RTE on FTA ?

Silvera

What is the future for RTE now that the BBC and others are set to become available here on FTA satellite ?

I believe the best option for RTE would be to do a deal with the BBC which would allow them broadcast via Astra 2D.

Silvera.

sceptre

The BBC don't control any of the Astra birds in any way - they just transmit on them.

watty

RTE and all the other Irish services have always shared a single 2D transponder.

Till recently RTE couldn't see logic of FTV or FTA. They thought Satellite was just the same as MMDS, but more channels.

Their Sky deal is till 2008. Sky pays for Carriage and Encryption and in return can put RTE1, NEt2, TG4 in any pack they like at any price.

RTE have their own uplink, previously used for Tara.


Sky don't own or control any satellite either. All the Satellites received on Digibox (4 at present) are either owned and operated by SES-Astra (2A, 2B, 2D) or Eutelsat (Eurobird).

bkehoe

RTE built a new uplink for their 28*E setup. For Tara they used to uplink to some Atlantic sat, one of the Intelsat ones I think, FTA. Sky used to then receive it from here, and then uplink to 28*E. They still have this uplink afaik, as I think they still have feeds on the same sat.

Greenman

I remember the good old days watching TARA FTA on 34.5 degrees west. I used a 1.2 meter dish just to receive 1 channel. TARA was a very nice channel.

Lennoxschips

Surely the government could demand that an FTV scheme be setup?

They've already managed to force the FAI/Sky into adjusting their contract agreement, so the precedent is there to do it.

byte

Maybe the Govt was more worried about football than RTE on Sky? If the British TV corps were unhappy with RTE going FTA on Astra 2, there's nothing to stop them transmitting FTA on Hotbird or Astra 1 19E, is there, as a majority of UK homes use 28E position? Just a thought :rolleyes:

sceptre

Originally posted by byte
Maybe the Govt was more worried about football than RTE on Sky?

Certainly so - it affects more people. Not doing something about the football would have been thrown back in their faces by many people come election time (many of whom would go to the damn pub to watch the matches anyway but that's beside the point). Given that theoretically everyone in the country can receive RTE on analogue terrestrial anyway it affects far fewer people (including me obviously given that I can't receive an analogue signal)

Skyhater

The Facts are:

1) RTE can break their deal with sky.... this will cost them
or RTE can wait until the current deal runs out
2) After either option, RTE can do exactly what BBC have done (they may have problems negotiating a deal with sky to carry their channels on the EPG, if they break the contract)
3) HOWEVER!!!! RTE will be able to broadcast very little material on Digital Sat...... They don't have the rights to broadcast any Sport or Foreign TV programs in the UK. Only home Grown programs (News, Late Late, Nationwide) can be broadcast

This is the big issue, and why it is impractical for them to broadcast FTA. The right costs for any program to broadcast over the British Isles (and most of France, Belgium, Luxemburg and Holland) are far too much for RTE.

Genghis

Skyhater,

By implication in point 3, are you asserting that BBC paid for additional rights beyond the UK. The answer to this would be interesting - my guess is no.

Their argument, again my guess, would be that they have an obligation to broadcast to their audience on all available platforms. They have chosen the satellite option most focussed on that audience, and they therefore are not actively broadcasting outside their rights area, insofar as they can help it.

Now RTE making that argument is a different thing altogether - the BBC is all powerful after all, but perhaps in a few years when RTE's contract expires and ITV, C4 and C5 have followed the BBC route, then it will be de rigeur for RTE to do the same.

sceptre

Originally posted by Genghis
By implication in point 3, are you asserting that BBC paid for additional rights beyond the UK. The answer to this would be interesting - my guess is no.

Your guess is correct - they've emphatically said that they haven't.

Here's a comparison for you though:
BBC start broadcasting FTA on Astra 2D. Potential extra audience: 4 million Irish
That's about an 8% increase

RTE start broadcasting FTA on Astra 2D. Potential extra audience: 60 million UK types
That's about a 1500% increase

See the problem with regard to broadcasting rights?

