Legal challenge to all-male golf club

Imposter

This is from the Irish Independent today. (I'd post the article but registration is free!)

Legal Challenge to all-male golf club

What are peoples opinions about this. Should a Club have the right to chose its own rules?

The bit I found funny was:

Women's groups have registered strong protests against the choice of venue for the Irish Open, and for its sponsorship by Bord Failte.

And I couldn't help but wonder if they'd allow any male members into their groups!;)

And in discussions please don't forget there are quite a few women only clubs, (for example the ICA (although no sane male individual would probably ever want membership)), as well as lots of other lobby groups.

My opinion on this is that equal rights is one thing but how would these women who are complaining react to male members in their female only groups/clubs!

yankinlk

when they had these protests in the states no-one came besides curious onlookers.

Teh funny was the guy that infiltrated the crowd with t-shirts and signs that read "Iron my shirt" on the front and "make my dinner" on the back.

Manach

More power to the golfclub, if they are a private group that accept no public monies, they can do what they like membershipwise.

Victor

Originally posted by Manach
More power to the golfclub, if they are a private group that accept no public monies, they can do what they like membershipwise.

They are getting Bord Failte sponsorship and have a drinks licence (and they want county council land), so this exclusive group wants the benefits but not the responsibilities.

DaithiSurfer

A club should be allowed to make its own rules.
They don't want women, up to them.
Why women want to go where they are not wanted i do not know.
Just trying to cause trouble.

I also have absolutely no problem with women creating a club and excluding men. Its up to them, so men shouldn't go around complaining either.

Imposter

Originally posted by Victor
They are getting Bord Failte sponsorship and have a drinks licence (and they want county council land), so this exclusive group wants the benefits but not the responsibilities.

The sponsorship is only for the tournament. Is the club on Council lands (I dunno, i'm asking!) or is this something tournament related as well?

Everygroup wants any benifits they can get, that's normal. What are these responsibilities you speak of?

Victor

Originally posted by Imposter
The sponsorship is only for the tournament. Is the club on Council lands (I dunno, i'm asking!) or is this something tournament related as well?

The land (sand dunes at Portmarnock) is adjacent to the club. So what is the sponsorship is only for one event, the effects are lasting.

Originally posted by Imposter
What are these responsibilities you speak of?

Treating people fairly and equally.

Imposter

Originally posted by Victor
The land (sand dunes at Portmarnock) is adjacent to the club. So what is the sponsorship is only for one event, the effects are lasting. Treating people fairly and equally.

Bord Failte are sponsoring it because it is getting Europewide possibly global attentionand not because of the clubs rules on membership.

Treating people fairly or equally is all well and good but what your saying in effect is that members of a club cannot make the rules for that club. Why don't all male applicants that get refused membership form a 'we want to be members too, it's just not fair' group?

IMO, sexual equality has its place, but this is not a case of sexual discrimination, as such. It is a case of whether or not members should have the power to decide the rules of their club themselves.

Samara

If you want to be poliltically correct then there should be no men only clubs and likewise no women only clubs. ...but in reality the women who are staging the challenge must have very little to do. Why don't they go out and try to help women who are experiencing abuse at home or a million other genuine causes.

This issue has come up before and my take on it is still the same, you have single mother groups right? Therefore they are discriminating against single fathers..... if somebody took a case against every single sex group in the world the justice system would be entirely bogged down. People need to get their priorities straight IMO!

It's human nature to want a little time to yourself with your male or female friends only, this search for equal rights sometimes gets taken too far. So what will happen if they get the club to change their rules?? It's hardly a victory, they can make them change the rules of entry but they still don't have to actually accept any female members do they?? Does anybody know what the point of law is on this aspect?

ReefBreak

There was an interesting discussion on Newstalk's 106 programme this morning. Niall Crowley of the Irish "Equality" Authority was being interviewed by David McWilliams. In the studio was a member (spokesperson, I think) of the ICA (Irish Countrywomen's Assoc.). McWilliams asked Crowley whether or not the ICA should be taken to court for not allowing Male members (fairly tongue-in-cheek-like). Crowley replied, that no they wouldn't, because the organisation had a gender purpose, i.e. an organisation specifically set up for women. I think he used a different phrase for it, but I can't remember it now.

