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Time frame to stand over a job once finished

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  • 29-04-2021 11:36am
    #1
    JL spark
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭


    As a contractor, how long would you stand over a job , (once it’s finished and all paper work done ) if a fault develops say a low IR reading , by someone else , say drilling and caught a lighting cable ,
    A discussion I’m having with safe electric at the moment,


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    #2
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    If you comply with the rules and someone else drills into your cable I can’t see how you can be held responsible regardless of the timeframe.


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    #3
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,729 ✭✭✭meercat


    2011 wrote: »
    If you comply with the rules and someone else drills into your cable I can’t see how you can be held responsible regardless of the timeframe.

    This


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    #4
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    A low IR reading could be due to ingress of moisture. Let’s assume that the suitable IP rated devices have been selected to suit ambient conditions.
    The low IR may be due to external factors such as a leak develops over a socket outlet. Again the REC should not be held responsible for this type of scenario.


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    #5
    JL spark
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭JL spark


    What happened was , I had my yearly inspection,
    Carried out the IR test , as asked , had a very low reading, I started to to look for fault , after half hour inspector said to leave it , (time crunch I guess)
    Then the paper work , gave me 5 points for it , 2 more points for a led bulb less than 500 from wardrobe door , (units went in after ) so total 7 points , I was pissed ,
    So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results,
    Got a answer this morning, it’s not on
    They paper they said but would expect 2 years 🙈
    Sound like a joke to me ,
    What do ye think ,
    Low IR was a cable pinched in a out building, (which was newly wired 3 months ago and tested fine , ) that was also the last time I was on that site
    Sorry for long post


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    #6
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    JL spark wrote: »
    What happened was , I had my yearly inspection,
    Carried out the IR test , as asked , had a very low reading, I started to to look for fault , after half hour inspector said to leave it , (time crunch I guess)

    Where the blame lies for this low IR reading depends entirely on the nature of the fault / what caused it. Its a little like installing DB properly and then the homeowner turns the room it is in onto a shower room. No longer suitable for a DB n, but not the fault of the sparks either.

    I would suggest that you find the fault, take photos, put a report together and submit to RECI.
    Then the paper work , gave me 5 points for it

    Very unfair unless it can be clearly demonstrated that this was your fault, and clearly this is inconclusive.
    2 more points for a led bulb less than 500 from wardrobe door , (units went in after )

    That is b0ll0x!
    so total 7 points , I was pissed

    So would I be.
    So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results

    I think this is the wrong approach.
    It is not about how long do you have to stand over the results.
    It is all about what caused the failure and from this who is responsible for the failure (hopefully not you).
    Got a answer this morning, it’s not on
    They paper they said but would expect 2 years

    That is a stupid answer IMHO and suggests a lack of technical understanding.
    A cable can pass an IR test by a country mile and then fail 5 minutes later is someone does something stupid (such as driling into it).


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    #7
    JL spark
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭JL spark


    2011 wrote: »
    Where the blame lies for this low IR reading depends entirely on the nature of the fault / what caused it. Its a little like installing DB properly and then the homeowner turns the room it is in onto a shower room. No longer suitable for a DB n, but not the fault of the sparks either.

    I would suggest that you find the fault, take photos, put a report together and submit to RECI.



    Very unfair unless it can be clearly demonstrated that this was your fault, and clearly this is inconclusive.



    That is b0ll0x!



    So would I be.



    I think this is the wrong approach.
    It is not about how long do you have to stand over the results.
    It is all about what caused the failure and from this who is responsible for the failure (hopefully not you).



    That is a stupid answer IMHO and suggests a lack of technical understanding.
    A cable can pass an IR test by a country mile and then fail 5 minutes later is someone does something stupid (such as driling into it).

    What do I do now ? I was chatting by email , and now they have stopped replying, (head inspector)
    I think that 2 year thing is a balls ,
    I nearly chat to my solicitor about it


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    #8
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    JL spark wrote: »
    What do I do now ? I was chatting by email , and now they have stopped replying, (head inspector)

    This is what I would do:
    1) Find the fault
    2) Take photos
    3) Put together a report with photos and better still have someone independent (that carries some weight) backing up your report (by signing it). Maybe this independent person would be the home owner? Or maybe an engineer.

