Technology question

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 5:14pm #1

Who can answer this then, at the DSL exchange...does each ISP get their own DSL lines?
Meaning, do they mix customers from Eircom, Esat, Netsource and UTV to the same DSL lines?

What about Esat customers who have a 5GB cap and Netsource customers who have no download cap, are they on the same line?

Surely that is unfair to the Esat customer...as the Netsource guy can hog the DSL line and download 24/7 without a worry while the Esat customer suffers as a result.

Comments?

eth0_ · 31-07-2003 5:58pm

The contention is at the exchange level ....so you got 48 dsl users, be they UTV, IOL or eircom RADSL sharing one line... once your connection is piped
to your provider it uses their external bandwidth and this is were you'd see a service being hammered by warez monkies as the more users an ISP gets onboard with dsl, they'd need to start looking at QOS measures like capping, or upgrading 'abusers' to an uncapped service

Alas this is how DSL works everywhere in the world, it's nothing specific to Esat.

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 6:07pm

Originally posted by eth0_

That's ****ed up...why should i have to put up with some clown from Netsource screwing up my ****?
I mean, dosen't it make more sense to have DSL lines assigned to each ISP?

At least that way Esat guys will all be on a download cap and they will watch how they use the service more.

Netsource monkies won't give a rats ass and will be screwing up transfer speeds for all 47 others, man.....i'm going on a business package.

eth0_ · 31-07-2003 6:11pm

Ok, you obviously aren't taking in what I said. Remember, if you move to business dsl you'll have to wait another 20 days for it to be installed AND pay the install fee again, not very cost effective!

MrPinK · 31-07-2003 7:19pm

And you may want to wait and see if there are actually any warez monekys on your exchange before cursing them for something they haven't yet done and switching service.

BKtje · 31-07-2003 7:37pm

O i wasnt aware they mixed all the different people together.
This would make sense in cost cutting.

Thanks for info

crowbar · 31-07-2003 8:56pm

i thought esat's product used local loop unbundling and hooked directly into your line ... so everybody still talks to €ircon's dslam?

eth0_ · 31-07-2003 9:12pm

Originally posted by crowbar
i thought esat's product used local loop unbundling and hooked directly into your line ... so everybody still talks to €ircon's dslam?

No, esat's IOL Broadband product utilises Eircom's bitstream RADSL product. They did have a residential service that circumvented eircom completely, but it's not on sale anymore

crowbar · 31-07-2003 9:22pm

right ... thanks eth0_. but then what does the contention ratio apply to?

The contention is at the exchange level ....so you got 48 dsl users, be they UTV, IOL or eircom RADSL sharing one line...

is it then, at the same exchange, (48 eircom users contending each 512k of bandwidth on the backhaul to eircom's interweb backbone) and (48 iol users contending each 512kbps of bandwidth on their separate backhaul to esat's interweb backbone)? or have i missed the point too!

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 9:32pm

Originally posted by MrPinK
And you may want to wait and see if there are actually any warez monekys on your exchange before cursing them for something they haven't yet done and switching service.

Eircom won't give out any information as to who is on your DSL line, and it's not from a lack of trying i can assure you.

Netsource by nature will attract the download gimps, us nice people who just want a fast surfing experince suffer as a result.

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 9:36pm

Originally posted by crowbar
is it then, at the same exchange, (48 eircom users contending each 512k of bandwidth on the backhaul to eircom's interweb backbone) and (48 iol users contending each 512kbps of bandwidth on their separate backhaul to esat's interweb backbone)? or have i missed the point too! [/B]

Apparently all BB customers get nailed to the same line regardless of which ISP you are signed up to. Seems to me Eircom will keeping putting customers onto one DSL line until the contention ratio is full 48.1

Then another line will start the same process, so an Esat customer in Dublin could be sharing a DSL line with say 27 Netsource customers.

You see the unfairness?

MrPinK · 31-07-2003 9:41pm

Yeah, the cheap warez monkies will be on netsource alright, but that's not to say that your connection will suffer. All I'm saying is wait and see if a problem does develop before paying extra for a different service

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 9:50pm

Originally posted by MrPinK
Yeah, the cheap warez monkies will be on netsource alright, but that's not to say that your connection will suffer. All I'm saying is wait and see if a problem does develop before paying extra for a different service

We should get a petition going to force ISP's to have only customers on a DSL line that is for that specific ISP.

And also to force them to honour the letter of the contract.

BigEejit · 31-07-2003 9:56pm

Alright ... I'll bite....

