Cost benefit analysis of Ireland's multicultural policy

shanemac

As I said before, Ireland needs to conduct a cost-benefit analysis on multicultural immigration before possible consequences become too large to reverse. Here's a very brief one...I'll go into more detail later.


Cost-Benefit Analysis of multiculturalism

Food

Benefit

There is no denying that foreign foods taste great. I just had a delicious Thai Penang Chicken Curry with spring rolls in sweet chilli sauce tonight...yum.

That food was certainly not available to Irish people in the 1950's (when most people were content with good old potatoes, bacon & cabbage, & other fairly plain food like that).

Cost

There is no need to have large ethnic populations to enjoy food from different regions of the world.

Firstly, only a small number of people from foreign countries are required to set up restaurants selling their particular kind of food. A large ethnic population is not required.

The population of Ireland is currently 3.9 million. If a population of 1,000 is necessary to support a good, successful, culturally significant restaurant (source: guesstimate), this means that approximately 3,900 restauranteers are required.

If all these restauranteers are foreign (which by the way means the end of Irish-owned restaurants & traditional Irish cuisine), and they were all run by foreign families with an average of say 5 people per restaurant family, this would necessitate a total foreign population of 19,500 (upper limit).

Economy

Benefit

Large numbers of immigrants competing for jobs in the Irish market reduces costs to industry because they can bring with them skills. They also reduce union bargaining power because they are less likely to be involved in indigenous trade-union movements.

These are factors which would be attractive to multinational corporations willing to set up in Ireland. This may have the effect of increasing Ireland's gross domestic product, bringing Ireland up in the ranks of successful 1st world economies.

Cost

The real cost of immigration is borne by the actual Irish workers who have to compete with a large number of people who may be better skilled than they are, and who are willing to work harder for less pay. The ultimate effect of this is to drive average wages down, as has been the case in Australia. (Please see my post earlier in the previous thread for detailed explanation).

Ireland is currently experiencing very good economic conditions (GDP growth of 5.2%). However, we all can remember times when this was not the case, and there is no guarantee that good economic conditions will go on forever. In times of economic downturn, with so many extra people competing for jobs, I would have to conclude that immigration will be bad for unemployed people.

So, in summary, economy-wise, big business may benefit from immigration, while the working class will lose out.

Tourism

Benefit

none that I can think of....

Costs

Tourism is, of course, a major sector in the Irish economy. But what do the tourists come for? Irish culture and history....re-visit their heritage and roots.

If Ireland becomes a multicultural country, then it becomes just like every other country in "the west" (America, Australia, UK, France...etc). In effect, multiculturalism means accepting everyone else's culture into your own, so that no single culture predominates. This means the death knell for distinctive Irish culture (Ceili's , Irish language, Irish dancing, Irish art, Irish literature & art...etc). If you think subsequent generations of foreign immigrants are going to want to adopt these things, you are seriously kidding yourself (look at other country's experience of this).

This may mean a detrimental effect on the economy.



Culture

As above. There is a great deal of evidence from overseas multicultural countries that foreign people congregate in ethnic communities, mainly in the large cities, and do not accept the native culture. The generations that are born after the 1st generation adopt a completely new "subculture", (this has been observed all across the world), which is often absorbed by the youth of the indigenous people.

The net result is that in a multicultural country, the traditional culture becomes "uncool" and is rejected by the youth of the country...accelerating the extinction of Irish culture.


Environment

benefits

None that I can think of....

Costs

The larger a population, the larger the impact on the environment.

As well as this, an indigenous population feels a greater kinship with the land, due to their sense of history and heritage. This means they are more likely to take steps to prevent environmental damage (can't provide evidence of this, but I have observed this in my own experience).

Crime

Benefits

The old members of criminal gangs might be shot by immigrant gangs ?

Costs

In all countries with ethnic populations, the crime has been taken over by ethnics. This is true across Europe, America and Australia (although I'm sure lefties will deny the fact). (see link

As well as this, there are international crime gangs (Russian, Chinese, Albanian, whatever you will...)

The fact is, in a mulitcultural society, different races will always set up gangs (tribes) based on their ethnic origin. This is a human biological instinct. These gangs view themselves as different from the majority of the population, so any crime they commit on the country at large is pretty much OK.

Terrorism

Benefit

The IRA and UDA might get some competition.

Costs

That's not really a good thing.

In all seriousness, people from different parts of the world often bring their old hatreds and conflicts with them, which go on for generations. There are several terrorist cells in countries like the UK, USA and Australia, set up by people espectially from Muslim countries.


Social harmony

Benefit

There is a view that a multicultural society can exist along the lines depicted in Jehovah's witness pictures of heaven. ie the lion will be playing with the lamb, black white and yellow people will all be holding hands in a great natural paradise, in a land where the sun always shines and the grass is always green.

Costs:

Economically, Ireland will become more divided between rich and poor. If big business can get away with paying less wages, they will, meaning the rich get richer & the poor get the picture.

Such a world will never exist, not in this lifetime. People are driven by envy, greed and tribalism, just as much if not more than by altruism and noble intentions.




Result:

Don't do it folks. Learn from other countries mistakes before you ruin your own unique country. Once you have a large ethnic population, your multicultural problems are irreversible; or in cruder terms:

Once you go black you can never go back.



I'd like the pro-multicultural people here to put forward their own cost-benefit analyses. Or even just mention one benefit to Ireland (apart from food).

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

shanemac

Yes, that's a point I was going to make, but I forgot.

So you couldn't be bothered reading the rest of the post. I guess that's part of the reason why multiculturalism is going ahead, without any real analysis of what it means for Ireland's future.

People are too bloody lazy to actually think about it. They'd rather sit back let MTV do all the talking. Meanwhile the major players in international business get all they want signed sealed and delivered, while the braindead masses can't be stuffed worrying.

dathi1

I think some of your arguments are a bit over simplified. I do agree that multiculturalism is a non starter due to the complexities and Social economics problems it causes. However! Looking at the rest of the world I think that a multicultural society is inevitable in Ireland weather we like it or not and the question is how do we deal with it or how we minimize it. By the way we treat our own ethnic traveling population I think the future looks bleak. The pro multicultural and any cost Dublin 4 / Montrose mentality are the same people that would kill you on the spot if you suggested a halting site or immigrant depot in their area. Its great to be lectured by Liz O'Donnell et al behind electric gates in leafy suburbs.
Hopefully the pressure will be put on politicians by pressure groups etc to reduce or stop illegal immigration altogether. I doubt its going to happen so prepare for the same urban instability that you get in the rest of Europe.

shanemac

To a certain point I agree.