    I would then arrange a meeting with RECI and present the report.
    Keep all discussions polite, firm, professional, technical and without emotion.
    I nearly chat to my solicitor about it

    I certainly would not do this. Once you "go legal" there is no going back and the costs can escalate. Also it can go on for years.


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    #9
    meercat
    Registered Users Posts: 4,729 ✭✭✭meercat


    JL spark wrote: »
    What do I do now ? I was chatting by email , and now they have stopped replying, (head inspector)
    I think that 2 year thing is a balls ,
    I nearly chat to my solicitor about it

    I’d imagine you could request the disciplinary panel to review this for you.


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    #10
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    meercat wrote: »
    I’d imagine you could request the disciplinary panel to review this for you.

    Yes, I would argue potential repetitional damage based on inconclusive information.


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    #11
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Out of interest how low was the IR reading??


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    #12
    JL spark
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭JL spark


    2011 wrote: »
    Out of interest how low was the IR reading??

    Dead short neutral to earth ,


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    #13
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    JL spark wrote: »
    Dead short neutral to earth ,

    The good news is dead shorts tends to be easier to find. Also less likely to be due to water.


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    #14
    josak
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭josak


    JL spark wrote: »
    What happened was , I had my yearly inspection,
    Carried out the IR test , as asked , had a very low reading, I started to to look for fault , after half hour inspector said to leave it , (time crunch I guess)
    Then the paper work , gave me 5 points for it , 2 more points for a led bulb less than 500 from wardrobe door , (units went in after ) so total 7 points , I was pissed ,
    So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results,
    Got a answer this morning, it’s not on
    They paper they said but would expect 2 years ��
    Sound like a joke to me ,
    What do ye think ,
    Low IR was a cable pinched in a out building, (which was newly wired 3 months ago and tested fine , ) that was also the last time I was on that site
    Sorry for long post

    What a disgrace of an inspection. IMO inspectors primary role should be to help and encourage, and only in more severe cases issue 'points' or whatever. This is the exact opposite.

    Also, is there a rule that a light can't be closer than 500mm from a door? Never heard that before....


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    #15
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    JL spark wrote: »
    As a contractor, how long would you stand over a job , (once it’s finished and all paper work done ) if a fault develops say a low IR reading , by someone else , say drilling and caught a lighting cable ,
    A discussion I’m having with safe electric at the moment,

    The answer is a consumer (if your client was such) can pursue you for up to six years after the work is complete to have you remedy a defect in your workmanship or defective goods supplied by you at the time. The important bit is the defect being present at the time of delivery by you, and you may of course dispute such any such assertion.

    I think the suggestion of gathering the details, photos etc. and submitting a considered report to SafeElectric outlining the position and that these deficiencies in no way relate to poor workmanship on your behalf is a good idea. It should be non-acrimonious and to the point. You may need to rely on it in the future if you were to be awarded more ‘points’ and some sanction was contemplated.

    I wouldn’t engage a solicitor at this point. You have nothing to gain, and lots to loose. You are also drawing unwanted attention to yourself.


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    #16
    Andrea B.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    "So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results,
    Got a answer this morning, it’s not on
    They paper they said but would expect 2 years 🙈"
    So it probably depends on their mood.
    I can understand your anger.


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    #17
    Jake.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭Jake.


    Meter Readings are only really good on the day they're taken


    RCD trip times, IR and fault loop impedance can change afterwards


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    #18
    Sparks365
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Sparks365


    I’m confused with this one!

    So Safe Electric Inspector carry’s out an inspection,
    Asks you to carry out an IR test.
    You get a dead short.
    The inspector gives you half an hour to try and resolve it.
    You can’t find or resolve it in that time,
    Then you are pissed that this fault is recorded on the paperwork,
    I thought that safe electric were a regulatory authority?
    What would be the point of an inspector carrying out an inspection on an installation with you, asking you to do a test, the test failed and then not record it?
    I see it said here that they are supposed help and not report on site faults?
    Are they a training body?
    What would be the purpose of the inspection if they don’t record the fault.
    I’m shocked that the inspector allowed you half an hour to find the fault, wouldn’t have thought they were allowed to do that ?
    Giving you time to find a fault seems more like a training body than an inspectorate


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    #19
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Sparks365 wrote: »
    Then you are pissed that this fault is recorded on the paperwork,

    I haven’t seen anything to support this.