Netsource customers are all warez monkeys? .. or are they people who know that you could go over a 5 Gig cap on dialup, and dont trust Eircom/IOLBB/UTV not to charge if you do go over ...how much is the lowest any of them would charge you per Gig over the limit?

It could be people who just want the same sized bill every month, no matter what they are doing ..It could be people who want a fixed IP address, people who want their own webserver etc...

And finally, EVERYONE downloads like a warez monkey when they first get broadband ....give it a few weeks for the fun to go out of "downloading the internet"

PS .. I've only downloaded 2.5Gigs this week, hardly a warez monkey

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 10:00pm

Originally posted by BigEejit
Eh ... Netsource customers are all warez monkeys? .. or are they people who know that you could go over a 5 Gig cap on dialup, and dont trust Eircom/IOLBB/UTV not to charge if you do go over ...how much is the lowest any of them would charge you per Gig over the limit?

It could be people who just want the same sized bill every month, no matter what they are doing ..It could be people who want a fixed IP address, people who want their own webserver etc...

And finally, EVERYONE downloads like a warez monkey when they first get broadband ....give it a few weeks for the fun to go out of "downloading the internet"

PS .. I've only downloaded 2.5Gigs this week, hardly a warez monkey

Maybe i'm jealous? :eek:
No...i just want a fair service for everyone, capped or uncapped...and right now it's not.

Each ISP should have their own customers on a DSL line, to make it fair for everyone and so each customer can expect a reasonable level of service.

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 10:02pm

Originally posted by BigEejit
Alright ... I'll bite....

PS .. I've only downloaded 2.5Gigs this week, hardly a warez monkey

That's insane!!!!...you crazy ass downloading freak you, i've about 800 megs in 9 days.

MrPinK · 31-07-2003 10:06pm

Originally posted by Richard Dower
That's insane!!!!...you crazy ass downloading freak you, i've about 800 megs in 9 days.

That's cause your connection was so slow most of the tiime

800 megs is not that much. It's only about 4 hours worth of downloading on broadband.

eth0_ · 31-07-2003 10:11pm

Originally posted by Richard Dower

Each ISP should have their own customers on a DSL line, to make it fair for everyone and so each customer can expect a reasonable level of service.

Bitstream was never intended to work like that and tbh it never will. Putting each ISP on its 'own line' would make such a service too expensive, and RADSL by its nature is a cheap service.
If we all lived in Richard land then everyone would have superfast dsl with no contention, but we don't. Obviously the providers are going to 'cripple' radsl in some way so businesses and heavy users don't use the service over their (more expensive) business offerings, it's how business works.

From reading your posts, you're not even experiencing contention issues, so why not let the issue lie until you actually have something to complain to esat about?

BigEejit · 31-07-2003 10:12pm

Originally posted by Richard Dower
Maybe i'm jealous? :eek:
No...i just want a fair service for everyone, capped or uncapped...and right now it's not.

Each ISP should have their own customers on a DSL line, to make it fair for everyone and so each customer can expect a reasonable level of service.

Just for the record, I agree that each Broadband ISP should have its own feed back to its own network from each dslam and it should not be sharing a pipe, but thats the ISP's not fighting hard enough, or else its them being forced to do it because of €ircons pricing structure....

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 10:20pm

Originally posted by eth0_

From reading your posts, you're not even experiencing contention issues, so why not let the issue lie until you actually have something to complain to esat about? [/B]

Plently to take issue with Esat about, just read what everyone has been saying......

Richard Dower · 31-07-2003 10:23pm

Originally posted by BigEejit
Just for the record, I agree that each Broadband ISP should have its own feed back to its own network from each dslam and it should not be sharing a pipe, but thats the ISP's not fighting hard enough, or else its them being forced to do it because of €ircons pricing structure....

Well we as a customer base can fight that, the notion of men in suits and big cars is not at all that scary. I belive Irish consumers should make their voices heard.

Remember...we pay for these same people to go around in nice suits and big cars, thus all of us can exact change.

bizmark · 31-07-2003 10:26pm

To be honest richard you have gone through notting compeared to me on esat

But ya know what a simple few emails to esat "top brass" and all is well.................(i hope the same goes for the bill)

so for the love of god lay of esat their not the devil

UbahOne · 31-07-2003 11:31pm

There not Eircom...thats for sure...a 4gb cap for a month and more expensive? Thats insane...