There has probably never in human history been a 100% monocultural society & there is going to be an inevitable amount of infusion of non-indigenous influence and people into the Irish nation.

The point is (as you say) you have to decide what you want for your own nation...not what the rest of the world wants. If the rest of the world becomes a 3rd world cess pool, there's no point in Ireland going down with it.

The Dublin 4/ Belrose types you mention are exactly the same types who have pushed multiculturalism here in Australia. They are the ones who own the businesses, that ultimately benefit from globalism & widespread immigration & multic....(sick of typing those words out... from now on it's just going to be I & M).

It's the working class that bear the brunt of I&M.

Down here in Oz, 30 years ago the 2 major parties basically decided that I&M were off the political agenda. They could not be debated...they were universally a good thing. This was despite the fact that in every survey ever conducted, the vast majority of the population has been against I&M.

5 years ago we had a maverick form a new party called One Nation...that was based on nationalist policies....acting for the good of the nation. Both parties and the media ran major campaigns to scare people away and to ridicule and debase One Nation's support base. Just last week a court case against the way in which One Nation was organised finally ended. Pauline Hanson got 3 years in prison without bail, for a technicality of the registration of her party.

The law-suit was arranged and funded by the main so-called conservative political party (Liberals) and contributions from big business. Of course several lawyers worked pro-bono on the case.

This is political collusion and corruption of the highest order and it's only just now coming to light.

Big business has both sides of politics wrapped up...the left wing just doesn't realise it's being used to implement the globalist agenda.

The silence from the multiculties is deafening.... I thought you'd have lots of great things to say about how good multiculturalism is for your country.

Remember people, it's future generations that will live with the consequences of the actions you take within the next 5-10 years.

Meh

Originally posted by shanemac
Economy

Benefit

Large numbers of immigrants competing for jobs in the Irish market reduces costs to industry because they can bring with them skills. They also reduce union bargaining power because they are less likely to be involved in indigenous trade-union movements.

These are factors which would be attractive to multinational corporations willing to set up in Ireland. This may have the effect of increasing Ireland's gross domestic product, bringing Ireland up in the ranks of successful 1st world economies.

Cost

The real cost of immigration is borne by the actual Irish workers who have to compete with a large number of people who may be better skilled than they are, and who are willing to work harder for less pay. The ultimate effect of this is to drive average wages down, as has been the case in Australia. (Please see my post earlier in the previous thread for detailed explanation).

Ireland is currently experiencing very good economic conditions (GDP growth of 5.2%). However, we all can remember times when this was not the case, and there is no guarantee that good economic conditions will go on forever. In times of economic downturn, with so many extra people competing for jobs, I would have to conclude that immigration will be bad for unemployed people.

So, in summary, economy-wise, big business may benefit from immigration, while the working class will lose out.

So what are you doing in Australia, taking jobs away from the native Australians? Doesn't this make you a big fat hypocrite?

This means the death knell for distinctive Irish culture (Ceili's , Irish language, Irish dancing, Irish art, Irish literature & art...etc). If you think subsequent generations of foreign immigrants are going to want to adopt these things, you are seriously kidding yourself (look at other country's experience of this).

Yes, just like immigration into Australia stopped the Australians from doing distinctive Australian things like playing Aussie rules football. Oh wait...it didn't.

In all countries with ethnic populations, the crime has been taken over by ethnics. This is true across Europe, America and Australia (although I'm sure lefties will deny the fact). (see link

Because they are denied education, jobs and opportunities by bigots like yourself. And that source does not support your assertion that immigrants are responsible for a majority of crime in Australia.

Or even just mention one benefit to Ireland (apart from food).

http://www.hotshotdigital.com/tribute/PhilLynott.html
http://www.thevillan.co.uk/Players/P-McGrath.html

Gordon

shanemac you should be on the stage






















cleaning it.

pete

Can we have a cost / benefit analysis on racist imbeciles please?

thanks.

pete

Originally posted by shanemac
5 years ago we had a maverick form a new party called One Nation...that was based on nationalist policies....acting for the good of the nation.

This would be the same One Nation party you believe could learn a lot from the BNP, yes?

chill

Originally posted by shanemac
As I said before, Ireland needs to conduct a cost-benefit analysis on multicultural immigration before possible consequences become too large to reverse.

It is amazing how clever people 'think' they are when they become obsessed with justifying their own position in the face of common sense and any common sense of humanity, morality and reason.

This contribution is nothing but a simplistically, and not so cleverly, camaflaged argument for xenophobia and bigotry.

Ireland has populated every corner of the earth and every corner of the earth has benefited financially, culturally, spiritually and morally from our presence.

Ireland is now a multi cultural society and will become moreso with every passing month and year as certainly as the sun coming up tomorrow. And it is benefiting us financially, culturally and spiritually as well as morally.
To have people from all across the globe of humanity now living and contributing to Irish society is enriching all of our lives, and we look back to the time when we were all a boring white homogenous group of pale faced farmers and ex farmers we should be filled with thanks that that time no longer exists.

pete

Originally posted by dathi1
Looking at the rest of the world I think that a multicultural society is inevitable in Ireland weather we like it or not and the question is how do we deal with it or how we minimize it.

So what exactly is wrong with multicultural society then? You call it "multicultural society", I call it "progress". Things change, dude. I think we're "dealing" with things far better than the "no dogs, no wogs, no paddies" signs seen in 1950's england.

I mean.... I don't know if i could do without chinese takeaways, the local italian chip shop, the surgeon that operated on me last month, the phillipino nurses who looked after me as i recovered, the dentist who pulled my wisdom teeth, the nigerian security dude who stopped that guy cracking my skull, the teacher that taught me french, the italian restaurant the wife loves, the piped telly channels from engerland, oooh sky sports for the WWE, the rest of the satellte TV, acupuncture, them absolute crackers reading the news on TV5, the dutch guy that put my furniture together, the maori dude that did my tattoo, the chinese staff in burger king that have a better grasp of the english language and basic manners than the scangers they used to employ, that crazy guy who drives the nitelink bus home some nights, the eastern european geezer i saw stopping a fight the other night, the fact that it's now easier to find a non / multi denominational school for my kids to go to, phil lynnott.... I mean, these are all signs of a multicultural society, aren't they?

Maybe we just need more culchies.

ps booze rules

edit: uhhh that guy up there put it far more eloquently than my boozing allows

shanemac

There is a large section of society who have fully formed views and who will never change, no matter what evidence is presented before them.