Anyhow, McWilliams suggested that this meant that all Portmarnock had to do was to change it's name to "Portmarnock Men's Golf Club". You know, a place where MEN could get together and play golf, similar to the ICA - a place where WOMEN get together and erm, I dunno, bake scones?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Imposter
And I couldn't help but wonder if they'd allow any male members into their groups!;)

I was asked to speak at a UCD Women’s Group debate a good few years ago, to give the male’s perspective to Male only clubs. What caught my attention was that I was not invited to the reception afterwards.

It was women only.

Cries of equality of the genders by feminists have been duly ignored by me ever since.

(And before anyone points it out, yes, I've posted this story this before).

Sparks

A club should be able to have it's own rules on restricting membership as it's a private entity. However, if that club is given public monies, that privilege no longer applies.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sparks
A club should be able to have it's own rules on restricting membership as it's a private entity. However, if that club is given public monies, that privilege no longer applies.

Agreed, but what happens if said public monies are not given as a donation, but for commercial reasons (e.g. advertising related sponsorship, investment, etc.)?

Meh

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Agreed, but what happens if said public monies are not given as a donation, but for commercial reasons (e.g. advertising related sponsorship, investment, etc.)?

The same rule applies. The government should not do business with any organization that arbitrarily discriminates based on sex or race.

simu

Above all, ppl are individuals and should be treated as such. I think the idea of segregation based on gender, whether in schools, clubs, whatever is silly, unless it's something specifically related to the sex of a person, for example a support group for ppl with breast cancer(even then, you could have a male co-ordinator). AFAIK, women are allowed play at this club at certain times of the week but they are not granted the same level of privileges as male members and they don't have a say in the running of the club. This seems dodgy to me.

Maybe I'm wandering from the main topic of the thread but I wonder, given that ppl are becomming more and more concerned with the standards of different secondary schools, could it ever come about that parents would sue a single-sex school with a good reputation for not granting a place to their child who happens to be of the other sex?


Corinthian, hearing about your experience at UCD, I became dismayed. What feminists should be aiming for is to encourage men and women to get along and treat each other with respect, not trying to "get men back" for discrimination against women in the past. Stupidity is distributed generously among ppl of both sexes:)

kamobe

I cannot understand why there's a lobby group trying to break into a golf club. Why not join another one, or set up your on own woman only club (that'll learn 'em).

They're only looking for publicity, and trying to cause trouble. If I set-up a club, I do so on my terms, not theirs.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by simu
Corinthian, hearing about your experience at UCD, I became dismayed. What feminists should be aiming for is to encourage men and women to get along and treat each other with respect, not trying to "get men back" for discrimination against women in the past. Stupidity is distributed generously among ppl of both sexes:)

And that really is the problem. Women are just as capable of imposing glass ceilings on men, in such industries as marketing and HR, as men have been in the past. Men increasingly find themselves confronted with double standards that view jokes ridiculing men as funny and the same joke ridiculing women as offensive.

Apparently, I’m told, women can’t sexually harass men either...

And many women expect equality on a basis of convenience, where equal pay in work is demanded, while the man picking up the tab for everything is expected. I doubt that there is a man reading this who has not been expected to do some heavy lifting at work at some stage (regardless of his occupation), while the women present watch on, apparently too fragile to break a sweat - and while I’ll accept that men are physically stronger, women are not that weak either.

As a result, as well as the fact that both genders do value the right to associate with their own from time to time (e.g. boys’/girls’ nights out), one will find that the sympathy that men would have felt towards the case for equality with regard to golf clubs, has largely evaporated.

Of course, my experience of most feminist groups is that they haven’t noticed this shift in male opinion yet as they tend to limit their contact with men as a rule.

DeVore

I agree with Sparks on this one...

If they are using public money, then they should fall under the public laws of equality of access. I dont want my tax payers cash to go funding peoples private clubs.

However, if they arent using public money or property, then frankly let them do what they want and have whatever rules they want.

Like ****, I too have become pissed off with the constant whinging about equality so long as its *their* equality. Wheres the paternity leave? Paternity rights in this country are a joke.
Sexual harrassment of men is there alright but no guy would be taken seriously if he claimed his female boss was harrassing him.
You are still expected to hold doors open, give up seats, do any manual labour thats knocking about etc... not by all women but by a considerable number.

I'm not a woman-hater, in fact I've been quite supportive of womens rights before but like a lot of men, I'm sick of being called a bastard with all the others and frankly ladies, yer on yer own now and its everyone for themselves.


DeV.

ps: If a man talks in the forest and no woman hears him... is he still wrong?

Lemming

Originally posted by DeVore

ps: If a man talks in the forest and no woman hears him... is he still wrong?

