Is it fair to call it 'Flat Rate'?

raeGten · 30-06-2003 2:36pm #1

I've mentioned this in a few threads already but rather than going off topic I thought I'd start a new thread.
UTVip refer to there new product as :
"UTVip
First Ever Flat Rate Internet Services throughout Ireland "
Esat refer to theirs as:
"Ireland's first flat rate internet package, providing you with dial up access to the Internet for a flat monthly charge"

Leaving aside the viability of a 24/7 dial up service - is it fair or accurate for these companies to refer to their products as flate rate. I realise that they are based on FRIACO but that is a wholesale flat rate product. The public still have to pay extra if they exceed the (however generous) time limit.

Does anyone else think that this is innacurate advertising?

SkepticOne · 30-06-2003 2:42pm

What I would call them is partially metered products since the metering only kicks in after a number of hours. They are still an improvement on what has gone before, particularly if you need day time access.

raeGten · 30-06-2003 2:50pm

That sounds like a faif description. But surely they can't actually use the words 'flate rate' in their ads. That must go against advertising standards.

eth0_ · 30-06-2003 4:04pm

Originally posted by raeGten
That sounds like a faif description. But surely they can't actually use the words 'flate rate' in their ads. That must go against advertising standards.

Sigh...no it doesn't.
It's a flat rate charged for a certain amount of hours.
If they used the term 'always on', then it would be false advertising.

flav0rflav · 30-06-2003 4:10pm

Flat-rate? No.

But it's about as flat as it can be, given current circumstances.

Having said that eircom have just gotten slammed by the advertising standards people for describing broadband as flat rate in their current ads. (Although I may be paraphrase the problem away). See ENN.

SkepticOne · 30-06-2003 4:18pm

I think rather than complain to the ASAI, our energies need to turn now to the broadband situation which is far more suited to long duration use.

While broadband is available to only a fraction of the population, too many heavy users are forced on to the 56k and ISDN system which is one of the reasons that FRIACO will only lead to partial flat rate in Ireland.

Zombrex · 30-06-2003 5:39pm

It is Flat-Rate as in anytime you connect you pay the same flat rate.

What it is not is UNLIMITED flat-rate, which quite a few news agencies (RTE for one) have been reporting it as.

In England and the US, where they don't have Eircom, they have Unlimited Flat-Rate internet.

Being in the Republic of Eirco....sorry Ireland, we have Limited Flat-Rate internet, because after all Eircom don't make enought money and we should be greatfull that Eircom let us have our phones and use their network in the first place.

...sigh...

brian_ire · 30-06-2003 5:51pm

in fairness both compaines do make it pretty clear that the package is only for 180hrs. the same cannot be said for broadband packages where you have to read the fine print to discover that there is a cap. i dunno if you have read eircom's press release on FRIACO but they claim they are selling it (wholesale) at the cheapest rate in europe. So wait if other countries are providing unlimited flat rate dial up, and ireland's wholesale rate is the cheapest in europe then why don't we have unlimited flat rate or the cheapest flat rate in europe???????

brian

eth0_ · 30-06-2003 7:20pm

Originally posted by Wicknight
It is Flat-Rate as in anytime you connect you pay the same flat rate.

What it is not is UNLIMITED flat-rate, which quite a few news agencies (RTE for one) have been reporting it as.

That's called bad journalism, I don't consider that the fault of the telco's who make is pretty clear how many hours you get on FRIACO...

sceptre · 30-06-2003 7:36pm

"All you can eat for a tenner" is not the same thing as "All you can eat up to ten pizzas for a tenner", even if 10 pizzas is more than most users will eat.

It's a reduced-rate 180 hour deal.

Eurorunner · 30-06-2003 8:13pm

TBH, i dont understand how this could stand up legally. Anybody from any other developed country would laugh at this particular use of the term...i'm finding that this is the benchmark (refer to standard abroad) for most things since i moved back home.....people are being brainwashed with the notion that a substandard service/product is the standard on numerous fronts..:rolleyes:

Dawg · 30-06-2003 8:28pm

I'm presuming that once you use up your 180 hours on UTV, you can no longer connect to the regular number for the rest of that month, and as such are blocked from incurring any extra costs. Obviously, if you still need net access you can dial up to a PAYG number (UTV's or another ISP) but thats an entirely different service your connecting to.

So really it is a flat rate your paying for the 180 hour service. Anything over that is optional. I don't see it as innacurate advertising.

My 2 cents anyway.

Urban Weigl · 30-06-2003 8:33pm

All the packages currently available offer "partial flat rate" or "pre-paid hours", rather than true "flat rate" access to the Internet.

