Guardai Speed Trap farce's

Villain

I reported in another thread that I having been driving a 100 mile round trip twice weekly for the 5 weeks and had never seen a speed trap once.

Yesterday evening I saw the first speed trap and it was located on the WIDEST STRAIGHTEST AND BEST STRECTH of the 50 mile trip. I arrived home and started reading the papers, on the front page of THE STAR there was a story about the young couple and child who were killed on notorious bad stretch of road. I then read the local paper which reported a simalar story about a blackpoint where accidents were occuring regulary.

My question is are the Guardai more interested in making money than saving lives. I mean that checkpoint I passed yesterday will no doubtably have caught a lot of people breaking the 60 mph speed limit. If that officer relocated to a danger spot he may have caught very few people or no-one but at least he would have been there letting people know they will be caught if they speed in a KNOWN DANGEROUS strecth of road, he may even have saved a life!!

It's time the guardai got serious and started policing the dangerous roads and also started policing them at a time when deaths occur.

I have never seen a checkpoint after 11 at night!! disgraceful.

spongebob

I only ever see them speed trapping along dual carriageways.

I never see them running a trap where slowing the traffic down could make the road safer. The Garda Traffic Corps are the laziest and most bone idle bunch of of sleeveens in the country although some of the motorbike ones are a bit more enthusiastic and proactive.

mike65

Weird! I was thinking exactly the same thought while on the roads today! In a typical week I drive about 800 miles, this week I saw one, just one Garda speed trap which was at the end of the dual carridgway into Cork just by the Silverspring flyover. That would be about typical too, assuming good weather that is. When its dark and wet and thoroughly dangerous to speed they are nowhere to be seen.

Mike.

BKtje

The thing is there has to be plenty of warning for people (ie signs and stuff) and they have to be easily visible. The law is bollox imo, there shouldnt be any warning that you could be fined or that up ahead somewhere theres's a cop with a speed gun. This gives u plenty of time to slow down and then speed up again after. Same with speed cameras.
It gives the offenders too much time to slow down and lets them believe they can beat the system (which face it, they can unless your fairly stupid/unobservant.)

Isnt there a rumour tho that we are getting our own 'highway patrol'' to Police the roads. Perhaps they'd do a better job and take some strain offa the guards?

Sparks

Isnt there a rumour tho that we are getting our own 'highway patrol'' to Police the roads. Perhaps they'd do a better job and take some strain offa the guards?

TomF

I drive in Cork and daily watch cars and trucks go right through red lights. The speed limit is almost never observed. Lower Glanmire Road is a case in point where you nearly get blasted off the road if you keep to the speed limit. I telephoned the Mayfield station once to ask what was the speed limit by Silver Springs Hotel, and the guard who answered said 40. I said I thought so, too, but traffic must be going 60 by that time. His response, well you wouldn't want to obstruct traffic.

Lennoxschips

Of course, if the roads were built properly with no black spots....

MadsL

Saw a speed camera getting put up in Donneybrook today.

Villain

Originally posted by Lennoxschips
Of course, if the roads were built properly with no black spots....

Ya and if my Aunty had balls she'd be my uncle.

MDR

drive from Dublin to Belfast an back at least once a week,
and motorcycle garda with a speed camera is becoming a very regular sight.

ednwireland

guys- you forget its just a revenue generation excercise (just like carbon taxes) if it wasn't theyd be out in remote areas and in accident blackspots. the only places i ever see speed cameras is the longest newest straightest peices of road round donegal town i guess they are just lazy as well.

MDR

As I have said before, not sure if its in this thread, and again I will point out that I don't entirely understand the ins and outs of this myself, but if a person doesn't pass a speed camera sign before they get snagged by a speed camera, its entrapment and therefore you can have the offense over turned in court.

Therefore the Garda has to be certain you passed a speed camera sign before he picks you off with the speed gun, otherwise you can get off, this is obviousily very easy to achieve on motorway's and long straight pieces of national routes, but quite tough to achieve elsewhere, especially in rural areas.

Dampsquid

My girlfriends sister was over hear last week, and i was showing her around ireland. Over the week I had driven about 1400 miles and i had not seen a Garda with a speed gun until the very last day. when I was leaving dublin on the N7. Disgracefull.

Also, what the story about the signs with the speed limit, then with a graphic of a camera underneath. What do they mean? Because I have never seen a speed camera anywhere near one of them

MDR

They mean this is the speed limit, there maybe speed cameras operating in the area ....

