UTV and Eircom announce flat rate internet moves (RTE)

MDR

from RTE.ie

UTV steals the march on the competition .... AGAIN .....

Two companies have announced their intention to launch flat rate internet access, or FRIACO, products on Friday.

Eircom says it will launch a wholesale product on Friday, which will allow its retail division, as well as other operators, to launch flat rate internet access products. The wholesale rate will be €14,780 per port per year.

The company says its retail division will 'shortly' announce details of packages for residential and business users

UTV Internet has also announced two new flat rate internet access products, which will be available from Friday.

The company says both are available throughout Ireland to residential and business users and include all call charges.

UTVip Lite offers 30 hours internet access per month for €9.99 a month, while UTVip XL gives at least 180 hours access for €24.95 a month.

Today's moves coincide with regulatory initiatives which clear the way for flat rate, or FRIACO, services in Ireland.

Giblet

180 hours isn't great especially seen as we have to take a telephony package too.
I was expecting 300 hours.

MDR

6 hours a day isn't enough ?

fair enough ....

sounds like you really need broadband (I assume you can't get it)

Mr_Man

A little disappointing in that Scott had been talking about 300 hours when asking for feedback earlier.

M

P.S. For existing UTVip users there will be an email later to-day asking if you want to migrate to the new offering.

shinzon

Why is it that martin utv et all come in here looking for feedback on what the consumer wants, we give it to them them basically **** on us all and go and do whatever they want anyway, whats the point of feedback if ye dont take it.

Sorry but again this is another example of UTV getting peoples hopes up and dashing them to bits.

So lets roll on the arguments that UTV are gods, at least they interact with us BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH


Regards

Shin

gandalf

180 hours is fine for dial up use.

If you need more then broadband is the way to go tbh. As for whinging about taking the telephony as well so what if its saving you money, jesus lads your whinging now just for teh sake of it.

Gandalf.

Mr_Man

180 Hours may be fine for some people but there are other heavy users who find it a limitation. As for broadband, of course I would take it in a shot - if it was available - but its not.

The fact that you pay 3.6c per minute if you exceed the 180 hours (for peak time) is also a pain. I agree that UTV have asked for our views seem to have ignored them, and followed the party line just like the other drones ESAT and Eircom.

M.

Scruff

[whinge]
dont ye mean:
180 hrs is fine for dial up use.
If you need more then broadband is the way to go.
Unless that is you are going to download more than 5gb\month then ye'll have to pay even more dosh to get a buisness package.
(Presuming ure not a warez monkey cause then ure just a bollix cause only warez monkeys would download more than 5gb a month)
[/whinge]
(not directed at anyone, 180 hrs will probably be enough for me but...)

theciscokid

i thought flat rate... was day and night for a fixed fee?

bk

UTVip have updated their website with details of their new flat rate (FRIACO) based services

See Here For Details

Details:

UTVip XL - 180 hours per month for EUR 24.95
UTVip LITE - 30 hours per month for EUR 9.99

You will be charged standard UTV call rates if you go over the limit.

You must also take UTVip's CPS telephone service with these products (not really a problem, it has very good prices).

It only supports single channel (64K) ISDN

theciscokid

already a thread about it :eek:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102527

PiE

Does seem a bit low tbh...

"...while UTVip XL gives at least 180 hours access for €24.95 a month."

Doesn't say that on utv website. If I wasn't getting DSL next week I'd be majorly miffed. Then again, €24.95 is probably cheaper than the others will be.

Lemming

Originally posted by theciscokid
i thought flat rate... was day and night for a fixed fee?

Yes. You can connect at any time day or night for the monthly fee that you are paying.

But I'd like to just add to this by saying that this does NOT mean that you can stay connected to it 24/7. There is a WILDLY large difference between what 24/7 always-on and 24/7 flat-rate means.

A lot of people don't seem to realise this "minor" little fact and expect to be able to leave a dial-up connection on 24/7 which is neither practical nor feasible in any sort of term planning.

bk

I'd just like to say to Malcolm and all the other folk at UTVip, congratulations.