Yes. Since by feminist logic he's wrong by default before he even opens his mouth. He's a "man"


My thoughts on this matter are kinda along side Sparks & DeV's. That said though, if it's a private club using private funding, then it's a case of "whilst you're in MY house ...."

On the unequal "equality", whilst I do find some of the man-bashing jokes genuinely funny, I roll me eyes every time some ad comes on that's just as funny but it's a woman getting the brunt of it and then there's a slew of complaints.

from the same muppets no doubt laughing their arses off at the male-equivalent ads/whatnot.

gandalf

There is one simple solution to this problem ....BAN GOLF !!!

It might get the majority of the director wasters in the country to do some bloody work

Gandalf.

Manach

2nded

DeVore

Passed!!

Golf is men in ugly pants, walking....

Its a good walk spoiled!

DeV.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

/me searches for his little book of golf jokes


i'll beat you yet dev

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/869827?view=Eircomnet&check=yes

Equality body to bring top golf club to court
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 12th June, 2003

The Equality Authority is taking Portmarnock Golf Club in Co Dublin to court for its policy of excluding women members, writes Nuala Haughey, Social and Racial Affairs Correspondent.

Portmarnock is due to host the €2 million Nissan Irish Open, one of the Europe's most important golf tournaments, from July 24th to 27th. Bord Fáilte is providing €250,000 in sponsorship.

In what amounts to a test case, the authority will ask the District Court to declare the all-male club in breach of the Equal Status Act, which outlaws discrimination in the provision of goods and services. If the case succeeds, the club could lose its licence to sell alcohol for 30 days. The authority yesterday notified the club of its intention to bring it to court.

A spokesman for the club said it had been advised it is not contravening the Act. It has also emerged the club yesterday initiated proceedings in the High Court seeking to "establish precisely its position" in relation to the Act.

The Equality Authority's action is being taken under a section of the Act which has not been contested in the courts before. This provides that a club shall not be considered to be discriminating where "its principal purpose is to cater only for the needs of a particular gender by reason only of it refusing membership to persons not of that gender".

The authority's chief executive, Mr Niall Crowley, said it was taking the proceedings as exclusion of women from golf club membership was "inevitably part of a wider context of gender inequality in society."

He said that while women were permitted to play golf in the club and could take jobs there, the fact that they could not be members meant they were "denied any decision-making role in the club". The policy also denied them access to benefits that flowed from membership, including social and economic benefits.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/871555?view=Eircomnet

Golf club fights for right to exclude women
From:ireland.com
Thursday, 12th June, 2003

A Co Dublin golf club at the centre of a row over its exclusion of women members has begun High Court proceedings to try and determine that it is not contravening the Equal Status Act.

The move by the all-male Portmarnock Golf Club is in response to legal proceedings in the District Court taken by the Equality Authority over the issue.

In a statement issued today, the club said it had been advised that its rules do not contravene the terms of the Equal Status Act 2000, and it is going to the High Court to establish precisely its position in relation to the Act.

The club said it believed the High Court to be the appropriate forum to determine whether clubs fall within the Act in relation to freedom of association and looks forward to the Court's decision on the matter.

Women are allowed play golf on the links course but cannot take jobs there or become members - which, according to the Equality Authority, denies them a decision-making role in the club.

The timing of such proceedings is far from ideal as the club prepares to host the high profile €2 million Nissan Irish Open next month from July 24th to 27th.

Following a break of 12 years, the Irish Open will return to the links venue, which staged the event 12 times between 1976 and 1990.

The club are really pushing it with "Women are allowed play golf on the links course but cannot take jobs there or become members " (by "jobs", I presume they mean club officerships, not actual employment). This means they are the provider of goods and / or services and are not entitled to protection from the part of the act that restricts drinks licences. Yes, they can discriminate (for the purposes of freedom of association / disassociation), but not with the privilege of a drinks licence.

Will post more.

Hobart

The EA are going down a road they really should not. What next? Men demanding the right to be part of Lesbian Groups?

It's like a scene from The life of Brian (" I demand the right to have a baby". "But your a Man"? " I still want the Right "? lol).


I don't agree with the bigots and idiots in Portmarnock. But I do support their right to be stupid. So let them have their little club if they want. Male only company, I don't think so.

DeVore

Aye... what Hobart said.

Apart from the 250,000 from Bord Failte (who should have known better!) I really dont care what they do there. I dont object to all male clubs (or all female clubs) so long as they dont get tax payers money.