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    #20
    Sparks365
    Registered Users Posts: 14 ✭Sparks365


    2011 wrote: »
    I haven’t seen anything to support this.

    “ I was pissed ,
    So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results,”


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    #21
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    Sparks365 wrote: »
    “ I was pissed ,
    So I emailed reci last night asking about how long I’m to stand over test results,”


    Pissed about the “5 points” not that a fault was recorded.


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    #22
    JL spark
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭JL spark


    Sparks365 wrote: »
    I’m confused with this one!

    So Safe Electric Inspector carry’s out an inspection,
    Asks you to carry out an IR test.
    You get a dead short.
    The inspector gives you half an hour to try and resolve it.
    You can’t find or resolve it in that time,
    Then you are pissed that this fault is recorded on the paperwork,
    I thought that safe electric were a regulatory authority?
    What would be the point of an inspector carrying out an inspection on an installation with you, asking you to do a test, the test failed and then not record it?
    I see it said here that they are supposed help and not report on site faults?
    Are they a training body?
    What would be the purpose of the inspection if they don’t record the fault.
    I’m shocked that the inspector allowed you half an hour to find the fault, wouldn’t have thought they were allowed to do that ?
    Giving you time to find a fault seems more like a training body than an inspectorate

    I don’t mind the fault been on the paper work ,it’s the (here’s the 5 points it’s your fault ) might of been less than half hour,
    Some one looking over your shoulder time slows down ,


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    #23
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    Sparks365 wrote: »
    I’m confused with this one!

    So Safe Electric Inspector carry’s out an inspection,
    Asks you to carry out an IR test.
    You get a dead short.
    The inspector gives you half an hour to try and resolve it.
    You can’t find or resolve it in that time,
    Then you are pissed that this fault is recorded on the paperwork,
    I thought that safe electric were a regulatory authority?
    What would be the point of an inspector carrying out an inspection on an installation with you, asking you to do a test, the test failed and then not record it?
    I see it said here that they are supposed help and not report on site faults?
    Are they a training body?
    What would be the purpose of the inspection if they don’t record the fault.
    I’m shocked that the inspector allowed you half an hour to find the fault, wouldn’t have thought they were allowed to do that ?
    Giving you time to find a fault seems more like a training body than an inspectorate

    The difficulty is that defects or a non-compliant arrangement can occur after the contractor has completed all works and over which he has no control whatsoever.
    It’s reasonable that SafeElectric would identify these issues, but not reasonable that they would impose a sanction on the contractor in a circumstance where there was no evidence of wrongdoing by him.


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    #24
    Bruthal.
    Registered Users Posts: 209 ✭✭Bruthal.


    Sparks365 wrote: »
    I’m confused with this one!

    So Safe Electric Inspector carry’s out an inspection,
    Asks you to carry out an IR test.
    You get a dead short.
    The inspector gives you half an hour to try and resolve it.
    You can’t find or resolve it in that time,
    Then you are pissed that this fault is recorded on the paperwork,
    I thought that safe electric were a regulatory authority?
    What would be the point of an inspector carrying out an inspection on an installation with you, asking you to do a test, the test failed and then not record it?
    I see it said here that they are supposed help and not report on site faults?
    Are they a training body?
    What would be the purpose of the inspection if they don’t record the fault.
    I’m shocked that the inspector allowed you half an hour to find the fault, wouldn’t have thought they were allowed to do that ?
    Giving you time to find a fault seems more like a training body than an inspectorate

    So you would be happy if an owner later builds a press around the DB, and an inspector gives you a few minutes to fix your mistake?


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    #25
    EHP
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭EHP


    If RECI have stopped replying go to the CRU as they are responsible for RECI. If what you have described is true reci have acted in a disgraceful manner and shows a complete lack of understanding from the inspector almost as if he is just ticking boxes but doesn't really know what he is talking about. Unlike other advice here I would go to a solicitor as there actions here are not justified and this has a massive potential impact on you and your business.