Mutant_Fruit · 01-08-2003 12:13am

i have to admit i AM a warez monkey, i've probably downloaded over 30gigs since i got BB less than a month ago. That was in windows updates, loads of music videos, some radiohead tv interviews etc game updates (using Steam i got several gigs of game updates for half-life and its' mods... yes gigs) erm.... downloaded new version of mozilla every few days, 3dmark 2003 3 times as it was corrupted... and a never winter nights ISO as my install disc 1 got scratched and i couldn't install it, and the b*stards wouldn't give me a replacement. had to download that twice due to crappy kazzaa. what i downloaded first is better not discussed :-p

but after this month, i'd say i'll be lucky to break past 3-4 gigs from now on.

EDIT: added a nice picture of me :-p

UbahOne · 01-08-2003 12:21am

I downloaded 4.50gb in the last week. that was jus cos its reset tonight. I dont know what else to download and online gaming doesnt eat it up at all...im happy.

eth0_ · 01-08-2003 12:31am

Originally posted by Richard Dower
Plently to take issue with Esat about, just read what everyone has been saying......

No...nothing to take issue with Esat about...the only things being 'said' are being said by you...and you've no reason to be disgruntled with the service now it's running properly...give us some CONCRETE evidence of why you still think IOLBB is rubbish. FACTS, not what you *think* is going to happen in the future, what bad QOS are you experiencing right now?

If you can't produce any evidence, then please, for the love of God, hush.

bizmark · 01-08-2003 12:34am

aye ethos

Supercell · 01-08-2003 1:15am

Originally posted by eth0_
No, esat's IOL Broadband product utilises Eircom's bitstream RADSL product. They did have a residential service that circumvented eircom completely, but it's not on sale anymore

Wasn't esat given a bunch of €€€ to convert some exchanges to their own exclusive kit? Thus eircom contention shouldn't kick in on these exchanges for their users?

Eg eircom/utv/netsource user has contention for example on terenure exchange..but esat user doesnt because he/she is connecting to esats exclusive kit?

I dont pretend to understand the irtricacies of inet providing, maybe someone can correct/explain this assumtion ?

Chowley · 01-08-2003 6:13am

That's ****ed up...why should i have to put up with some clown from Netsource screwing up my ****?

Netsource by nature will attract the download gimps, us nice people who just want a fast surfing experince suffer as a result.

Why do you feel the need to insult people who pay for what they want OR need.If they did all this downloading on Esat Id say they're idiots but they paid for netsource and they are doing what they have every right to do.
I myself will be getting Netsource in September.Because I want to be able to play CS download mods and skinpacks, sound packs and map packs.When Opera 8 arrives Ill get that too.Also I'll be able to DL a few Linux distro's and update windows.Of course I can download game and movie trailers.I can DL what I want, when I want.That is what I'll be paying for, and of course not worrying about a huge bill.:ninja:

Can you say that?
If you feel so strongly about the current BB situations get Wireless if available or if all you want is quicker browsing speeds bugger off to ISDN and stop insulting people for doing things they are entitled to do.

bizmark · 01-08-2003 6:22am

stop insulting people for doing things they are entitled to do.

i totaly agree i got esat because it was cheap and i dont d/l like a mad man ......

if you want to d/l all the porn/games/movies etc on the webby get netsources your paying 20 euro more for it and can do what you want

eth0_ · 01-08-2003 10:21am

Originally posted by Longfield
Wasn't esat given a bunch of €€€ to convert some exchanges to their own exclusive kit? Thus eircom contention shouldn't kick in on these exchanges for their users?

Eg eircom/utv/netsource user has contention for example on terenure exchange..but esat user doesnt because he/she is connecting to esats exclusive kit?

Yes esat were given money by the government, but obviously not enough as only a handful of exchanges had the kit installed for residential broadband...however a large proportion are enabled for business DSl...the two exist on separate DSLAMS.

IOL BB runs off Eircom's bitstream wholesale RADSL product, so their customers are contended along with utv , netsource etc etc

UbahOne · 01-08-2003 10:59am

Ethos do you work for Esat?

BKtje · 01-08-2003 11:32am

800 megs is not that much. It's only about 4 hours worth of downloading on broadband.

I do more than that (almost anyway) on my ISDN ffs, or used to till i starting working. That was just gaming and patches and stuff with some music / tv rips thrown in the odd time.

Just read the IOFFL forums and you'll know the same information that etho_ knows.

The reason they run on different DSLAMS (before someone asks) is that the business/residential products have(had) different backhaul bandwidth amounts to the ISP. Also different contention tho im not sure if thats an issue.

eth0_ · 01-08-2003 1:35pm

Originally posted by UbahOne
Ethos do you work for Esat?

Being informed about esat products does not mean I work for them.

query · 01-08-2003 1:37pm

FFS, Esat have two products

Business through Local Loop Unbundling = own DSLAMs, own set contention, own backhaul.

