Krav Maga

jkennedy

As a full time student of Krav Maga in Dublin, allow me to clarify the situation as best i can.
First of all, Krav Maga is indeed taught by Patrick Cumiskey who is the only Krav Maga instructor in the country, having be personally trained and awarded his instructors qualification under Eyal Yanilof of Israel.
i originally did a 12 week induction course which included an extra 4 hour FAST Defence training and two full days training with Jim Wagner. Make no mistake, the training is quite effective, techniques are easily learned and retained, Caters for people who have previous martial arts background but also those with none, if anything those with a background in traditional martial arts are at a disadvantage in that the entire mindset must be changed. Student are taught to be 'prepared for the unprepared'. The first thing that is discussed is that fighting (as in street altercations etc) is bad news and try to avoid it at all costs where possible. Krava Maga is something which should be used only where there is no option of walking away or when you have been involved in an unprovoked attack. Many techniques are even discussed to avoid fights in the first place.
The course covered many topics such as basic punches, kicks, blocks on to defence from attacks with sticks knives and other weapons, attacks from for than one person and adrenilin stress management. Class sizes are kept to a minimum of 20 people which gives you almost personal tuition.
The course was expensive and at the start i did think it was a lot of money for 12 weeks, however there was an extra 4 hour class on FAST Defence plus the training with Jim Wagner.
Fast Defence was all about adrenilin stress mgt, to put it bluntly the guy who runs this along with Dave Shorter (Master Instructor in Krav Maga UK) came over, dressed up in all this gear (along with Patrick), like the stuff they wear in American Football and ran one on one fights with students. When i say fights you would face one of these guys in the middle of the floor, they would verbally assault you first, then try to attack you. OK they would'nt punch or kick but they would try and pin you down, give a few hard slaps, the student can (and must) respond with immediate force as soon as the fights starts and keep going until they are on the ground. Because they are protected we can punch (altough palm shots are preferable) Knee to the groin, throw, kick etc.
Its about the closesthing to a real fight without getting seriously hurt! What the exercise showed me was that once the **** hits the fan and your in the thick of it any ideas of doing flying kicks in the air or Steven Segal stuff goes out the window in 5 seconds- thats the adrenilin flowing through the body. For me this was definitley one of the highlights of the course. We havent trained in the dark - yet! but we did an exercise that night where we were attacked with our eyes closed and had to battle our way out! Check out fastdefense.com for more info.
As for Jim Wagner, what can i say, ifyou have heared of this guy then you know what hes made of, probably one of the best reality-based instructor i have heared of, not to mention his personal CV. As a former solider, cop, Swat team officer, sky marshal, bodyguard, jailor his experience his incredible. He took us for a crime survival course, a mixture of both practice and theory, training and many exercises. Not many places in Ireland that can boast this guy on the course manual!
For more info see www.jimwagnertraining.com
So was money well spent, yes i honestly think it was and i know Patrick is bringing Eyal over at some pont in the near future for a session or two, should be interesting.
Hope this clears up the air about Krav Maga!
WWW.kravmagaireland.ie


:cool:

UbahOne

I just pm'd you.

Evil Phil

That link is broken, it's http://www.kravmagaireland.com. I'm checking it out now.

ZeFrog

Hi

Apparently the person to ask is:

pcumiskey@ireland.com

I have found this email on the official website of the Krav Maga

http://www.krav-maga.com/trainers.htm

I sent an email to request info.

:ninja:

UbahOne

its all the way down in north brunswick street. thats the problem for me. its miles out! damn...

ToxicPaddy

Krav Maga is something that I would love to do, but to be honest its just too damn expensive as someone had already said in another post. If you lowered the price a bit then you would be able to run multiple classes during the week and make a hell of a lot more from it..

Millionaire

Hi

I have done the 12 week Krav Maga course under pAtrick and I tell you it is well worth the money!

I have close to 20 years martial arts experience from kickboxing through to some traditional training, and Krav Maga is the best training I have ever seen.

KM will really show you how to defend yourself, and it is pure street survival techniques, and lots of dirty tricks which is really the only techniques that work on the street and you can learn it fast. I went back to a kickboxing class a few weeks ago and found it totally boring when compared to Krav Maga.