For the record despite my intense dislike of racists I also wouldnt object to an all-white club (again presuming that it didnt get money from taxpayers) or an all black club for that matter.

I *would* watch them closely though! Very closely.

DeV.

Imposter

Originally posted by DeVore
Apart from the 250,000 from Bord Failte (who should have known better!)....

The sponsorship is not attached to the club but to the event which is being hosted by the club. It makes sense for Bord Failte as they are trying to promote Ireland and why not use an international event which will get European and worldwide interest and hopefully portray a positive image of Ireland.

If anything the problem here is whoever made the decision to host the event in Portmarock in the first place. Then again it is only men that are playing at this event but that's another kettle of fish (for those of you who put fish in your kettles:))!

Orion

Originally posted by DeVore
Aye... what Hobart said.

Apart from the 250,000 from Bord Failte (who should have known better!) I really dont care what they do there. I dont object to all male clubs (or all female clubs) so long as they dont get tax payers money.

DeV.

The tournament is being sponsored by Bord Failte. The simple reason is that a major part of our tourism industry is based around golf. IMHO Bord Failte are right to sponsor it regardless of the membership rules of the club.

Personally I disagree with the court action. Any club (regardless of the sponsorship of a competition run by an external organisation) has the right to limit its membership to whoever it chooses. If it chooses to be a men only club then so be it. It didn't hurt the Masters in Augusta and hasn't hurt the Open either which has been played in a number of mens clubs.

Reminds me of a story in the Belfry (I think). A woman was playing golf there and after her round she headed for the clubhouse still in her golf gear. The club secretary was at the door and she asked if it was ok to go in in her golf shoes. His reply? "Madam, your shoes may enter, but you may not!"

Victor

Originally posted by Macros42
The tournament is being sponsored by Bord Failte. The simple reason is that a major part of our tourism industry is based around golf. IMHO Bord Failte are right to sponsor it regardless of the membership rules of the club.

Giving the sponsorship is tacit approval of their behavior by association.

Originally posted by Macros42
It didn't hurt the Masters in Augusta and hasn't hurt the Open either which has been played in a number of mens clubs.

Wasn't it Augusta that Tiger Woods wasn't allowed play in (outside tournaments)?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Victor
Giving the sponsorship is tacit approval of their behavior by association.

No doubt supplying the club with electricity and water is also tacit approval of their behavior by association...

...however, state and semi-state bodies should have a clear code of ethics in such cases (many fund managers will, for example).

Nonetheless, the club in question is not being brought to court over a question of sponsorship, so this is a moot point.

Hobart

Originally posted by Victor
Giving the sponsorship is tacit approval of their behavior by association.

Would'nt agree with that at all. As has been pointed out the money is for the specific tournament and not for the club. Board Failte are also part-sponsoring the Ryder Cup here. The fact that women are'nt allow play in that does not mean that they are anti-feminist. Golf is a great draw for visitors to this country and as such Board Failte are behaving perfectly in their role in this case.

Wasn't it Augusta that Tiger Woods wasn't allowed play in (outside tournaments)?

Did'nt here that before. He's a member there so he can play when he likes.

Victor

Originally posted by Imposter
Bord Failte are sponsoring it because it is getting Europewide possibly global attention …..

….to our discriminatory behaviour that ranks us 29 out of 29 in OECD countries.

Originally posted by Samara
...but in reality the women who are staging the challenge must have very little to do.

It’s not, it’s the club are challenging the right of the Equality Authority to query the club right to have a drinks licence.

Originally posted by Samara
Why don't they go out and try to help women who are experiencing abuse at home or a million other genuine causes.

Because the Equality Authority have a different job to do – empowerment must come from the top and the bottom.

Originally posted by Samara
This issue has come up before and my take on it is still the same, you have single mother groups right? Therefore they are discriminating against single fathers.....

I have never enquired into the matter, but I suspect there are very few if any such groups that discourage single fathers from attending.

Originally posted by Samara
It's human nature to want a little time to yourself with your male or female friends only, this search for equal rights sometimes gets taken too far.

No it hasn’t, it’s been the law for several years that you can’t discriminate in the supply of goods and services (limited exceptions) and that discriminating bodies can’t have a drinks licence.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
McWilliams asked Crowley whether or not the ICA should be taken to court for not allowing Male members (fairly tongue-in-cheek-like). Crowley replied, that no they wouldn't, because the organisation had a gender purpose, i.e. an organisation specifically set up for women. I think he used a different phrase for it, but I can't remember it now.

