Intoxicating Liquor Bill (Act?) 2003

Kappar

Link: http://www.gov.ie/bills28/bills/2003/2403/b24c03d.pdf

Section 25(4) of this Bill (I think it's an Act now) amends the Equal Status Act 2000 to allows a the holder of a licence to adopt a policy of refusing to supply intoxicating liquor to any person
below a specified age which exceeds 18 years as longas they display a sign and the policy is implemented in good faith.

For God's sake this is such a backwards step this wouldn't be allowed against any other group of people. I can't understand what the raison d'Etre behing this is.

I doubt there is anything that can be done now is there?

SkepticOne

If it's not yet enacted you can write to your TD and/or the minister in question.

DiscoStu

Originally posted by SkepticOne
If it's not yet enacted you can write to your TD and/or the minister in question.

its coming in on monday and there aint a goddamn thing any of us plebs can do about it. one wonder what other peices of nanny state legislation our favourite fascist has up his sleeve.

Paddy20

The owners of a business which is licensed to sell intoxicating liquor. Whether it be a pub, a hotel, an off-license etc,. Has always had the right to refuse to serve or sell any product to who ever they shoose.

In fact, the owner of any business of any type, is under no legal obligation to sell or serve anyone, if they choose not too!. as far as I am aware ?..

P.

Kappar

Originally posted by Paddy20
The owners of a business which is licensed to sell intoxicating liquor. Whether it be a pub, a hotel, an off-license etc,. Has always had the right to refuse to serve or sell any product to who ever they shoose.

In fact, the owner of any business of any type, is under no legal obligation to sell or serve anyone, if they choose not too!. as far as I am aware ?..

P.

Yes, but from 2000 the Equality Act made it so that you can't refuse to serve someone just because of any of any of the Nine? reasons stated but now they will be allowed to refuse on age grounds so so now will see them dusting down there over 21s and over 25 signs in pubs and offos

Paddy20

Kappar,

All I know is that if I ran a retail business, selling products of any type - including intoxicating liquor - or other drinks containig alcohol.

Then I as the rightful owner of that business would:-

1: Only sell to the customers that I wanted to sell my stock too, while obviously not selling alcohol to underaged customers in accordance with the licensing laws.

2: Also, if legislators introduced draconian non-sensical new laws. I personally would still do as I pleased as it is my business, and they could take me to court!, and then I would take the matter before the European court of human rights?..

P.;)

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DiscoStu
its coming in on monday and there aint a goddamn thing any of us plebs can do about it. one wonder what other peices of nanny state legislation our favourite fascist has up his sleeve.

Then it is too late to do anything now.

Did anyone attempt to do anything about it?

Sangre

Originally posted by Paddy20
Kappar,

All I know is that if I ran a retail business, selling products of any type - including intoxicating liquor - or other drinks containig alcohol.

Then I as the rightful owner of that business would:-

1: Only sell to the customers that I wanted to sell my stock too, while obviously not selling alcohol to underaged customers in accordance with the licensing laws.

This is so typical, I'm actually too enrages to form a coherent arguement. Let me get this straight, I can vote, but I can not even purchase some fúcking alochol when I want to? How will this solve anything except force me to ask people over 21 to buy me drink? Will I now have to get a fake ID saying that I am over 21? Is this what the Government want to do? ****ing nanny state bullshít.
I don't see any attempts to refuse to sell drink to people over 65, hmmm, that would go down well, yes indeedy. Or how about refusing to sell to overweight people, black people or homosexuals? Its fúcking discrimination any way you look at it.

Kappar

I can vote, but I can not even purchase some fúcking alochol when I want to?

Yep, alot of places will put up signs saying Over 21s, 23, and some even 25. You can go and get married, Vote, Die for you country but you won't be able to buy drink in a lot of places for some reason. And if this was to happen to any other group we would see cases in the High Court looking to a constitutional way then if that failed Europe but what can you do.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Sangre
I don't see any attempts to refuse to sell drink to people over 65, hmmm, that would go down well, yes indeedy.

Yes indeedy. Why? Because they don't want to lose the votes of the over 65s. Plus, what would be the point?

