[Article] Luas faces delay until 2005 - rail agency

Victor

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-355536352-pageUrl--2FHome.asp

Luas faces delay until 2005 - rail agency
31/08/03 00:00
By Sean Mac Carthaigh, Political Reporter

Dubliners may not be travelling on the Luas until 2005, and the project is in danger of degenerating into a bitter row between client and contractor, the state agency in charge of building the light rail system has admitted.

Frank Allen, the chief executive of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) wrote to Eoin Ryan TD, the head of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, saying the body did not know when the project would be finished or how much it would cost.

He said he feared a "collapse into mutual recrimination between client and contractor" that could last "several years".

This weekend, Ryan warned that the Luas faced the prospect becoming "a fiasco", and demanded urgent action by the RPA.

In 1996, the government said the Luas would be built for £220 million (€279 million), and that it would be in operation by 2001. Two years ago, the cost had more than doubled to €635 million and the start date put back to 2003.

Now, sources say the cost is headed for €1 billion, and that the two unconnected lines will not be in service before 2005.

Ryan wrote to the RPA earlier this month expressing alarm at traffic delays, missed construction deadlines and poor site management.

In his letter of reply, Allen said he shared Ryan's fears about missed deadlines, and added: "RPA is endeavouring to receive credible assurances regarding schedules to completion." He said the RPA was now trying to avoid the project being derailed because of a bitter row over who was to blame for delays.

http://www.thepost.ie/web/Home/Document%20View%20Business/did-950851742-pageUrl--2FBusiness-2FNews-Features.asp

Playing fast and Luas
31/08/03 00:00
By Sean Mac Carthaigh, Political Correspondent

The state agency in charge of building the Luas light rail system does not know when it will be finished or how much it will cost, and fears a "collapse into mutual recrimination between client and contractor" that could last "several years".

A letter from Frank Allen, chief executive of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) to Eoin Ryan TD, chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, reveals that the project is now in deep trouble.

Ryan this weekend warned that the Luas was in danger of becoming "a fiasco" and demanded that the RPA adopt a hands-on approach. His committee is likely to summon key players to Leinster House to explain themselves.

Ryan wrote to the RPA earlier this month expressing his alarm at the way the Luas project had evolved. He pointed to:

* unnecessary traffic delays & missed construction deadlines
* failure to deal with disrupted businesses
* poor site management & lack of concern for pedestrians
* the ‘hands-off' approach of the RPA

In the reply, Allen said he shared Ryan's fears about missed deadlines, and added: "This does give us cause for concern about the reliability of the contractor's completion dates for the overall project."

Allen said AMB JV, the contractor, had claimed that many delays had been caused by factors outside its control, such as additional requirements by local authorities, and archaeological finds.

"RPA is endeavouring to receive credible assurances regarding schedules to completion," Allen said.

Such discussions and negotiations were part of all large infrastructure projects, he said, and the RPA was trying to maintain a balance between penalising underperformance and cooperating with the contractor to get the job finished.

He said that he believed that AMB JV had the experience and skills to complete the job "within the timeframe that the contractor has indicated to us", but said this would require "maximum commitment and application of resources".

But the RPA chief raised the spectre of the project being derailed by a row. "Major infrastructure projects sometimes collapse into mutual recrimination between client and contractor, with the merits of the arguments being resolved by an arbitrator several years hence," Allen wrote. "We are trying to avoid such a situation."

Ryan this weekend characterised the letter as "remarkable". "I am amazed that such a major piece of infrastructural work has been allowed get to this situation," he said. "There seems to be complete lack of hands-on management on the ground - and no concern about the effect it is having on the city. "I can't understand why, when certain milestones were reached, action was not taken." Ryan said the Luas was now "headed for a fiasco".

In the short term, Ryan said, there should be an urgent review, concentrating on how to minimise the disruption to the city.

"For example, there is never anyone there, on the ground, to move traffic," he said. "There should be 50 trained people, who know what is going on, and are on the ground at major roadworks in Dublin, to move traffic.

"We would be far better off with a designated corps like that than the proposed traffic police." He said the Luas failures could have a knock-on effect for other projects.

"One of the worrying things is that there are many proposals for major infrastructural work in Dublin and around the country, and if we don't learn from what has happened here there will be no appetite to complete them," he said.

"For example, there is the proposal to build an extra lane on the M50," Ryan said. "We have to convince people that these things can be done with minimum disruption. That is an absolute priority. We need to know we're not going to get ourselves into this fiasco again."


The train due at platform one is late and over budget

In 1996, the government aid the Luas would be built or £220 million (€279 million) and be in service by 2001. In 2001, former Minister or Public Enterprise Mary O'Rourke conceded that the cost for the project had more than doubled to over £500 million (€635 million).

