Poor Workmanship

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 12:36pm #1

Hi,

We completed a renovation just over a year ago. We have noticed a number of issues such as bad plastering, poor outside rendering, drainage issues, roof issues etc. With covid the builder was unable to visit the property and when we raised these issues over the phone he dismissed them as us being too picky. When restrictions have lifted the builder has said he will visit the property. However Im concerned that he won't take our greivances seriously. Therefore I would like to have an independent party inspect the property and provide a report.

Can you please let me know what the best options here are? Do I require a structural survery or would a snag list be sufficient?

Thanks

Hoof Hearted2 · 16-02-2021 12:39pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

Hi,

We completed a renovation just over a year ago. We have noticed a number of issues such as bad plastering, poor outside rendering, drainage issues, roof issues etc. With covid the builder was unable to visit the property and when we raised these issues over the phone he dismissed them as us being too picky. When restrictions have lifted the builder has said he will visit the property. However Im concerned that he won't take our greivances seriously. Therefore I would like to have an independent party inspect the property and provide a report.

Can you please let me know what the best options here are? Do I require a structural survery or would a snag list be sufficient?

Thanks

Have you paid him in full already? if so then there is very little you can do if he is unwilling to remedy any issue you may have.

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 12:40pm

Did you have an independent professional over seeing the work at the time?
Architect, engineer or surveyor?

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 12:41pm

Hi, he has been paid in full and we didn't have an independent professional over seeing the work.

Hoof Hearted2 · 16-02-2021 12:44pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

Hi, he has been paid in full and we didn't have an independent professional over seeing the work.

In that case, I'd be extra nice to him in order to get him to tidy up any work that needs doing.

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 12:47pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

Hi, he has been paid in full and we didn't have an independent professional over seeing the work.

Unfortunately then you as the owner became responsible for oversight, sign off and payment. Once you paid him, you declared you were happy.

Be nice to him. Ask him to call around and look and just see if you can come to an agreement on the issues.

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 12:47pm

We have been more than nice with him, however Im concerned that he will refuse to remedy all of the defects and I would therefore like to get an independent report together.

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 12:50pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

We have been more than nice with him, however Im concerned that he will refuse to remedy all of the defects and I would therefore like to get an independent report together.

Engage a Building Surveyor to prepare a list of defects. Then engage a contractor to price fixing them.

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 12:51pm

ok so I require a building surveyor rather than a snag list.

Larbre34 · 16-02-2021 12:53pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

We have been more than nice with him, however Im concerned that he will refuse to remedy all of the defects and I would therefore like to get an independent report together.

You can do so at your own expense of course. But as your contractual relationship with the builder is finished, a report is of no consequence to him at this stage and doesn't compel him to do anything.

If he values his reputation and customer satisfaction for onward recommendations locally, then he may look favourably on remedying the problems, but thats only a maybe.

Hoof Hearted2 · 16-02-2021 12:53pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

We have been more than nice with him, however Im concerned that he will refuse to remedy all of the defects and I would therefore like to get an independent report together.

Unfortunately in your case, that is his prerogative, the time to address any snagging list is before you had over the final payment, not after.
Your best hope now is to be extra nice to him (you don't have to mean it BTW), and hope you can appeal to his better nature.

TheBoyConor · 16-02-2021 1:00pm

He will refuse to do any remedial work. There is no question of that. Why would he when he is paid up in full?

You slipped up bad by paying in full for a job you weren't happy with.

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:04pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

ok so I require a building surveyor rather than a snag list.

You can’t carry out a snag list now. The time for that was at practical completion and before final funds paid.

Unfortunately we have been polite by saying be nice to the builder, but to paint it in plain English, it’s your fault the faults are there as you should have engaged a professional to over see the works.

Now I don’t mean to be a d1ck here, I just wanted to get the point across is clear and concise language.

TheBoyConor · 16-02-2021 1:08pm

I agree.

You're trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted. Definitely.

I'd be inclined to suck it up and save yourself the hassle of chasing after a builder who hasn't a notion of coming back to you.

You'd be better at this stage to and engineer in to inspect it, draw up a schedule of necessary remedial works, and appoint another contractor to do it. Even appointing a contractor to come in and fix odds and ends and snags and the like will be very difficult. It is not a job many will be interested in as there will be loads of hassle and they have enough straighforward jobs on their books.

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 1:10pm

The renovation wasn't anything complicated, a standard kitchen extension and rear extention. We had seen previous work the builder had carried out and were happy to proceed. However in our case he underpriced the job and cut corners.

