BBC goes FTA: Lobbying the minister.

jister

Todays Irish independent. He wil "encourage" the BBC to charge us. How does he propose to do it?

"may appear in the short term to be good for the consumer, but in the long term it will lead to job losses" Thats right boys, keep the monopolies intact.





COMMUNICATIONS Minister Dermot Ahern is to write to the British Government to raise concerns about the BBC's free digital service, which will go live in Ireland next week.

The Minister has also agreed to set up a strategy group to look at the issue after he met RTE, TV3, cable companies and the Telecoms and Internet Federation of IBEC last night.

The industry groups called on the Minister to encourage the BBC to charge Irish consumers for the free TV service which will offer BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three, BBC Four, BBC Parliament, News 24 and two children's channels, which can picked up by erecting a suitable receiver on the roof. Cable companies NTL and Chorus have been angered by the development because they have to pay for the right to carry BBC channels at present.

Tommy McCabe, director of the Telecoms and Internet Federation, called for Minister Ahern to lobby the British government to encourage the BBC to introduce a charge on the service. Mr McCabe said the service "may appear in the short term to be good for the consumer, but in the long term it will lead to job losses". He said it would not lead to any benefits for the Irish economy and would deprive consumers of choice.

jister

Theres more....

BBC will offer 'free' digital TV service here




He added it would seriously undermine the scope for an Irish digital terrestrial platform.

It is understood that Government officials also have concerns about the effect of the development on Ireland's proposals for a digital terrestrial platform. But last night a spokesman for the BBC said: "The BBC is not launching a free service but is simply making its service available unencrypted.

"BBC One and BBC Two have been available in the majority of Irish homes for a number of years as well as another 70 non-BBC free to air channels with no impact. The BBC also has no intention of acquiring Irish rights, and will not compete with Irish broadcasters for rights.

"Therefore we believe that broadcasting our services in the clear will have little or no impact on the Irish market," he added.

Tony

Originally posted by jister

Cable companies NTL and Chorus have been angered by the development because they have to pay for the right to carry BBC channels at present.

Angry indeed, they did not pay anything for years to BBC etc until taken to court by them.

Thre is no way BBC can charge while it is unencrypted, complete waste of taxpayers money trying to get them to do otherwise.

Tony

JDxtra

Just shows how little they actually know about the subject! How on earth would they propose to make people pay a charge for the service considering it's FTA!!? A very poorly researched reply there from Minister Dermot Ahern.

Icehouse

Originally posted by jdempsey
Just shows how little they actually know about the subject! How on earth would they propose to make people pay a charge for the service considering it's FTA!!? A very poorly researched reply there from Minister Dermot Ahern.

The Government if they wanted to could collect a sat-dish tax and pass some of the money to the BBC. everyone with a dish would have to pay it. This is just an example. not that complicated really.

JDxtra

...and then right after that they would introduce a fresh air tax.

Genghis

Ahern is leading a delegation to visit the BBC - presumably so they can explain it to him v e r y s l o w l y .

His approach should be:

1. Ask the BBC to no longer charge the cablecos and Sky for their channels.

2. Make sure that the cablecos and Sky implement a resulting decrease in subscription.

3. Encourage the cablecos and Sky to offer the full channel line-up (not simply via 'other channels' either)

4. Begin discussions with BBC and the UK channels about the possibility of an agreement that would allow the Irish terrestrials follow a similar course - there has to be creative ways that would work for both - joint bids for rights, screening time agreements, etc, etc. As well as opportunities for all organisations to benefit from new opportunities.

That course of action might 'create' jobs, not try to save them, and would be in the interests of all consumers - short, medium and long-term.

Richard

Originally posted by jdempsey
Just shows how little they actually know about the subject! How on earth would they propose to make people pay a charge for the service considering it's FTA!!?

I imagine that Sky will continue to pay the BBC something for BBC ONE and TWO to be in the EPG.

But there is no way to charge viewers who don't subscribe.

If the ROI Govt put a levy on all satellite dishes, however, then they could make some money for themselves (or to give to RTE).

Meanwhile Dermot Ahern is leading a delegation to the Vatican, to find out whether or not the Pope is a Catholic.



A close tie-up between RTE and the BBC would be interesting, though given the former has advertising and the latter doesn't, I'm not sure how far they'd actually be able to go.

Icehouse

Originally posted by Richard


A close tie-up between RTE and the BBC would be interesting, though given the former has advertising and the latter doesn't, I'm not sure how far they'd actually be able to go.