She predicted that trains would begin to run in 2003. As 2003 approached, the Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan, said the budget had swelled to €675 million.

"I trust that everyone concerned will do all in their power to ensure no further delays will take place and that he construction of the system s completed at the earliest possible date, so that commuters will have access to services in the early months of 2004," he said. & In February 2003, The Sunday Business Post reported that the most conservative current estimate for he Luas was €800 million, and that this could easily bloat to €1 billion.

This newspaper also reported that only the Sandyford to St Stephen's Green line had any hope of being operational by mid-2004.

The letter dated August 26 from RPA chief executive Frank Allen indicates that Dubliners may not get to use the Luas until 2005 - if the project doesn't "collapse into mutual recrimination" to be resolved in "several years".

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/1329665?view=Eircomnet

Brennan demands clampdown on EUR 50m Luas claim
From:ireland.comMonday, 1st September, 2003

The Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, has told the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA) not to give "a penny more" to the contractors of the Luas light rail project, who are seeking up to EUR50 million extra to complete the two tram lines by next summer.

It has emerged that the Luas will now cost EUR765 million, with the contractors claiming an additional EUR50 million in order to complete the Sandyford and Tallaght lines by June and August 2004.

In its latest report to the Minister the Railway Procurement Agency has said it anticipates the entire "contingency" provision for Luas of EUR 90 million will be used up, on top of the budgeted cost of EUR 675 million, and it was still arguing with the contractors.

Mr Brennan told The Irish Times last night that he had made it clear to the RPA that the contractors were not to get a penny more than EUR 675 million, plus EUR 90 million.

"And the timescale is not to go a day beyond June or a day beyond August." he said.

The rising cost of the Luas would make it the most expensive piece of infrastructure in the history of the State, outstripping the EUR 625 million Dublin Port Tunnel and the EUR 680 million M3 motorway from Clonee to Kells, Co Meath, which was approved last week by An Bord Pleanála.

In 1996, the Government said the Luas would be built for EUR 279 million and would be operational by 2001. Two years ago the cost had more than doubled to EUR 635 million and the start date had been put back to 2003.

Mr Brennan said he had asked the RPA to engage in "hard talking" with the contractor, AMB JV, in order to contain the escalating cost and deliver the project on time.

"It's quite a battle," Mr Brennan said. "I understand there is a lot of discussion, angst and pressure on the builders to have [the] Sandyford [line] ready in June and [the] Tallaght [line] in August, but they're demanding to get paid for variations. The RPA is resisting this because there's EUR 50 million at stake", he said.

The Minister said the RPA was now "getting a bit jittery about both the money and the time". "So I told them last week that I want them to get down to hard talking with the builders to settle those issues as quickly as possible.

"Yesterday, the chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Mr Eoin Ryan, laid the blame for increasing costs and delays for Luas squarely on the shoulders of the RPA.

"There is no evidence of a hands-on approach, no appreciation of the effect its construction is having on the city," he declared

The agency's chief executive, Mr Frank Allen, said it was "endeavouring to receive credible assurances regarding schedules to completion", although it believed AMB JV had the experience and skills necessary to complete the project.

In a letter on August 26th to Mr Ryan he said: "We believe that this is achievable within the timeframe . . . but it will require maximum commitment and application of resources".

Mr Allen said the RPA was directing all of its efforts to require AMB JV to apply those resources, as deadlines had been missed for stages of the work.

"This does give us cause for concern about the reliability of the contractor's completion dates."

He also noted in the letter that major infrastructure projects "sometimes collapse into mutual recrimination between client and contractor, with the merits of the arguments being resolved by an arbitrator several years hence".

The Green Party's transport spokesman, Mr Eamon Ryan TD, said yesterday that he found this "quite ominous because it raises the nightmare scenario of litigation in the courts that could go on for years", even holding up completion of the project.

In a statement last night the RPA rejected Mr Eoin Ryan's claim and reaffirmed its objective to have the Luas system operational next summer.

"This requires striking a balance between penalising contractors for underperformance and working with them to get the work complete," it said.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/1329954?view=Eircomnet

Luas chief does quick backtrack
From:The Irish Independent
Monday, 1st September, 2003
Ben Quinn

HARD-PRESSED Luas chief, Frank Allen, last night backed away from a warning the light rail system might not be ready on time.

He had expressed fears that the Dublin project, which is already three years overdue, was even further behind schedule.

But last night, amid expressions of alarm from politicians and the public, the chief executive of the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) said the project was still due for completion by Christmas next year.

His change of heart came after he was given new assurances on the project from the contractors at a meeting.

Prior to that meeting, Mr Allen had written to the chairman of the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Eoin Ryan, saying he shared fears about the reliability of completion dates.