(obviously I'm ignoring the entirely legal tricks that people outside the 2D coverage area can do to get coverage - people from Cyprus on Digitalspy have reported being able to get the beeb on a 4 metre dish. This is so uncommon (and so expensive) that it doesn't enter the equation. Also ignoring the spillover into northern France, Benelux countries etc. Again, most people in these areas have their dishes pointed in a different direction so it's relatively uncommon there as well)

Genghis

I see that point clearly, Skyhater. What I was hoping to illustrate was that by the time RTE get out of their contract with Sky, the current framework that covers rights - one which assumes limited overspill, based on terrestrial transmission - will have changed to accept that when it comes to satellite, broadcasters only pay for native rights, even if they overspill (so long as they take all reasonable steps to limit overspill).

The 2D satellite is the 'near-as-can-be' best attempt to limit broadcast to a specific territory.

My theory is that the biggest barrier to this situation coming about does not come from the rights-holders at all. It will in fact come from the broadcasters themselves kicking up about it.

Obviously if RTE began broadcasting in the clear to the UK tomorrow, the terrestrials would move to stop them. However by 2008, when all of them have been broadcasting to Ireland for several years without any intention of paying for that right, the precedent is set and they then can't very well complain - RTE are just doing what they do.

I also believe that once the right holders get paid fairly for both jurisdictions, they won't care less about what broadcasters do.

In summary, the traditional view of broadcasting and territory is shifting, and eventually policy and the way things are done needs to follow suit.

Skyhater

Given the argument above the benefit of the Doubt... there is one further problem.
RTE would definitely loose it's privileged position of been able to show shows earlier than the BBC, ITV or event the Mighty Sky One and E4.
Shows such as ER, Friends and 24 (where RTE are week ahead of even BBC3) would definitely be shown on British TV first. This would lead to a major loss in viewers for these programs, thus hitting RTE's bottom line.:(
RTE would be shooting itself in the Foot!

ShaneOC

Originally posted by Skyhater
RTE would definitely loose it's privileged position of been able to show shows earlier than the BBC, ITV or event the Mighty Sky One and E4.

Why?

Skyhater

Simply Because at the moment RTE's argument is that the other channels don't have the rights to broadcast these programs in Ireland, therefore RTE are allowed to broadcast them earlier.
If RTE were FTA on Digital Sat, they would not have a hope of being allowed to broadcast before the higher paying BBC, etc.

Lennoxschips

Ok, no FTA then, but why not FTV?

i.e. if you come along to the post office to renew your tv license they should also give you an ftv card for a nominal fee if you request one.

Genghis

That argument depends on your perspective, there are losses, but there are gains. I would argue that the gains could easily outweigh the benefits.

1. RTE is an indigenous Irish producer of original content. In this sense it has a sizeable niche market over which it has primary rights. Instead of a market of 4m as it currently is, this output would instead have close to 6m 'Irish people' - including NI, plus perhaps another 2m ex-pats in the UK / people of Irish descent, that is not to mention any native viewers it picks up. Fair City for example had a core audience of non Irish people on Tara TV, as I am sure many other programmes had. Result - potential viewership for original content doubles, possibly triples.

2. In relation to imported shows, you are right - the UK channels will surely seek to show first. However, a clever programming strategy might overcome this - say BBC show 24 on primetime Sunday, RTE could show the same episode the following evening, or in a different time slot, and still pick up a residual audience - quite possibly more than it currently gets.

My argument goes as follows. RTE currently show 24 first, just in Ireland. Assume that 1m watch this show in ROI. Assume further that RTE pick up 80% of that (with the BBC picking up 20% for viewers who missed on RTE). That's 800,000 viewers RTE might lose.

Now in the UK, where the market is 14 times larger, assume 14m watch 24. Including Ireland then, BBC show 24 to a potential first audience of 15m viewers. Using the same 80% figure, they pick up 12m viewers on the premiere. RTE show it the next night, and pick up the other 3m viewers.

Net gain - 2.2m viewers.

3. RTE could also craft a very successful strategy for advertisers - a direct route to a realtively homogenous 'Irish' market - that would far outstrip the niche appeal that a lot of other satellite channels go for.

