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Stick-figure fixation

  • 20-06-2003 2:53pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,648 ✭✭✭


    Being female you are constantly aware of the fixation the world seems to have with women having stick figures, see the super models, the books upon books upon books of diets, etc. Nearly every magazine you pick up has "Loose weight, feel great, look great!" on them.

    Does anyone else think that there is too much of a fixation upon being thin that it's pushing people (especially women, but including men) to dislike themselves and their appearance so much it's causing serious problems?

    I mean, I'm a "healthy" weight, I could never be called thin, and I can be called fat, but I'm happy the way I am, and I'm healthy the way I am, and yet I still get helpful "advice" from relations telling me that I need to lose weight, they don't mean it in a bad way, but they do nonetheless.

    See the thing is my Dad was at a funeral the other day and he got the shock of his life because one of the girls at it was anoxeric and virtually had to be carried from the car to the church, and was covered in that downy hair that only babies are meant to have. He says she looked worse than the picturs of the jews coming out of concentration camps.... it shocked him to his core and he was nearly sick....

    Since then he's gotten quite annoyed when he sees the 'diets', etc, being pushed upon people all the time, and I'm starting to think that he is right, up until this I was relatively sure it was mostly a personal feeling, but now I'm not.

    Opinions?

    << Fio >>


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,924 ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    Originally posted by smiles
    Does anyone else think that there is too much of a fixation upon being thin that it's pushing people (especially women, but including men) to dislike themselves and their appearance so much it's causing serious problems?

    Definitely. Everywhere you see (especially in the media, but the diet industry too) there seems to be an emphasis that thin and beautiful is good, and anything outside of that definition seems to have something "wrong" with them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭neohoki


    These stick figures are being pushed on by fashion companies and food companies.
    Has anyone else noticed the HUGE explosion of diet foods in the food market.
    They make billions every year around the world now.
    Did you know that even McDonalds are adding healthy foods to their menu to get a piece of the pie?
    It's all a huge plot against consumers.

    Magazines covertly say wearing these clothes will make you loved
    |
    But you have to be thin to wear these clothes..
    |
    Magazines conveniently advertise diet foods
    |
    women buy these foods assuming they will make them thin
    |
    diet companies rake in the money on peoples insecurities (business ethics what are those???)


    yes everything is sexier in diagramatical form.I'm so neurotic...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12 denis


    The modern obsession with being thin is obviously a bad thing. I mean, not eating anything, wasting away, losing hair, dying - none of these are very good ideas. Obviously, the Kate Moss - style saturation of fashion media and pop magazines causes young people (girls mainly) to think that this is the only way to be attractive. Which is sad. And well known.

    The recent backlash of this, howver, could turn out to be just as dangerous. The "I'm okay no matter what I'm doing" attitude. People who are dangerously overweight, or who are heading that way, and who use the anorexia argument to justify this to themselves. The litany of disorders and damage that you do to yourself when you overeat is frightening, but more and more we see very very fat people (now, this is on television, of course. How else do we see the world?) saying "yeah, I'm fat, and I'm taking 30 years off my life, and I'm overfeeding my children, and yes I can't see my feet, tie my shoes or go to the cinema, but lay off, I'm happy". Which is also sad. And becoming more and more common.

    As with most things, the sensible course lies in the middle ground. Paying attention to what people say, and what people suggest, without obsessing. Moderating weight with a balanced, controlled diet and exercising, without depriving yourself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 124 ✭✭neohoki


    I know i just posted there but i agree with that i have seen horribly obese people. I remember on one of my rare trips to daytime tv i saw this women and she couldnt even leave her bed..
    She had to get so many operations too. But she was saved by the lord almighty richard simmons. bless his camp little heart.
    Also the whole idea of it doesnt matter what you look like on the outside doesn't matter.What a load of crap that sort of idealistic makes people think they can eat whatever they want without any concern.Damnit im doing it again.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 772 ✭✭✭Chaos-Engine


    I totally agree with you. This downward spiral is an easy trap to fall into.