This led Mr Ryan to say that he feared the project was now "headed for a fiasco".

But last night, with the political alarm bells ringing, Mr Allen said there would be no fiasco. He said passengers were still expected to be travelling on the Sandyford to St Stephen's Green line by June next year, and on the Tallaght to Connolly route by the following month.

He said these targets were confirmed last Thursday by the main infrastructural contractor for Luas, AMB JV.

Responding to accusations there was a lack of action on contractors' delays, he said the agency strove to strike a balance "between penalising contractors for underperformance and working with them to get the work complete".

The estimated total cost of the project is in the region of €775m, according to the RPA.

Mr Ryan, who is expected to stand as a Fianna Fail candidate in this year's elections to the European Parliament, said yesterday members of the Transport Committee were likely to want answers from the RPA.

He expressed alarm in his letter to the RPA about missed deadlines and traffic delays, as well as taking issue with the agency's 'hands off' approach.

Yesterday, he called for a review concentrating on how to minimise disruption in the city.

The Green Party last night called on Transport Minister Seamus Brennan to make an immediate statement outlining when Luas would be completed.

Eamon Ryan, the party's transport spokesperson, said the minister seemed "blithely disinterested" in the project.

A spokesperson for Mr Brennan said yesterday he still expected the first Luas line to be carrying passengers by June of next year, adding budget estimates had also not changed.

Costings for Luas have rocketed since the Government announced in 1996 it would be built for €279m and would be running by 2001.

However, the price tag doubled to €635m in 2001, alongside promises that the trains would be in service by this year, before the current €775 estimate.

Typedef

I'm slightly confused about one thing.

Will there actually be any LUAS services operating in North Dublin at all?

I notice that there was once a plan to create a LUAS line from Dundrum to Dublin Airport, I was under the impression that this LUAS extension would take the place of the scrapped Metero system.

Does anybody have any idea if the line is still supposed to be built and if so, when said line is scheduled for construction?

Victor

Originally posted by Typedef
I notice that there was once a plan to create a LUAS line from Dundrum to Dublin Airport, I was under the impression that this LUAS extension would take the place of the scrapped Metero system.Does anybody have any idea if the line is still supposed to be built and if so, when said line is scheduled for construction?

According to the Dept of Transport, the Airport Luas line is now open.

Typedef

It is?

I'll admit, it's a few months since I've been in Dublin.... but, when the hell did all this happen.
In fact... I was in the airport about 2 months ago, and I noticed nothing.

Maybe I'm smoking crack
</backtrack>

Victor

OK, I exaggerate. It was meant to start construction last year. apparently they have it down to three possible routes (down fom 5 in 1999) at the moment, which is 3-4 years behind schedule.

http://members.boards.ie/victor/luas%20airport.jpg

maxheadroom

I thought that was going to be a metro line in the new grand scheme of things?

Typedef

I honestly think there is more merit in the LUAS, since a metero line would fragment the transport infrastructure.

Granted, a metero for the whole city would have been perferable, but, since our benovalent leaders decided to go with a Tram, I think the entire system should be tram based.

The DART, for example, is a pleasure ot use, really, in comparison to the Bus, the DART is a Rolls Royce and it can take you all over the city.

I think it would be very cool, to be able to get on a Tram in Dublin Airport and say
"Dundrum please", with the minimum of fuss.

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Typedef
I think it would be very cool, to be able to get on a Tram in Dublin Airport and say
"Dundrum please", with the minimum of fuss.

Or, even better - "single please" and know that you could get to anywhere withing the whole public transport network with a transfer window of, say, 90 minutes...

LFCFan

Originally posted by Typedef
The DART, for example, is a pleasure ot use, really, in comparison to the Bus, the DART is a Rolls Royce and it can take you all over the city.

Are you taking the pish? The DART is a nightmare during rush hour and is more like a Train to a concentration camp. I've seen people puke because of being so cramped. The DART is a disgrace. I was on the DART the day it started back in the 80's and I have seen fcuk all change since then even though numbers have gone through the roof.

dmeehan

The DART, for example, is a pleasure ot use, really, in comparison to the Bus, the DART is a Rolls Royce and it can take you all over the city.

by all over the city i take it you mean only along the coast:rolleyes:

Victor

Originally posted by LFCFan
I was on the DART the day it started back in the 80's and I have seen fcuk all change since then even though numbers have gone through the roof.

You haven't noticed the extra 5 stations, the rebuilt stations, increasing the rolling stock from 40 to 76, the ticket vending machines ....

LFCFan

Originally posted by Victor
You haven't noticed the extra 5 stations, the rebuilt stations, increasing the rolling stock from 40 to 76, the ticket vending machines ....