While I know some ppl will have a few problems with the service (180 hours not being enough, single channel ISDN only and bundled CPS), I think for the most part these products are very well priced and will attract a lot of users. The XL product is EUR 5 less then I expected and the EUR 10 product is brilliant, I know many light users who will love this.

I hope UVTip will make CDs for this and it would be cool if you could distribute them through the likes of Tesco, Xtra Vision and Dell. You would get loads of customers that way.

Just a few points UTVip might take on board.:

1) Not enough hours.

For people who will complain about 180 hours not being enough, perhaps you could have some sort of top up subscription. For example:

For an extra EUR 5 - 10 per month you can get X extra hours per month.

This could apply to both your LITE and XL packages. A bit like the daytime top up package you had. This wouuld give people maximum flexibility.

2) No Dual Channel ISDN

It would be great if you could look into this again. Perhaps you could charge one channel at normal call rates and the other channel as part of the 180 hours.

Or perhaps dual channel could use double the amount of time (from the 180 hours) when used.

3) Usage meter

It would be a good idea if you could have somewhere on your website where customers could check how many hours they have been on so far this month.

BTW Malcolm, I couldn't find anywhere on your website, that has details about your standard internet service that supports dual channel ISDN, perhaps you could update the sight with setup details etc. I hate having to use Esat or Eircom when I set people up for internet access.

Cheers,
Brian

Tellox

Im actually dissapointed,I was expecting a real flat rate internet on the 25th.

Luckily though,I have DSL

raeGten

I'm one of those people who thought that 'flate rate' meant 24/7....not'always on though. But in all fairness how can you call something 'flate rate' and then tag on an additional charge if you exceed a certain limit. I mean, hasn't this kind of offer already been available from a number of ISPs? Maybe the Friaco offers that are coming out now are cheaper but flate rate should mean that you pay one price regardless of how long you stay on....it's a flat rate.
Couldn't you say that the ordinary dial up connections are available at a flate rate of 3 cents for one minute - but if you exceed your allocated one minute you will be charged an additional fee of 3 cents for every minute?
I don't get it.

bk

Originally posted by Tellox
Im actually dissapointed,I was expecting a real flat rate internet on the 25th.

There is no such thing as real flat rate internet on dialup based services. Even in the UK they kick off heavy users, UTVip are just being up front about it. You won't ever be kicked off (like nolimits) you will just be charged for extra use, fair enough.

Lemming

Originally posted by raeGten
I'm one of those people who thought that 'flate rate' meant 24/7....not'always on though. But in all fairness how can you call something 'flate rate' and then tag on an additional charge if you exceed a certain limit.

Ok, let me elaborate further. You are getting a 24/7 service. It's just not a constantly connected 24/7 service, but the ability to connect during 24/7. So it is actually cheaper since it does away with the notion of on-peak, off-peak.

Dial-up internet access uses a telephone line. It's as simple as that. You are sharing 'x' number of phone ports with 'x by x' number of people. When you connect (or even make a normal voice call for that matter) you are using one of those phone ports. Nobody else can use it, unlike broadband where 'x' number of users are sharing a connection of 'n' size. 24/7 always-on dial-up just isn't feasible since it wasn't designed to be used in such a fashion.

At some time to flat-rate (not just internet connectivity) there has to be a point at which a line is drawn before the seller starts making losses across the board. With internet connectivity, there's usually a practice where the light users are subsidising the heavy users. But what happens if those light users start to become moderate users? Bandwidth costs money somewhere.

raeGten

Originally posted by Lemming
At some time to flat-rate (not just internet connectivity) there has to be a point at which a line is drawn before the seller starts making losses across the board.

That makes sense. I'm not really saying that they should offer the service for unlimited access 24/7 though. What bothers me is that they call it flate rate. It isn't a flate rate that you pay. and the fact that there's broadband services available (in places) that offer 24/7 access with no caps at a flate rate just makes it all the more confusing to the public.
I realise that the phone companies may not be able to offer a true flat rate service - but if they can't offer flat rate they shouldn't say they can.

SkepticOne

They should not be called flat rate strictly speaking, but they are very significant for other reasons.

UTV's product pretty much puts an upper limit on the amount a small business will spend on internet access during the otherwise crippling peak time.