Anyway, the time to have done something is past.

DiscoStu

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Then it is too late to do anything now.

Did anyone attempt to do anything about it?

it was rushed through the dail and as far as i know spent not even a month in debate/consultation.

some more gems from this travesty

A person who is drunk on leaving licensed premises is presumed,
until the contrary is proved, to have been drunk while on
those premises.

guilty until presumed innocent.

A drunken person shall leave licensed premises on being
requested to do so by the licensee or a member of the Garda
Siochana.

this also applies to a plain clothes garda. does anyone see a problem with this one?

will the incompetance and sheer arrogance of this ff reigme ever stop?

Kappar

Did anyone attempt to do anything about it?

I did but i only found out about this bit of the act very late i didn't think this was in the act i fact i never taught they would be so stupid to do that now they are going to encourage over 18s to drink on the street.

1: Only sell to the customers that I wanted to sell my stock too, while obviously not selling alcohol to underaged customers in accordance with the licensing laws.

Of course but if you refused to serve someone because they are black or gay or under 25 then they should take your license and give it to someone who will

SkepticOne

Originally posted by DiscoStu
it was rushed through the dail and as far as i know spent not even a month in debate/consultation.

Bill was presented two months ago according to the gov website. Still a bit rushed, but nevertheless long enough to write to TDs.

The proposals were discussed on this forum not too long after the bill came out IIRC.

Kappar

The second amendment provides that a licensee may set a minimum age for the sale and consumption of alcohol that is above the statutory minimum of 18 years as long as the policy is publicly displayed and implemented in a non-discriminatory manner. It is possible for an off-licensee, if he or she regards it as socially responsible behaviour, to state that they will not supply spirits in large bottles to persons under a certain specified age as long as it is stated in a notice in the premises and it is applied on a non-discriminatory basis to all persons to whom it should apply. The age limits will not be enforced by the gardaí as the statutory limit will remain at 18 years. However, a person who believes that they have suffered discrimination and has grounds for believing that a licensee does not operate the policy in a fair and non-discriminatory manner may seek redress before the District Court. I can give the House an example. If there was a rule in a premises that spirits would not be served to persons under the age of 24 years and the rule was displayed in the premises and if it transpired that members of the Traveller community were the only people to whom that rule was applied in practice, that would be a discriminatory application.

Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform (Mr. McDowell)

Paddy20

Kappar,

I understand your frustration. When I was Eighteen and had my first public drink in a licensed premises. I enjoyed the company of my friends in a convivial social atmosphere.

However, in the very many years that have past since then. I have witnessed the downside of alcohol abuse by people of all ages. Unfortunately, the majority of the general public are simply not aware that alcohol is a highly addictive drug. Many become addicted and the personal and social consequences can be tragic in the extreme!.

Personally, I am happy to read that the legal minimum age is remaining at 18!. Do you really believe that a lot of licensed premises, off licenses and shops etc, who sell alcohol for a living are going to refuse to sell to someone aged 18?.. remember they are running a business, and as this new age barrier option is up to the indivdual licensed premises owners discretion. I personally do not think that many will bother enforcing it, against sensible 18 year olds?.. Do you ?..

P.

bonkey

Originally posted by Kappar
And if this was to happen to any other group we would see cases in the High Court looking to a constitutional way then if that failed Europe but what can you do.

The only reason you find cases in teh High Court for anything is because someone takes it upon themselves to challenge a law - mostly typically one (or more) of the people being affected by it.

There is nothing to prevent over-18, under-<pick-your-age-cutoff-here> to do likewise....but instead, you're just more likely to see more of what you're doing....loud complaining that someone else should do something, or that if it was someone else being picked on it wouldn't be accepted.

Originally posted by Kappar
guilty until presumed innocent.

No. It isn't. You've been found to be drunk - ergo you are already proven guilty. All they are saying is that once this guilt is proven the law will assume that it was also true in the venue you were just in which served alcohol.