What I mean is, as the numbers grew on the DART it got more and more crowded. It's rediculous that people should be herded around like cattle on public transport. Off peak times are fine and the DART is a great service but you have to cater for demand and at the moment they're not.

bloggs

Im not a construction engineer, but perhaps someone who may be knowledgeable in this field could explain to me, why the following happens:

Trench on Storestreet is cut open, then left for weeks, then tarmacadam is poured in and left for a few weeks, then concret sides are pured in and left for a few weeks.

Abbey Street, holes are dug and 'worked' on for a few weeks, more and more digging. Then after a few months, tarmacadam is pured and and left for a few weeks, then steel is brought and set up.

Why is everything taking so long. The amount of work doesn't seem to me to be all that much. OK im not very well up on this, but why are things left for weeks and weeks to gather dust, when there could be rails down and the the roads in use?

Victor

Brennan's €20m Luas on stilts may hit planning snag
From:The Irish Independent
Tuesday, 2nd September, 2003
Treacy Hogan Environment Correspondent

A SPECIAL flyover to take Luas trams over the notorious Red Cow roundabout instead of through it is being planned by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan - adding another €20m to the already sky-high bill.

Mr Brennan has asked officials to draw up plans to put the Luas on "stilts" at the M50 bottleneck (dubbed the Mad Cow roundabout) . . . but only if it will not cost more than €20m, it was confirmed yesterday.

The last-ditch measure was sparked by official fears that having the trams running across sliproads of the country's most congested roundabout would bring it to a complete standstill.

If the minister's move succeeds, Luas tracks already laid at the roundabout will be made redundant.

And putting the Luas on stilts would bring the total cost of the system close to €800m - more than six times the original estimated cost.

The trams will run every 2½ minutes at peak times, crossing the outbound lanes of the Naas dual carriageway and two of the sliproads at the Red Cow roundabout as revealed earlier this year in the Irish Independent.

A spokesman for Mr Brennan said yesterday the minister had instructed officials to examine installing a flyover ramp to enable the trams cross the roundabout without interfering with traffic, but only if costs under €20m.

But the minister's move could run into planning difficulties, as the Railway Procurement Agency insisted yesterday it had no alternative to putting in tracks on the Red Cow sliproads.

Frank Allen, RPA chief executive, said the route was confirmed following a public inquiry before a judge and agreed between all of the authorities, including South Dublin County Council and the National Roads Authority.

Meanwhile, the Automobile Association warned that the roundabout is an international by-word for traffic congestion. Having Luas trams compete with cars and trucks would only make congestion there even worse, it said.

The railway agency said the trams will run within the existing traffic light changes and that it will take only seven seconds for a tram to cross the road. The idea is that the trams will cross while the lights are red for traffic at the roundabout, the agency said.

However, there will have to be "a safety margin" before the tram arrives and the plan has been criticised, as it will lead to more gridlock at a junction where five-mile tailbacks are already a familiar feature at rush hour.

Both Fine Gael and Labour criticised the Government yesterday for allowing the Luas bill to rise to €765m, consisting of a contract price of €675m plus a contingency fund of €90m which has now been used up.

However, both the minister and the RPA made clear there will be no question of giving in to demands by the contractors, MVM Ansaldo Joint Venture, for another €50m in compensation for hold-ups in order to finish the job by next year.

Mr Brennan said yesterday the railway agency assured him the Tallaght line will open to the public in August next year and the Sandyford line a month earlier, and that no more money will be paid. But Fine Gael transport spokesman Denis Naughten said it was "unacceptable" Luas will cost €90m more. Money being spent on it was drawing funds away from transport projects outside the capital.

Seamus, they are called columns, not stilts.

LFCFan

surely to Jaysus, when they were planning the Goddamn thing in the first place, someone should have copped on to the fact that The Red Cow Roundabout is a bloody carpark already and a feckin' tram going through it would only add to the misery. Gobsh1tes!

bloggs

Originally posted by LFCFan
surely to Jaysus, when they were planning the Goddamn thing in the first place, someone should have copped on to the fact that The Red Cow Roundabout is a bloody carpark already and a feckin' tram going through it would only add to the misery. Gobsh1tes!

But the people who were hired are friends (either just friends or paying friends) of FF and they weren't chosen for their technical ability

Victor

Originally posted by bloggs
But the people who were hired are friends (either just friends or paying friends) of FF and they weren't chosen for their technical ability

This is probably unfair. As I understand it most of the RPA people are ex-CIE. Tha main contractor is Dutch (although most sub-contractors - the people doing the work - are Irish) and has primary responsibility for detailed design.

Jak

It's a complete joke at this stage.