Hoof Hearted2 · 16-02-2021 1:11pm

OP Don't mind these d1cks, they are just been arseholes for the sake of it.

It's nobody's fault, it's just one of those things that you learn from.

Lesson learnt been, in future if you decide not to engage an architect, engineer or surveyor, then you assume all responsibility and have to make sure the job is completed to your satisfaction before parting with final payment.

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:13pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

The renovation wasn't anything complicated, a standard kitchen extension and rear extention. We had seen previous work the builder had carried out and were happy to proceed. However in our case he underpriced the job and cut corners.

You mention extension.
So planning issues? Certs of compliance with building regulations and planning regulations??!?

TheBoyConor · 16-02-2021 1:13pm

Well it is someone's fault. The fault is shared amongst everyone involved in this case.

It is the contractor's fault for pricing at a level he could do the job properly at. It is his fault for cutting corners and doing a substandard job. But then it is also the OPs fault for not ensuring proper supervision and oversight of the job. OP also cut corners to save a few quid by not appointing a competent person to oversee and supervise the works.

You live and learn sure.

In addition to the BCAR and planning issues, did OP make the necessary H&S appointments I wonder?

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 1:14pm

It didn't require planning permission

TheBoyConor · 16-02-2021 1:15pm

What about BCAR?

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:15pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

It didn't require planning permission

Of course. But you still need a cert of compliance with building regulations. You also need a cert of compliance with planning regulations (exempted development section).

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:16pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

What about BCAR?

If planning exempt then no Commencement Notice required and therefore no involvement with BCAR.

TheBoyConor · 16-02-2021 1:16pm

oh!

agoc2809 · 16-02-2021 1:18pm

We didn't require as extension was smaller than 40 sqm

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:20pm

agoc2809 wrote: »

We didn't require as extension was smaller than 40 sqm

Your not listening.
Even exempted development require these certs. Does it comply with the other requirements? Area of garden space remaining? Window distance to boundary?

You are only exempt from the process of applying for planning permission. You still need to comply with building regulations and planning regulations (exempted development).

This is further evidence of not having a professional involved in the project unfortunately.

seamus · 16-02-2021 1:21pm

Get the independent surveyor to snag list but to also advise you on what's normal and what's not. Some people can be too picky or not understand what's to be expected.
With an extension for example, you will likely start to see plasterwork (inside and out) develop cracks along it due to settling. This is normal, but many people worry that it's poor work or something wrong with the building.

The surveyor will help you separate the "that's not right it needs fixing" from the "that's normal/unavoidable".

RandRuns · 16-02-2021 1:21pm

This should be shared to the thread about the guy looking to do his house direct labour.

"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur.”

Unfortunately, as mentioned by others, these issues should have been picked up either during the build or during snagging, and would have been if there had been a professional in charge. Now you are at the mercy of the builder and whether he will help as a geture of goodwill - if this was a "lowest possible price for everything" job then it is unlikely he made much margin, and this may affect his willingness to put more time into it.

ElderWanderer · 16-02-2021 1:25pm

People here have very odd ideas as to what a contract is. Just because you've handed over all the money doesn't mean that you've no rights to redress or leverage for bad workmanship. The terms of the contract- whether implied or explicit is irrelevant- were that the work you paid for would be done to the appropriate standard. Paying over the cash doesn't mean you legally recognised the work as being acceptable- you're just a punter, what do you know? And anyway, many issues around construction are only apparent months or years after substantial completion- google pyrite or Western Building Systems for examples. You have 6 years from the date of final payment under contract law to seek redress.

Asking nicely should always be Option A, that's 100% accurate. Option B is asking not nicely. Option C is a solicitors letter, Option D is legal proceedings, Option E is getting the sheriff to execute judgement.

Aside from your legal rights, once legal proceedings are issued it becomes public effectively. That means your local newspaper can run headlines saying Builder X sued for crappy workmanship. Also, you seem to have hired the builder based on word of mouth & reputation- that cuts both ways, and practically every builder knows it. Don't be afraid to use it.

Whether it's actually worth going past Option A depends on your own preferences- depending on the workmanship issues, it may not be worth going to court, or you could lose if they're cosmetic. But you definitely have options beyond "ask nicely, get told no, live with it".