Imposter

Originally posted by MDR
As I have said before, not sure if its in this thread, and again I will point out that I don't entirely understand the ins and outs of this myself, but if a person doesn't pass a speed camera sign before they get snagged by a speed camera, its entrapment and therefore you can have the offense over turned in court.

Therefore the Garda has to be certain you passed a speed camera sign before he picks you off with the speed gun, otherwise you can get off, this is obviousily very easy to achieve on motorway's and long straight pieces of national routes, but quite tough to achieve elsewhere, especially in rural areas.

Then how do the vans they had operating on the motorways work? Surely every ticket they issue would be overturned.

MDR

as I said I don't understand the ins and outs of the whole situation, but if it was on a motorway i should imagine there where plenty of speed cameras signs around ....

kdevitt

The law is bollox imo, there shouldnt be any warning that you could be fined or that up ahead somewhere theres's a cop with a speed gun. This gives u plenty of time to slow down and then speed up again after. Same with speed cameras.

The purpose of speed checks should be to get people to slow down at dangerous stretches of road - the cameras should be at known danger spots and painted flourescent yellow - the more warning the better, this would save a hell of a lot more lives that the current scenario where the gardai pick off drivers on our motorways and dual carriage ways.

MDR

The purpose of speed checks should be to get people to slow down at dangerous stretches of road

Granted you want people to slow down on particularily dangerous stretches of road, but that is only tackling half the problem. Whereas I do accept that having very obvious speed cameras on the dangerous bits will make people slow down, it doesn't nothing to re-edumicate the driver in the long term, as soon as they pass the camera they speed up again.

What we need in ireland is a little more drackonian, you need to have speed camera's popping up all the time in completely random places, and then moving somewhere else, keep the driver off guard ...

growler

i know a few years back that individual garda stations had quotas for speeding, tax, parking fines etc. that they had to meet.

so if they were in need of 50 speeding tickets the easiest way was to head for the nearest 5 mile straight stretch of empty road with a 40 limit and wait for the first 50 to wander past.

I'm not sure if that is still the case , but it's obvious the motivation isn't "life saving" per se , it's statistics and quota driven.

Tom F , i know the lower glanmire road very well , and when you come off or on to the dual carriageway it's a 40mph zone, but it shouldn't be as you can quite safely do 60, 70 or 80 mph down that stretch if there are no idiots travelling at 30 in the outside lane, and the cops are always there.

Also you don't see speed traps at night usually as it's overtime, afaik.

MDR

Also you don't see speed traps at night usually as it's overtime, afaik.

Garda are shift workers, it would only be overtime if there wasn't enough Garda on a specific shift to do the job, so they would have to bring Garda in on overtime off another shift ....

BKtje

I must say i agree with MDR's last post completely.

Maybe have static Yellow/Flourescent camera's at Black Spots then a number of mobile cameras dotted around the place as well that keep changing. That way you can have the signs but drivers wont know where exactly along the route the camera will pop up. (should be fariyl easy to do, have the wiring in place at certain spots then just get someone to change the position of the camera periodically) Perhaps even get those 'fake' cameras going as well for so that each wiring pole has a fake camera which can be switched with a real camera from somewhere else on that stretch of road.

Probably an easier way than the above but im just brainstorming atm

Monasette

There are plenty of speed traps around Galway, and God knows there are no straight roads around there. Though you will never see a speed trap on a wet day (and we have plenty of those in the west)

/John

daveg

I spent 3 months in Boston a few years ago. Every mile or so along the road you will clearly see a squad car pulled in checking for speed. Now I know we do not have the Garda man power to adopt the same policy but in my opinion it's all about visability. This is why it does not matter if there are signs up saying speed trap ahead. If we thought there was a good chance of getting caught we would all slow down.

When the points system was introduced 99% of people slowed down. Why? because we were afraid of getting points on our licence and there was a higher number of speed checks on the road. I think everyone will agree that this has nearly deminished.

I have not seen a speedtrap on the roads for at least 4 months. IMHO I think the gardas and the goverment are a fúcking joke when it comes to road deaths. We need to see more garda's carrying out speed checks on our roads so that we might feel there is a chance of getting caught. It seems so simple to me. It must be very complicated for our goverment.

vasch_ro

I regularly see Speed checks at UCD and on the Southern Cross in Bray and it has reformed my behaviour. In relation to the vans at the side of the roads ( known as Gatso's) I believe a change in the road traffic act was made to faciliate this system.

Lets remember there is no point giving out about the ordinary Garda on the street trying to do his/her job if they are in a particular location it is because their superiors have decided this is where they want their manpower and resources located. Gardai are the bottom of the rank structure they do what they are ordered to do to comply with the traffic mangement plan for their area.