    The phrase: "Look Beautiful" now means "Look thin/skiny". Looking Beautiful may indeed mean:don't be over-weight. Fair enough. But being skinny isn't being beautiful.

    Take Women for example. IN the past(pre-70s). Beautiful was curvy(not a fat curvy). Just sexy, curvy women like Bettie Page. Real women have curves. Skinny women(i.e. most of the media's preception of beauty) have the figures of mal-nurished 10 year old boys.

    Now I don't know about the majority of guys. But i for one don't find the figure of a 10 year old boy sexy!

    Jennifer Lopez. She isn't particularly skinny(correct me if i'm wrong i don't actually look at her much). But she has latin curves. Today's Men find this sexy on a sub-concious level mostly as they aren't akin to going for the curvy lady.

    I have more to say but i have a moral conflict of interests to wage with myself before i can rant about it ;)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    It's very simple:

    No matter what you look like, what your life is like advertisers want to make you feel that you will be happier if you buy their products. Even if you're thin, they'll find some other point to pick at - do you have good skin, is your hair healthy etc

    Many magazines also have this policy because thay depend on advertisers to make a profit.

    The best solution is to ignore such trash completely. This, alas, is hard, especially seeing as how traditionally serious media are also focusing more and more on superficial topics. Some examples: stories about celebrities on the news, "young & beautiful" weather ppl, lifestyle magazines with articles on fashion etc coming with broadsheet papers.

    A small percentage of ppl are v. thin even though they eat normally. For all other ppl, achieving the stick insect look is impossible unless they put themselves through misery - IMO, once you're not unhealthily overweight, you're ok, be happy, accept the body u have.

    Plus, most men and women, when looking for a partner, don't want someone who looks like they stepped out of Vogue, they want a real flesh and blood person with a real personality. If U had to look like a model to have a love life/ sex life, the world's population level would be dropping at an alarming rate!

    So, remember, as long as you're healthy, don't obsess about weight and such things. A confident person with their own opinions(i.e. not opinions learned off from magazines and TV) is infinitely more attractive than a walking Barbie/Ken doll.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    yes with a cruves figure it is all about proportion and with out that tere are more and more females that can not keep a bust while being stick thin and hence the rise in boob jobs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Samara


    The models are thinner than ever before, these are women existing on a meagre diet and countless hours of exercise. Seeing them paraded about on catwalks, television and every magazine is brainwashing not only women but men. I have heard men refer to women I would regard as an average and healthy weight as fat!! Faced with this mindset every day I'm mildly surprised that eating disorders are not even more of a problem!

    Anorexia Nervosa has one of the highest death rates of any mental health condition. It is not a fad, it is a life threatening illness! I am sickened to see pro-anorexia websites popping up everywhere, women with their ribs and teeth showing through their skin, skeletal figures who are icons to other women with anorexia, these women strive to look like them and in the name of 'artistic beauty' other people expoit this. Another very overlooked aspect is anorexia nervosa and other eating disorders in men! I rarely see reports of this anywhere, yet it exists. The national eating disorders assoiciation estimates 90-95% of anorexia sufferers are women, so why aren't we hearing about the 5-10% which are men?

    Let's face it, nobody is completely 100% happy with their body image, everyone envisions something about themselves they would enhance or improve if they could. The best we can hope for is to live a healthy lifestyle and to accept ourselves and be comfortable with who we are.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,446 ✭✭✭✭amp


    Cindy Crawford = yum
    Kate Moss = alien

    I have no idea why supermodels have to be so stupidly thin. Maybe they're going for elegant rather that sexy. Maybe it's to make them different from other areas of the glamour industry.

    It's all about the curves tbh. Just like cars. A Jaguar e-type is sexy. A Volvo S40 is not.