Why would advertising be a problem? The agreement with the Beeb could just be with regards to buying/sharing certain broadcast rights in the British isles - they're hardly going to merge, which would be tantamount to our national broadcaster for all her sins ceasing to exist (however appealing the thought may be

dmeehan

if they were to broadcast "stuff" at the same time, it would finish earlier on the beeb and for films and the like if you had to choice to watch the same thing without adds (and broadcast in widescreen), which would you pick?

jister

"which can picked up by erecting a suitable receiver on the roof"

Maybe I am reading too much into it but is this journalist even sure what he is talking about? Sounds to me like he doesn't know for sure whether its freeview, satellite or MMDS so he put in a vague description of the receiving device. This is why I don't buy newspapers.

channelsurfer

its just sour grapes on behalf of chorus etc because they dont want to offer bbc3 etc max profit min channels is there motto how on earth can they prevent it after all the bbc is not targeted at irish audiences. if the itc in england didnt object then how can the irish gov in

Icehouse

Can someone please confirm or deny that Channel has today been removed from ALL FTV cards?

Newsgroups: uk.tech.tv.sky,uk.media.tv.sky
From: Jim <Jim@Yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Press Release: UK PSB - 'We can not afford Free To Air DSAT' - 03/07/2003
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 13:36:20 +0100
Organization:

---

View header

>> I can report that Channel 4 has been removed from my NI registered FTV card.
>> Now displays the blue upgrade sreen!!!
>>
>> (I live in England by the way, got the card to allow me to see BBC 1
>> Northern Ireland)


(my comment above)

My card is a newly activated FTV (series 2) - yet, has just lost Channel 4
:-(

Genghis

In relation to how 'joint bidding' might work, I wouldn't neccessarily favour RTE simply bedding down with BBC - in effect you could end up with less choice that way (RTE = BBC ROI, TV3 = ITV IRL).

However, when the other terrestrials come on board, the 4 UK and 2 ROI broadcasters, along with S4C / TG4 etc could form a 'pool' whereby a national broadcaster on one side could choose to partner with a broadcaster from the other country. In other words, RTE decide they want to bid for Friends, then they might ask C4 to come on board, whereas for a particular movie, they would ask ITV or BBC, and for Home and Away, bid with C5.

The rules governing this arrangement would be:

1. All broadcasters agree that rights are now bid for on a regional basis first, and a national basis second.

2. All broadcasters in one jurisdiction planning to bid for rights would agree to give all other broadcasters in the other jurisdiction 'right to refusal' on partnering with them.

2. They may do this selectively - i.e. choose BBC first, if not, then ask ITV, then C5, then C4.

3. If a national broadcaster has asked all broadcasters in the other jurisdiction, and none are interested, then they may proceed alone.

4. By forfeiting your right to partner (i.e. by refusing to join a bid), you forfeit your right to complain at a later stage. So in the case of RTE approaching all UK terrestrials and all of them say 'no thanks', then none of these will be able to object at a later time that RTE are broadcasting to the UK. This also means that they will not bid against RTE for the period of their rights agreement.

5. In the case of a single broadcaster bidding for rights, they just pay for domestic audience (but in effect they get rights to the full terrritory since they know the national broadcasters in the other jurisdiction won't bid for rights).

6. In the case of a dual approach, the bid is for both jusrisdictions, submitted jointly, negotiated with the rights holder jointly, held jointly and paid for according to mutual agreement - taking account of native audience, screeening rights, negotiation etc..

7. In relation to broadcast times, there are many options available:

For example contra agreements:

- you show the new friends first, we show the new simpsons (or whatever - at the same time

Or agreements based on digital channels

- you get to show the new friends first, but only on your digital channel (whereas we'll show it on our prime channel)

Or agreements relating to time / audience / repeat rights

- you take the Monday early evening slot, we'll take Friday late night

Or agreements based on audience share

- with 250,000 viewers in ROI, vs our 2.5m viewers in the UK (ration 1:10), for the next 10 shows we buy together, we get first airing on nine of them.

Or agreements based on region

- Scotland has first showing, then ROI, then 'Rest of UK'. While there would be no blocking (i.e. you could still see it first on BBC Scotland no matter where you were in ROI / UK), the requirement to seek out a channel to do this would negate the value of this.

8. In addition, the broadcasters could even agree to revenue-share - i.e. OK, RTE you show Harry Potter first, but only if you agree to give us 20% of total ad revenue. In return we will pay you 20% of whatever revenue we get when we show it a week later (which would be considerably less).

9. The Rights could be regionalised - BBC Wales might do a deal with RTE, once all other broadcasters and the rest of the BBC network have refused. In this scenario RTE and BBC would jointly bid for ROI and Wales.



There would be plenty of opportunity for RTE in the above scenario:

1. Home programmes - lots of interest in Irish population - NI and expats in UK = lots of revenue. As RTE are rightsholders, they don't have to share rights with anyone, obviously.