I have followed the development of this project since the start and the level of so called project management has been utterly apalling. They claim factors outside of their control have caused the delays and costs, however this is the ****ing job of a project manager, and if you don't think you can do it - you should not be taking it on.

However this aside, the country needs to learn a serious lesson about handing out contracts. I think it is a disgrace that a company can go to tender for a project quoting ~€280m - win the project and then not deliver anywhere close to the time or budget they put forward. I truly believe this should be criminal.

Where is the liability?

There is very little incentive for Luas to be completed on time from the contractors perspective and this is the problem. If it goes to stalemate the only winners will be lawyers.

JAK.

bloggs

Originally posted by Jak
It's a complete joke at this stage.

I have followed the development of this project since the start and the level of so called project management has been utterly apalling. They claim factors outside of their control have caused the delays and costs, however this is the ****ing job of a project manager, and if you don't think you can do it - you should not be taking it on.

However this aside, the country needs to learn a serious lesson about handing out contracts. I think it is a disgrace that a company can go to tender for a project quoting ~€280m - win the project and then not deliver anywhere close to the time or budget they put forward. I truly believe this should be criminal.

Where is the liability?

There is very little incentive for Luas to be completed on time from the contractors perspective and this is the problem. If it goes to stalemate the only winners will be lawyers.

JAK.

Why can't the government create a contract, that says that if the company doesn't carry out the work on time, that they suffer financial penalties. This woudl get their arse in gear!

Victor

Originally posted by bloggs
Why can't the government create a contract, that says that if the company doesn't carry out the work on time, that they suffer financial penalties. This woudl get their arse in gear!

They do. However, the imposition of any such penalties (actually liquidated damages, not penalties - only a court can impose a penalty) merely encourages the contractor to find every possible loophole or excuse to charge more.

maxheadroom

I think JAK posed a valid question, how can a contractor quote figure X for a project in an open tendering process, and end up charging nearly 4X for the completed project.


Does the second best bidder have the right to any redress, if they cound have provided the whole project for 1.5X ? Surely once a price for the contract is set, that should be it?

Victor

But if there is something underground (pipes, cables, solid rock, archaeology) that **cannot** be foreseen, then no contractor can reasonably be expected to include that in their price. Likewise, clients request changes and technical standards are updated.

Finally, if a contract is going on over several years, there is usually a “Price Variation Clause”, which allows prices of materials and labour to be brought up to current values.

The real problem with projects like this is knowing years in advance what you will need (Luas started planning in 1996) and providing an appropriate accounting standard.

maxheadroom

Why bother with a tendering process at all then if the number quoted is essentially meaningless?

I mean, if I say I can do this job for 200 million, then surely there should be some way to hold me to that price, or as close as possible to this price.

Asn the underground stuff (diverting services etc) was an essential part of the luas contract, so surely that can't be used as an excuse for the higher costs - that should have been forseen at bid time.

Jak

Victor if the project manager doesn't allow for what you listed above there, then he should not be a project manager.

Ditto for progressive costs. Contingency funds are provided for these reasons.

Also a tripling of the budget does not come anywhere close to accounting for progressive cost increases.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Jak
Victor if the project manager doesn't allow for what you listed above there, then he should not be a project manager.

Ditto for progressive costs. Contingency funds are provided for these reasons.

Also a tripling of the budget does not come anywhere close to accounting for progressive cost increases.

Contractors have gotten away with this crap for too long in this country. They quote low knowing that they can up their price later as it's the norm over here. It would be interesting to see the quotes for some government projects if the the contractors were unaware that it was the government funding it.

Victor

OK, tell us something we don't know.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1507174?view=Eircomnet

Brennan admits LUAS plans are 'a mess'
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 17th September, 2003

The Minister for Transport, Mr Brennan, has admitted that aspects of the LUAS Dublin light railway network were a serious mistake and are now a "mess".

Speaking on RTÉ's Prime Time last night, the Minister said if he had the chance to begin again on construction of the railway - which is millions of euro over budget and a year behind schedule - he would build it underground.

"If we were starting with a clean sheet of paper, knowing today's figures, you would probably opt for a complete city-wide metro, and you would probably do 100 per cent of it underground," he told the programme.

He also conceded that the proposed routing of the line through the middle of the Red Cow roundabout in West Dublin - one of the country's busiest junctions - was "a huge mistake".

Mr Brennan said his preferred solution was to raise the line on stilts above the roundabout, adding that an announcement on the issue would come soon.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1511443?view=Eircomnet

LUAS a 'litany of cock-ups', says Labour
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 17th September, 2003

The Labour Party said this afternoon the "litany of cock-ups" connected with the LUAS project have been farcical and called on the Minister for Transport to consider "standing down" the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA).