I would recommend anyone to do the KM training. I actually intend to do the KM course again next year, I found it to be that good.

Ronaldo7

too expensive and out in the north Brunswick street? Get it going in a few more places around suburban areas and reduce the price and id be more than happy to do it...

Millionaire

Hi Ronaldo

Ok location may be an issue for you.

But too expensive...I tell you that is simply not true. What will cost you more 375 euro which is about €1 per day, or will it cost you more if you get attacked some night, and cannot properly defend yourself. What matters more saving your life or that of a loved one, or paying €1 per day in order to learn how to really defend yourself.

I tell you I have been through all of the martial stuff for years and alot of it will not work for most people in a real street situation...and I know this cause I have been in a few dangerous scrapes myself this past few years.

KM training will give you a street advantge the likes of which you have never seen. Its pure simple, but totally lethal techiques that really work. Honestly got the money and try it.

bugler

Actually the price listed now is €425 for the twelve week course. The course taking the shape of 2 hours a week for 12 weeks. That's €17.70 an hour by my reckoning. In London KM cost £10 for a two hour session, with two of these on weekly. This followed a cost of £25 for a 4 hour induction course, to bring everyone up to speed. So essentially an hour in London cost €7.19, which speaks for itself really. But what else have we come to expect in good old Ireland?

It is expensive, however good it may be. I was delighted to have the chance to do it while in London, I don't live in Dublin anyway so its arrival to these shores was fairly irrelevant to me. But it's a shame that Irish people are once again being ripped off by comparison with...ohh...EVERYONE else.

gollem_1975

hi there , could you post some details regarding the course you attended in the london area.

thanks in advance.

bugler

All the info you need is on www.kravmaga.co.uk . As you'll see, the next induction is on Nov 16th. It's just a 4 hour run down of the basic techniques and a bit of KM's history etc.

(someguy)

the whole krav maga thing has always seemed like a fad to me. Sure all techniques you learned in karate or whatever go out the window when you're attacked, but then just kick the groin, eye gouge or strike the throat/temple. These all come quite naturally and you sure as hell dont need to pay all that money for them .

Seems to be giving false ( and maybe dangerous ) hope too, 12 weeks training is nowhere near enough to to learn how to defend against weapon attacks properly. I know they tell you to still be careful, but after people have done it a few times and more importantly paid money to be thought it, they will think it works and that they can pull it off.
And beside going to a reasonably priced martial art like muay thai or brazilian jiu jitsu regularly for a few years not only makes you fit and strong but also makes you far more adept then any overpriced krav maga class

ToxicPaddy

Originally posted by (someguy)
the whole krav maga thing has always seemed like a fad to me. Sure all techniques you learned in karate or whatever go out the window when you're attacked, but then just kick the groin, eye gouge or strike the throat/temple. These all come quite naturally and you sure as hell dont need to pay all that money for them .

Seems to be giving false ( and maybe dangerous ) hope too, 12 weeks training is nowhere near enough to to learn how to defend against weapon attacks properly. I know they tell you to still be careful, but after people have done it a few times and more importantly paid money to be thought it, they will think it works and that they can pull it off.
And beside going to a reasonably priced martial art like muay thai or brazilian jiu jitsu regularly for a few years not only makes you fit and strong but also makes you far more adept then any overpriced krav maga class

I have to agree there...

12 weeks is no where near enough.. but its enought to lul
someone into a false sense of security.. i dont care what anyone
teaches me, if someone pulls a knife on you, you're gonna get
worried and possibly make a mistake which could be a fatal one..

At least if your training in something for years, your instinct
takes over and you dont really think about it.. you just act on
what you've been taught.. but 12 weeks would barely get you up
to speed on how to punch properly..