    Curves are beautiful things. And I've no idea why that is either.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Apparently, the clothes "hang" better on tall, thin ppl. This seems stupid to me though. Were I a designer, I'd make a point of using ppl of all sizes and ages and making them all look good.

    Another theory is that many male fashion designers are gay and that they prefer models that look boyish rather than womanly. Don't know.

    Personally, I think that beauty is subjective (not too keen on curvy stuff myself!) and it's a pity the fashion world dosen't reflect this, i.e if fashion designers are so creative why are their tastes in what constitutes a good model to show off clothes so homogenous?

    Plus, one more thing I'd like to point out - everyone acknowledges that it's horrible to call ppl fat but it seems ok to call thin ppl skinny freaks, aliens etc. Why not just stop judging ppl on their looks altogether? (yeah, I know i'm being idealistic there)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭sunbeam


    What really bugs me is the emphasis of certain women's magazines is the unspoken notion that if you lose weight everything else in your life will magically right itself. The housewifey ones (that I hasten to add I only ever read in doctors waiting rooms) are particularly guilty of this. I really think that if they printed more stories about women who changed their lives by going back to education/taking assertiveness classes/starting their own business/whatever the world would be a better place.

    It took me a long time to accept that I am broad and wasn't built to be skinny. Even at my at my thinnest and most cadaverous there were dieting magazines that informed me I was ‘obese’ (at 9 stone !) and people who felt the need to make snide comments about how ‘fat’ I was.

    I am now a much happier and healthier size 16 hourglass, or as I prefer to describe it ‘Size Marilyn Monroe’ :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    What really bugs me is the emphasis of certain women's magazines is the unspoken notion that if you lose weight everything else in your life will magically right itself.

    Agreed. I think womens' magazines are an insult to womens' intelligence and I can't understand why they're so popular. I urge ye all to boycott them!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,148 ✭✭✭Ronan|Raven


    I think people are so bombarded with images of these "beautiful" thin people that everyone seems to be thinking that unless yer thin yer awful and no one will like you. Of course being badly overweight is not a good idea due to the health implications etc. I've a beer belly and could do with doing more exercise than typing all day and sitting infornt of pc's but im not gona panic and try to get nice and thin to keep up with some "must be like that guy in the ad so people will flock to me" I would however lose a bit of weight for my health but id consider that a more valid reason than feeling I must be thin.

    As a great tshirt once said Thin is In, But fat is comfortable


  • Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    "You are not your job.
    You are not how much you have in the bank.
    You are not the contents of your wallet.
    You are not your fucking Khakis."


    I believe in moderation in all things, including moderation.

    DeV.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Wook


    just to continue this.. i agree with the original poster and others , that THIN is not nice and highly unpleasant images spring into my mind trying to have sex with a bone-girl. It's the images of sarajevo, africa appeal groups that most resemble your model these days.

    Btw , Devore.. at the other hand.. people who are extremely overweight wearing Nike, Reebok or any other sporty stuff just doesn't make sense to me. They are trying to be everything they're not. The complete culture of sweaty running girls/man don't fit on a guy that can't do the stairs in one go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Originally posted by simu
    Agreed. I think womens' magazines are an insult to womens' intelligence and I can't understand why they're so popular. I urge ye all to boycott them!
    Buy porn mags instead.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Most porn for wonem is sh*te :(:(:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,446 ✭✭✭✭amp


    That's fascinating. Back on topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,025 ✭✭✭yellum


    Originally posted by simu

    Another theory is that many male fashion designers are gay and that they prefer models that look boyish rather than womanly. Don't know.

    Yeah, that might be true. Some of the supermodels are very boyish and thats the way the designers like em.