While, there have been reports in the past about small companies running up bills of hundreds of euros on this very forum, the worst effect of per-minute billing has been that businesses have been deterred from using the internet for all but essential items like email. If the number of working days in a month is around 21, this will give businesses the ability to stay on, if needed, up to 9 hours a day. More importantly, it means that once they have paid their 24 euros, they no longer need to worry about internet phone bills even if most of them never use this amount of hours.

This is very significant and will have an impact on Ireland's economy. Arguably more of an impact than last years' introduction of the 100+ euro broadband because now, without any change of equipment, they can sign up for as much internet access as they are likely need. Most small businesses are conservative and need to see the benefits before forking out money.

Ultimately, broadband is the future. It is the technically correct way to access the internet, but people need to experience the internet first (as opposed to just downloading email) for them to make the jump. These FRIACO services will do more to enable this to happen than any amount of 'raising awareness' campaigns that might otherwise need to be undertaken.

MDR

realise that the phone companies may not be able to offer a true flat rate service - but if they can't offer flat rate they shouldn't say they can.

Thats a fair point, UTV's website is a little cryptic on this issue, they could use modifing it a little before someone complains to the consumer authority ...

They will all claim flat-rate access, and then in the t&c small print cap the number of hours. UTVIP is no different in this respect, has better pricing and service.

pete

To be honest, while this is progress it's not quite the quantum leap i'd been expecting from FRIACO.

The bottom line is that for €5 less per month I get 30 hours more online time.... the fact that i can use those hours during "peak rate" is irrelevant to me as i'm commuting & in work between 7.30am and 6.30pm.

I'm finding it hard to get excited.

Lemming

Originally posted by pete
To be honest, while this is progress it's not quite the quantum leap i'd been expecting from FRIACO.

The bottom line is that for €5 less per month I get 30 hours more online time.... the fact that i can use those hours during "peak rate" is irrelevant to me as i'm commuting & in work between 7.30am and 6.30pm.

I'm finding it hard to get excited.

And on those days where you're not in work? ....

What about those who work from home, carers, the house-bound, etc ? Not everyone does as you do.

But the main point of FRIACO (& broadband) is that it stops the clock-watching that has hampered the take up & use of "d'internet" in this country. It will encourage people to stay online that bit longer and let them explore what's out there. This has a domino effect on other areas.

Whislt I never "really" watched the clock when on 56k dial-up, I've noticed a change in my perception to net use under broadband simply because the thought of billing didn't crop up.

bk

Originally posted by pete
To be honest, while this is progress it's not quite the quantum leap i'd been expecting from FRIACO.

The bottom line is that for €5 less per month I get 30 hours more online time.... the fact that i can use those hours during "peak rate" is irrelevant to me as i'm commuting & in work between 7.30am and 6.30pm.

I'm finding it hard to get excited.

Well if you are not home during the day, then 180 hours shouldn't be a big deal for you. If you get home at 6:30 and jump on the net straight away, that means you can stay online until 12:30 that night. You should be going to bed about then You will likely never even come close to using 180 hours a month, so what is the problem then?

What is it that people where expecting from FRIACO so?

pete

Originally posted by Lemming
And on those days where you're not in work? ....

What about those who work from home, carers, the house-bound, etc ? Not everyone does as you do.

But the main focus of FRIACO & broadband is that it stops the clock-watching that has hampered the take up & use of "d'internet" in this country

Whislt I never "really" watched the clock when on 56k dial-up, I've noticed a change in my perception to net use under broadband simply because the thought of billing didn't crop up.

Dude!

Note the use of the "I" word in my post! I'm talking about tangible benefits to ME, a current UTVIP customer - it's just not a HUGE difference going from 150 hours to 180 hours....

And anyway - I think there's a good chance more people are out of the house working / schooling during the day than are sitting at home wishing they could get on the interweb!

but like i said - it's progress

pete

Originally posted by bk
Well if you are not home during the day, then 180 hours shouldn't be a big deal for you. If you get home at 6:30 and jump on the net straight away, that means you can stay online until 12:30 that night. You should be going to bed about then You will likely never even come close to using 180 hours a month, so what is the problem then?