DMC

The only problem with that is Genghis, is that first run gets the monies. It gets the advertising that way.

Advertisers do not find repeats as appetising as first runs, so therefore there is no chance that RTÉ will be able to charge the same premium for repeats as they do for first runs.

Non runner. Commercial suicide (literally)

Skyhater's arguments are sound, its is in my eyes a lot better for RTÉ to keep taking the Sky buck for the foreseeable future (as much as that is irksome). I would love RTÉ to be FTA on digital satellite, I'd be amongst the first to applaud, but because RTÉ relies on European premieres of TV shows and movies, to protect that position against the biggest competition a small wee nation's national broadcaster could have is fine with me.

John R

Originally posted by Genghis
I see that point clearly, Skyhater. What I was hoping to illustrate was that by the time RTE get out of their contract with Sky, the current framework that covers rights - one which assumes limited overspill, based on terrestrial transmission - will have changed to accept that when it comes to satellite, broadcasters only pay for native rights, even if they overspill (so long as they take all reasonable steps to limit overspill).

The 2D satellite is the 'near-as-can-be' best attempt to limit broadcast to a specific territory.

My theory is that the biggest barrier to this situation coming about does not come from the rights-holders at all. It will in fact come from the broadcasters themselves kicking up about it.

Obviously if RTE began broadcasting in the clear to the UK tomorrow, the terrestrials would move to stop them. However by 2008, when all of them have been broadcasting to Ireland for several years without any intention of paying for that right, the precedent is set and they then can't very well complain - RTE are just doing what they do.

I also believe that once the right holders get paid fairly for both jurisdictions, they won't care less about what broadcasters do.

In summary, the traditional view of broadcasting and territory is shifting, and eventually policy and the way things are done needs to follow suit.

This is simply incorrect, the important factor is money. The UK is the biggest market for US exports and as long as RTE want the output of major hollywood studios they have to play ball. Quite apart from the fact that by broadcasting outside of Ireland they would be breaking a contract term and would be sued, if they tried it on the studios would just refuse to supply them with any programming. The UK broadcasters would not accept RTE poaching their audience for programmes they had paid a fortune for exclusive rights to. For example channel 4 have paid a reported £700,000 per episode for the Simpsons from 2004. They would be very quick to demand action and compensation from their suppliers if RTE began transmitting these episodes in the clear to the UK audience. RTE who I would guess pay less than £700,000 for an entire series of the simpsons would very quickly be dropped or sued if they continued to infringe on other teritories.

Capt'n Midnight

On the continent they just encrypt or blank the signal when showing programs for which they don't have licenses to broadcast.

Or as I've said you could have one channel showing the bits of RTE + Network2 that they are allowed to show.

Note: TG4 would be on to a winner here - usually the broadcast fee is based on the number of people speak the langague.....

loftus

"For example channel 4 have paid a reported £700,000 per episode for the Simpsons from 2004"

So are the simpsons going to be on channel 4 next year and not BBC 2?

sceptre

Originally posted by loftus
So are the simpsons going to be on channel 4 next year and not BBC 2?

Yes and no. Channel 4 will be the only UK terrestrial channel showing from season 12 on (also known as "the crap ones") and they'll also be showing repeats of the earlier series. They'll start showing them in 2004. The Beeb have the rights to first showing of up to & including season 11 & will have repeats of these as well and reportedly will be showing these until 2006.

John R

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
On the continent they just encrypt or blank the signal when showing programs for which they don't have licenses to broadcast.

To encrypt any part of the programming would mean using SKY's encryption system either as part of a subscription service (as we have now) or as a FTV system similar to the one the BBC did not want the expense of funding.
Blanking out would work, although how many people would be happy with just RTE's own output, very few IMO

Or as I've said you could have one channel showing the bits of RTE + Network2 that they are allowed to show.

They had a channel exactly like that: Tara TV, it closed last year for various reasons.

Note: TG4 would be on to a winner here - usually the broadcast fee is based on the number of people speak the langague.....