Gumbo · 16-02-2021 1:27pm

ElderWanderer wrote: »

People here have very odd ideas as to what a contract is. Just because you've handed over all the money doesn't mean that you've no rights to redress or leverage for bad workmanship. The terms of the contract- whether implied or explicit is irrelevant- were that the work you paid for would be done to the appropriate standard. Paying over the cash doesn't mean you legally recognised the work as being acceptable- you're just a punter, what do you know? And anyway, many issues around construction are only apparent months or years after substantial completion- google pyrite or Western Building Systems for examples. You have 6 years from the date of final payment under contract law to seek redress.

Asking nicely should always be Option A, that's 100% accurate. Option B is asking not nicely. Option C is a solicitors letter, Option D is legal proceedings, Option E is getting the sheriff to execute judgement.

Aside from your legal rights, once legal proceedings are issued it becomes public effectively. That means your local newspaper can run headlines saying Builder X sued for crappy workmanship. Also, you seem to have hired the builder based on word of mouth & reputation- that cuts both ways, and practically every builder knows it. Don't be afraid to use it.

Whether it's actually worth going past Option A depends on your own preferences- depending on the workmanship issues, it may not be worth going to court, or you could lose if they're cosmetic. But you definitely have options beyond "ask nicely, get told no, live with it".

The “punter” here is the one that’s responsible for compliance with the regulations associated with the works. Would that have any bearing on it?

You can’t be a “punter” on one hand and be the “designer” on the other hand in order to save money on professional fees.

RandRuns · 16-02-2021 1:30pm

ElderWanderer wrote: »

People here have very odd ideas as to what a contract is. Just because you've handed over all the money doesn't mean that you've no rights to redress or leverage for bad workmanship. The terms of the contract- whether implied or explicit is irrelevant- were that the work you paid for would be done to the appropriate standard. Paying over the cash doesn't mean you legally recognised the work as being acceptable- you're just a punter, what do you know? And anyway, many issues around construction are only apparent months or years after substantial completion- google pyrite or Western Building Systems for examples. You have 6 years from the date of final payment under contract law to seek redress.

Asking nicely should always be Option A, that's 100% accurate. Option B is asking not nicely. Option C is a solicitors letter, Option D is legal proceedings, Option E is getting the sheriff to execute judgement.

Aside from your legal rights, once legal proceedings are issued it becomes public effectively. That means your local newspaper can run headlines saying Builder X sued for crappy workmanship. Also, you seem to have hired the builder based on word of mouth & reputation- that cuts both ways, and practically every builder knows it. Don't be afraid to use it.

Whether it's actually worth going past Option A depends on your own preferences- depending on the workmanship issues, it may not be worth going to court, or you could lose if they're cosmetic. But you definitely have options beyond "ask nicely, get told no, live with it".

All very well in theory, however, unless the client appointed someone as PSDS for the project, then the only person they will be suing is themselves, as they took on responsibilty for ensuring everything was done correctly and to standard.

Treppen · 16-02-2021 1:31pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well it is someone's fault. The fault is shared amongst everyone involved in this case.

It is the contractor's fault for pricing at a level he could do the job properly at. It is his fault for cutting corners and doing a substandard job. But then it is also the OPs fault for not ensuring proper supervision and oversight of the job. OP also cut corners to save a few quid by not appointing a competent person to oversee and supervise the works.

You live and learn sure.

In addition to the BCAR and planning issues, did OP make the necessary H&S appointments I wonder?

People are being very harsh on the OP with this type of blame.
It would appear that OPs issues have come to light recently, these issues could have easily been hidden after the job had been complete, and the OP took it on face value that the builder was good at their job.
If you get a guy to install a boiler and it explodes a year later, is it your fault because you didn't oversee and check out the work after?

Also, Underpaying doesn't come into it, if he says he can do X for y price then he should do it to a proper standard, not 70% standard because his wages or materials have gone up.

But yes OP we've been in this situation before but the window fitter refused to respond until we went small claims. When I went to find out his company details we could see he dissolved the company as often as he changed his underpants, we foolishly spent money on engineers reports. We should have just hired another fitter to fix the job and pay them the money. Luckily when we got the house painted one of the guys could see the issues and patch them up for a few quid extra.

What we did do though is went back to the original customers who gave us the recommendation and told them (builder will obviously use them over you). One of the customers was related so hopefully it'll bring a modecum of shame to his reputation! You could also find out where they got their recommendation from if you want word to get back to the builder!

So only thing you can do is sweet talk them in the hope. Maybe find a handy plasterer who could fix the issues and roof if it's not too bad.
Engineers reports will only tell you what you already know, unless there's other issues lurking.

But no it's not your fault for bad workmanship.

Poor Workmanship

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