I'm talking basically left-wing people, whose views are so entrenched that back-tracking on those views would be too embarrassing a backdown.

Whilst at school I myself used to be one of the most left-wing people you'd ever come across. I remember writing the same kinds of essays you guys here write in response to my posts...the kind of essays about how great it was to mix cultures, and learn from each other, and break down prejudice & all the rest of it. I have very strongly left-wing parents & family and having gone through the modern education system in the 70s and 80s, this was the natural position for me to take.

Well, I've changed from actually being immersed in multiculturalism. I've seen what it's like and it forced me to re-evaluate my position.

It appears to me that most of you people are unwilling to reassess your pro-multicultural beliefs. Basically people who are so entrenched in a certain mindset cannot be helped and I would be wasting my time talking to you.

I have one question:

Is your website here representative of the mainstream of Irish society, or is it disproportionately represented by left-wing types? If your positions are representative of the general population in Ireland, then there really is no hope for Ireland, and it's just a matter of time before Ireland as a nation ceases to exist.

Gordon

You categorise too glibly. Anyway, did you ever look in a mirror shanemac? I am also curious to know how much you are putting into Australia's economy (Australia is where you live isn't it. Not Ireland. You live in Australia and you are not Australian.) You sure must be paying a load of taxes in Australia (not Ireland) to have such a moral stance on the cost benefits of anti-multiculturalism.

How much tax do you pay per year incidentally? Do you work?

shanemac

Originally posted by Gordon
You categorise too glibly. Anyway, did you ever look in a mirror shanemac? I am also curious to know how much you are putting into Australia's economy (Australia is where you live isn't it. Not Ireland. You live in Australia and you are not Australian.) You sure must be paying a load of taxes in Australia (not Ireland) to have such a moral stance on the cost benefits of anti-multiculturalism.

How much tax do you pay per year incidentally? Do you work?

Not that it's any of your business, but yes I have a job....quite well paid too (sorry for not conforming to your stereotype of poor white trash). I paid over $17,000 in tax last year.

But to me, it's not a matter of tax. It's a matter of a country actually being able to maintain a national identity for future generations.

Waiting on lists of ways in which multicultural benefits from the following people:

Mercury tilt, Meh, Pete, Gordon (once he's finished his garbage round), Chill, Skyegirl, P.Pete.

Come on lefties, you are so educated. Why don't you enlighten the great unwashed with your wisdom.

Gordon

Ah so you are a Fat Cat intent on maximising profits and not giving a damn about people unless they give you an angle. I see now, thanks for letting me know that. Your whole world is based around what you can consume through your eyes and ears and heart and stomach. It doesn't really matter if a couple of people get sidelined because, hey, life's a b*tch eh? It's a tough world and you had to rough it to get where you are today so other people will just have to put up with it like you did. Does money make you happy?


Benefit-Cost Analysis of multiculturalism

Food (I can't believe this was actually the first point in your argument)

Benefit

The spice of life is variety

Cost

No cost, gain. More food types = more supply = more demand = more tax paid = more MONEY MONEY MONEY into the government kitties and fat little Stormfront pay checks.

Economy

Don't know, my life is not based around the economy of the country I live in.


Tourism

Benefit

New York has been known to be a cultural melting pot. I have friends that love New York because of this very fact.

Costs

None that I can think of....
Irish skangers are a real cost however.


Culture

Did you have a respective benefit when you did this bit?
Benefits

The spice of life is in the mix. The fact that your own culture is mixed with others can accentuate the sheer intricacies of your own and the view of your own culture can be hilighted like a colour in a rainbow when placed next to others. What good is a culture if you have nothing to compare it with?

Cost

None that I can think of....


Environment

benefits

You said that multiculturism created cheaper workforces. If this is true then these cheaper workforces will be able to clean up the mess made by knacker/skanger arses leaving their Burger King and Fish and Chip wrappers on the streets.

Costs

We may have to put up with different smells of aftershave when walking down the street.

Crime

Benefits

I have no idea

Costs

I have no idea


Terrorism

Benefit

In my experience 'ethnic' people have a sense of care for their fellow man. 'Ethnic' people in my experience do not want to commit murder, it is the war lords and Fat Cats that do the real slaying.

Costs

None that I can think of...

Social harmony

Benefit

If people didn't judge someone based on their skin colour then there wouldn't be a problem. All would be rosy.

Costs:

Unfortunately an influx of refugees would create these racist people that judge a person by their skin type. It's a fact of life unfortunately.



Result:

Do it if you want to experience a wider scope of life. Learn from other countries' fortunes and make your own unique country even more unique. Once you have a large ethnic population you can start to feel OK about your ancestors raping and killing and infecting with disease because you are proving that you aren't the same as them. Your multicultural wealths are irreversible; or in cruder terms:

Once you go racist you can never go back.
Or to give a nice little soundbite

An eye is an eye, a tooth is a tooth.

shanemac

Great effort Gordon...

Originally posted by Gordon
Ah so you are a Fat Cat intent on maximising profits and not giving a damn about people unless they give you an angle. I see now, thanks for letting me know that. Your whole world is based around what you can consume through your eyes and ears and heart and stomach. It doesn't really matter if a couple of people get sidelined because, hey, life's a b*tch eh? It's a tough world and you had to rough it to get where you are today so other people will just have to put up with it like you did. Does money make you happy?

If I was only concerned about my own wealth, why would I be here, trying to save you from the perils of a multicultural wasteland? Wouldn't I be better off sitting down and analysing my stock options? Wouldn't I be advocating bringing in more cheap labour to help break the unions, which means higher corporate profits & higher dividends from my share portfolio?

Originally posted by Gordon


Food (I can't believe this was actually the first point in your argument)

Benefit

The spice of life is variety

Cost

No cost, gain. More food types = more supply = more demand = more tax paid = more MONEY MONEY MONEY into the government kitties and fat little Stormfront pay checks.

Yes a greater variety of food is a benefit in a multicultural society. Like I said. However, you don't need a huge ethnic population to have a good food industry. Irish people could learn to cook ethnic food & you only need a small number of people to run ethnic restaurants. It's not a case of "the more the better".

Originally posted by Gordon

Economy

Don't know, my life is not based around the economy of the country I live in.

Well, don't you think the economy is important enough for you to be bothered learning something about it?

Originally posted by Gordon


Tourism

Benefit

New York has been known to be a cultural melting pot. I have friends that love New York because of this very fact.

Costs

None that I can think of....
Irish skangers are a real cost however.

