working in the big bad "Industry" ??

HaVoC

just wondering what it actually is like to work in
programming??

As a 3rd year student i would like to know what i'm getting into


I was told at the moment it would take a master to get any kind
of a good job in ireland !!

any input would be appraciated

damnyanks

You sit at a desk typeing code or useing boards


Have you not done any summer work or placement work at all yet ?

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by HaVoC

I was told at the moment it would take a master to get any kind
of a good job in ireland !!

what eejit told you that? it'll take alot of effort to get a grad development job at the moment, just make sure the one you end up in will give you a year or twos varied experience in the right technology, even if it pays less than others, once you've a couple of years of really good experience its easy enough to move around and get something better/better paid. try and make sure any holiday work/after hrs work is IT related, push bigtime that you are interested in IT in your CV.

Giblet

England is probably better for jobs than Ireland at the moment, but you have to move there, be away from family/friends.
There are definatly jobs available here, but maybe not in the exact field you want, and most likely not in the pay bracket you think you deserve

phil

Graduate jobs are hard or nearly impossible to come by nowadays in Ireland. There are so many people with 3-4 years experience in programming hunting for jobs that there's no need for companies to look for graduate programmers.

IBM recently had a graduate position open and a couple of hundred people applied for the job.

What you need is experience in a certain field, or a portfolio of software to show your talent. Being merely a "graduate" isn't enough to get you a job nowadays IMHO.

Phil.

HaVoC

thanks guys


sounds like IT is a very hard area to work in have to
constantly update ur skills and spend most of your time doing it.

software portfolio eh where can i get an example of one???

but after all that is it worth it ???

my plans are to move around alot travel and work is this possible with IT???

maybe even freelance work if such a thing exists ?

dazberry

Originally posted by HaVoC
just wondering what it actually is like to work in
programming??

Sh1t and I love programming more than I love my girlfriend (if I had a girlfriend ).

Ok, more seriously, I've worked in the IT industry purely in Software Development for the last 9 years, so these are just observations of where I've worked, what I've learned over the years, and where friends are/have worked. Others experience may be different, but keep what I say in mind anyway.

[01] Programming isn't all about programming
Not all, but IMO most software that is actually written is some form of business software, in that it models the processes and procedures in software of a particular business process or collection thereof.

You may or may not be able to find some technical solice in what you eventually have to write, but be aware that you could very well end up being required to write the most boring and uninteresting software in the world. This may or may not bother you, it bothers me.

[02] Unmanaged software lifecycles are hell
I've only worked for one company that has been anyway effective in managing the software development lifecycle (most of the time - faultering due to external pressures), others have had no concept of this at all, and there are those that are so reactive that deliverables are the bottom line fullstop.

Most software you'll ever write will be more than a 50 line program to do a specific thing. As the complexity increases, and the lifecycle management decreases, compromises are made to get the deliverables out the door. The less engineered and more reactive development becomes, the more time you will spend as the product matures in implementing less and less functionality, and the more pressure you'll be under to actually deliver.

[03] Unmanaged, badly managed or alien development standards are hell
Ok, everybody has their own way that they like to do things, so standards can actually be very good. Alien standards, are those you don't like, but may have a lot of merit, and you can either learn from (and take onboard) or be frustrated to the point of insanity - but remember who pays you

The problem arises when (see [06]) your immediate management have risen to their own level of incompetence. Because your boss was a guru at RPG doesn't mean that you should still write software as if you were programming in RPG (when you're not) and additionally has say no concept of OO but must justify their position by enforcing these rules.

[04] Not all software is virgin or green field and the 20/80% split
Firstly, its nice to write new software, it's not so nice to maintain old software. You have an advantage if you wrote the software originally, so that even if you know better now, you can figure out what you were doing before. If you're maintaining someone elses software it is a lot more difficult.

In addition even if its green field software, you tend to get to a point whereby you've done (and enjoyed) 80% of the deliverables, and you suffer thru' the last 20%. Its worse if its the ratio is reversed (see [01]).

[05] Software development is a process not a project
By definition, a project has a defined start and end point. A process on the other had doesn't. Just because you finish something don't expect it to be finished - ever.

[06] Someone in the management chain above you will be an idiot
This may be an immediate superior, or it could be higher up the chain, but eventually you realise that someone somewhere in the works is making your job a lot more difficult - because they're an idiot.