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Anyhow, McWilliams suggested that this meant that all Portmarnock had to do was to change it's name to "Portmarnock Men's Golf Club". You know, a place where MEN could get together and play golf, similar to the ICA - a place where WOMEN get together and erm, I dunno, bake scones?

Not the point – they allow women in, but only so far – it is neither a “Men’s Club” nor a “Men’s Golf Club”, it is a club that is happy to take women’s money, but not give them representation. The Boston Tea Party comes to mind.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What caught my attention was that I was not invited to the reception afterwards.

They were obviously intimidated by your impeccable dress sense...

Originally posted by simu
Above all, ppl are individuals and should be treated as such. I think the idea of segregation based on gender, whether in schools, clubs, whatever is silly, unless it's something specifically related to the sex of a person, for example a support group for ppl with breast cancer(even then, you could have a male co-ordinator).

Something like 5% of breast cancer patients are men, and short of the “would you like to look at my amputated breast” sessions, I doubt any such a group bans male sufferers. Now testicular cancer may be another matter, but Marla Singer would still want to join.

The first rule of Fight Club …

Originally posted by simu
Maybe I'm wandering from the main topic of the thread but I wonder, given that ppl are becomming more and more concerned with the standards of different secondary schools, could it ever come about that parents would sue a single-sex school with a good reputation for not granting a place to their child who happens to be of the other sex?

There have been suggestions that where there are only two single sex schools in a locality and one doesn’t “perform” / provide, there may be a case against it.

Originally posted by kamobe
I cannot understand why there's a lobby group trying to break into a golf club.

The women are already in, it’s just they aren’t allowed “play all the holes”.

Originally posted by kamobe
Why not join another one, or set up your on own woman only club (that'll learn 'em).

Because they are members of Portmarnock already and perhaps because Portmarnock is closest (that said the Fingal area is over-golfed).

Originally posted by kamobe
They're only looking for publicity, and trying to cause trouble.

Who?

Originally posted by The Corinthian
And that really is the problem. Women are just as capable of imposing glass ceilings on men, in such industries as marketing and HR,

Oh, come on, dye your hair blonde , get breast implants and you can do marketing as well

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Apparently, I’m told, women can’t sexually harass men either...

That’s because most men grab harass back (personally, I prefer to up the ante ).

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I doubt that there is a man reading this who has not been expected to do some heavy lifting at work at some stage (regardless of his occupation), while the women present watch on, apparently too fragile to break a sweat - and while I’ll accept that men are physically stronger, women are not that weak either.

Actually employment legislation protects women from heavy lifting (11kg? – a woman shouldn’t lift a full box of copier paper). As one Russian woman said “While American women were fighting for the right to work in mines, Russian women were fighting for the right to not work in mines.” (In England, women were originally banned from working in mines on decency, not health and safety, grounds as many miners, of both sexes, would wear little clothing in the extreme heat).

Originally posted by DeVore
ps: If a man talks in the forest and no woman hears him... is he still wrong?

If no one is watching, does a woman still have a fat butt?

Originally posted by gandalf
There is one simple solution to this problem ....BAN GOLF !!! It might get the majority of the director wasters in the country to do some bloody work

Hear, hear. /me smacks the brother for taking Friday off.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
No doubt supplying the club with electricity and water is also tacit approval of their behavior by association...

Yes it is, on a much lesser scale, however (a) the money flow is in the opposite direction (b) I suspect the Electrticity Supply Acts mandate that anyone looking for electricity must be supplied.

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Nonetheless, the club in question is not being brought to court over a question of sponsorship, so this is a moot point.

No it is the drinks licence (not right) issue, one of the main sources of funding for most clubs.

Originally posted by Hobart
Would'nt agree with that at all. As has been pointed out the money is for the specific tournament and not for the club.

But it is the club that benefits from the cold hard cash.

DeVore

My point was that Bord Failte should have picked somewhere neutral to host the event (presuming they chose it in the first place).

The international publicity for Irish tourism will be tarnished as this blows out of proportion.

I also feel that this is more about politics then equality... I dont see these so called "activists" when it comes to single mothers and inner city poverty. Those arent "cool" issues.

DeV.

yankinlk

If the worst that can happen is they lose a license to sell alcohol then let them go to court...you dont need alcohol to enjoy a game of golf. I have been to many pro golf events and I dont think ive ever had a beer (and I love to drink).