Rags · 01-07-2003 7:04am

I'm presuming that once you use up your 180 hours on UTV, you can no longer connect to the regular number for the rest of that month, and as such are blocked from incurring any extra costs. Obviously, if you still need net access you can dial up to a PAYG number (UTV's or another ISP) but thats an entirely different service your connecting to.

Na after you go over the 180hours on both esat and utv you can still use them for as long as you like BUT after 180hr you will get charged the normal peak time or offpeak rates.

Dawg · 01-07-2003 12:59pm

well, thats what I get for presuming...

I was basing it on when I worked support for BTOpenworld. If Anytime users went over 150 hours they were kicked off the Anytime number for the rest of the month, same with the surftime package (120 hours if I remember correctly). We would have to set them up with a PAYG dun connection if they still needed access until their hours were reset.

eth0_ · 02-07-2003 8:17am

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
All the packages currently available offer "partial flat rate" or "pre-paid hours", rather than true "flat rate" access to the Internet.

Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

raeGten · 02-07-2003 2:48pm

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

I think both the terms are pretty self explanatory. That's the problem.
Flate rate means whatever happens you will only pay THIS price. In the case of Internet access that would mean that whether you use 50 minutes or 50 hours or a full 30 days you should still be charged the same price.
I realise the companies are being clear about the limits they have put on their offerings but I don't see how they can call them flate rate.
Why not ask somebody who hasn't a clue about computers or internet access what they think a flat rate fee for a service would mean to them. DOn't even mention Eircom or Friaco. My guess is they'd agree with my deffinition.

raeGten · 02-07-2003 3:09pm

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

I think both the terms are pretty self explanatory. That's the problem.
Flate rate means whatever happens you will only pay THIS price. In the case of Internet access that would mean that whether you use 50 minutes or 50 hours or a full 30 days you should still be charged the same price.
I realise the companies are being clear about the limits they have put on their offerings but I don't see how they can call them flate rate.
Why not ask somebody who hasn't a clue about computers or internet access what they think a flat rate fee for a service would mean to them. DOn't even mention Eircom or Friaco. My guess is they'd agree with my deffinition.

Eurorunner · 02-07-2003 4:08pm

Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

Lets face it, standards are not set in this country. If you look at the 'flat rate' products provided abroad, you will see that for the most part, flat rate IS unlimited (not always on - no dialup product in the world is, but unlimited).

Now, do we have to have 'special' standards in this country to accomodate inadequate service??

bealtine · 05-07-2003 2:17pm

Personally I think describing it as "flat rate" is misleading in the extreme.

Its a metered service that you pay through the nose for once you go over your alloted time. Now wheres the surprise in that?

Also when ordinary people here flat rate I believe they instantly think flat rate e.g "I pay X and dont have to pay anymore money"
which of course is patent nonsense

Urban Weigl · 05-07-2003 5:14pm

Originally posted by eth0_
Again you're confusing "flat-rate" with "always on"

So in your opinion, 181 hours a month is always on now? Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.

bizmark · 05-07-2003 8:29pm

from what i seen from a few BT ad,s for england they give you 150 hour,s for 15 ,99 (pounds) and call it flat rate

but it is in terms a flat rate you get a fixed amount of hour,s for A flat price that wont change

Urban Weigl · 05-07-2003 8:51pm

Most ISP's in the UK do not limit you in this way, and at least with the BT UK offering you are not billed without your knowledge.

I guess "180 hour flat rate" would be more appropriate, as these packages do not offer "flat rate" access on a monthly basis.

BoneCollector · 05-07-2003 8:59pm

Okay lets try clear this up eh>?

flat-rate

Definition:

FLAT RATE:
a Service you make a single payment for usage of.

SERVICE:
A product or business provided within limits (specified in terms and conditions of contract.

FRIACO
A term used to refer to an any time internet service for which cost is as little as possible and removes the burden of clock watching between peak and off peak times of usage.

ALWAYS ON:
A Term used to discribe a service which is advertised as 24/7 and can be used 24/hrs a day 7 days a week for a single payment..
closest to this is broad band for which you pay a flat rate for 24/7 access with a download cap.

Hope this clears this thing up once and for all... lads!

Capt'n Midnight · 05-07-2003 10:47pm

It's prepaid phone calls - non tansferable and non-refundable.

You pays your money - and if you don't use your hours they win.
If you use all your hours or go over they don't loose.

And Eircom are really upset 'cos while they are making money all the time - it's just not as much as they would like.

We're back to "no-limits" - except there are limits...

