Augustine Hill development told to scale down significantly

29-08-2020 9:08pm #1

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/galway-council-wants-monolithic-development-with-21-storey-tower-scaled-down-1.4341188

The promoters of a €320 million mixed use, urban regeneration development in Galway city centre, which includes plans for a 21-storey tower, have been told to scale down the scheme significantly because of the threat it posed to “the unique character of the city”.

Galway City Council has postponed a decision on an application by Seagullpoint for planning permission for the proposed Augustine Hill development on a 3.5 hectare site adjacent to Ceannt railway station just off Eyre Square amid concern by planners about the scale of the project.
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The council recommended that the new plans should be “of outstanding architectural design instead of how they currently present with little variety in design, finish and excessive bulk”.
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Planners criticised the residential element of the plans claiming there is an insufficient mix as 65 per cent of apartments are designated as build-to-rent, while 73 per cent are two-bed units.

A proposed childcare facility with capacity for 81 children has also been deemed inadequate.

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It also questioned the scale of retail space given the recent closure of several large shops in the area and expressed concern that the development could “cannibalise the remainder of the city centre leaving vacant premises all over in its wake”.

Local Green Party councillor Martina O’Connor expressed regret that the council had left it to private developers to design a masterplan for the city centre, while also questioning if Galway needed another hotel and cinema.

“The masterplan has been created to maximise profits for the developer and is not considerate of the needs of the people of Galway,” she added.

Laviski · 29-08-2020 10:42pm

this is total BS... planner need to understand we need to build up not out.....
objection shouldn't be against the height, the other factors may be considered.

se25 · 29-08-2020 11:07pm

Maybe if GCC had a plan /blueprint which developers could work with would help..Always seems to to be developer led with usual delays, expense and never ending appeals.
Surely apartment design should be family orientated to bring back life to our urban centers, and not just focus on the rental sector.

Mrs OBumble · 29-08-2020 11:17pm

se25 wrote: »

Surely apartment design should be family orientated to bring back life to our urban centers, and not just focus on the rental sector.

City centres are not appropriate living environments for families: children simply do not need to be exposed to the levels of ASB and noise that they come with. (And I say that as a city-centre resident).

Most apartments in a place like this should be 2brm, for single workers, retirees, and child-free couples. And there's nothing wrong with having plenty of rentals either: the city is woefully short of them.

30-08-2020 12:36am

se25 wrote: »

Maybe if GCC had a plan /blueprint which developers could work with would help..Always seems to to be developer led with usual delays, expense and never ending appeals.

It seems crazy to me that GCC allows developers to draw up masterplans for areas, surely a masterplan drawn up by GCC which had all of this worked out would be better. The city development plan is generally quite vague. Allowing developers to draw up masterplans is like having foxes design hen houses.

What I think is more important and should be discussed more is what is the actual rental price of these apartments going to be and will there be demand if they are at a luxury price point? (I'm thinking about this report about Dublin Docklands https://www.98fm.com/news/hundreds-of-high-rent-luxury-dublin-apartments-lying-empty-971988) and also is there demand for the retail units?

Geuze · 30-08-2020 2:56am

21 storeys seems too high???

10 would be plenty.

biko · 30-08-2020 10:46am

Currently City Point is supposed to be the tallest building in town.
It's not pretty.

Build up, sure, but not in the city centre. Build outside it.
Build big buildings in Parkmore, Dangan and Anthenry. Make these places larger and don't add congestion to the city centre.

City planners said the landmark 21-storey tower lacked a distinctive design and quality as well as having a poor relationship with the rest of the development.

I agree.

From Lonely Planet to The New York Times, Galway has been voted the 'most charming' city by a number of global publications. This will make the city worse, not better.

LostDuck · 30-08-2020 2:06pm

biko wrote: »

Build up, sure, but not in the city centre. Build outside it.
Build big buildings in Parkmore, Dangan and Anthenry. Make these places larger and don't add congestion to the city centre.

Building up in the city centre reduces congestion as residents can either work/live in the city centre (foot/bike) or they're at the hub of all the public transport routes.

LostDuck · 30-08-2020 2:36pm

biko wrote: »

Currently City Point is supposed to be the tallest building in town.
It's not pretty.

Surprised to hear this - I would have thought the buildings at the docks were taller....

Mrs OBumble · 30-08-2020 3:52pm

CutyPoint is highest because its on a hill to start with. Personally I like the design.

Traffic in Parkmore is already a shítshow, with few methods of solving it. Vs the city centre which can be fixed with trains and p&r from several directions.