    I'm currently 2 stone overweight but I'm not complaining that much. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭Wook


    i'd say the media is to blame for this.... all these woman magazines and TV-shows about 'beautifull' woman.
    All the celebs.. they are either very thin, or rather large but i know of none that is just in the middle.

    just see :Reuben paintings, or when we needed the woman 'white' coloured instead of tanned etc etc.

    people are sheep.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭nuvolari


    i think the main reason catwalk models are of the tall and thin variety is because they're kind of nondescript, and the clothes are what you're attracted to. if you're distracted by some great breasts, you're missing the terribly avant garde styling dah-ling.

    i do think there's too much emphasis on weight loss is magazines, especially the 'look at how this washed up celebrity has halved her wieght and relauched her career'.

    but another side of the coin is thin people being called anorexic as an insult. i'm thin i guess, and i've had people say i look too thin, or anorexic and that i should put on weight. why should i? i'm technically underweight, but i eat properly, hell i eat too much junk even, but its genetic, its the way i am and i'm sick and tired of people telling me that girls with curves are more sexy and natural -its like saying the way i look isn't good enough for them. the bottom line is that i don't care. its what's right for me

    /rant


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 829 ✭✭✭McGinty


    I'd have to agree that with magazines there is far too much empahsis on losing weight, I don't buy them anymore, haven't done for some time. I try to ignore all those 'get thin' messages. With regards to models, I agree with nuvolari points. However I beleive there is a way of telling if someone is naturally slim or malnourished. A slim person looks healthy, an underweight person has the wasted arms and legs look, there is little or no muscle tone.

    I decided to focus on how amazing the body is in the way it works, and how it supports me to do the things I want to do. Viewing your body in this way makes it much harder for me to think I have a gross body, which I have been guilty of. I am overweight, not hugely, more like the Marylin Monroe proportions, but when I was much lighter, I still thought I was fat, so its all about perception. I realise I could do with losing weight, and I woulldn't like to get heavier, but I am learning to accept that the body is beautiful and amazing.

    I just wish the women's magazines would stop insulting our intelligence, and men be careful the same thing is happening with men's magazines. I say boycott the whole lot 'em


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭DriftingRain


    Awwww...
    I know smiles. In the U.S. I think there are more and more over weight people due to fast food and mothers not making kids go outside and play.
    I too am no skinny beany but I don't think I am over weight either and I am happy with my self. It is terrible. I saw a 12 year old Saturday in the ER with anorexia. She thought she was fat. Her health was terrible and it is soooo sad to see anorexia affecting younger and younger girls and boys these days. The media will never stop though, their money flow is toooo good. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    I was just talking to a friend of mine today about this topic. Its terrible that people are made to feel bad about the way they look however thin/fat they are - nearly every female friend I have has been made to feel bad about the way they look, as I'm sure some of my male friends have (although not to the same extent it seems).

    People are free to make their own choices about how they live their lives - whether they smoke, eat too much junk, don't eat enough vegetables - as long as you know the risks associated with your lifestyle you should be able to make your own decisions without other people criticising you.

    For several years I have been unhappy with my weight (a stone or two over the 'average' weight) and hated to see myself in photos, mirrors etc. However while I still would prefer a taller, slimmer body (because that is a look that I like) I am now pretty happy with my own body.

    While I think the films, fashion designers, magazines etc. have a lot to answer for I think it is up to people themselves to make their own decision not to judge other people by the way they look.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,564 ✭✭✭Typedef


    To be honest, it's very difficult to cherry pick the aspects of modern society you subscribe to.

    For example, one may not subscribe to pub-going in order to meet members of the opposite sex. In this regard you will spend a long time watching blue movies if you don't.

    Similarly, one may rail against the images of bemuscled men, and vuluptous women, with impossible waistlines to match, but, in reality, railing against it, is simply an instanciation of the incompatability of the individual's desire to be individual and societal trends in general.

    Perhaps, images of heroin addicted, quasi-anorexic models, are a personal afront to some. Many aspects of society are a personal affront to others (like getting drunk in order to get laid), but, sometimes, you win some, you loose some.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,730 ✭✭✭✭simu


    Do people really pay so much attention to magazines?