What is it that people where expecting from FRIACO so?

I use maybe 200+ hours a month as is. I don't watch much telly, see.

edit: I think that's how many hours i use - thanks to UTVIP i rarely feel the need to look at the bill!

edit again: oh just to clarify - i don't download "Linux ISO's" or anything like that - i just work on me website a lot

BKtje

I think Skeptic One put it very well, FRIACO is bigger for businesses then for home users.
The palce i work used to just connect for 2 hrs a day to grab their email etc then log off again. Now with broadband they stay connected and arent afraid to send large files around.

Small businesses will usually see the difference that the internet makes when its always there and will then want broadband so they can take full advantage.

The youth of today (or not so young ) can now access the internet during the day without huge costs looming . This will allow them to either play games or do course/school work. The more they use it the higher the demand for broadband will get and the more the government will focus on it.

Now i realise that this isnt exactly what everyone was hoping for, it is however another baby step along the road to where we wannabe. Its a catalyst imo, give it a little time

pete

Perhaps i could have phrased my post better if i'd just said that, from a consumer perspective, UTVIP's existing €30, 150 hour service has stolen much of the thunder from FRIACO?

If we'd gotten these FRIACO-based options before UTVIP arrived on the scene there'd be dancing in the streets....

flamegrill

Originally posted by pete
Perhaps i could have phrased my post better if i'd just said that, from a consumer perspective, UTVIP's existing €30, 150 hour service has stolen much of the thunder from FRIACO?

If we'd gotten these FRIACO-based options before UTVIP arrived on the scene there'd be dancing in the streets....

i'd have to agree with that, but indeed UTVip did take the bite out of it. Nolimits seems to have been forgotten about though, it was long long before its time.

What ever happened to esat eh ? lost their nerve?

Paul

RicardoSmith

Personally I think its excellent. I've already signed up. There are occasions when I work from home and would be using the web practically all day. As I can't get BoredBand its really going to make night and day difference to me. I expect my bill will drop by hundreds of euros. Personally I am dancing around the room, if not the street.

Oh and I've mailed all my online friends and relatives about it too.

bk

Originally posted by pete

And anyway - I think there's a good chance more people are out of the house working / schooling during the day than are sitting at home wishing they could get on the interweb!

Of course this product isn't suitable for everyone, it does however fill a major gap in the market for many people.

If people are only interested in off peak hours then netsmart may be better for them. I expect IOL will have to change its Netsmart products as the two UTV products completely blow Netsmart out of the water.

The only gap left in the market after this is very heavy time users and broadband is the correct product for them, not FRIACO products.

Nyum Nyum

I don't know what to do

I'm with UTV already and am waiting to hear how my application for Broadband is going - so I do I migrate my existing account or carry on waiting just in case?

sceptre

Originally posted by MDR
They will all claim flat-rate access, and then in the t&c small print cap the number of hours.

Oh, any bold companies that do that will be hearing from me via the ASAI as soon as the first adverts go out. There'll be no marketing of pewter as silver (even if silver is commercially impractical and impossible)

Telcos can save themselves from this hassle if they market the product as pre-paid blocks of Internet access at a reduced rate or something equaly catchy that doesn't include the words "flat-rate". Eircom and Esat "free" access is another target I'm lining up for (the "free" v "subscription" distinction is no longer a protection)

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by bk
...The only gap left in the market after this is very heavy time users and broadband is the correct product for them, not FRIACO products.

Unless they can't get broadband in which case FRIACO is.

Cabaal

Originally posted by bk
There is no such thing as real flat rate internet on dialup based services. Even in the UK they kick off heavy users

Actually thats incorrect, some ISP in the Uk don't actually kick off heavy dialup users, BT may but AOL actually don't

Don't bother going on about different ISP services because I'm only saying they don't kick off people who stay on-line alot.

tuxy

well some of the isp's in the uk would have a big enough customer base to allow some people to be very heavy users with out affecting the service for eveyone
this isnt posible in ireland because its a smaller market

Dawg

Seems to me like there's just no pleasing some people. UTV cant just wave a magic wand and give everyone superfast always on connections, nor can they provide a 24/7 always on dialup service for anywhere near that price. To do that each user would need a dedicated port which just isn't viable.