If there are already a multitude of fabulous multicultural cities like New York, London, Paris, Los Angeles, Sydney, Rome, Berlin, Amsterdam....etc. Why would tourists want to come to Ireland? Why would they come to a small isolated cold & damp country to see the same things they can see in their own countries?

Originally posted by Gordon


Culture

Did you have a respective benefit when you did this bit?
Benefits

The spice of life is in the mix. The fact that your own culture is mixed with others can accentuate the sheer intricacies of your own and the view of your own culture can be hilighted like a colour in a rainbow when placed next to others. What good is a culture if you have nothing to compare it with?

Cost

None that I can think of....

That's all great in theory, but in practice, a culture cannot remain intact when it is mixed in with other cultures.

Like I said before, the 1st generation can't adapt to the new culture, so they build up little ethnic enclaves in the host country; the 2nd generation rejects both the culture of their parent's homeland, and the indigenous culture of their new country, to become some kind of "cultureless" "world-citizens" (which really means they become absorbed in fast cars, sex, violence, vulgur music etc (think Ali G ... which believe it or not is a very very real stereotype. Then the youth of the indigenous population become embarrassed by their own culture, so they reject it in favour of MTV....result total cultural destruction.

Originally posted by Gordon


Environment

benefits

You said that multiculturism created cheaper workforces. If this is true then these cheaper workforces will be able to clean up the mess made by knacker/skanger arses leaving their Burger King and Fish and Chip wrappers on the streets.

Costs

We may have to put up with different smells of aftershave when walking down the street.

Is that supposed to be funny? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Gordon


Crime

Benefits

I have no idea

Costs

I have no idea

As with economics, you seem to be proud of your ignorance...why don't you learn about it?

Originally posted by Gordon


Terrorism

Benefit

In my experience 'ethnic' people have a sense of care for their fellow man. 'Ethnic' people in my experience do not want to commit murder, it is the war lords and Fat Cats that do the real slaying.

Costs

None that I can think of...

In your experience.... Do you know that America, Australia, Britain and mainland Europe are on high security alert because of muslim terrorists that have infiltrated into the system and formed terrorist networks across the "western world". This has been possible because of the liberal immigration policies in every western country. You don't hear about muslim terrorist cells in Japan do you?

Originally posted by Gordon


Social harmony

Benefit

If people didn't judge someone based on their skin colour then there wouldn't be a problem. All would be rosy.

Costs:

Unfortunately an influx of refugees would create these racist people that judge a person by their skin type. It's a fact of life unfortunately.

Well, whether you like it or not, people do naturally form themselves into tribes based on physical appearance and race (which is more than just skin colour).

Zombrex

Originally posted by shanemac
trying to save you from the perils of a multicultural wasteland?

oh you have to laught don't you.

Show me one area of our culture, just one, that no longer exists because of immigration?

Immigration has no effect on our culture at all. Britney Spears and SKY Sports 1 erases more of Irelands culture in one minute than immigration will ever do.

I am so sick of that stupid argument that immigration will errode our culture. Look at the thousands of areas around the world where Irish immigrants have kept the Irish culture alive, even though being a small majority in most places (which btwdidn't errode the native cultures). And you think Ireland back home will lose its identity. You know nothing about the irish culture mate.

Irish culture has nothing more to fear from foreign cultures than foreign cultures had to fear from Irish culture.

Originally posted by shanemac
Why would tourists want to come to Ireland?Why would they come to a small isolated cold & damp country to see the same things they can see in their own countries?

You don't think much of our country do you? Kinda hard to take you seriously when you are insulting the place you claim to be trying to save.

Originally posted by shanemac
Do you know that America, Australia, Britain and mainland Europe are on high security alert because of muslim terrorists that have infiltrated into the system and formed terrorist networks across the "western world".

And ten years ago they were an high alert because of IRA activitly in Britian and mainland Europe. So by your logic no Irish person should have been allowed immigrate in the 90s ... ummmm good plan.

Ireland in the last 200 years has defined itself by its outward immigration. And as the Irish culture has spread around the world it is merged with foreign culture and, in my view, brought the distinctive flavour to other cultures. Now we are throwing up are arms and saying the Irish culture is about to be destroyed cause 10 black men just got off the boat. Millions upon millions of Irish people immigrated away from Ireland, did they destroy the cultures they came in contact with??

Tradition Irish culture is slowly being erroded by the general globlisation of mass media (as it is in ever other country). But even that massive force is only slowly denting away at traditional Irish culture. We still play GAA, still have pub sing alongs, still learn irish dancing.

It just bloggles the mind how someone can believe that immigration will have any effect in this area. Your arguments are based on hear say and fear, and vast over simplification.

Also by your logic Irish culture should have long destroyed every other culture in the western world.

OfflerCrocGod

Shane you are quite obviously a bigoted troll, really no other way to put it. Let's compare the most multicultural country in the world with the least shall we?, O.K. lacking in more then one culture ummm how about Afganisthan under Taleban rule pretty Mono or what eh!, now the most multi... easy the USA now choose which would you rather live in?. Maybe the reason why these muslim terrorists are "based" in the West (what are you basing that on one incident the 11 sept?), is because they, deep down, are just like you, they fear outside cultures taking over and engulfing theres. Now look at whom you're soulmates are Shane Muslim fundementalists, does that say a lot about you or what!.

Now piss of and join Al-Quaida

Gordon

Nice try but no meat and veg shanemac.

I find it lightheartening to know that your racism is for the good of my wealth, thanks for your racism it makes me rich. I'd like to thank you for your strivings to educate me in Economics also, futile they are. I did Economics in school and didn't do too shabby so took Business Studies at A level and didn't do too shabby. Once I got into this real world (tm) it seemed to matter less and less.

You need a high amount of 'ethnic' people for your precious Thai currys shanemac. The reason is that Asian people open up Asian stores for Asian people. They wouldn't open up if there was no Asian demand therefore an Asian community = Asian food.

Tourists do not come to Ireland to see Irish people so therefore your points have no credence. Tourists come to Ireland because of the structures and the landscapes and the book of Kells and the big green stupid hats and tacky merchandise that the Irish hate so much.

Culture breeds culture, culture can be many and one at the same time. Great isn't it. A culture can remain in tact with incoming cultures and I'll give you an example. Ireland. We still have hoards of tourists coming in their droves buying silly green hats and plastic paper weights with a blob of Guinness in the centre.

My point on the environment was most definately not a joke. Please reread it and inhale, then exhale if you like. I am astounded by your ignorance in that matter, why don't you learn about how Irish skangers are dirty feckers that make a complete mess on their own streets.