    When I was a teenager, my cousin used to buy loads of teen magazines. I'd take a brief look through them, decide that all this advice on sex and being cool etc was completely irrelevant to my nerdish existence and go off to do something more fruitful with my time.

    Maybe I was atypical, I don't know.

    If we could only encourage self-esteem in kids without, at the same time, overdoing it and turning them into obnoxious brats...

    Plus, classes on basic nutrition and good food habits should be obligatory in school and there should be special courses on this for all future parents.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by Wyvern
    People are free to make their own choices about how they live their lives - whether they smoke, eat too much junk, don't eat enough vegetables - as long as you know the risks associated with your lifestyle you should be able to make your own decisions without other people criticising you.
    That raises another interesting point -- do people really make informed decisions about their lifestyle, or do the majority find themselves stuck on one or other side of an unhappy duality: whether to blindly follow the crowd, or whether to openly buck the trend?

    I suspect that many people who smoke/overeat etc do so not because of a truly informed choice, but more because they're fed up being told what they're supposed to do, and don't see any choice but to do the opposite.

    And don't get me started on young girls who smoke to stay thin... :rolleyes:
    For several years I have been unhappy with my weight (a stone or two over the 'average' weight) and hated to see myself in photos, mirrors etc. However while I still would prefer a taller, slimmer body (because that is a look that I like) I am now pretty happy with my own body.
    That's a good place to be, and a definite improvement on where you were before. From personal experience, however (having gone through a fairly similar transition), I can tell you that it's a very empowering experience to take it a step further and actually work towards your ideal weight/shape. The fact that you've become more comfortable with how you look now actually makes it more likely that you could succeed in changing.
    While I think the films, fashion designers, magazines etc. have a lot to answer for I think it is up to people themselves to make their own decision not to judge other people by the way they look.
    I strongly agree with this. That said, it's important to understand how thoroughly the mass media comprehend and manipulate group consciousness, to the extent not only of superseding common sense, but almost to the point of dictating it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by Wyvern
    I was just talking to a friend of mine today about this topic. Its terrible that people are made to feel bad about the way they look however thin/fat they are - nearly every female friend I have has been made to feel bad about the way they look, as I'm sure some of my male friends have (although not to the same extent it seems).


    Why, surely it's better for them to feel bad about themselves and do something about it rather than get diabetes and die cause they're morbidly obese. Its this kind of absolute tolerance that leads to major probs down the line.

    As for the topic in general, why are models etc so slim, thats easy, because they look better, end of story !!


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,830 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    As for the topic in general, why are models etc so slim, thats easy, because they look better, end of story !!
    No, they don't.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by oscarBravo
    No, they don't.

    Ok, so thats your opinion, but designers / magazine publishers etc are out to make money, they are not a charity and the people have voted with their wallets, if larger women were more attractive then the profit margins would see them walking down catwalks and gracing the covers of magazines in a tic, reason they are not is that people won't buy mags with big women on the covers. The whole idea that this image is forced upon us is wrong, the consumer decides.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭sunbeam


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    Ok, so thats your opinion, but designers / magazine publishers etc are out to make money, they are not a charity and the people have voted with their wallets, if larger women were more attractive then the profit margins would see them walking down catwalks and gracing the covers of magazines in a tic, reason they are not is that people won't buy mags with big women on the covers. The whole idea that this image is forced upon us is wrong, the consumer decides.

    A few years ago Marie Claire magazine had a dual cover issue devoted to body image. One cover showed a 'thin' Pamela Anderson, the alternative a more voluptous Sophie Dahl (before she lost weight). The magazine with the Sophie Dahl cover won out on sales.

    Although it was otherwise a pretty tame issue, if I recall corrrectly the editor was forced to resign for daring to suggest that the fashion industry might contribute to eating disorders.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt

    Why, surely it's better for them to feel bad about themselves and do something about it rather than get diabetes and die cause they're morbidly obese. Its this kind of absolute tolerance that leads to major probs down the line.

