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Is a bicycle with a motor a motorcycle?

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  • 25-01-2017 6:43pm
    #1
    Boaty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 615 ✭✭✭


    I'm assuming a bicycle with a petrol engine is classed as a motorbike but what about a pedal bike with an electric motor ? Is this classed as a bicycle?

    Is there anything stopping a commuter from getting a high powered electric bicycle capable of let's say 70 kmph from zipping down the cycle/bus lane?
    Do bicycles also have to abide by speed limits?


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    #2
    blackbox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,156 ✭✭✭blackbox


    ...and yes, bicycles are supposed comply with speed limits.


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    #3
    flutered
    Registered Users Posts: 6,670 ✭✭✭flutered


    there are limits on the motor size,hereabouts they are the thing to get for folks who have lost their driving licence, more use them for a trip to the pub


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    #4
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    OSI wrote: »
    If the bike is capable of exceeding 25km/h under it's own propulsion (ie, the user isn't pedalling) then it's considered a motor vehicle.

    Speed is irrelevant, once a bike can move under it's own power it's classed as a mechanically propelled vehicle irrespective of the speed and weather or not the motor/engine is actually used.


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    #5
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    blackbox wrote: »
    ...and yes, bicycles are supposed comply with speed limits.

    Speed limits do not apply to bicycles, just mechanically propelled vehicles, it would only apply if there was an engine/motor.


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    #6
    Get Real
    Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭Get Real


    A bike with an engine/electric motor is a vehicle. Doesn't matter what speed it is capable of. That's only a myth.

    Road traffic act:
    “mechanically propelled vehicle” means, subject to subsection (2) of this section, a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

    (a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, whether or not the attachment is being used,

    (b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical

    In theory, If you're on one of these and crash you're liable for no insurance, no tax etc.

    Now that law would in theory cover even the likes of a mobility scooter. Bit in practice, no judge would prosecute an oap going down to the shops for milk.

    It's only when an incident happens that they become an issue, if you were to crash with a car etc.

    Basically people buy them and use them and all is well and good, then something happens and they can get done for numerous offences.

    The radio ads and businesses promoting them don't tell you that of course.


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    #7
    blackbox
    Registered Users Posts: 4,156 ✭✭✭blackbox


    GM228 wrote: »
    Speed limits do not apply to bicycles, just mechanically propelled vehicles, it would only apply if there was an engine/motor.

    It appears that you are right and I was wrong.

    Always good to learn something new!


    .


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    #8
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Get Real wrote: »

    It's only when an incident happens that they become an issue, if you were to crash with a car etc.

    .

    The Garda are seizing them. No different to someone on a 50cc motocross/pit bike on the main rd.


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    #9
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,239 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    blackbox wrote: »
    It appears that you are right and I was wrong.

    Always good to learn something new!


    .
    Nonononononono. :mad:

    This is 'the internet'. We won't have that sort of crazy talk around here. Jeez. You'll have us all shut down. 'You are right and I was wrong'? Seriously?!? Who even thinks like that?

    :(


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    #10
    mjsc1970
    Registered Users Posts: 643 ✭✭✭mjsc1970


    While sitting at a red light on my motorbike on the way home this evening in fairview, one of these bicycles with a motor came hareing thru the lights (between me and a bus). I heard it coming but looked on my rear view mirror and saw nowt, he'd no lights, then frightened the sheyite out of me like he came from nowhere.

    I cant see him lasting that long in rush hour traffic acting the maggot like that.

    I can see why riding a bicycle there are times ye would want a bit of help with the legs, but blazing around at speed and only having basic cantilever brakes to stop ye ye would wanna be mad in the head.


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    #11
    stewygriffin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,936 ✭✭✭stewygriffin


    Those Rikshaws should be banned off the streets.

    Someone will be killed in one of them things,they way they are riden around town by the numpties who ride them.


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    #12
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Boaty wrote: »
    I'm assuming a bicycle with a petrol engine is classed as a motorbike but what about a pedal bike with an electric motor ? Is this classed as a bicycle?

    Is there anything stopping a commuter from getting a high powered electric bicycle capable of let's say 70 kmph from zipping down the cycle/bus lane?
    Do bicycles also have to abide by speed limits?

    Electric bikes have certain rules
    1. Motor must only operate when bike is being pedalled (no throttle , engine can only assist )
    2. Motor must cut off at 25kmh
    3. Motor must be less than 250Watts


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    #13
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    blackbox wrote: »
    ...and yes, bicycles are supposed comply with speed limits.

    No they are exempt


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    #14
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GM228 wrote: »
    Speed is irrelevant, once a bike can move under it's own power it's classed as a mechanically propelled vehicle irrespective of the speed and weather or not the motor/engine is actually used.

    Speed is relevant.


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    #15
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,738 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    So all electric bicycles need tax insurance and a license to use ??

    ALL

    You see electric bicycles everywhere, even kids use them.