The amount sponsored is pittance in the world of golf - if the big name golfers come over its because they love to play in this country.

If the women protest this event I hope is a big a shambles as the last one in the states - NO ONE CARES!

Imposter

Originally posted by Victor
….to our discriminatory behaviour that ranks us 29 out of 29 in OECD countries.

That's not very relevant here. That statistic is largly due to racism and age discrimination imo.

Not the point – they allow women in, but only so far – it is neither a “Men’s Club” nor a “Men’s Golf Club”, it is a club that is happy to take women’s money, but not give them representation.
The women are already in, it’s just they aren’t allowed “play all the holes”.
Because they are members of Portmarnock already and perhaps because Portmarnock is closest (that said the Fingal area is over-golfed).

Correct me if i'm wrong here (and i've no doubt you will ) but it's a club with private members. If a man, who is not a member, turned up to play golf he could pay green fees and play. So can women. AFAIK women are not members in any sense of the word member and that is what these groups are complaining about. They are saying that women should be allowed to become members.

No it is the drinks licence (not right) issue, one of the main sources of funding for most clubs. But it is the club that benefits from the cold hard cash.

Night Clubs come to mind here for some reason. The management has the right to refuse admission, and they do and on far less open grounds than the golf club and I don't see the equality authority trying to stop their licences!

I think the main argument here is what is a club? Are they allowed to make their own rules and on what grounds are they entitled to a drinks licence?

Hobart

Originally posted by DeVore
My point was that Bord Failte should have picked somewhere neutral to host the event (presuming they chose it in the first place).

The international publicity for Irish tourism will be tarnished as this blows out of proportion.

I also feel that this is more about politics then equality... I dont see these so called "activists" when it comes to single mothers and inner city poverty. Those arent "cool" issues.

DeV.

I disagree. Bord Failte should not involve themselves with the internal issues of a golf club. Anybody who plays golf will tell you that women are discrminated against even where they are members. (And Bord Failte would have little influence over they choice of venue in the first place)

To most golfers all around the world the fact that Portmarnock does not allow lady members will not make one iota of a difference to them as Golf is this way in most places .So the 'Golfing' aspect of the tourism will not be affected IMO.

It is all about politics. It another so called 'popular' issue for the politicol masses to get involved with. Maybe we should get a few (more) TD's onto Boards.ie and show them how not everything is a democracy.:p

I am still flabergasted that the EA have taken this on tho. If they are successful, in this case, I am goin to start a campaign to have the Evening Herald boycotted for their blantent sponshership of the Women's Mini Marathon.

Hobart

Originally posted by yankinlk
If the worst that can happen is they lose a license to sell alcohol then let them go to court...you dont need alcohol to enjoy a game of golf. I have been to many pro golf events and I dont think ive ever had a beer (and I love to drink).

There are very simple aways around the Licencing laws. If their drink licence is revoked it will have no effect on their ability to have alcohol consunmed on the premises.

rubadub

Originally posted by Victor
[BActually employment legislation protects women from heavy lifting (11kg? – a woman shouldn’t lift a full box of copier paper). As one Russian woman said “While American women were fighting for the right to work in mines, Russian women were fighting for the right to not work in mines.” (In England, women were originally banned from working in mines on decency, not health and safety, grounds as many miners, of both sexes, would wear little clothing in the extreme heat).. [/B]

are there any other sexually discriminating employment legislations? how much is a man allowed to lift? its accepted that men are generally physically stronger than women. it is also accepted that women are able to cope better at multi-tasking than men, i doubt there are limits focusing on this (would be hard to put a figure down etc). women also live longer than men so should their retirement/pensionable age be increased (this one does have available data)?. men require more calories per day so should their lunch allowance be greater? women weigh less so should their tickets for buses and planes be cheaper?
interesting in england that they were concerned with the womens "decency" and didnt make separate male/female mines, similar to gyms and swimming pools where female showers are more likely to be cubicles than the male showers, womens privacy/decency seems more important. nightclubs also get away with "women in free" without opposition but i wonder what would happen if it was "men in free". people will reply that the men should be out campaigning but most cant be bothered arguing or dont care, the only thing that annoys them is women groups like this only complain about negative discrimination and never question any positive discrimination they may recieve, they also never complain about discrimination against men so they themselves are sexually discrimninatory. they should be groups of PEOPLE campaigning against sexual discrimination against PEOPLE.

male stripper-harmless bit of a laugh with the girls
female stripper-poor girl being degraded by a bunch of sick perverts.

stupid male in ad-bit of a laugh with the girls
stupid female in ad-degredation of women and offensive

man whipping a woman in a porn-total degredation, extremely offensive, should be banned in all countries
woman whipping a man in a porn-would ye look at that eejit! gets shown on sky one at 9pm

2 wrongs dont make a right. women can be sexist and black people can be racist.