Wompa1 · 30-08-2020 5:09pm

I also like the design of City Point. It doesn't look out of place.

Smegging hell · 30-08-2020 6:08pm

Can Galway City really sustain five cinemas (not including Oranmore)? Meanwhile there's no proper cinema in the whole of east Galway.

Black Tom · 30-08-2020 7:43pm

A 21 story tower, in some hideous modern architectural style, looming over Eyre Square?

No thanks.

LostDuck · 30-08-2020 9:21pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

CutyPoint is highest because its on a hill to start with.

biko said tallest not highest

biko · 30-08-2020 9:31pm

It was when it was new, of course that's 10 years ago now.

Ficheall · 30-08-2020 9:34pm

I see Black Tom is banned, but I'm going to agree with him anyway. A 21-storey tower in the middle of Galway sounds hideous.

BeardySi · 30-08-2020 10:22pm

The 21 storey tower was never what they wanted to build - it's a ridiculous proposal for the place that's intended to be turned down.

They then can come back with their real proposal which will still be awful, but less so, as a "compromise" which they'll hope will pass planning...

cooperguy · 31-08-2020 11:42pm

Ficheall wrote: »

I see Black Tom is banned, but I'm going to agree with him anyway. A 21-storey tower in the middle of Galway sounds hideous.

Just to play devils advocate a little bit. Would a large tower (maybe not quite 21 floors), in a separate quarter set among other medium size buildings, as Augustine Hill would be. Be that bad? We're not talking about putting the complex in the middle of shop street. It would back up onto Bonham Quay.

westgolf · 01-09-2020 7:13am

cooperguy wrote: »

Just to play devils advocate a little bit. Would a large tower (maybe not quite 21 floors), in a separate quarter set among other medium size buildings, as Augustine Hill would be. Be that bad? We're not talking about putting the complex in the middle of shop street. It would back up onto Bonham Quay.

Continuing with the devil's advocate role, Bonham quay is 8 stories, Augustine will be built in the railway yards above it. So a 20 storey tower built there would be in effect be almost 30 stories when viewed from Dock Road.

cooperguy · 02-09-2020 12:28am

westgolf wrote: »

Continuing with the devil's advocate role, Bonham quay is 8 stories, Augustine will be built in the railway yards above it. So a 20 storey tower built there would be in effect be almost 30 stories when viewed from Dock Road.

I could be wrong, but looking up an Elevation Finder there is only maybe 5 meters difference in elevation which would add a floor or two in perceived height?

Not that I'm arguing for a 20 storey tower either, but something in the teens say? Not that I'm convinced that's right, I'm open to persuasion either way!

07-04-2021 3:47am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/reduction-in-size-of-landmark-galway-development-1.4530497

"In response to a public consultation and feedback from Galway City Council, the total area of development has been reduced by 11 per cent from 128,080sq m to 114,161sq m.

The original plan had 11 towers, the tallest of which is 21 storeys, making it the highest residential building in Ireland. It is being retained, but the number of other towers is being reduced from 10 to nine. The nine tower blocks have been reduced by either one or two storeys.

The quantity of public open space proposed has been increased by 3,544sqm, with increased activities and sculptures provided for within the open space areas throughout the development. "

"The overall residential element of the development has been increased by 7.5 per cent compared to the scheme as submitted with the planning application. The proportion of “build-to-rent” units has also decreased in favour of “build-to-sell” units.

Additionally, the number of “independent living” units for the elderly within the build-to-rent allocation has increased from 43 units proposed at application stage to 62 units now proposed.

When the development is completed it will consist of 11 new streets and four new public spaces in an area within five minutes’ walk of Eyre Square.

It is being described by its developer Gerry Barrett as a “one-of-a-kind place” as an “integrated district and central part of Galway with attractive cultural offers and leisure facilities, as well as innovative retail and entertainment concepts”. "

stampydmonkey · 07-04-2021 6:23am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The quantity of public open space proposed has been increased by 3,544sqm, with increased activities and sculptures provided for within the open space areas throughout the development. "

"The overall residential element of the development has been increased by 7.5 per cent compared to the scheme as submitted with the planning application. The proportion of “build-to-rent” units has also decreased in favour of “build-to-sell” units.

Additionally, the number of “independent living” units for the elderly within the build-to-rent allocation has increased from 43 units proposed at application stage to 62 units now proposed.