Lets remember that if people actually obeyed the laws and thought of the common good life would be an awful lot easier
the simple fact of the matter is that Irish people do not care that 400 plus people die every year on their roads , if they did surely they would slow down, stop at red lights, not park in dangerous places with hazard lights on ????

sovtek

Originally posted by daveg
I spent 3 months in Boston a few years ago. Every mile or so along the road you will clearly see a squad car pulled in checking for speed. Now I know we do not have the Garda man power to adopt the same policy but in my opinion it's all about visability. This is why it does not matter if there are signs up saying speed trap ahead. If we thought there was a good chance of getting caught we would all slow down.

And that means that you will have too many cops with nothing to do...so no prizes for guessing what they will do then
Sorry I'm from Texas and I know how this story ends.
"That guy has a tail light brighter than the other...better pull um over"
It seems to me that Germany doesn't have the problem that Ireland does with traffic deaths yet they have no speed limits on the autobahn.
Not sure why.

Victor

Originally posted by sovtek
they have no speed limits on the autobahn.

This is only on certain sections, you will invariably find their urban / suburban Autobahns with speed limits.

Originally posted by sovtek
It seems to me that Germany doesn't have the problem

If there is one thing Germans do, it is follow the rules. This means their road deaths are 10-20% lower per capita and per km.

Other factors will be most long distance passenger traffic is by train, more goods travel by train and barge. More short journeies are done by tram and bicycle.

Driving standards are on a whole probably slightly better, i.e. driver, road, weather, etc.

bonkey

Originally posted by Victor
If there is one thing Germans do, it is follow the rules. This means their road deaths are 10-20% lower per capita and per km.

Another thing they do......autobahn driving is a mandatory part of your mandatory driving course, to be taken before you get to sit a test.

Simple, and effective.

In Ireland, you're not allowed on to the motorway until after you have a license to drive on it. Brilliant.

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by Victor

Driving standards are on a whole probably slightly better, i.e. driver, road, weather, etc.

I'd say that their roads are much better and would probably have alot to do with it. Many Germans still travel long distances by car.
I think bonkey has a point about learning courses as well. Better courses make better drivers.
I still think speed limits have a limited effect on the death rate. As do more police or cameras. I'd hate to see Ireland become like Texas where they pull you over at the drop of a hat. There are WAY too many police there.

Victor

Originally posted by sovtek
I still think speed limits have a limited effect on the death rate.

Actually they have a fundamental effect. The greater the speed the greater the death rate. The greater the differential speed the greater the death rate. Look at my posts on motors.

sovtek

Originally posted by Victor
Actually they have a fundamental effect. The greater the speed the greater the death rate. The greater the differential speed the greater the death rate. Look at my posts on motors.

Then why doesn't Germany have a worse death rate than Ireland?

Victor

Originally posted by sovtek
Then why doesn't Germany have a worse death rate than Ireland?

One imagines, because they tend to drive, sorry travel, more sensibly.

MDR

Its all about dealing the with reality of the situation,

The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

In Ireland our roads are improving, but give us the level of investment we are spending now over the next 30 years or so and we will have German quality road. Also we have huge numbers who have never sat a driving test and other who through the 'santa claus' scheme are never likely to, both groups are out on driving on our roads now. Therefore its is also going to take a long periods of investment in driver training and re-training through penalty points, to get our collective driving skills up to scratch. Therefore for these two reasons, in Ireland at least, speed is bad.

sovtek

Originally posted by MDR

In Ireland our roads are improving, but give us the level of investment we are spending now over the next 30 years or so and we will have German quality road.

That's assuming alot with the current government.

Also we have huge numbers who have never sat a driving test and other who through the 'santa claus' scheme are never likely to, both groups are out on driving on our roads now. Therefore its is also going to take a long periods of investment in driver training and re-training through penalty points, to get our collective driving skills up to scratch. Therefore for these two reasons, in Ireland at least, speed is bad.

I can see your point. Initially I could agree that speed limits that are enforced well would aid in making roads safer...initially.
I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

MDR

That's assuming alot with the current government

Comparatively they have a better track record on building infrastructure than any of their predecessors, its the other quality of life stuff, like hospitals and education they are crap at.

I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

Given the current miserable spend on the Garda, and no major increases on the horizon, I don't think its terribly likely that we are going to arrive at a situation anytime soon whereby we are over policed.

surfboy

Hi

Over the last 2 weeks I have seen a huge amount of people being stopped for speeding on the new part of the motorway that goes up to the Airport. I regularly see 2 guys on bikes stopping speeders. Mind you it's the first time in months I've seen any, and I regualrly use that road. They should spend less time on the motorways and more time on the bad spots.... but there again, it's all about getting as much cash into the coffers.

