many Vale Tudo competitions and have not proved effective.

Runfree, have you ever seen a boxer block a punch? They don't, they keep their guard up and attempt to slip or duck. Real punches are too fast to block.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
Grappling leaves you too exposed.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/grappling.html

And before you dismiss the opinons of Marc MacYoung, research who you are dismissing. And hes not associated with _any_ martial art so hes hardly biased.

I've read his stuff before. I know it's best to hit,then run. I'm just saying that it's also useful to know how to box/grapple/clinch.

To take as an example the one time I got caught in anything resembling a fight myself:

My friend and I were walking down the road late at night, he was really drunk, there was nobody around. I saw a fellow walking up the road also looking fairly hammered, so I crossed to the other side. My friend was slow crossing though, so when el scumbag reached him he smacked him in the face, knocking him to the ground, breaking his glasses, then he started advancing on me. I scooted back a few feet, then he turned around, booted my friend in the stomach and walked off (only to be arrested by the gardai).

I knew nothing about any martial arts then and was woefully unfit, but had I been an experienced boxer/clincher/grappler, I doubt I would have much trouble stopping the guy, who was shorter than I was (he wouldn't have been inflicting further harm on my friend for one thing). Therefore, I think there is an advantage to knowing these things.

If you need to stand your ground, surely having these skills is better than not having them, whatever about taking somebody to the ground, at least being able to strike, clinch, trip and guard yourself well is a help.

tunney

Marc MacYoung is full of shiot but the lad you quoted is right in yuor opinion because you agree with your lad.

Let Marc enter the ring with two professional fighters and be the winner.

You've missed the point. He won't enter the ring with them. He'd ahve broken into their houses the night before the fight was meant to have happened and beaten them with baseball bats while they slept.

Peace

IMO in a street fight i would even try to fight like i fight in competitions. You indeed would get spread all over the footpath.

However in a streeet fight if you have to think about move X against Move Y then again, you dead. If it comes naturaly and you move without even thinking about it then thats where the advantage lies.

Mr Nacker is thinking i'm gonna slap him right in the face with this one whereas if you're moving without even thinking about it and you're quick then its not much effort to finnish someone off.

I think competition fighting/sparring is very good in this sense. You learn to move very quickly in compettion fighting and in a fight speed is life.

Onec the person knows when to draw the line and knows that the stiff thatgoes on in the ring won't fly on the street then yeah, i think the martial artist will knock bits off you average scum bag.

This all depends of the level of the martial artist in question, ofcourse.

Lemming

Originally posted by Peace

Mr Nacker is thinking i'm gonna slap him right in the face with this one whereas if you're moving without even thinking about it and you're quick then its not much effort to finnish someone off.

I think competition fighting/sparring is very good in this sense. You learn to move very quickly in compettion fighting and in a fight speed is life.

And here-in lies the problem with martial-arts people in street-fights. You're thinking along the lines of a martial arts fight. You expect your opponent to do something martial-arts related (subconciously), when in fact Mr.Nacker is thinking "i'm gonna slap him right in the face" since that's what's going to do it best for him, not because it'll open his opponent up and allow him to do some brutally painful throw/kick/punch.

I'd not advocate doing an art because it espouses that it's "better for street fighting" since that is entirely subjective and leads to a false sense of security for the person involved. They then wander around thinking "I'm hard" and find out the hard way that they're not. If they're really unlucky they'll also discover how quickly it takes to bleed to death.

I find it quite worrying that some people here are doing that, or are of the opinion that once you do a "combat art" you are hard as nails and can take on all comers. I think some serious reality checking is needed.

Runfree

Originally posted by meatball

Runfree, have you ever seen a boxer block a punch? They don't, they keep their guard up and attempt to slip or duck. Real punches are too fast to block.

ok point taken but still if you don't train effectively then you won't fight effictively.

I was just stating that point has nothing to do with blocking in general. Just to clarify that point. But keeping ure gaurd is an important point.

RunFree

dumb larry

Originally posted by Lemming
being good at competition fighter makes you good at fighting at a competition level. Not at a street level. Two different "arenas".