Labour's transport spokeswoman, Ms Roisin Shortall, questioned whether Mr Brennan had "lost a grip on reality" following his comments last night admitting aspects of the LUAS Dublin light railway network were a serious mistake and are now a "mess".

Speaking on RTÉ's Prime Time last night, the Minister said if he had the chance to begin again on the railway - which is millions of euro over budget and a year behind schedule - he would build it underground.

"If we were starting with a clean sheet of paper, knowing today's figures, you would probably opt for a complete city-wide metro, and you would probably do 100 per cent of it underground," he told the programme.

In response to the Minister's comments, Ms Shorthall said the "litany of cock-ups leads to many serious questions".

She asked why the RPA was given the project "when it clearly lacked sufficient technical expertise" and why it was allowed "spend enormous sums on outside consultants when they should have had this capability in the first place?"

She also asked the Minister to explain how the Government could give the RPA responsibility for any future metro project or for the integrated transport ticketing system "when their record on LUAS is so dire?"

"The Minister for Transport is equally culpable," she said. "Throughout this farce he has defended the RPA and failed to admit that there was a problem. If he is prepared to admit publicly that the project is a mess then he must also seriously consider standing down the RPA in order to avoid such serious mistakes in the future."

As part of a major review of the National Development Plan, an initial report on the Luas project is due to be published tomorrow.

The mid-term review will repeat the conclusions of previous studies, which found that the project was running at more than twice the original cost estimates.

Winters

I was amazed to hear Mr Brennan say that. I have lost all respect for him since he has said that also.

For some reason people in the Government and also by the looks of things Irish people in general dont understand the transport needs of Dublin. Dublin is too small for a Metro to work, if you look at cities across Europe that has metros their population far outweights that of Dublin. A Metro in Dublin would cost too much to be of any economic value. Seeing as though the Government believe that the only way to build a Metro is underground ( :rolleyes: ) you can see it being of large problems and expense. Look at the problems encountered by the Dublin Port Tunnell team and all they were doing is two tunnels from East Point to Santry [as such].

The best transport option for Dublin [besides a fully intragated rail and bus network] is to fill the city with Trams. Look across all major European cities, they are filled with Trams, not metros. Trams would suit Dublin better, already with the building of the Luas do we have the knowledge and resources available to help build new lines and extentions.

If the Luas is not extended and left in its currant 2 line layout [Which is a disgrace as neither line connects to each other, something that would never be allowed anyware else in the World] then something that could have helped Dublins increasing traffic problems will have been lost. A full, on-street tram network is what is needed, not a hugh and costly underground metro.

Reports had been done when they were deciding to go either underground or overground with the Luas through Dublin city Centre and all the reports said to go overground. pity they never listened to them

sceptre

I really wish Brennan would stop calling them "stilts"

It was funny the first time.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
I really wish Brennan would stop calling them "stilts" It was funny the first time.

Must be a personal complex* he has


* He's not very tall.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1516745?view=Eircomnet

Greens urge Brennan to join two Luas lines
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 18th September, 2003

The Minister for Transport must integrate the two Luas lines under construction in Dublin, the Green Party said today.

Speaking as the party launched a postcard campaign to pressurise the Department into connecting the two lines, Dun Laoighaire TD Mr Ciaran Cuffe said Mr Brennan now has to give his "unequivocal support to the Luas project and ensure that people have a choice between leaving the car at home and having good quality public transport available."

The completion cost of Luas is now estimated at €765 million, nearly three times the initial projection of €288 million. Traffic in Dublin city has been severely disrupted during construction.

Two free-standing lines are being built. One 14 kilometre line runs from Tallaght to Connolly Station and another nine kilometre long line joins Sandyford to St Stephen's Green. Because they are physically separate, two depots have to be built to store the GEC-Alsthom trams.

The original plan in 1997 envisaged a single loop line fromTallaght to Balally, south of Dundrum, running on-street through the city centre from St Stephen's Green to Middle Abbey Street. But that was dropped by the Government in 1998 which, at the time, was considering running all or part of the Sandyford line underground.

Mr Cuffe told ireland.com the additional work required to join the two lines would not create undue traffic disruption. "Mary O'Rourke, threw this out several years ago but Seamus Brennan has more or less been in power for most of the last 15 years so we think that a lot of the blame lies at his door not having the Luas running today."

The Green Party's campaign comes two days after Mr Brennan admitted on RTÉ's Primetime that parts of the Luas system are a mess and a mistake.

He said if they were starting with a clean sheet of paper and knowing today's figures they would probably opt for a complete city-wide metro and probably do 100 per cent of it underground.

Green Party transport spokesman Mr Eamon Ryan, said there had been "dithering as to whether we should build it overground or underground. Regardless of this, now everyone in transport terms recognises it would make sense to connect the two lines.

