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Funeral Procession

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  • 06-08-2017 6:56pm
    #1
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭


    *NB – this is not a request for legal advise, rather just on the topic of legal discussion/opinion.


    Just a quick question before I get into it - We spoke briefly about graveyard law last year and I had previously read some research on the topic, I mentioned the Rules and Regulations for the Regulation of Burial Grounds 1888 (regulations which were made under S181 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878) which are still in force. Despite my usual best efforts it would seem impossible to get a copy of the 1888 regulations, anybody have or know where I could get a copy? Would such be available on any of the usual DBs?

    Anyway, onto the topic I want to discuss, which is S182 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878 which states:-
    Exemption of burials from toll.

    No funeral procession, or carriage in such procession, and no foot passenger, shall, while going to or returning from the place of interment on the occasion of any interment, be liable to any toll or pontage.


    NUTLEY BOY previously raised an interesting question regarding S182 here:-
    NUTLEY BOY wrote: »
    Very interesting GM228.

    S. 182 covers exemption of burials from toll as follows ;

    182. No funeral procession, or carriage in such procession, and no foot passenger, shall, while going to or returning from the place of interment on the occasion of any interment, be liable to any toll or pontage.

    Would that apply to our modern toll bridges ?


    Recently I looked at the topic again so I put that question to Transport Infrastructure Ireland for their view, this was their reply:-
    I refer to your query below regarding the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878 (Section 182). We referred to our solicitors for their view and they have reverted as follows:

    The Roads Acts 1993 to 2007 set out the grounding legislation for charging of tolls on Irish roads. Part V of the acts stipulates that it refers to 'mechanically propelled vehicle's".

    The public health (Ireland) act 1878 was passed without reference to mechanically propelled vehicles (as they did not exist in Ireland at the time) and can only have envisaged horse drawn funeral processions. [In fact the 1903 motor act initiated the rules of the road as we know them today].

    We are satisfied that the funeral processions referred to in the 1878 act are not exempt and a mechanically propelled hearse would have to pay a toll. This view is confirmed by the fact that hearses are not exempted under section 62 of the roads acts as ambulances and fire brigades are


    Yes it is true that the 1878 Act was passed without reference to a MPV (obviously as the term did not exist at the time), and that the toll is made against a MPV, but a MPV also forms part of a procession.

    The point I would make is that it does not have to state MPV as S182 specifically states that “no funeral procession” shall be subject to “any toll”. It’s an Act still in force and therefore still as relevant as the modern Road Acts and just because it does not state MPV does not dismiss the legislative intent made out that a funeral procession is exempt from tolls

    So do you agree or not?


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    #2
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #3
    Are Am Eye
    Registered Users Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Are Am Eye


    enacted in westminster

    public health ireland act

    burial ireland act


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    #4
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The common understanding, a group of people or vehicles travelling to/from a funeral.


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    #5
    Grolschevik
    Registered Users Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭Grolschevik


    GM228 wrote:
    The common understanding, a group of people or vehicles travelling to/from a funeral.

    Hmm. For my mother's funeral, we travelled in 'procession' to the North, taking in the tolls on the M50 and the M1. I suspect a procession of this distance would be hard to argue to be exempt...


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    #6
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #7
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    They say he who represents himself has a fool for a client, but in such a circumstance I'd definitely take on such as a lay litigant :D


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    This is not true though, the Roads Act 2003 in relation to tolls deals with a "mechanically propelled vehicle", not a "motor vehicle". Being a MPV does not specify the source of power or an actual motor, simply that is propelled mechanically. A MPV can have a source of power via petrol, diesel or steam (all combustion) or even electric for example.

    Ireland first recognised such via The Locomotive Act 1861 (and interestingly had a provision for tolls for road locomotives in that Act) - locomotives would eventually become known as MPVs.

    The term simply changed from "locomotive" to "motor car" in 1903 (the first petrol powered cars were known as light locomotives when they arrived in 1898), and then from motor car to MPV in 1920, interestingly the "locomotive" term was construed together with motor car and MPV through all those Acts up to and including the the Road Traffic Act 1934 - and interestingly the 1934 Act was only repealed 8 months ago by the Statute Law Revision Act 2016, but part of the repeal entailed that "this Act does not affect any existing principle" of the repealed Acts.

    So my argument would be that a MPV was envisaged back in 1878 because MPV is simply the modern term of an old principle/term (locomotive) first recognised in Ireland in 1861 and construed as one according to statute - all that has realistically changed is the power source.