2. RTE could pursue a strategy of finding new shows (which the UK channels may refuse - that way effectively get UK rights for the price of Irish rights). In particular, they could carve a niche of 'Irish-related' material.

3. Plenty of scope to win viewers with time-shifted slots

A final point: RTE should not necessarily fear situations where they have delayed rights for programmes. Assume that they lose 80% of the Irish market because BBC or whoever screen first (call it 200,000 'lost viewers' in ROI). However, they have the right to show the same episode a day or two later - perhaps at a better 'prime time'. If the same show attracts 200,000 viewers in Ireland, might attract 5m viewers in the UK. And if 20% of these missed the episode on BBC, bingo, RTE has an audience of 1m+ viewers - even though they conceded first viewing to the BBC, they still have 5 times as many viewers than they would have had if they only broadcast to ROI.

The opportunity for RTE / TV3 is much greater than the threat.

Richard

Interesting ideas, but....

Originally posted by Genghis
Scotland has first showing, then ROI, then 'Rest of UK'.

All Satellite viewers in the British Isles could watch it on BBC Scotland (if it were the BBC) first.

Also, would the UK broadcasters really be bothered with such a system? They are much more powerful than those in ROI, and surely this system would give them less flexibility, not more.

Genghis

Yeah they could tune in, but a lot of people wouldn't bother, in reality.

I don't agree that it gives them less flexibility - it gives them more freedom. They no longer have to worry about rights. In addition it would simply not be sustainable for UK viewers to choose to boradcast to ROI and not pay for rights to do so. Not only are they effectively negating the value of ROI rights for rightholders (who won't be pleased), they are also depriving TV3 and RTE from providing the best possible TV service, within budget. At some point RTE, or rightsholders, or the government or the EU or someone would kick up and potentially force encryption back on them.

Secondly, the partnership approach would allow UK channels to seek revenue in the Irish market legitimately, and so there is commercial opportunity (the only way they are ever going to increase their potential viewing population overnight by 10% short of re-colonisation) - and that 10% is considerably wealthier than the UK market (Irish GNP is something like 40% higher than UK, higher wages, more spend etc - look at the experience of British retailers - stores like M&S, Dixons etc sell more here per head of population than in UK).

The first point would be of interest to the BBC (moral argument), the second would be of interest to the others (the commercial argument).

BHG

> ...and then right after that they would introduce a fresh air tax.

mmm they have a dish tax in Drogheda, not from central gov but county council. They collect a tax and people pay but I know people who wont and think the tax is illegal.

fresh air, water, refuse, garda, fire and day light all due to be taxed of have service charge added. url]http://www.NoBinTax.info[/url

I read the TCM story from IBEC who want a talking shop
to discuss FreeSat. What I see as news worthy here is how scared they all are, get on with it, use the extra €47 on better
more compelling progs than Den v CBeeBies and BBC3 v Net2
etc. - invent innovate create talent from all corners not just D4.
Take them on at the game, TV broadcasting.

RTÉ will never have a BBC budget, but they can make progs that an Irish person will choose to watch before turning on the BBC, so if they get the Public service / Populous remit balance correct they should appeal to Irish people.

Asking the Beeb to charge us is evidence that they want the service to have least numerical impact, If I were chours / NTL I would look to data service over aging cable NOT ‘exclusive’ retransmission rights of what is going to be (in 7 days time) FTA.

OT: has anyone noticed clipping in the audio of BBC’s via analog NTL
has anyone noticed C4 freezing ala digital break up? via analog NTL

last Feb NTL analog was still pulling BBC analog from NI
ComReg said the 40%+ hike in NTL cost would improve signal, wait for the next blast of tropospheric ducting [tv snow] due around now during Wimbledon...

regards BHG

icdg

A big rant about todays story on what is turning out to be the monthly update of the ICDG website.

A few points...

* There's absolutely no way for the BBC to charge ROI viewers without using conditional access. Which negates the point of going FTA in the first place...

* I don't think the BBC makes its major policy decisions based on appeals by foreign politicans or trades bodies...

* The Ministers' stance has no benifit to Irish consumers other than the preserving of NTL and Chorus balance sheets. Neither is an Irish company by any strech of the imagination. INM is a minority shareholder in Chorus.

* NTL and Chorus should be defending themselves against this move by making improvements to their own product offering, not asking politicans to intervene.

As for this proposal by NTL and Chorus... well I'm not sure whether they are asking the government to subsidise their commercial pay-TV activities (a bad idea) or wanting the Government to create a Freeview type service via the platform (a good idea). That's a discussion for the Cable and MMDS forum though.

byte

Well summarised, Ronan!

BHG: Regarding C4 breakup, I had C4 breakup via my Scots card too. I am guessing that NTL now use digiboxes to receive the four UK terrestrial channels?