I'll say this time and agian until it sinks in.

Competition fighting is "honourable" combat with rules governing when you fight, what you can and cannot do, and what targets you can go for. More importantly, it dictates when you MUST stop, either through a time-frame or at the behest of an authority figure.

Street fighting has NONE of the above in it. It is dirty, unpleasant, utterly ruthless, predatory and more often than not very quick.

OK, as an example of competition fighting, let's take muay thai. Clinching and striking, no ground fighting in this.

Allowed: Knees, elbows, kicks, punches, stand-up grappling and throwing. Not allowed knee to the groin, that's about it. Gloves are worn, no other pads. A fight consists of three five three minute rounds.

Saying a person who fights in a situation like this does not have an advantage in a streetfight over a person who knows no martial arts, or does martial arts with no sparring/competition is pretty daft IMO. The muay thai guy can bight too you know!

Now take vale tudo, where ground grappling is brought in - with all the rest. Are you telling me a vale tudo competition fighter is no more able to defend himself than say, some guy who does no competition fighting or sparring at all? You think the vale tudo guy can't scrape, bight, pull hair if he feels like it?

meatball

"You've missed the point. He won't enter the ring with them. He'd have broken into their houses the night before the fight was meant to have happened and beaten them with baseball bats while they slept."

What, is he a ****ing ninja now or something? Be realistic. If he met two determined, trained fighters on the street he'd lose. So would I. So would you.

Competitive MMA training will give you proven tools you need to defend yourself in most situations on the street. In other situations, run.

tunney

Are you telling me a vale tudo competition fighter is no more able to defend himself than say, some guy who does no competition fighting or sparring at all?

Just because the other person has done no competition/sparring doesn't mean he can't fight. He could have been fighting on the streets every second day for most of his life. Then it doesn't matter, karate, judo, silat, tudo, whatever, the street fighter has the advantage.

do a "combat art" you are hard as nails and can take on all comers.

I was under the impression that the first lesson in a "combart art" is run like crazy if you can, avoid the fights, watch your back, stay out of trouble. Anyone who thinks that can take on all comers will get hurt.

Runfree

Competitive MMA training will give you proven tools you need to defend yourself in most situations on the street. In other situations, run.

This is what I agree with. Point well made. If you ever get in to a situation think about the results, even if you could beat the other guy(s) to bits, what will happen to you.

1) Possibly Jail sentence
2) Can't practise MA again
3) If you loose you are a goner

IMO best advise: put one foot in front of the other and put the other foot then infront of the first foot and do this at a very rapid pace.

RUN!!!!

RunFree

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
Just because the other person has done no competition/sparring doesn't mean he can't fight. He could have been fighting on the streets every second day for most of his life. Then it doesn't matter, karate, judo, silat, tudo, whatever, the street fighter has the advantage.

That's a fairly crap argument. Maybe he can fight, maybe he HAS spent years roaming the streets looking for fights and is andre the giant.

I'm saying the average scumbag has no way near the same skill or fitness level a good vale tudo fighter has. If he can't win against a vale tudo fighter in the ring, he won't win in a fight outside either!

You can always make more hypothetical arguments: 'Well what if he has a gun!, or a machete!, or gets his big brother's mates!, or beats the guy up in bed at night with a baseball bat!'.

Fair enough, there are limits to what hand-to-hand combat can do I suppose. Maybe some day we'll learn to catch bullets between our teeth!

tunney

a martial art is a refined version of what one, or more, people found that works in a fight.

A perons who fights on the street regularly, who wins some fights and loses others, will eventually learn what does and doesn't work, what is effective, what isn't. I'm not saying that each street fighter has their own personal martial art, but you can't dismiss someones style of fighting just because they don't dress up in uniforms and pay people to teach them.

An experienced street fighter is skilled in the art of fighting on the street. That is very different to fighting in a ring. Its like comparing the 100m hurdler with an ultra-marathoner. Its two entirely different things.

Personally I would prefer to fight a vale tudo fighter anyday to an experienced street fighter.

I'm saying the average scumbag has no way near the same skill or fitness level a good vale tudo fighter has.