"The planning and design stage is done, that is the expensive bit. We have learned a lot, we have learned from our mistakes hopefully. It wouldn't be that expensive. And I think we should work 24-hours a day to get it through. Going this small half-a-mile section isn't going to take that long.

He said joining the Luas would not become redundant even if an underground Metro was built. As part of its campaign the Green Party are handing out postcards asking Mr Brennan to "join the dots" and connect the two lines.

The postcards are going to be distributed over the next month by the Green Party and are addressed to the Minister for Transport.

Bee

Originally posted by Winters

The best transport option for Dublin [besides a fully intragated rail and bus network] is to fill the city with Trams.

Originally posted by Winters
. A full, on-street tram network is what is needed, not a hugh (sic) and costly underground metro.

I don't think so.

The Luas should never have been built, removing road space only leads to increased traffic congestion. The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial. Anything that removes roadspace like the Luas is for cloud cuckoo land. Dublins economy has been damaged enough by inept planning,idiot road design by management at Dublin City council and total lack of vision by politicians.

Obviously we need to shift large amounts of people in the most efficient way possible. A metro is the best way of doing this. Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

A Metro can use numerous carriages as opposed to the single trams used by LUAS, it makes far greater use of rail in the city centre, and avoids the traffic congestion factor which frequent tram crossovers on city centre streets would cause. We also need a fast rail link from the Airport to the city centre (not necessarily a Metro). The ideal scenario would be to have both (similar to the Underground and the Heathrow Express ,which both serve Heathrow Airport)

Bee:)

maxheadroom

Originally posted by Bee
A metro is the best way of doing this. Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

I'd like to refute that with one word.


Gothenburg.


That is all.

Bee

Originally posted by maxheadroom
I'd like to refute that with one word.


Gothenburg.


That is all.

I would like to refute that with six words!

Dublin and Gothenburg? Chalk and Cheese!!!:D

Bee

sceptre

I hope you do realise that you haven't refuted anything, Bee.

You said something along the lines of "just because other cities have trams doesn't mean they're any good in those cities"

maxheadroom said that in Gothenberg they rather do

You said that Dublin was not Gothenberg (which in fairness won't come as news to the residents of either city). Which hadn't much to do with whatever point you were trying to make.

Aaargh

Victor

Originally posted by Bee
The Luas should never have been built, removing road space only leads to increased traffic congestion.

From Sandyford to the Canal, laus doesn't use any roadspace other than the level crossing at Beechwood Avenue (which has been single lane traffic all along anyway).

Originally posted by Bee
The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.

If you mean have cars for the bosses, then I just about agree with you, but cars for everyone doesn't work.

Originally posted by Bee
Dublins economy has been damaged enough by inept planning,idiot road design by management at Dublin City council and total lack of vision by politicians.

Actaully the mess Dublin is in can be put back to:

(a) corrupt local government in the 18th and 19th century (which stripped the city of rates by moving the rich to the suburban "townships", mostly laid out on traditional country lanes)

(b) the Fianna Fáil inspired houses for everyone "garden city" ideas of the 1930 (not bad, but misguided).

(c) general mismanagement at a national level since the 1977 census which indicated strong population growth, but falling family sizes ... which mean huge numbers of houses would be needed in the -1995-2010 period.

Originally posted by Bee
Obviously we need to shift large amounts of people in the most efficient way possible.

Only where there is adeequate population. Most parts of Dublin do'nt warrant a metro.

Originally posted by Bee
Just beacuse other cities have trams does not mean they are meeting the requirements of the populace or that they are enhancing the local economy.

Then they would be moving away from trams wouldn't they? The general trend in developed countries is towards more public transport, not less.

Originally posted by Bee
A Metro can use numerous carriages as opposed to the single trams used by LUAS,

Luas can use multiple cars.

Originally posted by Bee
and avoids the traffic congestion factor which frequent tram crossovers on city centre streets would cause.

You mean the way a tram carrying say 100 people would inconvenience 20 motorists?

Originally posted by Bee
We also need a fast rail link from the Airport to the city centre (not necessarily a Metro). The ideal scenario would be to have both (similar to the Underground and the Heathrow Express ,which both serve Heathrow Airport)

This need not necessarily compete on infrastructure. "Third track" (or fourth) could mean express or semi-express services could be provided.

Bee

Thank you Vic for the thoughtful replies

If I may add...

From Sandyford to the Canal, luas doesn't use any roadspace other than the level crossing at Beechwood Avenue (which has been single lane traffic all along anyway).

I obviously meant wherever there is already existing traffic congestion e.g. all of the city between the canals. You don't resolve congestion by removing lanes, the Luas will be full from day one resulting in continued necessary car use. Not all commuters can use/will use public transport due to multiple reasons never mind the lazy sods who will always insist on their car.