[07] Be prepared to be blamed for something that isn't your fault
Unashamedly this relates to [06]. Requirements are passed down the chain, and credit passed back up. The problem arises when there is a weak link in that chain, because blame always filters down. Additionally, because someone is very good at their job, doesn't mean they're good at managing yours, notably if they micro manage down a few levels, not because they should, because they can.

[08] The grass is always greener on the other side - not
You sell yourself and your abilities as much to get a job as the job is sold to you. Although things may not be so good at the moment, both I and friends have taken jobs that are nothing like they says on the tin. Imagine taking a C++/Windows job and spending 18 months writing asm device drivers in DOS. Career prospects anyone?

[09] 9 to 5.30 is a fallacy either way
Here's your choice. You can be really flexible and do those extra hours when you have to (and I and most of those I know do). The problem is when what you do out of flexiblity becomes a standard. Against that, I know a team lead that had his team axed last year. One of the guys was a 9 to 5.30 guy, his stuff was faultless, and he met his deadlines. Seems to me you're damned if you do, and are damned if you don't.

[0A] Often the development staff generate bad will, just by the nature of their job.
Depending on the nature of the culture you work in, development staff can take the butt end of other peoples unhappiness with their lot. I worked in a place whereby the favourate phrase was "the developers do nothing". The thing is, because you saw me arrive in at 9.30 (instead of 9) you didn't see me leave at 8.30pm, or arrive at 7.30am other days for that matter, or when you had a fun weekend - guess what I was doing.

The rough side of this began when I found that people were too busy to do their jobs for me, yet I always managed to help others out beyond my scope. One day after climbing around the ceilings routing cables because those that should do wouldn't, I realised, enough is enough.

[0B] There are sharks in them waters
Finally, just because someone gives you a job, doesn't mean you sell your soul. One employer had us working for peanuts (almost) and yet still managed to take incredible expenses out of the company - 7 years later and I still haven't been paid my last month. One job I didn't take - I subsequently learned from people I met on the circuit - was issuing rubber wages cheques, and a friend of mine is 4k in arrears for the last 2 years in wages from his employer. Remember you only write the software, no matter what you do you can't turn around the company's fortune, so don't feel guilty when you get the bleeding heart stories.

D.

Hobbes

I was told at the moment it would take a master to get any kind
of a good job in ireland !!

Learn to speak Hindi, or Polish if you don't want to go too far. :rolleyes:

ButcherOfNog

Originally posted by HaVoC
sounds like IT is a very hard area to work in have to
constantly update ur skills and spend most of your time doing it.

Em, yes, but its not a problem if you're interested in it and enjoy it, if you're not then why did you do an IT course?

Typedef

Most software you'll ever write will be more than a 50 line program to do a specific thing. As the complexity increases, and the lifecycle management decreases, compromises are made to get the deliverables out the door. The less engineered and more reactive development becomes, the more time you will spend as the product matures in implementing less and less functionality, and the more pressure you'll be under to actually deliver.

Quite true.

Always - write as much code in a way you'd like it written and keep as much of the method 'secret' from most management droids... because they'll second guess you.


Never - apportion any merit (in terms of design) to those who's job it is to manage deadlines.

They'll just break your beautiful code logic, with non-scalable hack jobs, which ultimately increase development time 'going forward'*

*Yes... I just said 'going forward'.... I'm bucking for a raise you see.

The rough side of this began when I found that people were too busy to do their jobs for me, yet I always managed to help others out beyond my scope.

Typedef : Recently bought the sticker from thinkgeek to put onto laptop backpaneling which reads
"No I will not fix your computer".

machalla

I don't think I'd advise anyone to get into programming these days. The long term prospects are bleak. Ultimately we will be competing against some vey bright people out in India (and similar places further afield) where there are more than enough people to supply what little demand there is these days. Not to mention the fact that $2000-5000 dollars is the kind of wages that will be paid to some of the excellent developers in these countries. I was amused to see a story on slashdot recently where it seems India was becoming too expensive for multinationals at these wage rates and that they were looking to move on to a cheaper location if they could. I think the comment from someone in the Indian enterprise board was that the ideal country for the multinationals would be somewhere they could get people to work for free (or preferrably pay them for the privilege!). Software can be built anywhere in the world these days. There are better prospects in support or Sys Admin in that to a large extent someone is still needed onsite to sort a lot of problems (not all of course). You never need quite as many sys-admins as developers though.