180 hours for 25 quid is pretty damn good, fair play to UTV. Maybe a top up option down the line where people could buy a few more hours if they need them would be nice. Most people wont use the net 6 hours a day, so the extra hours can be used on those days your home from work bored (really bored if your using teh net that long tbh).

Like someone said before, some people are whinging just for the sake of it, so much so that when there's something worth whinging about you will be completely ignored, and there's no-one to blame but yourselves.

UTV are working within constraints, same as every one else. From what I can see they're providing about as much as they can while maintaining some sort of profit. If you dont like the deal, then go with a different company. Personally I dont fancy your chances getting a better package elsewhere.

Mo'

I work a three on, three off shift system along with ± 150 others in my company. A good 90% of us have pc's (thanks to the company) and use the internet on our days off. I will definitely be forwarding the news around to them because, initially, when UTVip came out, alot of them said to me that it wouldn't make much of a difference to them 'coz they use the internet day and night, and are often busy with other things during 'off-peak' hours.
The XL package will make a huge difference to these guys and girls....and to my phone bill once again

THANX UTV

Cuauhtemoc

Well i find it all much ado about nothing as i arrived home on a nice day to find a pleasant bill from eircom for €197(mostly internet). Cheers!

My bb connection should be in within the month(fingers crossed) which is why i consider it all a bit late.

Maybe for low rate users and ppl outside the bb area its good but it should've been here a long time ago.(utvip may have been but i wasn't aware of there service until about a month ago. They could've advertised better.)

pete

Originally posted by Dawg
Seems to me like there's just no pleasing some people.

well pardon me for having a ****ing opinion

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by tuxx
well some of the isp's in the uk would have a big enough customer base to allow some people to be very heavy users with out affecting the service for eveyone
this isnt posible in ireland because its a smaller market

I have written this so many times, but almost can't be bothered anymore now; The reason why Ireland can not sustain a true flat rate internet access model is not because of it being a smaller market, but rather it is because of Eircom. If this were not the case, how could you explain how New Zealand for example, which has a smaller population (not to mention New Zeland does not have the advantage of being so close to London, a hub for international backhaul and connectivity!), can sustain true flat rate packages for around 14-15 euros a month (yes, they allow up to 720 hours usage a month!), and limited flat rate packages (up to 300 hours a month) for 12-13 euros.

By the way, I personally believe that flat rate is not the way to go. We need broadband, and not just for some, but for everyone, which is why ComReg must update the USO to force Eircom to offer at least 512kbps broadband to every one at affordable rates (somewhere between 20 and 40 euros a month), not just cherry pick a few areas.

Giblet

I cant get DSL and probably will be never able to.. I have to transfer big files all the time. And on ISDN I'm limited to 7.5k.
IOL will be offering 180 aswell, except that I wouldn't of had to change my phone provider to supply them with extra funds. I though THIS would have allowed them to supply 300 hours a month, and If
I remember correctly, this was insinuated by previous posts by Scott et al.

Dawg

well pardon me for having a ****ing opinion

Your perfectly entitled to it mate, and your entitled to posting it here same as everyone else.

If your not happy with the offering, then by all means tell UTV where you think they're going wrong. Of course, there's no point setting unrealistic goals that cant be achieved by them or anyone else in their situation.

I wasn't getting at anyone in particular, simply stating that some people are slating the service without actually thinking through what can and cant be achieved at this time. Sure we'd all love decent connections at an affordable price but whinging consistently without providing any alternatives is pointless and counterproductive. If I was working with UTV and noticed the same usernames on here whining about EVERY service (not just UTV's) like spoilt kids because they cant get what they want I'd simply stop taking those peoples opinions seriously.

What's your major concern with the service and how do you think it can be improved? Keeping in mind that if UTV dont pull a profit they just wont offer a service at all.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Cuauhtemoc
....Maybe for low rate users and ppl outside the bb area ...

or people inside the bb area who still can't get it 'cause of bad copper...

pete

Dawg - i've already said what my "concern" is - i was hoping (perhaps irrationally) for something more. What can I say? - UTV have spoiled me..... I've also already registered for migration to the new service!