Crime: my ignorance in Crime is at least honest. I do not claim to know what I do not know and I would like you to do the same.

Terrorism: An answer to you - The IRA. You're right, though, I haven't heard of terrorist cells in Japan but then again I haven't heard of much else in Japan. Go figure!

Your final point on social harmony leads me to believe that you aren't a racist at heart at all. This warms me. People do naturally form themselves into tribes yes. People do not look down upon people in other tribes however. Only people that have an agenda that will eke any life force for the good of their own will do this.

I find it amazing how you complain about "lefties" being so deeply entrenched in their "lefty" ways that they wont see the woods for the trees. Amazing because you are taking the equal and opposite stance. As am I.

As noted - don't be afraid shanemac, there is help for you yet.

pete

Originally posted by shanemac
People are driven by envy, greed and tribalism

Hi shane. You forgot to add 'stupidity' to that list.

Kind of ironic.

DadaKopf

My God, that first post is just a list of ungrounded assumptions and false conclusions! It's nonsense. Just more racism dressed up to look like an argument.

And...

by shanemc
The Dublin 4/ Belrose types you mention are exactly the same types who have pushed multiculturalism here in Australia.

[...]

Down here in Oz

Are you even Irish? When was the last time you were in Ireland. Do you have a clue what's going on here? I mean, isn't Australia just another one of those countries where an invading hoarde destroyed an entire civilization? You have *no right* being in Australia, according to your own principles.

Me? I'm all for the freedom to move about. That's how things work on this planet. Tough ****.

pete

Originally posted by shanemac
Crime

Benefits

The old members of criminal gangs might be shot by immigrant gangs ?

Costs

In all countries with ethnic populations, the crime has been taken over by ethnics. This is true across Europe, America and Australia (although I'm sure lefties will deny the fact). (see link

hi shane

Hate to disappoint you, but that's NOT what that article (and i use that term loosely) or the ex-cop they quoted said. Increase in crime - yes. A "take over" of existing (WHITE) crime, no.

No need to worry about immigration increasing levels of violent crime in Ireland - our fine, upstanding racially pure white criminals are doing a fine job themselves on that front.

Meh

Originally posted by shanemac
Mercury tilt, Meh, Pete, Gordon (once he's finished his garbage round), Chill, Skyegirl, P.Pete.

Come on lefties, you are so educated.

Did you miss the part where I wasn't a leftist? Or did you just deliberately ignore it? I voted for the PDs last election, btw.

Stephen

Originally posted by shanemac:
"Once you go black you can never go back."

Fuck off back to stormfront you small-minded bigot piece of ****.

Victor

Do I have this right? Immigrants aren't welcome in Australia. We support Australia for Australians. Whites out of Australia.

Originally posted by shanemac
The Dublin 4/ Belrose types

Do you mean Belfield or Montrose?

Originally posted by shanemac
Down here in Oz, 30 years ago .... This was despite the fact that in every survey ever conducted, the vast majority of the population has been against I&M.

But back then, mos tof the immigrants were white, wern't they - the good old £10 tourists?

Originally posted by shanemac
5 years ago we had a maverick form a new party called One Nation .... Pauline Hanson got 3 years in prison without bail, for a technicality of the registration of her party.

Not quite - she appers to have given a list of names, wrongly identifying them as party members and then fraudulently raised money. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111104

Originally posted by shanemac
for a technicality of the registration of her party.

But the law is technical. She broke the law not just in the registration, but also in the fundraising.

Originally posted by shanemac
The law-suit was arranged and funded by the main so-called conservative political party (Liberals) and contributions from big business. Of course several lawyers worked pro-bono on the case.

"law-suit"? - these were criminal charges.

Originally posted by shanemac
This is political collusion and corruption of the highest order and it's only just now coming to light.

A bit rich isn't it?

mike65

Boy this is depressing..."sham-mac" is obviouly impervious to reason or logic and as racist bigots never change thier spots maybe the best course of action would be to let him post to his hearts content and just leave him to it....

Mike.

Sarky

It's entertaining though. I'd almost become gay , start Judaism and surgically darken my skin just to annoy these folks...

Mercury_Tilt

This post has been deleted.

shanemac

Originally posted by Wicknight
oh you have to laught don't you.

Show me one area of our culture, just one, that no longer exists because of immigration?

Immigration has no effect on our culture at all. Britney Spears and SKY Sports 1 erases more of Irelands culture in one minute than immigration will ever do.

It just bloggles the mind how someone can believe that immigration will have any effect in this area. Your arguments are based on hear say and fear, and vast over simplification.

Also by your logic Irish culture should have long destroyed every other culture in the western world.

A culture is just how the people in a society act and interact with each other. It encompasses such things as dress, dance, language, sense of humour, social activities, music, sports, etc....

As such, "culture" will never cease to exist...people will always create their own culture. However, the unique national culture of a country is bound inevitably to change in some small way, when someone from a foreign culture brings their culture into the mix.

Now, one person bringing their own culture you may say is an enriching thing, and it can't be bad. But one foreign national leads to another, and another, and soon they comprise 25-50% of your population. This has happened all over Europe and Australia in the space of 20-30 short years. It starts out small and everyone's happy, but they gradually build up the numbers to become a sub-culture, which must be placed on an "equal footing" so as not to offend them....hence the concept of multiculturalism.

There are lots of cultures that have changed irreversibly across the world. Sydney, London, Paris....have you been to any of these places?

You say my views on multiculturalism are based on ignorance.....on the contrary, my views are based on real experience of living in a very multicultural city for the last 15 years (and in mono-cultural Ireland of the 80's before that). Your rosy-eyed view of multiculturalism on the other hand seems to be formed by wishy-washy liberal thinking. (Dr Martin Luther King's dream; American Declaration of Independence)....these things are pipe-dreams that appeal to an idealised world without any reference at all to hard-wired human nature.

You have obviously formed your views from those great civics classes where your class would sit in a circle your bespeckled yet oh so cool civics teachers would talk about how great other cultures are, and how much we've got to learn from them. I've been there mate....and you can take it from me it's a crock of sh**.

Carpo

Originally posted by shanemac


There are lots of cultures that have changed irreversibly across the world. Sydney, London, Paris....have you been to any of these places?

How exaclty has the culture of Paris or London changed? Is Paris any less French than it used to be or has the Paris culture been somehow reduced by immigrants?

Originally posted by shanemac

and soon they comprise 25-50% of your population

Where does this figure come from?