A friend of a friend of mine (Who shall remain Nameless :-) ) whom recently became a guard, actually it's problaby a year now... :-0, told me he was told to stop people going 1 mile over the limit, i.e. 31 in a 30 zome. He had to do it, and people that he stopped were going crazy!

BigEejit

I heard recently that the older generation of guards are leaving in their droves and that the guards are as much as 20% below what their projected force strength was calculated to be 2 years ago ....

In fact i heard that in one month this year more guards retired than are trained in templemore in one year (i.e. more than 600 or so)

All heard in the bar but, is there a grain of truth in it?

If it is the case then that is why the guards do not have a high visibility, there are just not enough of them .... of course there is also a element of "if youre in the station drinking cups of tea, you wont get into any trouble" .. I come from an area that has a garda training station ... at times there are as many as 35 - 40 garda in it (in a town of approx 1500 inhabitants) ... do you see any pulling for speed? very rarely .. but you NEVER see them out on the beat

sovtek

Originally posted by MDR

Given the current miserable spend on the Garda, and no major increases on the horizon, I don't think its terribly likely that we are going to arrive at a situation anytime soon whereby we are over policed.

Might it be better managing of what they do have that might improve Garda (apologies if I'm not using proper tense/spelling here) visibility?

mike65

Originally posted by MDR
The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

The Nazis were'nt all bad....

Mike.

MDR

Might it be better managing of what they do have that might improve Garda (apologies if I'm not using proper tense/spelling here) visibility?

Eh well that a very debateable point true enough, but you will always end up coming back to the not enough money and not enough Garda problem.

I heard recently that the older generation of guards are leaving in their droves and that the guards are as much as 20% below what their projected force strength was calculated to be 2 years ago ....

Lots of the older generation are being turfed out because they aren't physically fit enough for the job. They have a very good pension and the difference between the wages and pension, isn't huge so there is no incentive to hang on really. Lots of them are also leaving because of dis-illusionment with the criminal justice system and the revolving door it has become.

I come from an area that has a garda training station ... at times there are as many as 35 - 40 garda in it (in a town of approx 1500 inhabitants) ... do you see any pulling for speed?

There are other issues with this, cadets can't go out on their own, 35 garda only amounts to 12 garda a shift, if half of them are cadets thats 6 etc etc. You also have the funny issue that lots of Garda don't have a drivers license, let alone the advance driving course the garda do, therefore can't chase driving offenses. There is also server resource restraints on Garda vechicles, there aren't nearily enough, bikes or cars to go around etc etc etc etc.

Victor

Originally posted by MDR
The German's thanks to huge investment of an extended period have both very good roads and very good driver training.

Having slave labour to build the first 3,000km helped.

Originally posted by sovtek
I think you need to think carefully before putting too many cops on the road though. It will always lead to more invasive methods of policing.

I think when you have 400+ road deaths, 80+ homocides + vast numbers of injuries we could do with some more policing.

sovtek

Originally posted by Victor
I think when you have 400+ road deaths, 80+ homocides + vast numbers of injuries we could do with some more policing.

Maybe but policing is merely one aspect of the problem with road deaths. You need training courses to give drivers better skills and a better road infrastructure. As well I think that you need a better public transport infrastructure.

Villain

sorry I've haven't posted here in a while, considering I started the thread you'd imagine i'd have more of an input.

Anyway ...

I don't think training courses or the like will help resolve this problem, because im my experience it's not the lack of driving skills that gets people killed it's people abusing those skills.

I started this thread to debate police presence or lack of, the problems is police aren't working in logical educated way, if we had a real traffic core that were interested in saving lives rather than making money so they can get paid way over the top for overtime.

Police need to be visible in the danger areas at the danger times, thats the reality of it.

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1

I don't think training courses or the like will help resolve this problem, because im my experience it's not the lack of driving skills that gets people killed it's people abusing those skills.

Defensive driving IS a skill.

I started this thread to debate police presence or lack of, the problems is police aren't working in logical educated way, if we had a real traffic core that were interested in saving lives rather than making money so they can get paid way over the top for overtime.

And I can tell you that I have lived most of my life in a country (and State) that have a highly developed traffic patrol system, and it always leads to "police [not]... working in logical educated way," to save lives but to increase revenue and invade privacy.
While initially it might slow people down and save lives, the police will loose that focus and begin to do what I described above.