Tox

Millionaire

12 weeks training in Krav Maga will still give you a serious edge if you are attacked. As somone who has trained for a good few years in kickboxing and some trad martial arts, I can tell you that people with no martial arts background at all can do the techniques in Krav Maga just as well as an experienced person. And I was pretty amazed myself when I saw this happening. KM is very very simple techniques and very street fighting dirty, and that is what is going to work in a real situation. Remember most serious street fighters only have 1 or 2 techniques but they work for them most of the time....if you read any of Geoff Thompsons stuff or see his videos this will back up what I am saying. So the point I am trying to make, a someone who has experience in martial arts, 12 weeks Krav Maga will give you a much better edge for REAL defense that works than say 1 or 2 years traditional martial training. And most people doing Krav Maga here who have training in other martial arts systems, will tell you they have no interest in going back to their old style after doing KM, as they know it works. I would say be more open about it and give the training a try and you will find it complements your other training better.

Ronaldo7

Hey man,

Just get the location sorted. It would be great if you could. From Cabinteely to North Brunswick street just cant possibly happen. Puleasssse

Dinny

You have all heard what the students of Krav Maga have to say about it, and so far I havent heard a negative comment. We all paid the full fee for the course, we all thought it was very expensive (and I am a full time student, so money is an issue). Ask me after the course ended did i still think it was expensive? No, worth every single cent and more. As for location, if you live in Dublin getting to the city centre is not a problem. Nth Brunswick st is a 15 minute walk from O'Connell Bridge, Christchurch, Dame St (and yes I have walked it). Why is it you will study a Martial Art a couple of nights a week for years on end but you all seem to have a major issue with a 15 minute walk from a centre location that everyone has access to? The course I did (I did the 2 day course, 8.30am to 6.30pm both days) had people travel from Wexford, Belfast, Laois etc.

I don't study any martial arts but I was still skeptical about what could be learned in two days (or 12 weeks) so i do understand those who have being skeptical. All I say is get in contact with Patrick Cumiskey, talk to the guy. You will find he is very fair and accommodating and if he can help, he will. If you want to know what he is like as an instructor, do the course, we can sing his praises from now to eternity (and probably will if you ask one of the people who have recently been attacked and quite possibly owe their lives to this guy!). What he teaches us, we hope we will never have to use.

Stay Safe!!!

Puck

This is a serious question now not a criticism:

If the moves are so simple and natural then I know them already so what's the point?

Millionaire

The point of taking the course, would be at the end of the course, you get to try out your moves full blast under lets say...."live battle conditions". and there are very few types of self defense systems that lets you do this. And I am not talking about putting on 16oz gloves and having a good heavy spar either. which is obviously a great thing to do too, however KM offers you a very unique way of pressure testing your techniques.

Ok the moves are based on Some of your natural body movements, however I would not say that one would know them all until you actually do the KM course, as my eyes have been pleasantly opened to alot of new, simple and very very effective self defense techniques.

Your only answer is to try the course yourself, what you learn may save your life some day.

Puck

Originally posted by Millionaire
Your only answer is to try the course yourself, what you learn may save your life some day.

That's the thing though. At a price of €425 I can't "just try" it. What if I just try it and find out that it's 24 hours of teaching me stuff I already know.

I mean I know how and when to hit someone, I know how to stay out of trouble and I know how and when to run like Hell (which, given my size, is often the best course of action).

To be honest the best thing I could see myself getting out of any "practical" self-defence course (i.e. simple, natural moves) would be stuff like increased fitness, stamina, coordination, reflexes and speed, which in my opinion cannot be gotten in 24 hours.

Ronaldo7

LOCATION! No i aint going on a one hour bus journey twice a week and then a 15 minute walk from the city centre to the place...its well out and its in a total kip. Id probably get mugged and beaten up before i even learn any self defence.

Millionaire

Some usefal Facts

By describing smithfield as a kip - you say more about yourself than the people who live there

Its actually not a kip - the training area is in a refurbished warehouse compklex with print galleries and yoga schools suurounding it.
The area is actually very safe and I know of no incidents in the six months that Ive been going there


The training are is purpose built with showers, changing rooms, and all required equipment - one of the best in the country

And finally the most useful

You should do the two full day course
The fee for the February course is 275 for those who register before xmas

More excuses?

Puck

€275 is still two expensive for a 24 hour course (2 days or 12 weeks) to teach me stuff that I could know already. I couldn't care where it in Dublin, it's all the one to me if I have to come up there from Co. Tipperary. If I am dissatisfied with the course do I get my money back? I prefer courses that have a charge per class or at least have weekly/monthly fee, it gives me the impression that the teachers are actually confident that what they're providing is worth the money instead of conning people out of it by making them pay upfront.