Except that TG4 also show much imported content, all in English, if it was dubbed into Irish they could beam it across the globe without any problem. Just because the channel is presented and has homegrown content in Irish, they could not get away with rights infringement any more than RTE could.

rlogue

Does anyone remember that earlier in the year I'd got two conflicting emails from people in RTÉ CEL?

One person was very confident that an RTÉ UK service based on the concept of Tara TV would launch soon and the other was very pessimistic that such a thing would happen.

Can anyone shed some light as to what Montrose is thinking?

Having the Radio services is great, but actually getting some Irish TV in the UK again would be even better.

Genghis

Originally posted by John R
This is simply incorrect, the important factor is money. The UK is the biggest market for US exports and as long as RTE want the output of major hollywood studios they have to play ball. Quite apart from the fact that by broadcasting outside of Ireland they would be breaking a contract term and would be sued, if they tried it on the studios would just refuse to supply them with any programming. The UK broadcasters would not accept RTE poaching their audience for programmes they had paid a fortune for exclusive rights to. For example channel 4 have paid a reported £700,000 per episode for the Simpsons from 2004. They would be very quick to demand action and compensation from their suppliers if RTE began transmitting these episodes in the clear to the UK audience. RTE who I would guess pay less than £700,000 for an entire series of the simpsons would very quickly be dropped or sued if they continued to infringe on other teritories.

I agree with everything you said. Money is a central issue, of course it is. My point is that the BBC are doing exactly what you say RTE will be prevented from doing. What happens if in 5 years time ALL UK channels are doing the same?

That is my point - that the landscape is changing. Your argument makes perfect sense now, and has made perfect sense for years. If all 'terrestrial' broadcasters across both these territories decide that FTA Satellite is the best way forward, then they will implicitly have to accept that overspill is more prevalent.

I have actually framed a more thorough idea as to how this could also work here

Capt'n Midnight

RE: "To encrypt any part of the programming would mean using SKY's encryption "

They could use any number of analog systems without having to go through SKY's propritery one - which almost no one else uses..

Or if they used digital - I seem to remember that for about €30 extra on some of the basic Humax boxes you get viaccess built in...

It's a political question , at worst a financial one - it is most definitely not a technical problem, except in the sense of which mature technology to use.

PS. love the encryption system RAI use on analog - some people get worse reception unencrypted...

mate

Rologue I've been getting RTE 1, Net 2, TV 3 & TG 4 here in Essex for the past six months. If you get an ROI family subscription at an address in Ireland, I use my parents address in sligo. Works great no problems.

John R

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
RE: "To encrypt any part of the programming would mean using SKY's encryption "

They could use any number of analog systems without having to go through SKY's propritery one - which almost no one else uses..

Or if they used digital - I seem to remember that for about €30 extra on some of the basic Humax boxes you get viaccess built in...

It's a political question , at worst a financial one - it is most definitely not a technical problem, except in the sense of which mature technology to use.

PS. love the encryption system RAI use on analog - some people get worse reception unencrypted...

Yes of course technically RTE could use any encryption system they wanted. They would have to pay for it of course, while a viaccess decoder module may be cheap for the user, the broadcaster has to pay a licence to use it and has to organise card distribution.

With the exception of a small number of satellite enthusiasts nobody in Ireland has the ability to recieve digital or analogue satellite signals encrypted by any system other than that owned by SKY. That is exactly why SKY only let their encryption system be used in boxes that they authorise, and why none of these boxes have the ability to accept different encryption systems. They have effectively gained complete control over satellite broadcasting to UK and Ireland, the British government could have insisted they adhere to the cam system used in other EU countries but they did not.

John R

Originally posted by Genghis
I agree with everything you said. Money is a central issue, of course it is. My point is that the BBC are doing exactly what you say RTE will be prevented from doing. What happens if in 5 years time ALL UK channels are doing the same?

The 4 main UK channels have had over 60% penetration in Ireland for decades. RTE have virtually no viewers in the huge British market The BBC going FTA satellite will not have a large effect on their Irish viewership, any attempt by RTE to gain an audience in Britain would be a very big deal now or in the future.

That is my point - that the landscape is changing. Your argument makes perfect sense now, and has made perfect sense for years. If all 'terrestrial' broadcasters across both these territories decide that FTA Satellite is the best way forward, then they will implicitly have to accept that overspill is more prevalent.