Residential, resale of eircom's RADSL, eircom's contenton set etc.

Netsource resell all of eircom's products not just RADSL.

Have a look at the documents on eircom's wholsale web to see howthe service works!

UbahOne · 01-08-2003 1:40pm

Being informed about esat products does not mean I work for them.

you dont have to give a smart ass reply. it was only a question...

eth0_ · 01-08-2003 1:59pm

Originally posted by UbahOne
you dont have to give a smart ass reply. it was only a question...

I wasn't trying to give a smartass answer, sorry. But you or Richard have asked me this before on another thread and I told you no...besides, it's OT

theciscokid · 01-08-2003 2:18pm

eth0_ is a mod!

when did this happen?

Jorinn · 01-08-2003 2:51pm

Originally posted by Richard Dower
Apparently all BB customers get nailed to the same line regardless of which ISP you are signed up to. Seems to me Eircom will keeping putting customers onto one DSL line until the contention ratio is full 48.1

Then another line will start the same process, so an Esat customer in Dublin could be sharing a DSL line with say 27 Netsource customers.

You see the unfairness?

That's aterrible generalisation.

You need to a: calm down and b: think before you post.

Firstly you're getting what you pay for, the product is 512down but not guarenteed and has a contention ratio of 48:1, essentially you're been told you may only end up with 1.3k/sec but that's perfectly ok, as that's the product you subscribed to. It's just like a 56k line, ideally you'll get 56k on dialup but inreality we know that doesn't happen, and even with a 56k modemyou' not even guarenteed 9600 baud, so if you get a **** tranfer rate tough as well.

Secondly it is stupid to assume that all Netsource customers will eat up your bandwidth. Not all netsource cutomers are warez monkies. Some are business using their line monday - friday 9 to 5, they're unlikely to have any impact on you. Secondly, a lot of people won't be downloading large files all the time. I know I don't, that would also require substantial effort on their part. maybe 5 or 6 hours of picking files to download at max speed for a week. That doesn't happen much, if it does then it's stupid, their not going to use all those things they download much.

There are numerous other reasons why people might use netsource, among mine were
a: I didn't have to use eircom (I only pay line rental to them)
b: If I wanted tech support I would only pay a local call with netsource (I subsequently was on to netsource many times due to eircom fking my line up, this alone would of cost me in the region of €120 or possibly a lot more with eircom.)
c: static ip
d: if I do happen to download a lot in one month for whatever reason i won't have to worry about extra charges (I do some work from home so it can involve large files.), Having said that my bandwidth monitor for the week says only 80 megs or so.
e: I had bad experiences with esat before (SNL debacle)
f: UTV were dragging their feet and I had cancelled my dialup account with them.
g: convenience - their office is close by my office in town

Those are just some of my reasons, don't be a gimp and slander all netsource users. If you have a problem change your provider, get wireless BB or go back to dial up, it's your choice, don't moan that you made it.

eth0_ · 01-08-2003 3:03pm

Originally posted by theciscokid
eth0_ is a mod!

when did this happen?

Last week, keep up!

Pity i'm not mod of this forum or ye'd all have slapped wrists!

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 7:01pm

Originally posted by eth0_
No...nothing to take issue with Esat about...the only things being 'said' are being said by you...and you've no reason to be disgruntled with the service now it's running properly...give us some CONCRETE evidence of why you still think IOLBB is rubbish. FACTS, not what you *think* is going to happen in the future, what bad QOS are you experiencing right now?

If you can't produce any evidence, then please, for the love of God, hush.

Again let me refer you to the numerous comments and complaints made by posters to these forums, there are outstanding issues with communication, customer billing, contract and service problems.

Unfairness in how the DSL service actually operates, contention issues, backhaul issues, mixed ISP customers per DSL line issues etc.

What about Esat changing the rules about the 5GB download cap?, billing problems...the fact you never get a straight answer from one person to another, training, what more needs to be said.

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 7:05pm

Originally posted by Chowley
Why do you feel the need to insult people who pay for what they want OR need.If they did all this downloading on Esat Id say they're idiots but they paid for netsource and they are doing what they have every right to do.

Can you say that?
If you feel so strongly about the current BB situations get Wireless if available or if all you want is quicker browsing speeds bugger off to ISDN and stop insulting people for doing things they are entitled to do.

I am not insulting Netsource customers per se, but how customers from varioius ISP's are mixed to the same DSL line. It's not fair...Netsource customers should be on Netsource DSL lines as that is what they paid for.

I didn't pay to share by bandwidtch with a Netsource customer who has no cap and can potentially slow my surfing experince down.