Ronaldo7

By describing smithfield as a kip - you say more about yourself than the people who live there

Maybe you should realise that the quays are the way most people would go to get there...i dont know about you, but i see drug addicts every single day and evening at O'Connel Bridge or the surrounding areas. I dont/will not be arsed going into that place because 1) its in a truly terrible location. 2) Its hassle for me to get there even though i live about an hour away on the bus. 3) LOCATION. Get it going in the suburbs and give people a trial and then i guarantee more people would be interested if your successful. It seems to me more money is spent on the actual krav maga website trying to sell books on "how to get washboard abs". Talk about a scam...

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Ronaldo7
1) its in a truly terrible location.

Have you ever even been to smithfield/N Brunswick street? I lived off it for a year and the worst thing I saw between there and town was the drunks stumbling back to their hostel on morningstar avenue. Its 99% apartment blocks ffs.

Maybe you should try a class in positivity.

I for one am very interested krav maga and Im kicking myself for not finding out about it when I lived there.....

Ronaldo7

im not talking about safety primarily here...its just in an awkward location for me and the rest of my mates who want to do it.

Unpossible

I did traditional Krav Maga with a teacher in tralee about four years ago, I got to yellow belt. He left two years ago and nobody knows where he went.

His name was Jimmy O Brien, he trained and taught in New York under a guy called Eric Zozar (sp) who was a seargent in the Israel army.

I may be in NUI Maynooth next year and am interested in taking it up again

Millionaire

Jaysus mate...I think you were had if you did KM in Tralee and got a yellow belt...becuase there is no belts in KM. in factwe train in street clothes.

Also there is only one offical KM instructor in Ireland, who is listed on the offical KM site..and That is Patrick C who is teaches in smithfield.

Unpossible

There is only one now, the guy in tralee used to demonstrate in america (we have seen the tv footage of when he appeared on CNN)

taken from kravmaga.no
"One interesting result of this was Krav Maga`s use of belts. In the early system Imi did not use belts in training, because it was a millitary system. But seeking recognition from his fellow martial artists he designed a belt system based on the Judo system of white-yellow-orange-green-blue-brown-black. The system was didived into grades making it easier to orginize. He also started training in gi`s (white judo training suits). In the 90`s however Imi desided that belts no longer should be a part of the system as it originally did not have a place there and that the use of belts did not have any realistic or practical meening in the system. The system of grades was kept, but the belts was taken out and replaced with a system of Practitioner/Graduate/Expert levels. The training suits today also consist of black pants and white t-shirts.
Some countries still use the belts in the curriculum, but not in training. "

the belt system was simply something he brought over from the school he was taught in

Repli

This isnt the place to discuss Dublins growing crime problem
Keep it on topic please

dudara

Does anyone of any up and coming Krav Maga courses, preferably in Cork?

HostMan

Personally, I would be willing to part with the cash if I thought I would benefit from it (and I would, I'm not the fighting type at all), however I'm suspiscious of some of the posts here. They appear to be a bit too knowledgable... as if they are the instructors...

Millionaire

I train in KM and have done a few courses, but I am not an instructor or anything. I just feel it is a really good style.

Ronaldo7

Originally posted by HostMan
Personally, I would be willing to part with the cash if I thought I would benefit from it (and I would, I'm not the fighting type at all), however I'm suspiscious of some of the posts here. They appear to be a bit too knowledgable... as if they are the instructors...

bump to that.

Millionaire you have been caught. 8 posts all krav maga...HAH!

Millionaire

and heres a 9th post! so put that in yer pipe and smoke it!

secret_squirrel

Actually what said Hostman raised an interesting question for me, how much does Krav Maga rely on physical strength...Im definately not the strongest kid on the block....is it the sort of martial art that should the worst happen...it would buy me enough time to run like hell????

Ronaldo7

but seriously, millionaire, is there any chance of this being moved into a handier location or even more courses starting up do you know?

Millionaire

I think the KM instructor may have some plans for later on in the year for expansion to other areas but I am not sure on what they exactly are. so keep an ear to the ground later on in the year. its well worth doing a course to see what you think.