Mind you I'm probably just being negative. We should probably all the believe the govenment when they tell us the future is bright and paved with gold. Probably.

Typedef

Be calm citizen.

The future is bright and paved with gold.

All is well..
Consume....

McGintyMcGoo

Dazberry, that was an incredibly well written piece of advice and was all very true!!

In particular, this applies to my job ...
"The thing is, because you saw me arrive in at 9.30 (instead of 9) you didn't see me leave at 8.30pm, or arrive at 7.30am other days for that matter, or when you had a fun weekend - guess what I was doing. "

Just thought that I would mention it!

Evil Phil

Always - write as much code in a way you'd like it written and keep as much of the method 'secret' from most management droids... because they'll second guess you.

So true. I spent the best part of a month developing document imaging functionality for a project. The functionality was scraped because a member of senior management (who hadn't worked as a developer in 15 years) was scared of the Windows API. 'Too low level' apparently. A months work lost and I was made redundant shortly after.

The irony is my code was included in the released software, replacing the code that was written to replace it. Somebody mentioned idiots?

Talliesin

Originally posted by machalla
I don't think I'd advise anyone to get into programming these days.

I wouldn't advise anyone to get into programming any time!

With any creative job you need to be so into it that even if everyone said it was a lousy career choice and there was no money in it and you'll probably die a pauper, you'd still want to give it a go.
When you are prepared to deal with the crappy state the industry is in now, you're the sort of person we could have done with more of when everyone and their dog was programming, and often the dog produced better code.

Typedef

What Talliesin said is absolutely true.

When I started out programming, I had more experience of Tech support, which meant, I was earning 85% of what I would have been earning in tech, because I was an neophyte programmer.

If you are looking for a 'very' satisfying vocation, with long hours, but, sometimes highly intellectually challenging design/implementation paradigms, then program.

If you're looking to be a character from hackers, go get yourself some rollerblades and do something not-too-technical.

IMHO, the words too-technical, aren't in a good programmer's vocabularly.... you might think that's a purist thing to say, but, sometimes, nothing irks me more, the people who are 'paid' to write complex logical software... saying things like "Oh... (thing (x)) is too technical/over my head".
WTF did you become a programmer for, if the job is over your head?
</rant>

Earthhorse

While I can’t claim to have the same amount of experience in the industry as dazberry, nor the breadth and depth of knowledge of the more regular posters to this board, I think it’s important to view his post in context.

A lot of what he’s saying isn’t specific to software development or even the broader area of IT. In particular points 6, 7 and 8 could apply to almost any job you hope to get. No matter where you’re employed you can expect to work for idiots. Not only that you can expect to work above them, beside them, beyond them, around them and through them.

It’s also true that blame is passed down the management structure rather than up it, at least in any important way. But programmers are not on the bottom rung of the ladder. Or at least they’re not on the bottom rung of the bottom ladder. I worked in administration for three years and believe me anything, any job that they couldn’t find a home for, got dumped there, regardless of whether people were trained in on how to do it or not. Try working in reception or the post room some time – they’re they most under appreciated people in the world.

I agree with you that unmanaged software cycles are hell but I also believe that software development is a relatively young field and that most people, particularly those with a pure business background, don’t know what’s involved. It’s our job, as the people who have studied software development, formally or informally, to educate them and put our feet down when they don’t listen.

What typedef and Talliesin have said in the last two posts is spot on. There were times, particularly in my first few months, where I thought, “Uh oh, I’m out of my depth here. I genuinely don’t know how to make the program do what they want it to do”. Three hours (or days, whatever) later I’d be punching the air with delight.

If you don’t get satisfaction from making a computer do what you couldn’t make it do when you woke up that morning then take a rain check on the whole programming thing.

Best o’ luck
Earth

HaVoC

Typedef have to ageree with you there.

i'm interested in programming very much.

but is it possiable to get work ??
people have been saying it ok in the uk.

but what did of work can you get over there ??

Gavin

I've worked in two small companies programming, working in another one now, and done reasonably substantial projects on my own. I was advised by a person several years in the industry to try and get an initial job (I've just graduated) in a large corporation instead of a small company.

Reason being stability & the larger places will invest more money on you. You will get sent on courses, trained up in areas etc. However, you may have no say in application development, and may hate the disgusting capitalistic corporate environment.

With a small company, you have a better chance of providing decent input to the companies direction/products. You may like it more, but small companies are falling like flies these days. Well actually, not so much lately I've noticed, most of the crap ones have been culled out it seems and the rest are scraping along.