Police need to be visible in the danger areas at the danger times, thats the reality of it.

I'm talking from a perspective of practical experience (what some might call "reality"), not just a hypothesis.

Villain

Originally posted by sovtek
Defensive driving IS a skill.

That can't be thought to people who have no regard for other peoples safety.

I'm talking from a perspective of practical experience (what some might call "reality"), not just a hypothesis. [/B]

Well your talking from a perspective that you say has failed what we need is a new perspective with the police power to enforce it and with an ombudsman ensuring the smooth running of it

Greenbean

Quick note. Does it matter where the gardai are doing speed checks, on a personal level? If you're going over the limit you're going over the limit. Yep, its probably safer to go over the limit on big wide stretched of road etc, but its still over the limit. I definitely agree the gardai could be smarter and enforce speed limits on the more dangerous areas - its just I'm concerned with the notion that going over the limit should be seen as aceptable.

Yes, the limits seem stupid in some cases (wide open straight roads) but in others they are very apt (residential areas, even if wide and open), but a line was drawn somewhere so we'd have one, and the line chosen wasn't decided arbitrarily. The whole thing is to try save lives at the end of the day. The more speed cameras the better, driving over the speed limit isn't a human right imo. Its a bit like drunken driving "ah sure everyone does it and I won't get caught".

Villain

Originally posted by Greenbean
Its a bit like drunken driving "ah sure everyone does it and I won't get caught".

Yes but drink driving on any road has a far greater chance of killing someone.

Where as doing 70 or 60 on a main dual carriage way is a lot lest likely to kill someone compared to someone doing 60 or 70 ona back country road

sovtek

Originally posted by irish1
That can't be thought to people who have no regard for other peoples safety.

If a person is somehow mentally incapable of being taught to regard others safety (which is the key element of defensive driving) then they shouldn't be granted a license.

Well your talking from a perspective that you say has failed what we need is a new perspective with the police power to enforce it and with an ombudsman ensuring the smooth running of it

What you need to do is look at countries that have had success in lowering driver fatalities and see what aspects can be used to do the same here.
That aspect failed, on the other hand we have a good system that teaches defensive driving starting at 15 yo.
I also have a German wife (and visited/driven there on several occasions) so I also come from a perspective of definite success.
Dismissing such perspectives out-of-hand is a short path down a slippery slope.

sixtysix

outside heuston train station heading towards town the speed limit is thirty mph and there are frequent speed checks there
heading out of town on the quays near guinness also frequent speed checks again the limit is 30mph
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour so it is a very lucrative business to put speed checks at these two points.
i am not aware that either spot is an accident black spot.

sceptre

Originally posted by sixtysix
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour

I doubt I'm a better driver than you, yet I'm well capable of driving "at thirty miles per hour"

I don't have a magic car to my knowledge.

sixtysix

remember that arrogant statement when they catch you

sceptre and crown must tumble down and in the dust be equal made

bonkey

Originally posted by sixtysix
it is practically impossible to drive at thirty miles per hour so it is a very lucrative business to put speed checks at these two points.

So...let me get this straight. You have a problem obeying speed laws. This - as is becoming clear from the current discussion - is one of the basic underlying problems with safety on Irish roads.

So, given that....what is your reaction to any vague criticism about your assertion that its "impossible" to do 30????

sceptre and crown must tumble down and in the dust be equal made

Ahh. I see. The way forward is to maintain that everyone is as incapable of following the speed limit as you admit to be. Ergo, it is clearly the limit, and not the driver who is wrong here, and its okay to speed.

What next? Its impossible to do under 90 on motorway at 2am? Its impossible to go to the pub and stay below the limit?

None of these things are impossible. None of them are even difficult. Quite personally, the belief that the rules of the road are in any way "tough" to follow is one of the core underlying problems.

If you think those spots in Dublin were "impossible", you should have tried the Kilrush road out of Ennis. For about 20 years, the 30 limit extended for about 1 mile outside the last urban area, along a lovely straight, wide road. The reason - because the area had been rezoned to residential, and even though there were no houses at the time, the speed limit was mandatory.

I've seen cars doing 100 on it. I did 30. You tell me who is more likely to cause an accident, and how impossible it is to keep the limit when some drivers can manage it no problem.

Personally, I think you are confusing the word "impossible" with "frustrating" - you find it frustrating to keep the limit in these areas....and so you dont bother. There is no other valid explanation, other than saying that you have the inability to control your car's speed in general....which would indicate that you shouldn't have a license at all, so I'm assuming that its not that.

jc