    So what the hell are ye on about .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bbRP-Hn1Eo

    So this kid could be done for no tax no insurance no drivers license , and this video evidence could convict her ?


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    #16
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    So all electric bicycles need tax insurance and a license to use ??

    ALL

    You see electric bicycles everywhere, even kids use them.

    So what the hell are ye on about .

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bbRP-Hn1Eo

    So this kid could be done for no tax no insurance no drivers license , and this video evidence could convict her ?

    Just the ones that don't meet the criteria above.

    ********
    (c) cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling, an
    ************^^^^

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32002L0024


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    #17
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ted1 wrote: »
    Speed is relevant.

    Not for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act to be categorised as a mechanically propelled vehicle.


    ted1 wrote: »
    Electric bikes have certain rules
    1. Motor must only operate when bike is being pedalled (no throttle , engine can only assist )
    2. Motor must cut off at 25kmh
    3. Motor must be less than 250Watts
    ted1 wrote: »
    Just the ones that don't meet the criteria above.

    ********
    (c) cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of 0.25 kW of which the output is progressively reduced and finally cut off as the vehicle reaches a speed of 25 km/h, or sooner, if the cyclist stops pedalling, an
    ************^^^^

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2005/si/412/made/en/print

    http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/ALL/?uri=CELEX:32002L0024


    What you mention in those two quotes no longer applies since 2015. They were based on EU type approval regulations which had nothing to do with matters relating to the road traffic acts.

    The only other pace where those conditions would have been mentioned in Irish law were to be in the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (S118 as amended) and would only relate to matters dealing with the general benefits in kind payments, a tax law rather than a road or vehicle classification law, however the amendment which was made under the Finance (No.2) Act 2008 never commenced and as a result those conditions are no longer mentioned anywhere in law.


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    #18
    Lyle Lanley
    Registered Users Posts: 642 ✭✭✭Lyle Lanley


    Get Real wrote: »

    Now that law would in theory cover even the likes of a mobility scooter. Bit in practice, no judge would prosecute an oap going down to the shops for milk.
    In the Canaries I've seen mobility scooters being driven on the motorway.


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    #19
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,915 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    prinzeugen wrote: »
    The Garda are seizing them. No different to someone on a 50cc motocross/pit bike on the main rd.

    Not enough. Saw a hipster baiting up the footpath beside Clarehall on what looked like a fold up bicycle, I could hear the 2 stroke coming for miles and when I saw what it was I got a bit of a shock as I was expecting a teenager on a scrambler. The Garda car ahead of me didn't bother with the motorcycle been rode at speed on a footpath.


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    #20
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,017 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Yesterday whilst walking along the edge of the footpath on Camden Street I almost got clipped by a Deliveroo rider on an illegal petrol powered bicycle buzzing along in the cycle lane.

    Welcome to the sharing economy.


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    #21
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GM228 wrote: »
    Not for the purposes of the Road Traffic Act to be categorised as a mechanically propelled vehicle.







    What you mention in those two quotes no longer applies since 2015. They were based on EU type approval regulations which had nothing to do with matters relating to the road traffic acts.

    The only other pace where those conditions would have been mentioned in Irish law were to be in the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997 (S118 as amended) and would only relate to matters dealing with the general benefits in kind payments, a tax law rather than a road or vehicle classification law, however the amendment which was made under the Finance (No.2) Act 2008 never commenced and as a result those conditions are no longer mentioned anywhere in law.

    Ni they are still relevant, as is speed because if the motor operates above 25kph it's no longer classed asa pedelec


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    #22
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ted1 wrote: »
    Ni they are still relevant, as is speed because if the motor operates above 25kph it's no longer classed asa pedelec

    But we are not talking about classification of cycles, pedelecs etc, we are talking about vehicle types which fall into the mechanically propelled vehicle category for the purposes of the road traffic acts.

    Speed and power (which is 1000W now, not 250W) is only relevant for classification of L1e-A vehicles (powered cycles) for the EU technical requirements for the type-approval of new vehicles. EU type approval and vehicle classification has nothing whatsoever to do with Road Traffic Acts and the types of vehicles covered by such.

    Speed and power is irrelevant for the purposes of the RTAs, any cycle with any attachment for propelling it by mechanical power (whether or not the attachment is being used) is classed as a mechanically propelled vehicle for the purposes of the RTAs and speed or power is irrelevant for that classification.


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    #23
    dashcamdanny
    Registered Users Posts: 1,920 ✭✭✭dashcamdanny


    look

    http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_80cc+/


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    #24
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GM228 wrote: »
    But we are not talking about classification of cycles, pedelecs

    Yes we are, that's what the OP asked


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    #25
    prinzeugen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    dashcamdanny wrote: »
    look

    http://www.adverts.ie/for-sale/q_80cc+/

    That is the sort of thing the Garda are lifting. Needs to road reg, taxed and insured.