It is being described by its developer Gerry Barrett as a “one-of-a-kind place” as an “integrated district and central part of Galway with attractive cultural offers and leisure facilities, as well as innovative retail and entertainment concepts”. "

Would like to see the total figures and %s of:
Area of open space Vs overall development
Build to rent Vs build to sell resi units
Total resi Vs independent living units

To make it "one of a kind" development in the current market it would need all of the above to be significantly higher than current trends particularly around ownership. If you want to build a community you need it to be settled and not just another profit machine for a buy to let vulture funds.

ax530 · 07-04-2021 9:24am

childcare facility for 81 children does not sound useful if no schools around, as it is I do not think the city centre schools are in huge demand.
Also I think lots gets lost in the argument 'build high'.
Discussion over number of stories ect but the purpose of the building should be the main priority. If the building is used well it will 'fit in' big buildings for the 'look on the skyline' may not add much value.
Is it going to be a mixed community of people living together (single, students, elderly, families) with living, social and community areas or is it a student\tourist block occupied short term.
I don't think Galway is big enough to have a market for this new place to live.
Draw a line on cinema anyhow like way too many already around Galway.

Mrs OBumble · 07-04-2021 9:29am

stampydmonkey wrote: »

If you want to build a community you need it to be settled and not just another profit machine for a buy to let vulture funds.

Where does it say they want to build a community?

ax530 wrote: »

childcare facility for 81 children does not sound useful if no schools around,

There are plenty of workers though: childcare close to work is a good thing.

07-04-2021 11:57am

ax530 wrote: »

Is it going to be a mixed community of people living together (single, students, elderly, families) with living, social and community areas or is it a student\tourist block occupied short term.
I don't think Galway is big enough to have a market for this new place to live.
Draw a line on cinema anyhow like way too many already around Galway.

Another cinema I really don't think is needed unless one of the current ones folds because of the pandemic.

As regards a market for what they're building I think it all comes down to price and quality. If they're well built and reasonably priced then they'll sell and rent well to people who want to rent apartments in Ireland (so generally not families so far) but personally I'm expecting the price of these to be well above what most people in Galway would want to spend on rent/an apartment. As far as I'm aware an bord pleanala doesn't get a developer to actually demonstrate that there is a market for their building before they start construction.

Despite the housing crisis there are large swathes of apartments in Dublin that are lying empty because of the premium rates of rent https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/hundreds-plush-properties-laying-vacant-17800453 I would hope that wouldn't happen here.

I find it interesting that they reduced the amount of towers rather than the height of the biggest tower.

Geuze · 07-04-2021 12:22pm

11 new streets!!

That is big!!

I must look at the masterplan.

https://summix.com/projects/augustine-hill/

https://summix.com/projects/queen-street/

Geuze · 17-05-2021 10:33am

Geuze wrote: »

11 new streets!!

That is big!!

I must look at the masterplan.

https://summix.com/projects/augustine-hill/

https://summix.com/projects/queen-street/

Does anybody know where I can find the masterplan?

Or the planning application reference code?

Thanks.

Jammyd · 17-05-2021 10:38am

https://geo.galwaycity.ie/ePlan5/AppFileRefDetails/2047/0

all docs scanned up here in the view scanned files section

Planning decision is due to be decided next week - 24.05.21

Jammyd · 25-05-2021 4:19pm

Conditional Planning Granted - current status says split decision Schedule 1 Refused, Schedule 2 Granted with 53 Conditions. No docs scanned as yet to ascertain what has or hasn't been approved

26-05-2021 12:19am

Some pics

https://twitter.com/OwenHanleyLives/status/1397267203074965510?s=20

https://twitter.com/Edwarddotie/status/1397242487450841090?s=20

https://twitter.com/OwenHanleyLives/status/1397251087950876679?s=20

Jammyd · 26-05-2021 8:34am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Some pics

https://twitter.com/OwenHanleyLives/status/1397267203074965510?s=20

https://twitter.com/Edwarddotie/status/1397242487450841090?s=20

https://twitter.com/OwenHanleyLives/status/1397251087950876679?s=20

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/edward-capital-secures-approval-for-landmark-galway-city-development-1.4575012?mode=amp

Looks like they’ve trimmed down the apts but the overall scheme hasn’t been reduced. Delighted to see this approved. Ultimately this is only the beginning of the battle with most likely multiple challenges from usual suspects

Laviski · 26-05-2021 8:42am

Jammyd wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/edward-capital-secures-approval-for-landmark-galway-city-development-1.4575012?mode=amp

Looks like they’ve trimmed down the apts but the overall scheme hasn’t been reduced. Delighted to see this approved. Ultimately this is only the beginning of the battle with most likely multiple challenges from usual suspects

And that is why planning/building is broken for years.