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 7:06pm

Originally posted by UbahOne
Ethos do you work for Esat?

lol..i asked this myself. I see spies among us!!

:eek:

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 7:11pm

Originally posted by eth0_
Last week, keep up!
Pity i'm not mod of this forum or ye'd all have slapped wrists!

:mad:

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 7:21pm

Firstly you're getting what you pay for, the product is 512down but not guarenteed and has a contention ratio of 48:1, essentially you're been told you may only end up with 1.3k/sec but that's perfectly ok, as that's the product you subscribed to. It's just like a 56k line, ideally you'll get 56k on dialup but inreality we know that doesn't happen, and even with a 56k modemyou' not even guarenteed 9600 baud, so if you get a **** tranfer rate tough as well.

***********
Where does it say on the Esat website or in the contract i would only get a 1.3K download speed?

This is my problem....Esat never tells you any of this stuff, if you didn't have internet access and signed up here, how would you have obtained this information?

I heard people say, you should have researched...bollocks, Esat is supposed to provide full and detailed disclosure on the products they sell.

It's not a customers job to learn the technical apects of their products, they should volunteer this info without prompting + have a detailed description on their websites.

Not everyone can be savvy about DSL, nor should they be.

**************

Secondly it is stupid to assume that all Netsource customers will eat up your bandwidth. Not all netsource cutomers are warez monkies. Some are business using their line monday - friday 9 to 5, they're unlikely to have any impact on you. Secondly, a lot of people won't be downloading large files all the time. I know I don't, that would also require substantial effort on their part. maybe 5 or 6 hours of picking files to download at max speed for a week. That doesn't happen much, if it does then it's stupid, their not going to use all those things they download much.

Those are just some of my reasons, don't be a gimp and slander all netsource users. If you have a problem change your provider, get wireless BB or go back to dial up, it's your choice, don't moan that you made it.

*********************

I'm moaning that Esat never tell any customers this stuff nor discuss it with them, i am moaning that how the DSL service is setup in Ireland is inherintly unfair to some customers.

We should all be given a reasonable service, be they Esat or Netsource...but one should not have an advantage over the other.

If you pay more then you are entitled to a better service, such as the business package, same as if you have no download cap and another customer does...they should be separated to make it fair.

And i have not just moaned on here, i've written numerous emails to Esat and calls, i have also sent emails to certain media organisations.

Chowley · 01-08-2003 8:43pm

I am not insulting Netsource customers per se, but how customers from varioius ISP's are mixed to the same DSL line. It's not fair...

You quite clearly insulted netsource customers.

But I do definately agree with the second point, people shouldnt be affected by people on other services, but theres nothing you can do except give up on DSL.

Richard Dower · 01-08-2003 9:17pm

Originally posted by Chowley
You quite clearly insulted netsource customers.

But I do definately agree with the second point, people shouldnt be affected by people on other services, but theres nothing you can do except give up on DSL.

Yes you can...we can all fight to exact change.

ozmo · 01-08-2003 9:53pm

Originally posted by eth0_
The contention is at the exchange level ....so you got 48 dsl users, be they UTV, IOL or eircom RADSL sharing one line...

I've asked UTV Clicksilver technical support, Eircom I-Stream Technical Support and Netsource Technical support.
And they were all very definite that this was _not_ the case. That every isp rents their bandwidth (say 2mbit) off eircom and divies it up as they see fit. All stated to do otherwise would be unfair as they all offer different/no caps.

I'm not saying they are right (it does sound like something eircom would do) - but can you tell us where you got the information above from. It seems a quite rampant tale on boards. It would be nice to get a definitive answer - might help some people to choose one dsl isp over another.

ta. ozmo.

Mutant_Fruit · 01-08-2003 11:51pm

can anyone on a newsource verify if this is still true:
"Base Product 512/128 RADSL 48:1 Contention (only 256/128 guaranteed)"

Are you guaranteed that 256 min, and more imporatantly, are you getting it?

jesus_thats_gre · 02-08-2003 11:11am

I have netsource's product and all I can say is that its an excellent service. There is 5 computers connected to the line and up until recently, we were downloading constantly at rate of 50k at least...

As for Richard, just read your posts briefly, have you actually got BB yet? It would be plain thick to complain about a service that you do not have or have not had experience using it.

Also, who care is ethO works for Esat. Thats the great thing about boards, we get advise from people who are in the know, as oppossed to talking about stuff they do not know about, do not own nor have any experience using the service.

Stormfox1020 · 02-08-2003 1:21pm

Richard if u feel so strongly about broadband move to a different country. Ireland is new in this game, and is bound to have problems, you just need to give them time to iron things out.