If you'd prefer the alternate, then they could prosecute you for drinking in public, on the grounds that you were not drunk in the pub (your "innocent"), but are drunk after leaving it. Only place to have gotten drunk would be outside...after leaving the pub. That would be illegal.

Originally posted by Sangre
****ing nanny state bullshít.

Well, I hope you - and everyone else complaining loudly - remembers this at the next election and make sure that you vote against the nannies. Hey - you could even write to a non-FF local candidate, and ask them if their party opposes this because if they do, you'll vote for them in the next election, and will petition others to do so too for the same reason.

jc

jc

Sangre

Well considering I only just turned 18, I can only now use my voting power to effect this law. If this those in fact effect my life I will most certainly write to my local TDs as I have done in the past.

SkepticOne

Worth looking through some of the debates on the bill.

Here's a point raised by Ciarán Cuffe of the Green Party that I strongly agree with:

This Bill has laudable aims but proposes questionable means to realise them. By restricting the availability of alcohol while not tackling the cartel that controls the licensed trade, we are failing to tackle the core of the problem of alcohol abuse.

The limited number of licences perpetuates the monopoly in the licensing trade. Small pubs are being bought by developers and destroyed. There is enormous pressure on publicans to double or treble the size of premises. Unless the Minister tackles the super-pubs, not only through liquor licensing legislation but through the planning regulations, he will fail to tackle the widespread abuse of licences that allows the perpetuation of these super-pubs.

The character of familiar areas has been shattered by the destruction of small-scale, family owned premises. The Minister only has to walk through his own neighbourhood to see it has destroyed much of the village atmosphere of Ranelagh. If he walks across the canal down Camden Street, where there were seven or eight pubs, he will see one super-pub shatter the character of that vibrant city neighbourhood every night by releasing hundreds of patrons on to the streets.

Further down, in Temple Bar, the small-scale, family owned pubs such as The Norseman, The Foggy Dew and The Temple Bar have been destroyed through expansion. Ten years ago when I lived in the area, there was a hush when the darts team from Oliver Bond was playing local residents in The Temple Bar. It was a family owned pub that was physically demolished, keeping only the facade, and an airport style drinking lounge was installed that is many times the size of the previous establishment.

Allowing the existence of enormous airport lounges encourages drunkenness to thrive in our society by getting rid of the subtle controls a bar man used to have over the premises. John Kehoe on South Anne Street had barely handed over the keys of his premises before the new owner threw open the upstairs door and doubled the size of the pub overnight. That is a major contributory factor to drunkenness. I am surprised that the Minister, a man who tends to oppose monopolies and cartels, is not tackling this problem in the legislation.

In every other European country one sees the small neighbourhood bars the Minister has mentioned previously. They exist because the owner does not need €1 million to open the establishment. I know people who opened a bar in Paris because they could not afford to open a premises in Dublin as they needed €1 million before they even got off the starting blocks. Unless the cartels and the super-pubs are tackled, the heart of the alcohol problem will not be tackled. Of course, super-pubs are not the source of all our problems with alcohol but they are a major contributor and controls are necessary.

Read the debate here:

http://www.irlgov.ie/debates-03/24Jun/Sect2.htm
(towards the bottom of the page). The debate continues onto the next page.

Kappar

Personally, I am happy to read that the legal minimum age is remaining at 18!. Do you really believe that a lot of licensed premises, off licenses and shops etc, who sell alcohol for a living are going to refuse to sell to someone aged 18?.. remember they are running a business, and as this new age barrier option is up to the indivdual licensed premises owners discretion. I personally do not think that many will bother enforcing it, against sensible 18 year olds?.. Do you ?..

That's what I thaught was the sensible thing to do, sure they're getting the money, but when they were allowed do it before they did it and damn did they do it everywhere had a sign up with a blanket ban on people below 21, 23, 25. Seems crazy don't it?

The only reason you find cases in teh High Court for anything is because someone takes it upon themselves to challenge a law - mostly typically one (or more) of the people being affected by it.

This I know, But not many 18 year olds have €100,000* to take a case. But it seems other groups have interest groups that can act on these kind of things I don't think that we have one. However that is an idea we should get one started. However I don't just sit and complain on boards I write letters, I write and sign Petitions etc.