They may not have the same skills but they may have equal but different skills. And as for suggesting that vale tudor fighters are the ultimate in physical fitness is a bit of a joke. People can get fit from non martial art related activities.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney
Yeah, that article was pretty crap and was a vain attempt to hype up a specific art. Which unless I'm mistaken involves alot of grappling. Which as anyone with an ounce of cop on knows is useless "on the street"(god I hate that expression)

Just noticed this reading back over the thread. The fighters at those gyms cross-train in brazilian jiu jitsu (has been proven to be the most effective grappling art?) and striking arts (maybe muay thai, or boxing?), all full-contact. When they fight in competition it's called "vale tudo", or "anything goes" (I think), meaning you can kick, punch, knee, trip, grapple, whatever.

There are a few rules, but it's probably as close to 'real-life' fighting as you'll get in a competition. I'd say they might learn about the stuff Marc whatshisface would teach in odd time aswell.

There's an affiliated gym on the northside, you could check it out if you wanted to see what it was like.

tunney

I'd say they might learn about the stuff Marc whatshisface would teach in odd time aswell.

The most valuable lesson I was ever taught by my teacher was "in a fist fight, you will get punched, in a knife fight you will get cut, don't get in fights" A motto to live by I think.

Runfree

Hmmm see some intresting posts here today. Take it ye are enjoying this thread then?

Must be seeming I only made it this morning.

Anyway keep posting guys.

Im off to read them links

RunFree.

PS keep it friendly

meatball

"The most valuable lesson I was ever taught by my teacher was "in a fist fight, you will get punched, in a knife fight you will get cut, don't get in fights" A motto to live by I think."

Why did you need to learn this lesson? You are apparently capable of predicting who your opponents will be, breaking into their houses the night before the fight, and beating them with baseball bats while they sleep.

dumb larry

Originally posted by tunney

An experienced street fighter is skilled in the art of fighting on the street. That is very different to fighting in a ring. Its like comparing the 100m hurdler with an ultra-marathoner. Its two entirely different things.

I'm sure people who go out and pick fights every night of the week exist. However, I think a person experienced in grappling/clinch/boxing will have a better chance of defending themselves against somebody such as this than someone who does not have those skills (if it actually came to blows that is). I think competition,in the proper environment, serves to enhance someone's ability to fight, not detract from it. I agree that any sensible person knows that running is best, if it's possible.

And as for suggesting that vale tudo fighters are the ultimate in physical fitness is a bit of a joke. People can get fit from non martial art related activities.

I didn't say they were the ultimate in physical fitness. It's obviously required of competitive vale tudo or muay thai fighters that they must be very fit though, with explosive power/strength/speed aswell as being conditioned to take punches, be aggressive, go the distance etc. As I said before, if you can't beat one of these guys in the ring, you'd be delusional to think you could beat them outside. Not without weaponry or some of your mates to back you up at any rate!

I realise that grappling somebody to the ground in front of their bloodthirsty friends is futile, but if there's nobody to back them up (as was the case in my situation), and you can't run, it certainly isn't. So grappling isn't useless, it's a useful skill to have just as boxing and fighting in the clinch are important too. It'll teach you to move somebody off balance and get them to the ground quickly so you can get away.

Full-contact competition with few rules is the best (legal) way to put these skills to use and hone them. Multiple Martial Arts and thai boxing both offer this.

tunney

if you can't beat one of these guys in the ring, you'd be delusional to think you could beat them outside. Not without weaponry or some of your mates to back you up at any rate!

Now you are beginning to understand

if there's nobody to back them up

you never know who's around the corner. Grappling I believe is a no no, not on the street.

Lemming

OMG :eek:

R - E - A - L - I - T - Y check please people.

Use your f*cking common sense. All of this cock-swinging "martial arts people are teh ult1mat3" sh*t is going to get someone seriously hurt if they go out thinking that having read some of the postings here. Seriously false sense of security and what-not. Think before you post stuff like this.

Dumb Larry, i don't mean to be condescending or patronising, but for your own good listen to what you're saying. I mean ... really listen.

Also, tunney has a very valid point about not getting in fights .......