Anyway better giving your money to UTV than one of the Foreign owned telco's... might cause them to drop the price to cost of provision and an honest profit...

eth0_ · 05-07-2003 11:49pm

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
So in your opinion, 181 hours a month is always on now? Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.

Erm...no....*you are*.

Urban Weigl · 06-07-2003 1:10am

Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.

I am always on internet access now? :rolleyes:

Why do you keep insisting that proper flat rate internet access is impossible in Ireland though? You know perfectly well that in many countries it is being provided right now and has been for many years. Is a different type of copper being used in Ireland that I had never heard about before, or are we somehow too stupid to implement such a service?

sceptre · 06-07-2003 1:12am

Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.

/sceptre awakens from slumber

Er, what?

ColinM · 06-07-2003 2:52am

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Geez, with logic like that, no wonder infrastructure in this country is in such a state.
Originally posted by eth0_
Erm...no....*you are*.
Originally posted by Urban Weigl
I am always on internet access now?
Originally posted by sceptre
Er, what?

No, I'm pretty sure she means you are "in a state". Maybe I'm wrong though - I'll be fairly embarassed if you actually do turn out to be always on Internet access.

(Eth0, you seem to be always sighing in exasperation at other posters these days. You seem real tetchy if you don't mind my sayin'. I haven't noticed Mercury Tilt flirtin' with you for a while now. Could this have somethin to do with it!?)

ColinM · 06-07-2003 3:14am

well, it's all just semantics really, isn't it. Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing. I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO, and I don't see that there really is much progress to make with it. Far more important to concentrate on now is the need for everybody in this country to be able to avail of broadband from a choice of at least 2 competing suppliers.

If the 180hr flat rate packagte isn't enough for you, you need broadband. Of course, the fact that you can't get it is not the fault of FRIACO!

drjolt · 06-07-2003 7:30pm

Originally posted by ColinM
well, it's all just semantics really, isn't it. Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing.

The only thing wrong with them is that they don't do exactly what it says on the tin.

I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO,

Well, it is if people decide they're happy with what they now have, and make apologies for comreg so they can claim success. Which in fairness is what's happening.

bealtine · 06-07-2003 7:38pm

quote:
quote:

I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO,

Well, it is if people decide they're happy with what they now have, and make apologies for comreg so they can claim success. Which in fairness is what's happening

I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the
EU likely to put an oar in and when people realize what they are buying inot is really "metered access with a new shiny coat"
They will start demanding more.

Many posters say broadband is the answer...in my case I'll be old
and gray by the time they roll out bb around here and we are less than 30 miles from the city centre.

Urban Weigl · 06-07-2003 7:48pm

Originally posted by ColinM
Whatever your interpretation of flat-rate is, these products are a good thing. I think the battle is over with regard to FRIACO...

I agree with you completely that these new "flat rate"-type deals are a good thing, there can be no doubt about that. However, it is all relative.

For instance, relative to no internet access being available in the state at all, being able to connect to the internet for even 1 euro a minute would be an improvement on how things were before. Just something to think about.

PS: Personally, I do not see why anyone should use dialup. It does not matter whether you use the internet for 1, 10 or 100 hours a month -- it should be possible at broadband speeds (life is too short to wait for pages to download). This is beginning to happen in France for example, where many new users are leapfrogging dialup and jumping directly onto broadband. As such, I do not think that dial up internet access should even be available, but until we get 100% broadband coverage at affordable rates (packages beginning at under 20 euros a month), we'll need it unfortunately, which is why we need proper unmetered dialup access.

eth0_ · 06-07-2003 8:07pm

Originally posted by ColinM

(Eth0, you seem to be always sighing in exasperation at other posters these days. You seem real tetchy if you don't mind my sayin'. I haven't noticed Mercury Tilt flirtin' with you for a while now. Could this have somethin to do with it!?)

The internet makes me feel sad

BoneCollector · 06-07-2003 8:40pm

I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the EU likely to put an oar in and when people realize what they are buying inot is really "metered access with a new shiny coat"

yes but with 2 Major and important difference`s

1) its cheaper that normal dial up
2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

I think these are major achievements for anyone! that wants to use the internet without the bother of watching what time of day it is and worrying about the acumilating costs that would normaly hit them when they receive there phone bill of €250+ which has been now reduced to something respectable like.. say.. €80.

bealtine · 06-07-2003 10:18pm

quote:

I suspect the real battle may just be beginning...What with the

1) its cheaper that normal dial up
2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

Maybe...but the "overrun" thing has yet to be determined.
So if you go over your alloted hours you start into the realms
of completely mad money per hour. I believe UTV will charge
3.8c per minute. This is where the problems start and we are back
to clock watching again.
All this FRIACO stuff was supposed to get rid of the clock watching...
which it hasn't done at all.

