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Difference between a civil and a criminal offence?

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  • 23-10-2017 10:57pm
    #1
    Gerrup Outta Dat!
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 492 ✭✭


    Clamping a car or an unpaid restaurant bill is apparently a civil offence, the Gardaí won't get involved.

    Murder, assault and rape are CRIMINAL offences, ie, they are actual statute offences.

    Does that mean that if a woman is raped or a man is savagely assaulted, even if they choose not to press charges, the courts can still punish the perpetrator? Sorry for the stupid question.


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    #2
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,469 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Anything that is prohibited as an offence and which can be punished with a prison sentence or a fine backed bby a prison sentence is a criminal offence.

    Not paying for dinner is a theft. We dont have a concept of "pressing charges". A person makes a statement, the Gardai investigate and the dpp decides to prosecute. Sometimes the person withdraws their complaint, in which case the Gardai may end the investigation, or the dpp may decide to drop the prosecution, but not always. In rape cases the complainants evidence ia crucial so it is rare but not impossible for the case to go on even if they dont wish to proceed.


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    #3
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    We don't have "civil offences" in Ireland. All offences are criminal offences. On the civil side, what we have are civil wrongs or claims or causes of action.

    If I park in your car park and you clamp my car because I stay longer than permitted, or because I'm not a patron of your business, or whatever condition of the permission to park I am breaching, I have not committed any offence at all. I may be trespassing, but trespass is a civil matter, not a crime.

    Similarly if I order and eat a meal in your restaurant, and then find that I have left my wallet at home, or my credit card gets declined, I owe you money, but I haven't committed any offence.

    On the other hand, if I knew all along that I had no money/no credit card, and I ordered and ate the meal with no intention of paying for it, that is a crime. But in most real-life cases, neither the guards nor the restaurant-owner can possibly know that this is the case, so the matter will be treated as a civil matter unless and until evidence emerges to prove my fraudulent intent. At that point the guards will take an interest.


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    #4
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,266 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Note that certain matters, e.g. ordinary speeding fines ('fixed charge notices' - FCNs) are dealt with administratively - if you pay the fine and take the points, you won't be prosecuted and therefore not convicted.

    Some other matters are prosecuted by agencies other than the Garda / DPP, e.g. council parking fines, transport operators for fare evasion, etc. They are often dealt with via FCNs as they are minor matters. However, some quite serious matters are prosecuted by social welfare, Revenue, ODCE, etc.


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    #5
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, although it should be noted that the acts concerned - e.g. speeding - are criminal offences, whether or not there is a prosecution or a conviction. Indeed, prosecution is only possible because the act is a criminal offence.


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    #6
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    We don't have "civil offences" in Ireland.

    Correct, however if your a member of the Defence Forces we do (not to be confused with the ordinary meaning of a civil wrong/action), a Civil Offence is an offence against military law.


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    #7
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    GM228 wrote: »
    Correct, however if your a member of the Defence Forces we do (not to be confused with the ordinary meaning of a civil wrong/action), a Civil Offence is an offence against military law.
    Wait, what?

    I'm not doubting what you say, but have you any idea how that usage came about? It looks like the opposite of what you'd expect, which is that "civil offence" would be an offence under general law, as opposed to, say, "military offence" for an offence under the military justice system.


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    #8
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Wait, what?

    I'm not doubting what you say, but have you any idea how that usage came about? It looks like the opposite of what you'd expect, which is that "civil offence" would be an offence under general law, as opposed to, say, "military offence" for an offence under the military justice system.

    Offences punishable by ordinary law are deemed to be offences against military law.

    It's a term of art for the Defence Forces, see the Defence Act 1954 S169 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1990 First Schedule):-
    wrote:
    169.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this Act, every person who, while he is subject to military law, commits any of the offences referred to in this section shall be deemed to be guilty of an offence against military law and, if charged under this section with any such offence (in this Act referred to as a civil offence) shall be liable to be tried by court-martial.

    The same applies in the UK where it is often stated that it really is an inaccurate use of the term.


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    #9
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Ah, OK. Reading section 169, it's clear that the offences referred to - treason, murder, manslaughter, rape, genocide, other offences "punishable by the ordinary criminal law of the State" - are all offences under general law, and so referring to them as "civil offences" makes sense. What s.169 does is to deem a person who is subject to military law and who commits any of these offences to be guilty of an offence against military law, and to allow him to be tried by court-martial.

    In other words, the jurisdiction of the courts-martial is extended to cover these civil offences, when committed by people subject to military law. But they are offences under general law, not under military law.


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    #10
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    In other words, the jurisdiction of the courts-martial is extended to cover these civil offences, when committed by people subject to military law. But they are offences under general law, not under military law.

    Correct, they are just deemed to be an offence under military law, the term is a misnomer - hence why I said "not to be confused with the ordinary meaning of a civil wrong/action".

    I have traced the terms use back to around 1800 at least.


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    #11
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    GM228 wrote: »
    Correct, they are just deemed to be an offence under military law . . .
    Actually, they're not. A person who has committed one of them is deemed to have committed an offence under military law, which isn't quite the same thing.

    Tricky things, deeming provisions!


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    #12
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Actually, they're not. A person who has committed one of them is deemed to have committed an offence under military law

    Yes, that would be more accurate to say - that is what I was trying to say :)


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    #13
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,068 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I will deem you to have said that, so.


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    #14
    Gerrup Outta Dat!
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 492 ✭✭Gerrup Outta Dat!


    What does indictment mean? I know serious offences such as murder and rape are indictable, but what exactly does that mean?

    If someone committed murder or rape and there was no evidence to charge them at the time and 20 years later new evidence came to light, I’d assume they could be prosecuted then couldn’t they?

    What if someone vandalised my car or home? Could I make a complaint 20 yeas later?

    What is the statute of limitations in Irish law? What draws the line between something that can be brought back to court 20 years later and something that can’t?


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    #15
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »
    What does indictment mean? I know serious offences such as murder and rape are indictable, but what exactly does that mean?

    Indictment is trial by jury, as opposed to summary trials which is a trial by judge only.

    To note is some indictable offences can be tried summarily.


    Gerrup Outta Dat! wrote: »
    If someone committed murder or rape and there was no evidence to charge them at the time and 20 years later new evidence came to light, I’d assume they could be prosecuted then couldn’t they?

    What if someone vandalised my car or home? Could I make a complaint 20 yeas later?

    What is the statute of limitations in Irish law? What draws the line between something that can be brought back to court 20 years later and something that can’t?

    Have a look at this thread.

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057776808/1/#post104417404


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