Originally posted by shanemac

I've been there mate....and you can take it from me it's a crock of sh**.

This really reminded me of something from a Terry Pratchett book

'Sergeant Colon had had a broad education. He'd been to the School of My Dad Always Said, the College of It Stands to Reason, and was now a post-graduate student at the University of What Some Bloke In the Pub Told Me.'

shanemac

Care to elaborate on the delicious irony in your comparison?

Carpo

Originally posted by shanemac
Care to elaborate on the delicious irony in your comparison?

Nothing too sinister ... just the obvious point that if you dont back up arguments with facts or at least strong logical reasoning then all youre saying is effectivly "cos I said so" or in this case "..and you can take it from me.." (plus I thought it was funneh)

For instance, in the above post you say that the cultures of both London and Paris have been "changed irreversibly" (and by implication negativly) by multicultureism, but fail to elaborate on how exactly these specific examples have been changed.

You also say if you allow other cultures into your country they will quickly comprise 25-50% of the population, but fail to say where this figure came from.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by shanemac
Your rosy-eyed view of multiculturalism on the other hand seems to be formed by wishy-washy liberal thinking. (Dr Martin Luther King's dream; American Declaration of Independence)....these things are pipe-dreams that appeal to an idealised world without any reference at all to hard-wired human nature.

Riiight. It's becoming clear now. Your ideal vision of monoculturalism is America in the 60's. Gotcha. "Separate but equal," right? Dem was de days, Joxer, dem was de days. :rolleyes:

BTW, wasn't your hard-wiring theory debunked already?

dathi1

I thought this was going to be a good debate on Multiculturalism in Ireland but its turned into a Stormfront V Boards members debate. On reflection its a bad idea to post views on this topic started by SF members as it muddies the waters with national socialists and lefty socialists flinging it out.

I don't think multiculturalism is a good idea though.

Wook

your a scary man shanemac...

Imaging a country with your ideals...
'jegh'

TuathaDeDanaan

To Carpo,
Obviously there are overstatements. But its true that there are for instance 6 million muslims in france, that there are areas of Paris where a girl is very likely to be raped if not wearing the hajib or other coverings. Ant-semetic violence has increased there also.. These are changes. Londons Inner city has been radcally transformed since immigration began there.

Also an assertion was made, obviously if you allow 10,000+ immigrants into a country per year they will reach high percentages of the population. Check out californias percentages of mexicans within its borders now.(the main reason for its overspeanding problem too i might add).

there are countries with shanemacs dieals too, take japan or china for instance. or in fact most non western countries.

Wook

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan


Also an assertion was made, obviously if you allow 10,000+ immigrants into a country per year they will reach high percentages of the population. Check out californias percentages of mexicans within its borders now.(the main reason for its overspeanding problem too i might add).

erhm , California actually got rich by letting 'them' mexicans in and do the hard labour of fruit and process work.
Many of 'these' people are treated like less-then-crap for the job their doing. If the illegals didnt find work there and 'white' folks who offer jobs, do you think they would still be comming in there ?

Zombrex

shanemac
However, the unique national culture of a country is bound inevitably to change in some small way, when someone from a foreign culture brings their culture into the mix.

Err that is how culture is created. Culture by definition is an evolution of society.

An example – Christianity was an idea imported from the Middle East and brought to Ireland by a Welsh man. The Celts brought our language (Irish) from middle Europe and Italy. Our alphabet is based on Roman and Greek. Our justice system is based on the English system, which in turn is based on the Roman system. The potato was imported from the Americas. If you have blond hair you are descendent from Scandinavian settlers. If you have very dark skin you are probably descendent from shipwrecked Spanish sailors. Modern rock and roll, jazz and blues are imported from the United States, which in turn got it from Africa. The computer and internet which has changed society and culture for ever was imported to Ireland from the US and Asia. We watch 10 times more foreign television channels than domestic ones. Movies from Hollywood and music from Berlin influence our artistic culture.

No culture stays still, no culture stays stagnant. The Irish culture continues to evolve and change due to both internal and external influences. Even the expression of culture changes the culture itself. Look at the evolution of the Irish language, or the evolution of Irish dance. This was happening long before your idea of modern immigration (early 90s).

You seem to fear change, ignoring the fact that change is what “culture” is. You seem to believe that foreign influences can only have a damaging effect on culture, though you have never actually explained why you believe this.

Ironically you give examples of London and Paris, two cities where foreign cultures have successfully blended with native culture to produce a better richer society. London is still the English city. Paris is still the French city. Both are shinning symbols for their country’s history and continuously evolving cultures. The only major trouble that this multiculturalism faced was racism by people like you.

You also seem to have no grasp on irony. You are an immigrant preaching about the dangers of immigration. You have lived in both Ireland and Australia (I am assuming you moved to Australia). The other irony is of course that Australia is a country formed on immigration (like the US). The “culture” you feel is being destroyed in Sydney is not the native culture, it is itself an imported culture, imported mostly from Britain.

How you expect anyone to take you seriously is beyond me.

Zombrex

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan
But its true that there are for instance 6 million muslims in france, that there are areas of Paris where a girl is very likely to be raped if not wearing the hajib or other coverings.

I am pretty certain there was rape in Paris before immigration.

There are areas of Dublin where a girl is likely to be raped ... last time I check most scumbags in Dublin weren't muslim.

Do you believe that there is something inherent to being muslin or being an immigrant that makes you rape people?

Rape and crime are aspects in all society. It is silly to single out a immigration group and say "look they rape people." It is present in the domestic society as well.

BuffyBot

Is your website here representative of the mainstream of Irish society, or is it disproportionately represented by left-wing types? If your positions are representative of the general population in Ireland, then there really is no hope for Ireland, and it's just a matter of time before Ireland as a nation ceases to exist.

Oh lordy. I made this post before I read this thread. I think pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by dathi1


I don't think multiculturalism is a good idea though.

Well, you now know there is a jolly band of perfectly normal, well rounded people who agree with you on stormfront.org

If these people are a representative sample of those opposed to multi-culturalism, then all I can say is that it must be a good idea.

Victor

Originally posted by shanemac
Now, one person bringing their own culture you may say is an enriching thing, and it can't be bad. But one foreign national leads to another, and another, and soon they comprise 25-50% of your population. This has happened all over Europe and Australia in the space of 20-30 short years.

Black slaves had been imported through Bristol and Cardiff(?) since something like 1600. I don't see them taking up 25-50% of the British population yet?

dathi1

If these people are a representative sample of those opposed to multi-culturalism, then all I can say is that it must be a good idea.