Things are a bit better than before but not a lot after your 180 hours it becomes unrealistic to start surfing...
FWIW 180 hours isn't a lot if you are doing say web design or
remote administration of computers or whatever makes for variable hours on the net.

Like I said broadband is many many years away for the vast majority of Irish users (contrary to what the OLO's would like us
to believe)

Only 10% of exchanges are ever likely to be DSL enabled.
Currently we have a target of 100 exchanges by Sept 2004.
There are 10,000 exchanges or so in the country.

OHP · 06-07-2003 10:40pm

Flat rate to me = You give a person admission / allowance / access to something for a Flat Rate. Time does not come in to it unless you state a time like 24/7

OHP

BoneCollector · 06-07-2003 11:42pm

Maybe...but the "overrun" thing has yet to be determined.
So if you go over your alloted hours you start into the realms
of completely mad money per hour.

Why state the obvious? as if its a revelation?
your paying for a product that clearly states what you are buying..
a block package of 180 hrs.
How you use it is upto you..

@ some stage utv may introduce a high usage package, but again your going to pay for what you get and will have to use it within the limits of the package.

The market, once stimulated, will determin how these packages develope, and of course dont for get the real! bottle neck in the system. errcom!

Mork · 07-07-2003 6:34am

Bascially it boils down to this...

UTVi = Good

€ircon = Bad

raeGten · 07-07-2003 9:27am

There's only two ways I can see these products as flat rate:
1/ If you pay a fixed price each month for unlimited access.
or
2/ If you pay a fixed price per minute regardless of the time of day or day of the week.

Now neither of the products available on the market at the moment meet these criteria. I'm not knocking them....they're deffinately an improvement over what was there before. But when everybody was asking for flat rate internet access....this isn't what I pictured. It's a bit dissapointing and I don't think they should be allowed to use the phrase 'flat rate' in their ads.

bealtine · 07-07-2003 9:48am

quote

2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

Why state the obvious? as if its a revelation?
your paying for a product that clearly states what you are buying..
a block package of 180 hrs.
How you use it is upto you..

I was simply responding to a number of misconceptions (as I see them).

Point 2 as quoted above is simply not correct.

BoneCollector · 07-07-2003 10:06pm

Point 2 as quoted above is simply not correct

Explain your logic?

bealtine · 07-07-2003 10:56pm

quote

2) MOST IMPORTANT!! You can log on the internet peak and off-peak without incurring any extra cost for the 1st time in years.

You can log on until you run out of pre-bought time then acc
to UTV you start paying 3.8c per min.
Acc to Esat you will be cut off until the next month.
(This is not confirmed as they are not sure how overruns will be dealt with)

The original purpose of this escapade was to end that "clock watching feeling". No you need keep one eye on the hour meter
and another on the bill.

Now this is a far better situation than watching the $$ roll up every time you reply to an email or browse your fav website.

With this kind of attitude one will need to buy a "lite user"
block to keep in reserve...just in case or go back to paying through the nose.

For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
weighing in at a mere 600M or a service pack which weighs in about the same.(Havent acutally checked the sizes recently but you get the picture). That will take a huge chunk out of your prepaid block. What do you do then?

And yes the problem is still eircom:)

BoneCollector · 08-07-2003 10:24pm

For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
weighing in at a mere 600M or a service pack which weighs in about the same.(Havent acutally checked the sizes recently but you get the picture). That will take a huge chunk out of your prepaid block. What do you do then?

Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..
if your gonna be doing that kind of downloading you need some form of broadband download to make it realistic..
trying to streatch dialup to accomodate such large downloads is not being realistic.

bealtine · 08-07-2003 10:52pm

quote:

For instance if one were to d/l the latest platform SDK from MS
--
Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..
if your gonna be doing that kind of downloading you need some form of broadband download to make it realistic..
trying to streatch dialup to accomodate such large downloads is not being realistic

Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup, my only other choice is
a leased line which is not realistic at all given the silly charges
involved. No satellite and anyway a leased line would be better:(

I'll be dead by the time errcom roll out anything round here.
(less than 30 miles from Dublin city centre)

So as you can see I'm stuck with my crappy isdn until
"hell freezes over" I suppose.

drjolt · 09-07-2003 7:37am

Originally posted by BoneCollector
Yeah thats call "heavy usage" which is not what dialup is intended for..

Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?

bk · 09-07-2003 1:14pm

Originally posted by drjolt
Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?

He is right, any telco engineer (including ones who are friendly to our cause) will tell you that the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage.