Orion

Originally posted by Hobart re: Tiger playing in Augusta
Did'nt here that before. He's a member there so he can play when he likes. [/B]

Actually he's not a real member. Winners of the masters are honourary members and there are restrictions on them. For starters the green jacket has to stay at the club.

Augusta used to have a "whites only" rule and therefore Tiger wasn't allowed in the gate. This was changed only recently. Hootie is actually a very progressive man. While he was in banking his bank was the only one in the area to give loans to coloureds. He was also instrumental in getting black politicians elected in the South and had a university named after a black man.

As for women in Augusta - it will happen. All Martha Burk did there was put the clock back. Hootie won't be pushed around by anyone and he was pi$$ed off by the tactics used by Burk who doesn't even have any interest in golf. Hootie will allow women in in his own time.

Captain Trips

I think that the difference between this ongoing emasculation of our society and racism is that there were no benefits to being on the receiving end of racism, it was generally speaking, all negative.

Whereas, as mentioned above, females have a long-standing history of positive discrimination. And with recent developments, people wonder why male suicides increase?

1. Free in for women at nightclubs.
2. Going to a nightclub, a group of guys will get refused if say, more than 4, but throw in a girl, or a group of girls, and there'll be no question
3. Cheaper car insurance. For no particular reason. Risk for me is determined by some magical X chromosome. ALthough I have never claimed, have been driving for 8 years, should I not have cheaper insurance by now than a female driving a larger car but a shorter driving history
4. Multitudes of women-only clubs. For example, fitness clubs, etc., search Google for a list. Yes they are mostly lesbian clubs judging from the the domains they are under.
5. In Ireland, an almost universal alignment with women in the eyes of divorce and separation.
6. Paternity rights, such as paternity leave, as sorely lacking.

We are expected to hold doors open, be polite, and yet put up with anti-male advertising and anti-male politics. I do all that, because that magical X chromosome also helps me to simply not give a ****.

This recent phenomenon in our history has been encapsulated in numerous reports on the vast increases in alcohol and cigarette consumption, along with promiscuity on behalf of women.

So a golf club, a GOLF club, for christ's sake, says members can only be male. Why the hell not. It's their club, privately owned and funded. They have cared and enhanced it enough that the government sees fit to authorise money to hold an international event there, because this satan worhsipping evil men only place could never actually be any good without women, right?

So this very nice club, of which I am not a member or probably ever will be, is men only, well looked after, internationally recognised as a place where golfing greats play, and women want in to do what exactly? Just for the sake of it? We are not talking about abuse to people, a sick S&M club, public hangings of women or refusing to employ them, or even allow them play.

Until women accept that they are not men and are in fact women, society will never change. Becoming men doesn't make you more of a woman. Get over it. Start your own club, make it women only, heck, you'll probably GET funding from the government. You see a men's group complaining? No, because we won't give a ****. I think that's what pisses feminists off the most, that they can't control men totally, can't make them give a **** about some stupid cause. Yeah, getting voting rights, etc., all essential, as it was for black people. But for ****'s sake. Do you feel like a second class citizen because some golf club doesn't want a lounge full of feminist attitude?

I suppose they could get out of it like the "No Homers" club.

fisty

I say let them have their male only rule.

The women are allowed to play golf, what more do they want, its simply a tradition that they don't want to change as far as Club positions are concerned.

People are making a mountain out of a molehill and crying discrimination, no.

It's a matter of the people who made the club what it is want to adhere to old tradition, nothing wrong with that.

bizmark

woman are getting away with FAR tomuch .Its really time we male stood up and draw aline this far and no more..... Then get our arse is gear and get our own "rights" proteched .Im sick to death with bull****.In my mind the glove,s are off we male,s have been attacked from ever angle for over 50 year,s and i had anuff :mad:

Samara

Seems to me the thread has been turned into low level women bashing!! Me,myself being female *shock horror* have already stated that I don't agree with such actions and protests by female groups against golf clubs etc yet now I see that some of the menfolk are grouping all womankind into the same over the top feminist bracket.

woman are getting away with FAR tomuch

Maybe you should start your own men only action group to sort all us womanfolk out

Going to a nightclub, a group of guys will get refused if say, more than 4, but throw in a girl, or a group of girls, and there'll be no question

Well about 99% of the time it's male bouncers who decide on this...address your own gender on this one!