Ricardo- that's the post there i think you're referring to. It's all aspirational, and i'm not going to criticise ANYONE in the current climate for not being able to deliver what they HOPED to be able to deliver.

Another option is to charge in a similar fashion to our current UTVip off peak flat rate service in which we advertise up-front a limit to the number of hours which can be used in a month, beyond which per minute charges apply. On a 24/7 service, we would anticipate that this limit may be in the region of 250-300 hours per month with the possibility of per minute charges of around 1c per minute thereafter. Obviously a service of this type would meet the needs of 99.9% of customers but may raise questions in terms of our advertising, as to whether the service is truly flat rate. Within the UK the BT Surftime Anytime service operates in this manner with a limit of 150 hours per month, beyond which call charges apply.

And the above statement was qualified by

We are not fixed on the final product offering and want to be as upfront as we can about the issues that we face in putting forward a commercially viable product.

Truly, I feel their pain.

vac

Universal flat rate (unmetered) access to the internet for all users.

Is this not one of the irelandoffline goals, one of OUR goals...

Why are you calling people "whines" for wanting more? We're not in this to get 180 hours of use per month, we're in it to get what pretty much every other country has (FRIACO wise).

Why should we settle for less, just because it suits some of you?

Dawg

I could be wrong (its not unusual) but I think most countries have something similar to what UTV are offering, a set number of hours for a fixed monthly fee. I'd be of the opinion that if you use more than 6 hours a day then really you should be looking for broadband.
The lack of broadband coverage is not UTV's fault, and they shouldn't be expected to make up the defficet(sp?) caused by other companies. If its an always on 56k connection you want then thats fine, maybe UTV can introduce a service to cater for you in the future but it wont be in the €25 a month bracket. They have to buy from Eircon too.

Its not settling for less, its taking the problem to the correct source.

And for the record the current situation doesn't particularly suit me. I cant get broadband, but I'm not going to waste my energy blaming UTV when I know damn well that they aint the problem. I'll make do with the best of a bad bunch and continue harrassing ComReg and Eircom until I get a suitable connection.

UTV already cut a lot of peoples bills in half, and now they've offered more hours for a lower price... credit where its due

Giblet

A broadband* user who used it for 6 hours a day @ 50 k/sec would bust the cap in just over 3 days, therefore if they left it like that for a month it would be 32 gigs.
Now say if they used it like a modem user, 5k a sec for 6 hours a day with no other use (which is hard due to it being always on), the cap would be used up in a month. So saying that if you needed more time you would should use broadband is misleading.
Speed is the issue with broadband, and in its current format, iit is only suitable for light to med users


*eircom standard package

Dawg

Yes Giblet, but I think you might have missed my point.

Who's fault is it that most BB services are capped?

And who's fault is it that most people cant avail of it anyway?

And who's fault is it that UTV can only offer 180 hours on the dial-up service?

What I was getting at is that there's no point blaming UTV for a problem caused by someone else. I'm just repeating myself now...

niallb

I was hoping for more hours on the main package.
After reading Scott's post on 250-300 hours, the 180 seems a step back.
Maybe it's a bit of insurance with the Eircom case being adjourned. If so, fair enough.

I've been using UTVip with the peaksaver option since September at €40 per month. Happy with that.
My average internet use would be about 250 hours,
so this package is going to save me upwards of €150 a month. Happy with that.
However, the 180 hours leaves me still clockwatching, and I'd like to see a similarly priced extension (i.e. the €10 for peaksaver) to the product with more hours and the reduced peak rate for extra minutes.

How about splitting the difference between 180 and 300 for a third tier and call it 247 hours for true "24 7" access at about €35.
That's much the same price per hour for UTV and it would look good in advertising as Teleworker 247.

180 hours is plenty if you're out all day, but it's not Mission accomplished for IrelandOffline just yet.

Rambling, grumbling,
but thanks anyway UTV.
NiallB

vac

I could be wrong (its not unusual) but I think most countries have something similar to what UTV are offering, a set number of hours for a fixed monthly fee.

UK has umptine isps that do completely flat rate dialup. Only thing some of them enforce is a two hour cut off.