PSTN is a circut switched network which means when you connect to the netweork you get a dedicated connection to a port. Since there are limited number of ports and if people are connected to the ports for a long length of time, then you will eventually run out of ports and people are going to get engaged tones.

On the other hand broadband technologies such as ADSL use an always on, packet based network, which makes far more efficient use of the network.

bealtine · 09-07-2003 1:24pm

quote:

Originally posted by drjolt
Who told you that? Most of this rollocks comes from the telcos. Why listen to them?

He is right, any telco engineer (including ones who are friendly to our cause) will tell you that the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage.

Thats all very nice and well I happen to agree but while PSTN
is the only viable way to access the internet we still have to
live with it and use it to d/l stuff.

bk · 09-07-2003 1:32pm

Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup,
<cut>

I'll be dead by the time errcom roll out anything round here.
(less than 30 miles from Dublin city centre)

So as you can see I'm stuck with my crappy isdn until
"hell freezes over" I suppose.

As others have said the PSTN network simply isn't designed for this sort of usage. You can kick, scream and complain all you want, but you just can't change the technical reality of the situation.

You should be using bb full stop.

Therefore you shouldn't be putting your energy into complaining about the FRIACO products (it just won't make any difference), instead put your energy into getting broadband.

If you are only 30 miles from Dublin, then there is no reason to think that you won't be able to get bb in the near future. BB is being rolled out all over the country, even in God forsaken places like Donegal

Why don't you try setting up a broadband4?.com site and campaign, get loads of your neighbours to sign up and then approach Eircom and the wireless companies. If they see there is a market base there then they are more likely to rollout bb in your area.

Or why not go annoy your local politician about getting bb in your local area. Your local council might get a clue and set up some sort of community wireless project.

There are loads of things you can do to try and get BB in your area. Don't just whine about the lack of BB, do something about it.

It is time that we all forget about FRIACO, it is great that we have it and it is 100% necessary as a stepping stone to BB. However it is old technology.

It is now time that we all turn our attention to getting affordable broadband for ALL.

bealtine · 09-07-2003 2:00pm

quote:

Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

Like I said earlier, I'm tied to dialup,

Why don't you try setting up a broadband4?.com site and campaign, get loads of your neighbours to sign up and then approach Eircom and the wireless companies. If they see there is a market base there then they are more likely to rollout bb in your area.

Or why not go annoy your local politician about getting bb in your local area. Your local council might get a clue and set up some sort of community wireless project.

There are loads of things you can do to try and get BB in your area. Don't just whine about the lack of BB, do something about it.

We've done all that. We've talked to the minister. We've plauged
Comreg and all the local politicians.

The answer from errcom is still "F*ck you"

The answer from the wireless companies is "f*ck off" but a little bit more politely.

So why else do you think I'm "whining" as you so politely call it.

So I will be stuck with ****ty isdn dialup forever.

Welcome to the e-arsehole of the world.

bk · 09-07-2003 2:42pm

Originally posted by bealtine
quote:

We've done all that. We've talked to the minister. We've plauged
Comreg and all the local politicians.

The answer from errcom is still "F*ck you"

The answer from the wireless companies is "f*ck off" but a little bit more politely.

So why else do you think I'm "whining" as you so politely call it.

So I will be stuck with ****ty isdn dialup forever.

Welcome to the e-arsehole of the world.

What do you mean by we have? Unless your a reincarnation, you've only been on boards since June and posted a measly few times.

What great work have you done for IOFFL?

Since you have appeared on boards you have done nothing but complain about FRIACO and frankly it just doesn't help. We need positive action and input, complaining is not going to get us anywhere.

You are right the IOFFL committee and some very active IOFFL members have spoken to the government, minister, tds, on radio and tv, comreg, Eircom, etc. and from talking to these IOFFL people they are generally speaking are very happy with what they have achieved over the last few months. Namely:

1) FRIACO
2) Cheaper DSL
3) Some great USO submissions and presentations to the Government.
4) Increased awareness of IOFFL and the issues amongst the government and public.

BB isn't just going to appear over the country overnight, it just isn't going to happen.
The wireless companies are going to rollout all over the place, it just takes time.

What IOFFL need to do (and I believe are doing) is to do everything possible to help support and promote the growing wireless industry, as the wireless industry grows Eircom will have no choice but to compete or die.

And where Eircom won't compete, the gap will probably be filled by wireless technology (such as ComReg's idea for 384/64 wireless broadband over the GSM network in rural areas, in the next USO).

So bealtine, tell us all how you are going to help IOFFL achieve its goals?

Is it fair to call it 'Flat Rate'?

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