If you mean have cars for the bosses, then I just about agree with you, but cars for everyone doesn't work.

Please remember that the majority of the proletariat that generate profit if they use their car is because they have too, being stuck in congestion is for most people not out of choice. Some believe the myth that Luas et al will shift commuters out of their car, to nail that myth on the head we need a serious survey of car users entering Dublin city as to why they are in their car rather than on public transport

Actaully the mess Dublin is in can be put back to: etc

Inept traffic planning by DCC's Traffic Dept as well as an exceptionally poor traffic light system has compounded matters no end!

Only where there is adeequate population. Most parts of Dublin do'nt warrant a metro.

Oh Dear, perhaps you havn't commuted on overcrowded Dart's and urban rail akin to the worst excesses in India never mind risking life on overcrowded platforms. Unbeliveably Luaswill bypass Crumlin and Kimmage! (much to Dublin Buses overcrowded stagecoaches relief) I would argue that numerous Dublin urban areas seriously need a Metro due to the volume that can be carried at any one time

Luas can use multiple cars.

And create further traffic havoc with increased congestion catering for the low capacity cars with traffic lights switching more frequently as against the increased speed and greater passeneger load of an underground Metro

You mean the way a tram carrying say 100 people would inconvenience 20 motorists?

Think of the knock on effect of traffic congestion, think of the slow down of the emergency services:rolleyes: if you look at Dublin Bus QBC's for the majority of the time outside of the rush hour the buses are nearly empty, expect the same for the Luas.

This need not necessarily compete on infrastructure. "Third track" (or fourth) could mean express or semi-express services could be provided

Aggreed but why not a fully integrated Metro as part of the Metro to the Airport and at the very least Dublin port?

Bee

Victor

Interesting O'Rourke (minister 5 years) says Brennan (minister 1 year). Me thinks O'Rourke has an agenda.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1582280?view=Eircomnet

O'Rourke says Brennan should explain Luas debacle
From:ireland.com
Monday, 29th September, 2003

The Green Party seized on the in-party spat with transport spokesman, Mr Eamon Ryan blaming both Mr Brennan and Mrs O'Rourke for dithering over the project.

The Evening Herald today reported Mrs O'Rourke denying any responsibility for what Mr Brennan recently admitted was a "mess". The paper quotes her saying he should "shape up and stop moaning" about the much-criticised project.

She said costing on the project which could be nearly three times the original estimate was done by her predecessor former Fine Gael TD, Mr Michael Lowry.

Mr Brennan, implicitly criticising Mrs O'Rourke, recently said costing on the project appeared to have been done on the back of an envelope. He also said ideally the whole project should be abandoned and an underground put in its place.

"I was presented with a report on the Luas a month before I left office which stated that everything on-time and on-budget so I really don't know where it all went wrong," Mrs O'Rourke, who is now leader of the Seanad said.

"I would like the Minister to make a statement on exactly how it has all gone wrong", the former minister added.

But Mr Ryan insisted the former deputy leader of Fianna Fáil must also take responsibility:

"The truth is that both the present and the former Minister are fully responsible for the mess that our public transport infrastructure is in ... Both parties involved in this row are past masters at indecision and confusion when it comes to investing in our public transport infrastructure."

He called on Mrs O'Rourke to publish the report indicating the project on- time and on-budget.

And he said Minister Brennan should "concentrate on ways of solving the problems currently facing the Luas project rather that looking for a political scapegoat".

Capt'n Midnight

http://www.luas.ie/plan/background.asp

The Dublin Transportation Initiative (DTI) report of April 1994 included a wide-ranging set of recommendations aimed at realising clearly identified transportation, land use and environmental objectives for the Greater Dublin Area.

The report recommended the establishment of a three line light rail transit (LRT) system linking Tallaght, Ballymun and Cabinteely to the City Centre. The establishment cost was estimated at £300m.

Capt'n Midnight

The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.
Well they are the only ones who can afford TAXI's every day...

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
The Dublin Transportation Initiative (DTI) report of April 1994 included ....... The establishment cost was estimated at £300m.

And in 1994 a Yorkie bar cost 30p, I just forked out 75c on one.

The profit makers need the mobility of a car for business and to think otherwise is farcial.

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Well they are the only ones who can afford TAXI's every day...

I was actually thinking about this and all to often the bike courier and / or the "white van" driver (well their delivery anyway) is as important as that big shiny (metallic silver!) Merc with the senior executive in it.

West Briton

You can whistle for a metro lads. McCreevy isn't going to wear it. We're back to the public transport is for losers mentality.

Ring Charlie up and ask him for a lift to the Airport.