*No Idea how much it costs to take a case.

Paddy20

Skeptione,

The point raised by Mr Cuffe, is interesting but ignores the basic fact that most pubs in Ireland are private family owned enterprises, and are mainly extremely profitable at that. In my area in Donegal we have 28 Public Houses and 2 Large privately owned Hotels. That means we have a hell of a lot more business people selling alcohol than anything else, and they are not in that type of business just for the good of their own health!. Not one of these licensed premises belongs to a chain or is part of a Cartel or could be described as a Super-pub. Therefore imho* the point made by Mr Cuffe simply will not stand up to scrutiny outside of the Dublin region.

Perhaps if Government Ministers and members of other parties would for once realise that life exists outside the Capital. We might get somewhere in tackling the ramifacations of Alcoholism and alcohol abuse?...instead of leaving this responsibility in the hands of the unpaid [Voluntary sector!] and admirable people such as Sr Stanislaus Kennedy!

P.

Victor

"Happy hours" and similar promotions are banned, but you can have a "happy day-time" :rolleyes: It would seem however that other promotion can go ahead. Is there any other act banning say free beer?

Paddy20

Victor,

Whaaat are you saying "Happy hours" are banned?... No, for heavens sake NO not the Happy hour!, "You can not be serious" J.McEnroe.

P.:eek:

Paddy20

Well, I have being doing my homework, and Victor* is correct!.

The "Happy Hour" is to disappear from Irish pubs for good from Monday. A lead story, and a discussion has been started on the highly respected website:- www.irishhealth.com
on this point and 7 other new requirements.

Makes interesting reading - and the public are being envited to fill in their comments, but you must register with them, which I have done.

P.;) { N.B. Good thing I stopped drinking 12 years ago!.}

Ajnag

Well what can I Say, they banned happy hour, FFS! will there be any libertys left in Ireland by 2006?. Put It this way tho, If I was on the current cabinet, I would be contemptous of a population that was dumb enough vote me back in, despite a campaign that made claims that even kim jong IIl would distance himself from.

Maybe we can invite charles kennedy(the liberian one) or robert mugabe for the 2006 elections.

bloggs

You mean Charles Taylor

This country is getting more like the third world all the time!!! Soon we will be passed by, by South Africa or something. I think the government went to Nigeria last year to get tips on how to be more corrupt.

I think we should close down the Dail and run everything from Brussels

Think about it, Frence hospital waiting lists, German public transport, etc... Ahh heaven

sceptre

Originally posted by Ajnag
Maybe we can invite charles kennedy(the liberian one) or robert mugabe for the 2006 elections.

Like bloggs said, Charles Kennedy is the Liberal drinker. Charles Taylor is the Liberian stinker.

sovtek

Another example of Victoria's corpse still smelling up the place.
Let's tell "the people" what they have to do instead of letting "the people" get the hang of actually being responsible for their own actions.
When you treat people like children, they'll act like children.
Do you suppose Bertie daydreams about bringing feudalism back?

Imposter

Paddy,

How would opening up the licencing laws not be a good thing for small towns? If restrictions were put on the size of the premises that you could open and only allow owner managed pubs it would (at least) hinder a superpub from opening. Allowing anyone to have a licence may harm these family run businesses in all areas but only with better run and more customer orientated family run businesses. In the end the upshot would be, imo, that pubs would have to cater to their customers needs or else risk being closed down by someone else who will. I can't see a down side to this (except for the current crop of publicans).

sovtek

Originally posted by bloggs
You mean Charles Taylor

This country is getting more like the third world all the time!!! Soon we will be passed by, by South Africa or something.

Watch it now...:)
I used to live there and SA actually has alot of modernities that Ireland doesn't, as well a better standard of living, 24 opening hours, cheap drinks, more competant/competitive business, lower VAT, pressurized hot water...
Of course they also have the highest 3 crime cities in the world, and ummm well the Rand has gotten a little stronger .