Jammyd · 26-05-2021 9:04am

Laviski wrote: »

And that is why planning/building is broken for years.

Yep 100%.. Galway seems to be earning its reputation as the appeals capital these last years rightly or wrongly. An Taisce should move their HQ’s to Abbeygate street at this rate ðŸ˜‚

Wiggywiggle · 26-05-2021 10:11am

Wonder what the first objection will be

galwayrush · 26-05-2021 10:35am

Wiggywiggle wrote: »

Wonder what the first objection will be

My bets are the anti progress perpetual serial objectors An Taisce

Daisy78 · 27-05-2021 7:00pm

galwayrush wrote: »

My bets are the anti progress perpetual serial objectors An Taisce

The same organisation that recently lodged an appeal against the grant of planning to a cheese factory in Kilkenny on the grounds of sustainability/climate change concerns? Yet here we have a development that promotes city centre living which will allow for more sustainable transportation, away from the suburbs and which is based on extensive consultation with the local community. I’m sure they will appeal but I really hope they get short shrift.

Mrs OBumble · 27-05-2021 8:08pm

Daisy78 wrote: »

... Yet here we have a development that promotes city centre living which will allow for more sustainable transportation, away from the suburbs.

I was disappointed to read that the planning approval is for only half of the suggested number of apartments. Anyone know the reasons behind that?

28-05-2021 12:02pm

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I was disappointed to read that the planning approval is for only half of the suggested number of apartments. Anyone know the reasons behind that?

Two of the towers were gotten rid of so maybe that accounts for that.

I don't see the point of a cinema, it's a pity that space can't be used for a mid sized theatre/concert venue, maybe 2000 - 3000 seated capacity. Between the various festivals and events in Galway something like that would be a great asset.

TheSegal · 28-05-2021 12:53pm

Johnny0Toole wrote: »

Two of the towers were gotten rid of so maybe that accounts for that.

I don't see the point of a cinema, it's a pity that space can't be used for a mid sized theatre/concert venue, maybe 2000 - 3000 seated capacity. Between the various festivals and events in Galway something like that would be a great asset.

A concert venue there is the best idea i've heard for the development so far since it's so close to the rail and bus stations but not a hope of getting one that close to a residential space i'd imagine.

16-08-2021 12:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117271650#Comment_117271650

You win! (theres no prize except for pride)

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/vast-high-rise-development-for-galway-appealed-by-an-taisce-1.4647556

galwayrush · 16-08-2021 9:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117761531#Comment_117761531

Sadly that pathetic bunch were always guaranteed to object. It’s what they do.

Paddico · 17-08-2021 1:54pm

Thought the style of the development was very dull.

I'm no architect but a little creativity in the design wouldn't go astray

Paddico · 16-03-2023 3:01pm

Is this now dead in the water?

Jammyd · 16-03-2023 4:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120366305#Comment_120366305

I wouldnt say its dead but like many projects stuck in limbo due to ABP hold ups.. ridiculous there is no penalties on hold ups by the planning authority I believe the appeal was to be decisioned in Oct 2021 and still no answer from them i'd be reeling if I was the developer

20-03-2023 6:57pm

It's crazy that they would even consider giving planning to a development of this scale to a developer that defaulted on so much dept in the past.

Jammyd · 05-07-2023 10:51am

https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/310568

Finally Approved by ABP!! only over 2 years past their original decision date...

?Cee?view · 05-07-2023 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120380590#Comment_120380590

What are you on about?

Jammyd · 05-07-2023 12:15pm

the seperate 11 story Hotel application to the east has been declined. ABP rejected their own inspectors recommendation to grant permission https://www.pleanala.ie/en-ie/case/310615

what_traffic · 05-07-2023 9:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807608#Comment_120807608

When they going to start, going to take a no of years to built it all.

06-07-2023 12:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807731#Comment_120807731

Developer involved is Gerry Barrett. Personally I don't think a project of this scale should be handed to a developer that has a history of not being able to manage company finances too well.

?Cee?view · 06-07-2023 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120812672#Comment_120812672

Absolute rubbish. During the downturn - which everyone experienced, not just him - his approx 800 million debt was sold by one group of banks to another for 60 million. Instead of allowing him to trade out of the debt, and even though he offered multiples of the 60 million that the banks paid for his debt, they sank him. So, those banks realise a lot more than 60 million, yet he gets painted as the bad guy to simpletons. This was all in the press at the time. It doesn't suit the all developers are bad guys story though...

Augustine Hill development told to scale down significantly

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