    Try getting a compliance cert for one of them!!!

    The rider needs a min cat M for the 50cc or A1 for 80cc.

    In regular contact with the Garda at work and I asked one what the position was with these things.

    They said "If the motor/engine is capable of propelling the cycle without the rider having to pedal, it is a MPV and needs licence, etc"

    I remember the shop on Camden St that was selling electric scooters. Didn't last long as they had to be road legal.


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    #26
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ted1 wrote: »
    GM228 wrote: »
    ted1 wrote: »
    Ni they are still relevant, as is speed because if the motor operates above 25kph it's no longer classed asa pedelec

    But we are not talking about classification of cycles, pedelecs

    Yes we are, that's what the OP asked

    My response was in your relation to your post regarding classification of a pedelec based on speed, that is not what the OP asked.

    The OP asked if an electric bicycle is simply a bicycle, it is not, it's a mechanically propelled vehicle to which speeds etc and the classification of an electric bicycle are irrelevant. Speeds and the definitions of bicycles and pedelecs are irrelevant.
    Boaty wrote: »
    I'm assuming a bicycle with a petrol engine is classed as a motorbike but what about a pedal bike with an electric motor ? Is this classed as a bicycle?




    Bar the EU technical requirements for the type-approval of new vehicles there is no distinction between bicycle or electric bicycle and there's also actually no definition of "pedelec" either, pedalec is a definition which isn't actually defined in Irish or EU law, it's simply a generally used term for a powered cycle which falls into a certain category of electric bicycle which is exempt from the provisions of the EUs technical requirements. Electrical bicycles which fall outside those limits are still electrical bicycles and then subject to the technical requirements.

    So to go back and answer the OPs question once again an electric bicycle is simply a "vehicle", or more specifically a "mechanically propelled vehicle".

    To answer the OPs question based solely on the EU technical requirements (which are irrelevant for the purposes of their question):-

    If the speed was above 25 km/h but under 45km/h and power was over 1000W but under 4500W it would be a L1e "light two wheel powered vehicle", any other electric bicycle not in the L1e or L1e-A category would be considered a L1e-B "two wheel moped", but never a motorcycle.

    In relation to to the OPs purpose of the question of using a bus lane, speed etc all that matters is the road traffic act and weather an electric bicycle falls into the category of "pedal cycle" or "mechanically propelled vehicle". An electric bicycle falls into the latter.


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    #27
    ted1
    Registered Users Posts: 23,318 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    GM228 wrote: »
    My response was in your relation to your post regarding classification of a pedelec based on speed, that is not what the OP asked.

    The OP asked if an electric bicycle is simply a bicycle, it is not, it's a mechanically propelled vehicle to which speeds etc and the classification of an electric bicycle are irrelevant. Speeds and the definitions of bicycles and pedelecs are irrelevant.






    Bar the EU technical requirements for the type-approval of new vehicles there is no distinction between bicycle or electric bicycle and there's also actually no definition of "pedelec" either, pedalec is a definition which isn't actually defined in Irish or EU law, it's simply a generally used term for a powered cycle which falls into a certain category of electric bicycle which is exempt from the provisions of the EUs technical requirements. Electrical bicycles which fall outside those limits are still electrical bicycles and then subject to the technical requirements.

    So to go back and answer the OPs question once again an electric bicycle is simply a "vehicle", or more specifically a "mechanically propelled vehicle".

    To answer the OPs question based solely on the EU technical requirements (which are irrelevant for the purposes of their question):-

    If the speed was above 25 km/h but under 45km/h and power was over 1000W but under 4500W it would be a L1e "light two wheel powered vehicle", any other electric bicycle not in the L1e or L1e-A category would be considered a L1e-B "two wheel moped", but never a motorcycle.

    In relation to to the OPs purpose of the question of using a bus lane, speed etc all that matters is the road traffic act and weather an electric bicycle falls into the category of "pedal cycle" or "mechanically propelled vehicle". An electric bicycle falls into the latter.

    That's an EU directive right ? Has it been written into law in Ireland ? If so they can you link to the SI. I'd be genuinely interested unseen it.


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    #28
    GM228
    Registered Users Posts: 8,925 ✭✭✭GM228


    ted1 wrote: »
    That's an EU directive right ? Has it been written into law in Ireland ? If so they can you link to the SI. I'd be genuinely interested unseen it.

    Which part?

    The technical specifications are now an EU Regulation (168/2013) as opposed to a Directive meaning they don't have to be transposed into Irish law - although they actually have been under the European Union (Two or Three Wheel Motor Vehicles and Quadricycles Type-Approval) Regulations 2015 (SI 614/2015). Both the EU Directive and SI you previously quoted were revoked in 2015.

    The vehicle, pedal cycle and mechanically propelled vehicles definitions are covered under the Road Traffic Acts which is the only relevant law when it comes to vehicle use and classification on our roads.


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