Think about it, Frence hospital waiting lists, German public transport, etc... Ahh heaven

Get German beer in here at German prices and phoah! you've got it made.

sovtek

5 AN ACT TO AMEND AND EXTEND THE LICENSING ACTS 1833 TO 2003

Kinda says it all right there.

sceptre

Originally posted by sovtek
Kinda says it all right there.

It doesn't really. Unless they draft a consolidation Act, they'll always be amending the original Acts. They rarely bother with consolidation Acts as frankly they're too much trouble. That's why our laws on assault are based on Acts amended since the 1860s, our law on larceny dates from 1916, broadcasting since 1926 and so on. If it doesn't actually require a new law from scratch, why bother.

sovtek

Originally posted by sceptre
If it doesn't actually require a new law from scratch, why bother.

Because the licensing system is so outdated that it practically needs a "new law from scratch".

sceptre

Originally posted by sovtek
Because the licensing system is so outdated that it practically needs a "new law from scratch".

No it doesn't. Take some time and read them. The only substantial changes that ever really need to be made are the opening hours. The outdated licensing system isn't something they're dealing with, hence no new Act. If they ever get around to changing the structure of the licensing system itself they'll require a new Act for that but they've got to make the decision to do that first. When they do, they then draft the necessary legislation. Doing it the other way around wouldn't make any sense.

The fact that something is old doesn't inherently make it no good. That evaluation should be made on the merits of the item, regardless of its age. The licensing system may be outdated but that's not just because it's old.

sovtek

Originally posted by sceptre
No it doesn't.

OK ok... will concede the point...wasn't really meant to be serious anyway.

The only substantial changes that ever really need to be made are the opening hours.

I'd add that they need to be granted to anyone thats eligible to run a business.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
Unless they draft a consolidation Act, they'll always be amending the original Acts.

Restating Acts is now possible, so Acts that have been amended over the years can be published as a single Act.

The Beer Baron

You can't go out and have a quiet pint no more tho- can you?
Super pubs be dammed every publican I know is a greedy bastard and would rather have anorexic wenches slapping up flat pints and watered down vodka @ exhorbitant prices and fill the place up to capacity- that's every pub, every pub I've ever been in for as far back as I can remember.
Nobody creates a nice atmos, nobody takes pride in the pint, nobody cares- I think the Vintners Assoc will most likely kick up a scheizstorm over this, but doesn't it appear like they swept this aside- some politicians were getting pressure over public drunkeness and here's their inspired solution.

As of next year I can't smoke in a pub and now they're telling me I can't even get drunk- what they want me to do- mummify myself in nicorette patches and drink Ballygowan- stay for the atmos- WHAT ATMOS!!!

Perhaps it's time to leave this country while I can still afford it, before they bring in Prohibition, or perhaps I just need to get a few mates together and have a coup. (separate thread for that later perhaps- the boards.ie coup)

Then again does it make a difference to me? I can't really afford to go out no more anyways. Even offie costs too much nowadys thank you very much Charlie McCreevy. Perhaps I'll just brew it myself dammit.

'Sides, pubs and clubs have been doing this for years- they have these "over 21's" "we don't like your shoes" crap that they use to segragate people on sight- which basically sez- I don't like the look a you, so yer not goin' in. Pubs are always doing stuff like that- in the end they're a rich money making enterprise- and you're drunk- they call the cops- they win.

Personally I think they should bring up the drinking age to 21 anyways. I mean- who cares- teenagers are still gonna get pissed, least that way it'll keep them out of pubs and off the streets longer, means less teenyboppers jostling me and spilling my pint, and by the time they can get in- well, they'll be older, with more more drinking experience under their belts. Keep them damn leaving cert gimps off the streets too.

No no, I'm not gonna move to Utah, but I'm all for curbing public drunkedness. I think the government needs to consider something though- why do we do it? Why?
Why are we, and historically have always been- the nation with the biggest reputation for being the biggest lushes on this planet? Why is that?

Personally I think this country suffers from a mass-depression which is why every Saturday night seems to be like this one. (cheeky plug on my behalf- sorry)
The root of the problem is not drink- drink merely makes you drunk- it's anger and frustration and depression that turns you into a raging, regurgitating irresponsible maniac. Perhaps if unemployment and the cost of living wasn't so damn high, if standards of health, education and the general IQ of the government wasn't so damn low...