I have actually framed a more thorough idea as to how this could also work here

That may work, in the fantasy land where everything you want magically comes true, but here in the real world it is just not going to happen. You are just trying to build scenarios to fit an outcome you would like to see, it just doesn't fit in with reality.

Genghis

John,

I am genuinely interested in your ideas as to what may happen - what what do you believe will happen come 2008 when RTE's contract with Sky expires.

1. Will UK terrestrials still be paying Sky for encryption as now (or will they be FTA, as BBC is now).
2. Will Sky begin charging RTE for encryption
3. Will RTE be able to pay Sky / remain on the Sky platform
4. If UK channels are FTA, and RTE are not, how will RTE overcome the possibility that Irish viewers will be able to pick up several FTA UK channels for no cost, and will tend to cancel subscription platforms (the only means by which 70-80% of homes currently receive RTE)
5. Given that satellite TV may well become the leading (or second) means of TV reception by 2008, how would you suggest RTE develop a strategy for ensuring that the people who pay their licence fee can receive their channels - regardless of how they choose to receive their signal (just as BBC have done, if you will).

sceptre

Originally posted by Genghis
subscription platforms (the only means by which 70-80% of homes currently receive RTE)

<cough>
What?

icdg

70-80%??? In Dublin yes (and more like 95%). Down the country its a lot less. Remember analogue MMDS does not have RTE.

John R

Originally posted by Genghis
John,

I am genuinely interested in your ideas as to what may happen - what what do you believe will happen come 2008 when RTE's contract with Sky expires.

1. Will UK terrestrials still be paying Sky for encryption as now (or will they be FTA, as BBC is now).
2. Will Sky begin charging RTE for encryption
3. Will RTE be able to pay Sky / remain on the Sky platform
4. If UK channels are FTA, and RTE are not, how will RTE overcome the possibility that Irish viewers will be able to pick up several FTA UK channels for no cost, and will tend to cancel subscription platforms (the only means by which 70-80% of homes currently receive RTE)
5. Given that satellite TV may well become the leading (or second) means of TV reception by 2008, how would you suggest RTE develop a strategy for ensuring that the people who pay their licence fee can receive their channels - regardless of how they choose to receive their signal (just as BBC have done, if you will).

1. The BBC won't. ITV appear to be heading towards FTA sooner rather than later, as for the other two right now they don't seem to care about free access over satellite. C4 do benefit from ROI viewers in that they sell some of their "UTV Region" adverts to companies primarily targetting ROI households. Five on the other hand have always been opposed to ROI viewing. I really have no idea what either will be doing in 5 years.

2. Sky's deal with RTE was put in place to increase ROI subs, if SKY believe that they can increase their revenue by charging RTE I am sure that they will do.

3. I would expect that RTE would find it difficult to dissappear from the SKY platform after 5 years if a significant number of viewers had gotten used to them being there, I suppose that if RTE had to pay SKY then they would both have to come to an agreement both could live with, as it would probably not benefit SKY to lose RTE they would not demand a fee RTE could not afford to pay. However it would be up to SKY to do as they please as they control access to the encryption system.

4. Most Irish viewers can already pick up UK terestrial channels and have done for many years, the appearance of these channels FTA on satellite will not have a huge effect on RTE as they have been competing with BBC1/2,ITV, C4 for years already. The main losers in that scenario will be ntl and chorus, the MMDS services would be hit worst.

Although most people in cable areas recieve RTE through the cable service, a vast majority would be able to recieve terestrial signals without much problem should they cancel the cable services. I would guess that less than 5% of the population are unable to recieve any terrestrial signal (I don't have the exact figures but they are probably available somewhere on the web)

5. There was not a huge problem with people unable to recieve RTE before they appeared on satellite, I don't imagine it will ever be a primary source for free TV. It is a usefull addition to cover bad reception areas but not a replacement for terrestrial.

Take a look at this website aimed at the advertising community, amongst other things of interest it shows the availability of all channels in Ireland. http://www.medialive.ie/