Ronaldo7

if you have any say in the matter at all, please persuade him to get something setup in southside dublin like blackrock/leapardstown/cabinteely etc....

theres money to be made and a few of my mates who really want to do it too. Go on, its the only solution...:)

Senor_Fudge

i did krav maga while getting raped

geoffer

Boxing is cheap.
Muay Thai is cheap.
Judo is cheap.
Wrestling is cheap.

The first two will teach you how to hit people hard and how to take a hit.

The second two will teach you how to land people on concrete in a manner not condusive to standing up again.

Why do people go after mythical BS and gimmicks when the competition proven, effective stuff can be had for about the cost of a pint?

TheSonOfBattles

Possibly because krav Maga is also proven to work, and doesn't take years to learn, at the cost of a pint each time.

dudara

I was thinking of doing one of the two day courses, as mentioned on .Krav Maga Ireland but even with discount it costs E275. Far too much

geoffer

at the cost of a pint each time

Exactly how much do you pay for a pint?

krav Maga is also proven to work

Exactly what is your definition of proven? Does it involve a cage and six ounce gloves like the four cheaper, better styles I mentioned? If not, why not?

Millionaire

The cage UFC is real tough stuff...but lets me honest the average joe soap is not going to be able to compete or train to be able to fight at that level. never mind the time commitment for conditioning and trying to master all aspects of fightinng...plus the injuries. I would have no interest in it myself...too sore man!

I did the cheap stuff too, the kickboxing etc. excellent for self defense, however spar out full contact, gloves on, sparring, out duck out move the other guy. ok you get in a scrape on the street, and I know from experience, you blast somoe with your fist no gloves on, and whack u connect wrong and nearly break your hand..and its not sparring mode either...the timing , faking etc is all out the window.

i find with the KM it is simple, it definately works, you training in street clothers, basically its a system of dirty tricks! and you learn it quickly. mixes well with my kick boxing skills. remember it is an actual military hand to hand system.


I think here the real question with you guys, is not the effictiveness of KM , but the price in doing the course.

Lemming

Originally posted by jkennedy
i originally did a 12 week induction course which included an extra 4 hour FAST Defence training and two full days training with Jim Wagner

I would consider the instructors to be VERY irresponsible if they're putting it into your head that you can go out after 12 weeks and be virtually untouchable. It's simply not grounded in reality. I'm sure Jim Wagner is very good at what he does, but it took him a lot more than 12 weeks I'm sure to be where he is now. Also, that doesn't mean that in 12 weeks you're going to be anywhere near "good".

Student are taught to be 'prepared for the unprepared'. The first thing that is discussed is that fighting (as in street altercations etc) is bad news and try to avoid it at all costs where possible. Krava Maga is something which should be used only where there is no option of walking away or when you have been involved in an unprovoked attack. Many techniques are even discussed to avoid fights in the first place.

If you need to be told these things, then you (in general) have issues already and perhaps shouldn't be learning a fighting oriented sport/art. That information [the above quote] is something that is not only obvious, but hammered into me whenever I'm training (and all for a lot less than 425 euro for 12 weeks).

One of the tenants of the art I study is adaptability. Never to get into a routine, or else you'll only be able to accept attacks done a certain way from a certain direction, etc. All fairly common sense really.

Fast Defence was all about adrenilin stress mgt, to put it bluntly the guy who runs this along with Dave Shorter (Master Instructor in Krav Maga UK) came over, dressed up in all this gear (along with Patrick), like the stuff they wear in American Football and ran one on one fights with students. When i say fights you would face one of these guys in the middle of the floor, they would verbally assault you first, then try to attack you. OK they would'nt punch or kick but they would try and pin you down, give a few hard slaps, the student can (and must) respond with immediate force as soon as the fights starts and keep going until they are on the ground. Because they are protected we can punch (altough palm shots are preferable) Knee to the groin, throw, kick etc.