Oh dammit man! He was right- German beer @ German prices. I'll forego my Guinness for a big bubbly frothy bottle of Franziskaner or a nice Belgian Trappist beer- Europe has the right idea. I like that modestly-priced quality beer, I like that efficient public transport, I like that BMW power...

/me shuts up finally.

echomadman

mneahh,
woooo, more laws for the irish public to casually disregard.


we *don't* have enough police to enforce this, apathy is at an all time high, as is proven by the fact that we pay the exorbitant prices we do for alcohol
this is endemic of the "knuckle under" attitude that we as a nation take to most of the outrageous rip-offs we are subjected to.

we bitch and bitch and bitch, most likely in the pub, while drinking the pints we are bitching about the price of

People say booze is too expensive... yet still go out and drink in these pubs

Vote with your feet, don't go to these places.
I havent found a pub that i've liked in ages anyway. I agree with thebeerbaron on that one.

Ajnag

Could the public be convinced to stay In for a week, so that both the vintners and govt would be pressured by revenue loss, to reduce prices, tax and to revoke the new act.Failiure to address the public could lead on to another "strike" til they do treat us properly.Excesive drinking in Ireland is caused by the consumer seeking value, Ie Im paying so much, I have to get drunk kinda attitude. sorry bout the kennedy typo, its hard to imagine a soft spoken ginger scotsman causing the liberia crisis.

p.pete

Originally posted by Ajnag
Could the public be convinced to stay In for a week, so that both the vintners and govt would be pressured by revenue loss, to reduce prices, tax and to revoke the new act.Failiure to address the public could lead on to another "strike" til they do treat us properly.

Could be quite effective but very difficult to get actions like that to gain support. In the absence of much else to do in this country I can't see the whole country abstaining completly from alcohol for a week. Buying drink in off-licences / supermarkets as an alternative for the week would not be hurting the government as everything there is taxed anyway.

On a personal level I would try to support such action - I'm sure it would do my health / pocket good and might not achieve anything on the first attempt but could eventually get somewhere.

Very idealistic though, unfortunately.

rubadub

AFAIK it was always illegal to be drunk in a public place, a public house is a public place. there are a few recent updates on laws which were already there but as usual never enforced.
i was hoping there would be a definition of drunkeness similar to drink driving i.e. a legal blood alcohol limit. if the garda doesnt like the look of somebody or has a grudge against a nieghbour they can just call them drunk and arrest them with no scientific evidence at all.
reducing the thursday opening hours.. oh dear... seems they really dont have a clue, do these guys live in world of their own with bizarre logic? everybody knew longer opening hours wouldnt lead to less street drunkeness but would cause even more! only 24 hour opening will reduce it, i wont bother explaining why, ask a dog on the street and they will tell you. i really thought we would follow england on the 24hr thing. longer opening hours misses the whole point.
heres the bit on happy hours

20.—(1) A licensee shall not supply intoxicating liquor on the licensed premises at a reduced price during a limited period on any day.
(2) In subsection (1), ‘‘reduced price’’ means a price less than that regularly being charged for the intoxicating liquor during an earlier period after 10.30 a.m. (12.30 p.m. on a Sunday) on the day
concerned.
(3) A person who contravenes subsection (1) is guilty of an offence under this section and liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding—
(a) for a first offence, \1,500, or
(b) for a second or any subsequent offence, \2,000.

so can they still give free drink "on the house"? if so they could give buy one get one free offers. what about pubs who only open later on, their "regular" price could be happy hour price from 7 till 9 and then charge more after. there is also nothing to stop them having bottles of cheap beer/spirits which conveniently only arrived on the premises at 7 and was all sold by 9 (tell your publican!).

never thought i would say it but i would hate to be 18 again!! if i was a publican i would set an age limit of 25 just to save me the risk of fines. why didnt they rush the smoking ban through at the same speed? maybe they wanted to kill a few 1000 more people passively...