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    #26
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    EHP wrote: »
    Unlike other advice here I would go to a solicitor as there actions here are not justified and this has a massive potential impact on you and your business.

    Sometimes solicitors are necessary, but every other avenue should be exhausted first, and clearly they haven't. A solicitor's letter will most likely go straight into the bin. What do you do then? Send another? ....and another? Each one costs money, the relationship deteriorates further and drags out the process. Dose any REC really want to antagonize RECI any more than is absolutely necessary? It could take years to get to court and legal responses could be many months apart. When there is a disagreement such as this all responses should be proportionate, this is key.

    There are mechanisms in place to deal with this, as you have indicated the CRU is one good option. I think that if engaging with RECI fails this is the next logical step. The CRU are independent, they have the authority to deal with this, RECI won't want to tangle with them and best of all engaging with them is free.


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    #27
    EHP
    Registered Users Posts: 173 ✭✭EHP


    I would be expecting a solicitor to carry more weight and speed up the process not have this end up in a court case. As stated already it appears RECI are ignoring him, yes the CRU are the next step but I would use a solicitor to contact them as I believe you will get a faster response. It's unfortunate that RECs seem to have a fear of antagonizing RECI, I think this points to a lack of professionalism from RECI almost like RECs would be expecting revenge from them if they challenge there authority I wouldn't let the bullies win. I'm no legal expert so this is just my opinion just a taught I've just had maybe try contacting ECSSA I'm sure they would love to help.


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    #28
    Lenar3556
    Registered Users Posts: 1,354 ✭✭✭Lenar3556


    EHP wrote: »
    I would be expecting a solicitor to carry more weight and speed up the process not have this end up in a court case. As stated already it appears RECI are ignoring him, yes the CRU are the next step but I would use a solicitor to contact them as I believe you will get a faster response. It's unfortunate that RECs seem to have a fear of antagonizing RECI, I think this points to a lack of professionalism from RECI almost like RECs would be expecting revenge from them if they challenge there authority I wouldn't let the bullies win. I'm no legal expert so this is just my opinion just a taught I've just had maybe try contacting ECSSA I'm sure they would love to help.

    You need to keep it in perspective. RECI attended at a house presumably with the consent of the householder and their member for the purposes of an inspection. Some deficiencies were identified, and noted by the inspector - that is their job.
    The member says that there were works carried out by others after he finished, and that it is these works rather than anything undertaken by him which has brought about the non-compliance. He needs to put them on notice of this, and engage with them in any subsequent investigation of same should they wish to undertake one.

    But other than that, he has suffered no loss. ‘Points’ are an internal mechanism used by RECI to track compliance - I wish them every success with that, but wouldn’t be getting too excited about it.


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    #29
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users Posts: 9,773 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Lenar3556 wrote: »
    You need to keep it in perspective. RECI attended at a house presumably with the consent of the householder and their member for the purposes of an inspection. Some deficiencies were identified, and noted by the inspector - that is their job.
    The member says that there were works carried out by others after he finished, and that it is these works rather than anything undertaken by him which has brought about the non-compliance. He needs to put them on notice of this, and engage with them in any subsequent investigation of same should they wish to undertake one.

    But other than that, he has suffered no loss. ‘Points’ are an internal mechanism used by RECI to track compliance - I wish them every success with that, but wouldn’t be getting too excited about it.

    Good observations! The impact of the ‘points’ will be pretty small.

    The ‘points’ are a negative finding though. The electrician has to deal with these in a short time or else accept them.

    I think it would be good procedure for the OP to formally appeal these. Even if he doesn’t succeeed it may be important to have things on record.

    I am a bit worried that the OP does not know a lot about public law (understandably, he/she being a jobbing electrician). It does not seem to me like a solicitor would be appropriate to help the OP at this stage. He/she is nonetheless understandably upset. Is there any trade body that can help with this?


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    #30
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,533 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    EHP wrote: »
    I would be expecting a solicitor to carry more weight and speed up the process not have this end up in a court case.

    A solicitors letter will only "carry more weight" if RECI actually believe that this matter would end up in court.
    Think about it!


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