You don't have to be a neo nazi or white supremacist to think / know that multiculturalism doesn't work. There are too many examples worldwide. Under the dictatorship of Tito in Yugoslavia it worked for 35 years then all hell broke lose as people scrambled to their respective cultures. Same goes for Singapore in the 1960's after the mass slaughter of ethnic Chinese it took a totalitarian regime to keep the lid on what they call today "One Country many cultures". I have two fairly good friends from Malaysia here who taught me all about multiculturalism there and how immigration control is essential to maintaining a balance and stability for the majority Malays.

Zombrex

It is a bit insulting to think that Irish people are going to start slaughtering Africans in the streets.

Immigration and multiculturalism works if the society allows it to work. There are plenty of examples of this (the European Union for one). Multiculturalism fails when hatred and racism is allowed to win out.

I refuse to accept that Irish people cannot rise above this petty hatred and animalistic bigotry. If they do then there is no reason why multiculturalism won't work in Ireland.

TuathaDeDanaan

erhm , California actually got rich by letting 'them' mexicans in and do the hard labour of fruit and process work.
Many of 'these' people are treated like less-then-crap for the job their doing. If the illegals didnt find work there and 'white' folks who offer jobs, do you think they would still be comming in there ?

Wheres your statistics? California has billions of dollers worth of debt now, this is well known, fact, where your source?


Of course big business wants cheap labour, the PD's for instance are big into cheap labour, it doesnt make it ethical though does it? If you speak to any economist they'll tell you there is no such thing as a labour shortage. People wont pay the good wage. Simple as that. I'm not interested if low cost labourer's are treated like crap, im interested in facts not emotion. obviously this thread is full of people who believe if someone has a hard life they have special migratory privileges..

Btw Silicon valley has a hell of a lot more to do with income to californias coffers then the orange pickers.

y'know what else:

want to read more...
http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/freedom_ride.htm


and Wicknight the european union isnt a multicultural society its a nationstate western federation of liberal democracies.
Examples of multicultural countries include , the US, Brazil, Mexico, Israel, China(all of which are not above racism). Arrogance to think the irish are above human nature hurts us. The Sin of Pride.

Meh

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan
Of course big business wants cheap labour, the PD's for instance are big into cheap labour, it doesnt make it ethical though does it?

What's unethical about cheap labour? If I'm willing to pay my employees €1 an hour, and they're willing to work for €1 an hour, what exactly is your problem with that?

If you speak to any economist they'll tell you there is no such thing as a labour shortage.

An economist will tell you no such thing. Labour is a good like any other, and as such, it is subject to the laws of supply and demand.

(Now let's see shanemac call me a leftie )

dathi1

It is a bit insulting to think that Irish people are going to start slaughtering Africans in the streets.

I tried to find the preposterous post that you refer to but I cant find it above?

Immigration and multiculturalism works if the society allows it to work. There are plenty of examples of this (the European Union for one).

With the rise of Vans bloc, Northern league, Front National, BNP etc..Europe is hardly an example of Multicultural acceptance.

Multiculturalism fails when hatred and racism is allowed to win out. I refuse to accept that Irish people cannot rise above this petty hatred and animalistic bigotry. If they do then there is no reason why multiculturalism won't work in Ireland.

So if our history is anything to go by?
The sensible alternative is to stop uncontrolled immigration to minimise the impact, social and economic on the native population.
This is probably one of the most important issues to face this country since the Ulster plantation.

GuanYin

I'm not an economist, but neither is shanemac it seems so like him, I can only give my opinion.

Cost-Benefit Analysis of multiculturalism

Food

Benefit
Before the 70's Ireland didn't even have a MacDonalds, Chinese take-aways were unheard of. and Pasta was seen as an exotic food. Besides the fact that variety is a good thing for the consumer, the influx of foreign cuisine and restaurants is a huge trade area, providing employment, revenue for the government, and complimenting our tourist industry.

Cost

There is no real "cost" in this area. ethic populations have no effect on the amount of people applying to catering courses or chef apprenticships in Ireland. Nor is their any saturation of the employment sector with new take aways and restaurants opening all over the country every week.

As an aside, the recent bounties of the celtic tiger mean that many irish people, barring teenagers and students, feel they are above working at this level of the service industry. Few Irish people will work in McDonalds or Take Aways and at restaurants as they feel this level of work beneath them. Most of these vacancies have been taken up by ethnic minorities, and despite the recent downfall in fortunes in employment here, if every job in this area became available, it is doubtful that there would be enough Irish people willing to fill them as full time employees.

Economy

Benefit

Many of the arguments here are carried over from the previous section. The low end service industries are not exactly saturated and it is these areas that have a high percentage of foreign employees. In professional positions, skills, experience and education are the factor in employment and any company will rightly employ the most qualified person for the job, regardless of the employees origin.

Cost

Ireland is not experiencing good economic conditions at present (when was the last time you were actually here?) and this is largely due to a government that has been severely mis-managed by alot of white men in suits.

However, the service and tourism industry is probably largely unaffected by this and working class and unskilled workers are not the ones having the biggest problems with employment (not the ones who actually want to find jobs anyway). The areas most affected are the IT and technical industries and the high cost of living and withdrawal of government tax incentives means that most of these companies are leaving.

Tourism

Benefit
Many of the service end jobs in the tourism industry are taken by forien immigrants. Much the same way as Irish students in chicago take similar jobs. Many of these jobs are undesireable as full time employment to irish people who feel that "they are beneath them" (what jobs exactly these people want is a mystery to me).

Costs
Most of Ireland cultural tourism is based outside the cities where large populations of foreign immigrants are not abundant. Tourism within the cities in the forms of restaurants, hotels and entertainment services need to be staffed. These jobs are unskilled and generally offer poor wage.

Culture

Ya know, I'm beginning to get the feeling that Irish genes are a bit shallow and may need some fresh injection. But seriously, Where has culture ever been destroyed by immigrants? US and Australia? American indians and Aboriganies are the natives of these lands and all "americans" and "australians" are really just Eurpoeans (thank you Zach delaRocha). They can hardly complain that their "culture" is diluted seeing as its a foreign culture to begin with. It wasn't immigrants that wantedto knock down the building where the 1916 uprising ended, it was the white-suits who wanted to build office blocks.

As far as multicultual influences, take New Orleans, and incredible melting pot of latin, african, french and spanish cultures all mixed together into the most vibrant place america has to offer.

Irish culture has never been under threat by anything bar american TV. This has nothing to do with immigration.