However, I'm going to do a taught masters and then look at a Phd. Luckily enough I found a masters that I really wanted to do first and then second discovered the lack of jobs.

Seemingly there will be a crisis in the industry in a couple of years due to the extremely low amount of people entering computing now, meaning a lack of people later on... Things will probably have improved a bit when you are leaving college anyway.

Gav

Silent Bob

Originally posted by Typedef
"Oh... (thing (x)) is too technical/over my head".
WTF did you become a programmer for, if the job is over your head?
</rant>

Someone in my class last academic year (3rd year CS) asked "What does while(true) do?"

Demonstrating in one simple sentence a complete lack of understanding of

• how while loops work
• what true means

<shakes head>

Kernel32

I have worked as a professional developer for 8 years now, 3 in Ireland, 5 in the United States and now I am back in Ireland working as a contractor. The industry is crappy right now, particularly for grads but there is good work out there, just more competition. I got my contract based on a phone interview and its pays well even by comparison to US money. I will probably move to London for a while after this contract.
If you are flexible, willing to move more than 5 miles from your parents and constantly keep you technical and business skills up to date then you can do well even in down times.

My 2 cent.

HaVoC

dazberry what area do you work in if you dont mind me asking



well kernel32 i would like to move around so that no problem
and keeping my skills up to date well its always good to know more i guess.

How did you get into contracting its an area i'd like as u can move around alot that way not tied to any company or any place

Typedef

Originally posted by HaVoC


but is it possiable to get work ??
people have been saying it ok in the uk.

Difficult to say.

I guess it depends on (a) if you have the smarts for it and (b) if you have commitment for it.

dazberry

Originally posted by HaVoC
dazberry what area do you work in if you dont mind me asking

I've been a contractor since 98 so I generally get to do what I'm given , which one thing for sure, it gives you variety - be it in the technical or business arenas. Prior to that I worked in a Bank :eek:, an IT Security company :eek::eek: and a Medical Software company.

Two things I've always avoided are VB and accounting software (not necessarily related). I suspect if I did I'd have many more opportunities (Re: Kernal32's post)... but you gotta draw the line somewhere

I love writing multiuser socket servers (threaded, overlapped or a combination) but there doesn't seem to be any scope for doing that here, thats just what I do as a hobby.

I saw your post on 3rd year diploma ideas, there's one for you. It's amazing how many people don't understand how to write multithreaded software properly.

One thing I should say is that I might have seemed very down on software as a whole in my original post. The truth is that I love writing software, and there are days that I'm sitting at the keyboard and have to smile to myself because I still can't believe that people pay me for something that I love doing.

Although I'm working at the moment, for a good crowd that pay pretty well, at the end of it all, I just can't shake the feeling that there is no real future in this anymore. Not because I don't want to do it anymore, it just feels like a commodity. When the consensus is that the guys in India are becoming too expensive on a salary of 4-6k p/a so ppl are starting to look at Eastern Europe, you just gotta say to yourself - where is this going.

My 2 (Euro) cents.

D.

HaVoC

well i like doing programming and

well i'm going to stay at it

get my degree and hopefully a job

Kernel32

Contracting is very new to me. I left my job as a Technical Architect in the States because the company I worked for was too unstable. Becoming a contractor was just a way to spend some time back in Ireland, so far I don't think a whole lot of contracting. Its like I have stepped back in time 4 years with the company I am working for, doing ASP and VB again, but thats generally the way big IT works, slow and conservative and generally no idea how to develop software, just a random collection of programmers.
But thats the beauty of this industry, my contract is up in six months and I can move on, I would prefer to get back to a full time position.

machalla

Not entirely serious but its actually got some genuine points in there (particularly in regard to documentation).

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~bonds/software.html

damnyanks

Not found

DaithiSurfer

I've been cotracting for a while now and can't fault it.
The thing about software development is you always get people who will tell you they know more about it and how things should be done than anyone else (just read this thread).
Everyone is an expert and their bosses are crap.
The real deal is that, yoiu get a job, you do the job, if you get to be creative, fine , if you don't you get paid.
Its a job like any other.
There are ups and down, people you like, don't like.
You will find your way eventually, thats called experience.

Typedef

Don't mind DaithiSurfer, he's sold his sole to the man.

fprintf(humour,"%s\n","<Deposit €0.10>");
fflush(humour);

gom

Post-Grad study

PhD or Masters

they go along way

l3rian

the situation sounds bleak.