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    #8
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #9
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Yes, until the Road Traffic Act 1933 repealed it.


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    #10
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    I suspect it will be down to the rules relating to the sequence of the acts. I suppose one can look at it two ways:
    * The Oireachtas decided to ignore (in reality: never thought about) the previous act and superseded the act with the new rules for tolls.
    * The Oireachtas decided that the previous act already dealt with the matter of tolls on funerals.

    I'm inclined towards the latter position.

    Solution, write "ambulance" on the side of the hearse ("ambulance" is defined in the Road Traffic Acts, but not the Roads Acts)

    Note that pedestrians and horses are banned from motorways and the Limerick Tunnel and likely the Suir Bridge. Therefore, pedestrians and horses might only be subject to tolls on the East-Link Bridge. Pedestrians are free on the East-Link, horses aren't mentioned (hence free?) and Commercial Vehicles are subject to tolls. I'm not sure they are going to pick a fight over it. If carried by gun carriage, as a military vehicle*, it is likely to be free.
    GM228 wrote: »
    Yes it is true that the 1878 Act was passed without reference to a MPV (obviously as the term did not exist at the time), and that the toll is made against a MPV, but a MPV also forms part of a procession.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_engine#Road_vehicles


    * Difficult to pay the toll anyway as many military vehicles are centre or left hand drive. Which raises the question, in a cash in transit convoy, the Garda and Defence Forces vehicles are exempt, but the CIT vehicle isn't, but the windows on a CIT vehicle won't open. :)


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    #11
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,313 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Would it not be interesting if someone who is part of a funeral was to pay toll under protest and seek refund citing the exemption stated earlier.
    Would be interesting to see what the response would be.
    You would want to be fairly hardcore though to go arguing the toll charge mid funeral.


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    #12
    Are Am Eye
    Registered Users Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Are Am Eye


    I notice that there is no differentiation between funerals for people and those for pets e.g. hamster or goldfish.


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    #13
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,333 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Are Am Eye wrote: »
    I notice that there is no differentiation between funerals for people and those for pets e.g. hamster or goldfish.
    My friend Eral would knock that on the head. Yep, Eral takes the fun out of funEral.


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    #14
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,945 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Are Am Eye wrote: »
    I notice that there is no differentiation between funerals for people and those for pets e.g. hamster or goldfish.

    So if you were in a funeral procession for your pet goldfish's you can avoid tolls and also stop traffic?


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    #15
    ohnonotgmail
    Registered Users Posts: 40,310 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    Are Am Eye wrote: »
    I notice that there is no differentiation between funerals for people and those for pets e.g. hamster or goldfish.

    Well no, the act says funeral. this is understood to be a funeral for a person.


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    #16
    dense
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭dense


    GM228 wrote: »
    *NB – this is not a request for legal advise, rather just on the topic of legal discussion/opinion.


    Just a quick question before I get into it - We spoke briefly about graveyard law last year and I had previously read some research on the topic, I mentioned the Rules and Regulations for the Regulation of Burial Grounds 1888 (regulations which were made under S181 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878) which are still in force. Despite my usual best efforts it would seem impossible to get a copy of the 1888 regulations, anybody have or know where I could get a copy? Would such be available on any of the usual DBs?

    Anyway, onto the topic I want to discuss, which is S182 of the Public Health (Ireland) Act 1878 which states:-




    NUTLEY BOY previously raised an interesting question regarding S182 here:-




    Recently I looked at the topic again so I put that question to Transport Infrastructure Ireland for their view, this was their reply:-




    Yes it is true that the 1878 Act was passed without reference to a MPV (obviously as the term did not exist at the time), and that the toll is made against a MPV, but a MPV also forms part of a procession.

    The point I would make is that it does not have to state MPV as S182 specifically states that “no funeral procession” shall be subject to “any toll”. It’s an Act still in force and therefore still as relevant as the modern Road Acts and just because it does not state MPV does not dismiss the legislative intent made out that a funeral procession is exempt from tolls

    So do you agree or not?

    I would agree, in theory.

    The definition of "procession" comprises of "people" and "vehicles", so vehicles in the funeral procession shouldn't be charged (MPV or other), and nether should people on foot.

    Of course the separate difficulty then arises in deciding which vehicle is the last one in the procession.

    How would the toll operator know who to charge?

    How many vehicles will be in the funeral procession that you say shouldn't be charged a toll? ;)


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