    Maybe in the case where its a danger to your health its good to feel bad about it because it might encourage you to change your lifestyle - on the other hand if thats the way you want to be then why should you feel bad about it?

    And in my case and the cases of my friends, none of them were endangering their health - thats why its so terrible imo! To feel bad about the way you look because people say you SHOULD look another way, when there is nothing wrong with your looks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭sunbeam


    Originally posted by Wyvern
    Maybe in the case where its a danger to your health its good to feel bad about it because it might encourage you to change your lifestyle - on the other hand if thats the way you want to be then why should you feel bad about it?

    The problem is that for some people feeling bad about oneself can reinforce a cycle of overeating and low self esteem-or even more dangerously a cycle of yoyo-dieting, which can be more harmful than being overweight in the first place.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'm about 16 stone. Any doctor would probably tell me I'm overweight. But I'm not fat. Sure, I can't see a sixpack when I look down, but I know it's there. :) I'm pretty happy with myself, and I'd only actively try to lose weight in the hope of getting aerobically fitter.

    Incidentally, to the poster who said the public voted with their wallets, that's only because the media has told them what to vote for.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by sunbeam

    Although it was otherwise a pretty tame issue, if I recall corrrectly the editor was forced to resign for daring to suggest that the fashion industry might contribute to eating disorders.

    but for every person who ended up with an eating disorder there were probably thousands who were spured into doing something about being overweight, eating disorders are a big problem and there's no doubt that some young girls do end up starving themselves in order to gain a models figure, but its the lesser of two evils, just look at all the people you'll see today, very very few will be anorexic, ok I know you can't tell just by looking but you can get an idea, on the other hand at least one in three are gonna be overweight and maybe one in ten are gonna be just plain huge.It's not ok to be fat, fat Kills and this idea that it is ok should not exist, you may as well say its ok to smoke, and if trends continue fat will be killing more people than cigarettes in a few decades.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    It's not ok to be fat, fat Kills and this idea that it is ok should not exist, you may as well say its ok to smoke, and if trends continue fat will be killing more people than cigarettes in a few decades.

    I would disagree with this. It IS ok to smoke and it IS ok to be fat as long as you're not hurting anyone else and as long as you make the choice to live your life like that.

    As far as I can see the dangers of smoking, eating too much and not eating enough are made well aware and it is up to the individual to decide how he wants to live his life. Be that something that is harmful to his health or not.

    Fair enough eating disorders can lead to vicious cycles, but when it starts affecting your health it really is up to YOU to do something about it. Blaming the media doesn't help and isn't completely fair (it may have contributed to the start of your disorder but ultimately it is your responsibility to look after yourself).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by Wyvern
    I would disagree with this. It IS ok to smoke and it IS ok to be fat as long as you're not hurting anyone else

    What about Joe public who has to foot the bills for health care, this attitude would be fine if there was no public health system, but there is and I don't see why I should lead a perfectly healthy lifestyle and end up paying 1000 extra in taxes to finance the care of an over eater or smoker.

    There's a big difference between believing people should have the personal freedom to do whatever they want with their bodies and believing that what that thing they choose to do is OK


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    Smokers pay tax on the tobacco they buy which could go into paying for their healthcare.

    I am quite happy to pay money for the public health system even if I am not going to be using it to the same extent as some one else. If I need to use it it is there for me, the same as anybody else regardless of what they do with their bodies.
    I don't see why I should lead a perfectly healthy lifestyle and end up paying 1000 extra in taxes to finance the care of an over eater or smoker

    With the same argument are you going to say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to do what they want to do because they have a higher risk of getting hiv and therefore sponging off the healthcare system? Why should straight people have to fund their lifestyles?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by Wyvern

    With the same argument are you going to say that homosexuals shouldn't be allowed to do what they want to do because they have a higher risk of getting hiv and therefore sponging off the healthcare system? Why should straight people have to fund their lifestyles?