I'm going into 4th year doing comp science and maths, what would be a good plan for me next year?

Gavin

a masters as the man says !

l3rian

a masters sounds like a good plan. Anyone here done a masters? what exam results do they ask for on the application form?

cravian

I did a PhD and have been working as an IT contractor around europe for about 6 years. It's a nice life, but you get to like the money too much and you suddenly find that you don't take holidays and forget where you put your life.

Also, you tend to get the bum jobs - even though you're an expert in your field.

I'm just packed it in to look for something more rewarding in the soul department for a few years to get a perspective and get my life back.

FYI I'm a unix, c++, comms kind of person.

In my experience IT really is selling out to the main as was said before.

l3rian

Hi cravian

Is there much work in the IT industry around europe? like Germany for instance?

I like what you said about the finance department taking over, it doesn't look to bleak anymore.

What masters would you recommend for someone who wants good money, and doesnt mind doing any bum jobs?

cravian

hi again,

I can only speak for myself really - I did a Masters in Communications Systems, purely because I was interested in networking and low level comms then went on to a PhD in Maths and Computing dealing with Image Compression.

After all that I ended up fixing broken code in the back end of mobile networks

I'd say the most important thing about any post graduate qualification is that it's in a subject in which you have a personal interest (so you get motivated) and it's a subject in which you don't know too much about already (as it can become tedious if you're not learning most of the time).

If you're an IT degree person, think about specializing in something you like the look of maybe.

Workwise check out something like jobserve on http://www.it.jobserve.com or one of the other similar sites - perhaps if it's ireland you're specifically interested in try http://www.recruitireland.com. From what i've seen although Germany is officially in recession there's still jobs to be had there, also in Switzerland though it's hard to get a work permit as they're not in the EU (lucky sods, ho ho).

I'm sure given a little more time the IT industry in general will pick up as ever. As was suggested (by gom), for the time being perhaps a post grad qualification is a good idea.

Good luck on your journey!

Typedef

In my experience IT really is selling out to the main as was said before.

Dump of assembler code for function main:
0x804db50 <main>: push %ebp
0x804db51 <main+1>: mov %esp,%ebp
0x804db53 <main+3>: push %edi
0x804db54 <main+4>: push %esi
0x804db55 <main+5>: push %ebx
0x804db56 <main+6>: sub $0x764,%esp

For sale....


But seriously. In the last place I worked in, there was exactly one guy who had a masters in programming. One guy had his BSc in Cs, and aside from that, out of 15 developers, not one of us had anything except experience in the industry as qualification (and some non University certs of some description or another).

I really think that doing a masters to get a job programming is overkill.

My last interview, I had to point out to the interviewer I hadn't been to college, since he passed a comment about me "wanting to go back", where upon he checked my CV and said.
"Actually, I'd only looked at your experience to date".

What else can I say. Yes a degree can be a huge benefit... in getting in on the bottom rung, which is something you have to be prepaired to do in your first job.

Nobody is going to hire a graduate in a Senior position, with zero experience. You have to have 'some' experience else you are low man on the totem pole.
My last company hire most of it's programming team from FAS, or from various non-Tertiary courses, for the simple reason that the guys will do the same work, but, cheaper and are much more likely to do things the companies way... as opposed to what said programmer thinks is the 'best' way.

Yeah, you have to be prepaired to swallow your pride, until you get experience, so forget about what 'you' think a degree should mean in the market place, because experience is worth a hell of a lot more or the willingness to do the dog work, by virtue of the fact you're the low guy on the totem pole.

Oh and since I have become a rollerblader... I have to say... rollerblades 'are leet' and increase technical ability tenfold!

Trojan

If you've got a business degree, an MSc would be useful, but if you're already qualified in the area, a Masters is overkill like the boy said.

Some companies, particularly the bigger ones, just will not hire someone at engineer level if they don't have a degree. It could be a degree in Music for all they care, but they must have a degree. After that, it's down to knowledge & experience.

If you can, get industry work experience during your summer breaks - don't get a bar job like the great unwashed - find someone who knows someone who's willing to pay you 100 euros a week to do simple database admin if necessary. Just get out there and get stuff to put on your cv.

The industry isn't bad, but you can end up in positions where you've very little human contact, dealing with machines only for weeks on end - that can be very difficult unless you're the epitome of geekiness.