And I don't fancy the idea of a "dish tax" at all! If I remember correctly, didn't the UK Govt consider doing the same in UK but dropped the idea?

West Briton

Sent to joe.meleady@dcmnr.ie

Sir,

My family in Celbridge are former subscribers to the Chorus cable television
service.

After suffering from 1993 until 2001 a substandard service prone to outages,
especially over the Christmas period, we abandoned Chorus and I took out a
Sky Digital subscription. I pay more than we did for Chorus, but I am
completely happy with the service, as it is reliable and provides clear
pictures.

Due to rights reasons, we cannot receive UTV and Channel 4, but do receive
the four Irish channels and BBC 1/2 Northern Ireland.

BBC will have its full range of channels unencrypted from 10th July. This
means that I should be able to receive BBC 3 and 4, News 24 and their two
childrens channels.

However, over two years after abandoning Chorus, I now hear that they want
to either prevent me from receiving the additional BBC channels, or have
some form of charge levied on me because I had the nerve to abandon their
rubbish service.

Can the department tell me how on earth this makes any kind of sense?

Yours faithfully,

xxx xxxxx
xxx xxxxxx xxxx
Celbridge
Co. Kildare.

carrolls

However, over two years after abandoning Chorus, I now hear that they want
to either prevent me from receiving the additional BBC channels, or have
some form of charge levied on me because I had the nerve to abandon their
rubbish service.

I don't know where you are getting your info from West Briton.
The BBC are going to remove their encryption of all channels on the 10th.
This means anybody with a Digital satellite box can receive them.
This includes a Digibox at no extra charge.
You might have to add the BBC channels to 'Other Channels' to view them, or to remove the Irish card to view BBC Interactive Services. But they will be free.
If the Irish Government levy a charge on BBC viewing, abandon Sky, remove the Irish Sky card and watch for free.

DMC

Huh?

West Briton is perfectly clear here. In the article yesterday in the Indo, Chorus and NTL are lobbying the minister to get some form of encryption of the BBC channels on satellite or make these services chargeable. As we know, that wont be possible, yet these people are informing the minister that its his duty to do this for them.

So he is asking the question, why are they informing the minister with this horse****?

Tony

Originally posted by DMC
Huh?

West Briton is perfectly clear here. In the article yesterday in the Indo, Chorus and NTL are lobbying the minister to get some form of encryption of the BBC channels on satellite or make these services chargeable. As we know, that wont be possible, yet these people are informing the minister that its his duty to do this for them.

So he is asking the question, why are they informing the minister with this horse****?

Does anyone know the journalist's name, maybe I could talk to him and get some balance to this story? Also a full copy of the article would be handy.

Thanks
Tony

DMC

I'm going to spilt this thread anyway from BBC goes FTA thread.. make it distinct, cos I feel we'll be contacting DCMNR often!

DMC

Right, thats the housekeeping done.

If the minister doing the bidding for the cable cos, it deserves its own thread, the original article is there at the start of this thread, Tony.

Icehouse

Don't you feel the importance of this thread and this issue / the minister's power are being over-estimated? I do.

As a side-note, what are the justifiable reasons why those in overspill-areas such as you or I, should be allowed to watch BBC for free - you'll be asked for these reasons if you do have to argue a case with the minister.

BBC stations cost money to run/produce and are going to broadcast unscrambled but are in fact aiming only at those who have already paid for them via a licence fee. We'll pick them up by way of the fact that Astra 2D is not localised enough. We've been using FTV cards for quite some time, but it's akin to software piracy - we were never entitled to.

watty

Originally posted by Icehouse:
Can someone please confirm or deny that Channel has today been removed from ALL FTV cards?

No I can't confirm....
But it isn't unusual for a FTV card to lose one or more channels if it is not always in slot and box always on. "Missed keys".

In the past FTV cards have lost C4 or BBC1 and it comes back if card left in slot.

DMC

I do feel the thread is important, because there are people out there giving stupid information to our Communications minister.

Its up to us to point this out. How many times has there been crap reporting of the BBC's FTA plans in Irish papers. All this mis-information being supplied to the minister is the point we are at.

carrolls

Does anybody actually have a copy of the Indo article?

Icehouse

Originally posted by carrolls
Does anybody actually have a copy of the Indo article?

There ya go son...

http://www.unison.ie/business/stories.php3?ca=80&si=1003903

jister

Originally posted by Tony
Does anyone know the journalist's name, maybe I could talk to him and get some balance to this story? Also a full copy of the article would be handy.

Thanks
Tony

David Brady deputy business editor wrote the article. I clipped the article from the online paper yesterday, for some reason they had it split into 2 parts so I copied them over seperatelly.