    no, but they should be encouraged to practice safe sex, as should overweight people be encouraged to lose weight and smokers to quit,

    I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed do what they want, just that the practices that lead them to illness, death and becoming a financial burden for the rest of society should not be seen as "ok" and be discouraged,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed do what they want, just that the practices that lead them to illness, death and becoming a financial burden for the rest of society should not be seen as "ok" and be discouraged,

    These things are generally discouraged by governments but encouraged by advertising. People who see these addictions/illnesses as 'ok' are just not able to think for themselves imo. Now that might be a government problem!

    As for the bit about being a financial burden I would just like to point out that people in hospital don't use roads or public transport and are probably not receiving education while in hospital. Now if they've also paid their taxes up to now then surely you're a burden on them what with you using all these publicly funded things!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by Imposter

    As for the bit about being a financial burden I would just like to point out that people in hospital don't use roads or public transport and are probably not receiving education while in hospital. Now if they've also paid their taxes up to now then surely you're a burden on them what with you using all these publicly funded things!

    :p now thats just silly


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    :p now thats just silly

    Why is it silly? People pay taxes that go towards financing all sorts of, let's say, 'social' projects. Now if you use the public transport 'service' more than the health 'service' does that mean you should get a refund on your taxes towards the health service?

    What i'm basically trying to do is point out that all these things exist for everyone and not everyone is going to get equal use out of all of them. So to say people are a financial burden when they are actually contributing (in most cases) to the system is wrong.

    One could also argue against your financial burden argument that if a smoker quits the exchequer loses a large amount of tax! (Even if this tax is possibly going to pay for their healthcare some day as a result of their smoking).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,822 ✭✭✭sunbeam


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    no, but they should be encouraged to practice safe sex, as should overweight people be encouraged to lose weight and smokers to quit,

    My point is that if an overweight person eats for deeply ingrained emotional reasons (and I'm by no means saying that everyone who is overweight fits this bill) 'encouraging' them to lose weight by lectures. threats and making them feel worse than they already do may be counterproductive. Using weight loss as a measure of self esteem can be a dangerous thing, particularly for anyone with low self esteem and/or perfectionist tendencies.

    I'm not suggesting that being obese is healthy, but would contend that if emotional eating is a factor that diets are not the answer. Of course there is a very powerful multi-million dollar weight loss industry that would contend that they are. If diets are so successful why the need for expensive 'maintenance programmes'? Because of course in the longterm they are not and the diet industry has a vested interest in keeping their clients food and weight obsessed.

    I am a supporter of the 'no diet' movement which focuses on addressing emotional reasons for overeating/dieting, training people recognise the difference between physical and emotional hunger and to eat a varied and balanced diet. No calorie/points counting, no pre-prepared 'easy' menu plans, no expensive, 'special' foods to buy, no empty promises of everything automatically being wonderful when you lose weight.

    There is a focus on self-esteem, self-care and healthy living regardless of what weight one happens to be at any given time. I have personally found that starting from this point made it easier to change.

    As for overweight people being more likely to require medical care, this is unlikely if they are merely a stone or two overweight. At any rate their is some debate about what the range of 'normal weight' actually is. In her book 'Fabulous Figures' Rachel Swift debunks the validity of many weight-height charts so beloved of the medical profession. She found that some of these were based on samples of as little as twenty five people-all men-and could hardly be representative of what is healthy for the population as a whole.

    I was technically 'overweight' at a time my hip bones jutted out so much that I had difficulty sitting down and was warned by my GP to stop dieting. Much depends on how you carry your weight rather than a number per se and whether it is composed of muscle or fat. In general terms weight carried on the extremities is of less concern that that carried around the abdomen.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    Originally posted by Imposter
    People who see these addictions/illnesses as 'ok' are just not able to think for themselves imo.