Environment

benefits

One could argue that the rise in population in cities has pushed the trend in accomodation building from housing to apartments, which in turn saves land and green belts from ravage by housing estates.

Costs

The average Dubliner has little to no kinship with land or heritage (bar maybe the Guinness Brewery). It is true that larger populatiuon creates more waste, however again the upsurge in population means that the government has had to rethink its environmental policy. We've seen a few upshoots of this such as the plastic bags and the wheelie bins.

Crime

Benefits

Are there benefits to crime?

Costs

You claim that "crime is taken over by ethnics". So by that arguement what you are really saying is that ethnic populations are criminals? Wow, mass generalisation there.

Funnily the places with spiraling crime rates like Limerick don't have too many immigrants being caught or charged. Seem to be all white people. Oh, The recent spate of murders in the midlands and south, white people caught for those.

The fact is, in a mulitcultural society, different races will always set up gangs (tribes) based on their ethnic origin. This is a human biological instinct.

I'll stop here to quote this. You are not only wrong but have no clue about human biological instinct. What you are referring to is memetics. Its the notion that ideas and dispositions are learned and passed through a society much the way as genes are passed through a population. Unlike genes however, memes can be altered, rejected and changed. There is no biological instinct that disposes anyone towards crime (I have a list of 13K human genes on my desktop and there is no "ethnic criminal gene" that I can see). Pre-existing gangs set up gangs not ethnic minorities. Race and colour are incidental. If you started a multi-cultual society from 5000 babies of different races growing uptogether, you can be damn dure that any criminal gangs that evolved would be multi-racial (the basis of this experiment was done in Harvard by Bernal et al. in 1964, in summary, children in a multi racial environment did not make any race discrimination in forming groups and affiliations).

In any case back on track. Irish gangs and criminal elements are a much larger problem here and although there are reports of foreign criminal gangs, they are a much smaller issue than the IRA splinters and organised Irish crime.

Terrorism

Benefit

"The IRA and UDA might get some competition."

You mean some islamic fundamentalists might come in and start fighting over the north?

Why?


Costs

Strangely there are quite a few white americans and british in guantanamo for terrorism acts. Most acts of terrorism are belief system based, not race or culture based. They are extremists and you don't need to be from any muslim country or to have set foot there to be an muslim extremist (as the FBI and CIA found out).
Blaming terrorism on immigration or suggesting it contributes is laughable. The muslim "cells" that travel don't travel to set up a new life, they travel to kill and could have travelled on an extended holiday to do the same terrorist job.

Social harmony

Benefit

On the whole the immigrants aren't the ones causing disharmony. Its not in their interest to. Why cause a problem where you are (a) in a huge minority (b) where a change in policy may have you deported.

Costs:
Greed etc are universal follies it is true, but any cost to social harmont isn't coming from the immigrants themselves. Generally its from the likes of institutions like stormfront that scaremonger and provoke. Racial distrubances take two parties to instigate.


Result:

While immigration should by no means be an open door policy right now, working towards a true multicultural society can be of immence benefit to Ireland. Unfortunately immigrant workers are heavily exploited in some cases in Ireland at present and to say that they are accepting lower wages to do Irish people out of jobs is ridiculous. Centra, MacDonalds, Cleaning staffs, all these positions are jobs that Irish people now seem to deem themselves to good for. Students did the jobs for a while, but now most will look for data entry and call centre jobs and such with the rise in IT jobs here. As a result immigrants now hold a large percentage of the service level jobs. In areas where there simply aren't enough professionals to fill a sector (ie. Nursing and Medical) we need to get skilled people to do the jobs. Many foreign workers in publci health are in this country. A large percentage come from countries where the health service isn't as good as ireland (which is why there are less foreign white people in these jobs). We need them and should be thankful to have them (service and professionals).

p.pete

Originally posted by shanemac
There is a large section of society who have fully formed views and who will never change, no matter what evidence is presented before them.

How insightful:D

TuathaDeDanaan

Allowing people to work for 1 euro an hour is unethical because it drives down wages for those already here. Self Interest is natural.

Labour subject to the laws of supply and demand, yeah sure but large changes in the balance of workers have unnecessary bad effects on irish workers. Lower wages. A pure business interest would want the gates open to to do jobs on the cheap or have highly skilled say indian workers do high tech computer jobs on the cheap to the detriment of students graduating here.

sykeirl

Ireland is a homeland for irish people. every country has a homeland. The US and Australia have no bearing on us. why dont you try and encourage the japanese to become less opposed to immigration for instance, are you a anti-US or australian? There is no benifit in becoming brazil like, no benifit to allow competing groups of ethnic minorities in to compete for resources with us.

Bring up genetics?
Dont believe that human nature is affected by genetics?
Read
The Blank Slate
Steven Pinker
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670031518/qid=1062426414/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7302737-6822318

Those in guantanamo for terrorism acts are converts to islam. They rejected the western liberal ideal for fundamentalist islam. They have rejected the west and her christian tradition. Dont believe the west is rooted in christianity?, talk to joe bloggs or any turk and they'll tell you exactly why this is.

GuanYin

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan

sykeirl

Ireland is a homeland for irish people. every country has a homeland. The US and Australia have no bearing on us. why dont you try and encourage the japanese to become less opposed to immigration for instance, are you a anti-US or australian? There is no benifit in becoming brazil like, no benifit to allow competing groups of ethnic minorities in to compete for resources with us.

Compete for resources? Wha? Are we log gathering? What resources are we competing for?

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan
Bring up genetics?
Dont believe that human nature is affected by genetics?
Read
The Blank Slate
Steven Pinker
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0670031518/qid=1062426414/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/104-7302737-6822318

I didn't bring up genetics, shanemac did. In any case, So? Human nature as a society isn't genetics linked. It is, if anything memetic. sociopathic and psychopathic behaviour can be a result of genetics, but its not at all the same thing. Oh and I don't need to read the book. I've 2 postgraduate qualifications and 15 publications in the field of genetics thank you very much.

Originally posted by TuathaDeDanaan
Those in guantanamo for terrorism acts are converts to islam. They rejected the western liberal ideal for fundamentalist islam. They have rejected the west and her christian tradition. Dont believe the west is rooted in christianity?, talk to joe bloggs or any turk and they'll tell you exactly why this is.

Well stormfront rejects chritianity? Are they terrorists too? Aren't the KKK classed as terrorist organisation? What about East german libertarian front? A terrorost group. Anyone of any colour from any nation can be a terrorist. You don't need to be an immigrant, from an ethnic miniority or to have left your own country to be one.