Its about the closesthing to a real fight without getting seriously hurt! What the exercise showed me was that once the **** hits the fan and your in the thick of it any ideas of doing flying kicks in the air or Steven Segal stuff goes out the window in 5 seconds- thats the adrenilin flowing through the body

This just doesn't do it for me. Whilst it sounds good in theory, you're being given an unrealistic experience as to what a real street fight might actually be. The real fact of the matter is that you will never know how well you'll handle a street fight until you're in it. They're horrible, nasty, swift and very brutal affairs. Oh, and you're not hitting a padded target - so it may well actually hurt you as well .......

But more importantly, you're in a controlled environment. Which is everything a street-fight isn't. So you're still not being given any sort of realistic idea since subconciously you know there's a safety net.

As mentioned elsewhere by someone else, I consider Krava Maga to be something of a fashionable fad, much like Karate was in the mid 1980s with the 'Karate Kid' films doing the rounds.

Whilst I'm sure it's good, I am rather concerned with the level of confidence and self-belief that is being fed to students. And this, I guess, is the crux of my disagreement with this thread. Not the art, but whats being taught beyond it's martial scope.

geoffer

The cage UFC is real tough stuff...but lets me honest the average joe soap is not going to be able to compete or train to be able to fight at that level.

'tis true. I'm not saying it's necessary to compete, just pointing out that it might be a useful metric by which to compare styles. For the record, Bas Rutten does Krav Maga - definitely wouldn't fight him.

I'll take your point about hand injuries, but I still think boxing would give you a hell of an advantage in a street fight. And the other styles I listed wouldn't be as affected.

'dirty tricks' are all well and good, but if you don't have a decent delivery system I'd imagine it'd be hard to pull them off. there's a few articles on the subjecthere.

Anyway, I've no problem with Krav Maga. I've only rolled with one person who did it and he was fairly good. I'm just surprised at people who moan about cost but don't take the cheaper alternatives.

edit: added 'articles on the subject'

dudara

I train twice a week TKD for E40 a month. Anything else that I might be interested in doing has to be competitive

Millionaire

see I think like many things martial arts are becoming more commercialized, in the USA martial is big business with commercial fees , just like join the fancy gyms.

yeah sure you can get training for cheap...been there, done that myself. however many people may not be interested in training in the sweaty blood stain back street gym. or indeed may be a bit intimidated to even join. now I am not knocking this clubs for a second and have certainly trained in them myself. however I think there are people out there who want to pay for a more quality training environment...regardless of the style of martial art. they will pay bigger rates for nicer places to train , more gear etc.

this has to happen in ireland too.

yeah sure people moan about price and can get boxing cheap or whatever, but maybe they are not willing to join a boxing club.

Puck

I'm sorry but if someone is too intimidated to walk into a boxing club or similar then they've got a problem. Becoming better at fighting/self defence is going to take a lot of hard work. They need to overcome that sort of nervousness and intimidation if they ever wish to stand a chance in a fight anyway.

There's no point going to a lovely equiped gym filled with lovely people who show you nice simple moves that anyone can do in their street clothes (which to me would imply that there's not going to be much sweating and hard work going on) over a period of 12 weeks/2 days (24 hours). They'll still be the same person they were when they started the course. They won't be fitter, stronger, or faster. They won't have repeated their moves over and over so much that it's second nature anyway. I'd put my money on a boxer over them anyday.

I'm not knocking Krav Maga as a fighting system but this whole 24 hours and you'll be safe crap is bull**** in my opinion. It's highly irresponsible and, in my humble opinion, shameful to give people false beliefs when it comes to protecting themselves!

The commercialism of martial arts is ruining it for many people and doing nothing but taking their money and giving them false hopes. There are "McDojos" all over North America and they are to be avoided like the plague. I truly hope it doesn't turn out like that over here too.

TheSonOfBattles

Originally posted by geoffer
Exactly how much do you pay for a pint?

€4 or so usually, and while I do no martial arts at the moment, i'll be starting a jui jitsu class that will cost €5 each time on monday. So that's a tenner a week, over a few years (hopefully)

Originally posted by geoffer
Exactly what is your definition of proven? Does it involve a cage and six ounce gloves like the four cheaper, better styles I mentioned? If not, why not?

Umm, my definition of proven would be that a load of police/military forces world wide are taught Krav Maga as standard during their training. And while this isn't the only thing they're taught, it seems to be effective according to them.