    I don't think thats fair. Maybe they do realise they are slowly killing themselves by their addictions and decide that they think the enjoyment they get out of it is worth more than that, or they don't really want to live anyway, or they just don't care.

    Just because society says they should care about their health doesn't mean they have to. Its just as bad as the advertising that we've been complaining about in previous posts.

    Besides there are plenty of lifestyle choices which can be dangerous to your health - such as riding a motorbike, skydiving... - those people choose to risk their lives even though they can think for themselves.

    Everyone doesn't have the same priorities - for some people life can be seen as too short to worry about health and looks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Wyvern,

    Ye sorry I wasn't very clear in what I wanted to saywhich was that in a lot of cases people are smoking or underweight because of peer pressure and/or advertising or media articles. Overweight people are generally overweight because of advertising and generally an unhealthy lifestyle.

    Two very different problems but imo caused by much the same factors. In terms of being 'not able to think for themselves' I mean that they don't seem to want to investigate if they should be eating what they are or smoking what they do. They are far too willing to take some glossy mag or advertisments word for it.

    Their are always exceptions though that will do this even though they know the risks. That's sort of where I was coming from.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by Imposter
    Why is it silly?

    public transport pretty much pays for itself, health service is a very diff story, and alot of the cost would go on caring for smokers and less so for overweight people (for now perhaps). Every year X amount of money will be spent on these people, thats dead money that could have been spent far more productively elsewhere, and we all foot the bill. Nowhere else is there such a disparity between what one group of society puts in and what they take out,

    If a smoker quits he/she will not hoard all the extra cash in the bank, they will spend it and pay VAT on what they buy, plus that money can be spent on something worthwhile and not their own medical costs,

    As for the silly bit. I just thought saying that people not in hospital are a financial burder on those in em, in that case we should all go in and all would be well :)

    [/B][/QUOTE]


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 428 ✭✭skipn_easy


    Yes Imposter you're right, there are people who overeat and undereat due to advertising and peer pressures. These people could probably do with sitting down and really thinking about what they are doing - but theres the problem isn't it? If they were thinking for themselves presumably they wouldn't be doing it, or at least they'd have a good reason for doing it. Back to the original post we go!

    I thought you were saying that thats why everyone was doing it, but I took you up wrong :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    Originally posted by bananayoghurt
    public transport pretty much pays for itself, health service is a very diff story
    I think you'll find public transport does not pay for itself. It gets huge influxs of public money and (like the health 'service') still only provides a third world service for a first world cost.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 801 ✭✭✭dod


    Hmmm...

    I think that this is a contentious issue for a number of reasons:
    - It is very difficult to raise the fat/ thin/ overweight/ ‘right’ weight etc. issue without raising someones hackles.
    - Because of the whole Political Correctness aspect of this issue, there are things that, in good faith, you might like to say but cannot without starting a flame war
    - Without being trite about it, beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. Some people have a preference for the more robustly built members of the opposite sex, others like the skin-and-bones look.

    I’m not sure that an issue like this can be distilled down to a number of identifiable factors. Of course there is a particular body-type that I find superficially attractive. However, I cannot think of any girl that I have found unattractive once I got to know them if fundamentally they were a) confident in themselves, and b) you could rely on their integrity. I think that the whole thin/ fat issue really becomes a non-issue once you’ve established these things. I think that girls who have these two characteristics do not rely on the magazines referred to earlier to tell them what they should believe in, look like, who they should emulate to be ‘cool’, what they should wear and so forth.

    Yes these magazines are influential, but only to those who are sufficiently lacking in self-confidence to allow these magazines to influence them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    Originally posted by dod
    I think that the whole thin/ fat issue really becomes a non-issue once you’ve established these things.

    only as far as it effects your opinion of the person, it's still a major issue in the quality of life and health of the person. Just finished "Fat Land" by Greg Critser, scary stuff, I know this isn't the USA but we're prolly not too far behind :(


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