We are expected to hold doors open, be polite, and yet put up with anti-male advertising and anti-male politics.

I'm perfectly capable of holding doors open for myself and never expect any man to do it for me, politeness to a certain degree I expect from all people regardless of gender. Yes I do laugh at some ads which you would probably describe as anti-male but I do not protest at anti-female ads either...life's too short to give a fcuk about such trivial things

ps: If a man talks in the forest and no woman hears him... is he still wrong?

Most probably

If no one is watching, does a woman still have a fat butt?

Only if she had to begin with

simu

woman are getting away with FAR tomuch (quote)

Out of curiosity, would you care to expand on this?
Any examples?

The Corinthian

Originally posted by simu
Any examples?

Owning property...

Wearing clothes...

Thinking they have the lobes for business...

OK... Sorry... I think I'll stop now...

simu

Wow. I am converted. Now going off to join my local "masculinists" organisation:)

Victor

Originally posted by Captain Trips
1. Free in for women at nightclubs.

Does this still happen?

Originally posted by Captain Trips
2. Going to a nightclub, a group of guys will get refused if say, more than 4, but throw in a girl, or a group of girls, and there'll be no question

Night clubs don't like large groups, especially of young men as they are seen as a risk (could there be a statistical basis for this?).

Originally posted by Captain Trips
3. Cheaper car insurance. For no particular reason. Risk for me is determined by some magical X chromosome. ALthough I have never claimed, have been driving for 8 years, should I not have cheaper insurance by now than a female driving a larger car but a shorter driving history

Statisticly based and legal.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
4. Multitudes of women-only clubs. For example, fitness clubs, etc., search Google for a list. Yes they are mostly lesbian clubs judging from the the domains they are under.

Multitudes? I know of one woman-only gym (presumably allowed because of it's small size and unable to provide separate facilities). What sort of google searches do you do?

Originally posted by Captain Trips
5. In Ireland, an almost universal alignment with women in the eyes of divorce and separation.

Because of historical imbalances which mean that abusive men force these women to seek divorce.

Originally posted by Captain Trips
6. Paternity rights, such as paternity leave, as sorely lacking.

i agree they are in a poor state, however they are impoving - adoptive paternity leave exists. Remember men don't need to recover from pregnancy (not in the same way anyway).

Originally posted by Captain Trips
We are expected to hold doors open,

I hold doors for most people. If the don't accept it / aren't clued in - screw 'em.

amp

Unless this thread gets back to serious debate then it's future looks bleak.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Victor
Night clubs don't like large groups, especially of young men as they are seen as a risk (could there be a statistical basis for this?).

Five guys and one girl

Statisticly based and legal.

If insurance companies can discriminate for financial reasons - that is ultimately what they are doing - should other types of firms not do likewise and not hire women between 25 and 35 because they’re statistically more likely to get pregnant?

Because of historical imbalances which mean that abusive men force these women to seek divorce.

Historical imbalances? Boo-hoo. Stop feeling guilty for being a white man. Women were not brought to this country in chains; funny shoes, maybe, but not chains.

simu

Women were not brought to this country in chains(quote)

No, but they were treated as little more than "breeders" for centuries:)

However, I do agree that the insurance companies policy of discriminating on the basis of gender seems very dodgy. If you're going to make distinctions based on statistics, where do you stop. For example, why not factor in things like whether a person drinks or not, what time they leave for work in the morning(i.e. maybe accidents are more likely at peak traffic times), how far they have to drive to and from work, how susceptible they are to feeling despondent during winter months due to lack of sunshine and be less careful driving, how likely they are to get pissed off when they hear a cr*p song on the radio and get more agressive and so on ad infinitum.

Then again, there's a fair share of men working in the insurance business and any decisions they take (whether men or women) are based on screwing their customers and making as much profit as possible, not advancing the cause of feminism.

Same with nightclubs, the owners probably figure if they leave women get in for free, it will attract more paying male customers who are desperate to score! Personally, I've never come accross this in Ireland though but then again I avoid meat-market type clubs like the plague!

Orion

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Owning property...

Wearing clothes...

Thinking they have the lobes for business...

OK... Sorry... I think I'll stop now...

You forgot:

having the right to vote
having the right to read

hmmm....we gave them those rights didn't we?