Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The Hand-Pass Problem.

Options
  • 30-10-2016 8:13pm
    #1
    Bleating Lamb
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭


    Was talking to a man in his seventies yesterday who was a well respected club footballer in his native county in his day.

    He was saying to me that in the last year he has stopped going to watch his clubs games as he hates "to see too much bloody handpassing".
    He said the straw that broke the camel's back for him was when his clubs goalie got four fisted backpasses in one game....

    Have to say I see where he's coming from....watched some of the Glenswilly Kilcoo game on TG 4 today....it was like Basketball with a very odd kickpass thrown in.

    So is there a rule change needed asap?....to lessen the number of handpasses or was that old man just being grumpy:)?


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    big_drive
    Registered Users Posts: 3,141 ✭✭✭big_drive


    Think there was a motion put to congress few years ago something like 2 hand passes in a row and the ball had to be kicked. Didn't get much support from what I remember


  • Options
    #3
    Bleating Lamb
    Registered Users Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Bleating Lamb


    big_drive wrote: »
    Think there was a motion put to congress few years ago something like 2 hand passes in a row and the ball had to be kicked. Didn't get much support from what I remember

    Have to say imo that is the most painless and easiest refereable solution to it.


  • Options
    #4
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Bleating Lamb wrote: »
    Have to say imo that is the most painless and easiest refereable solution to it.

    No it isn't.

    If interpreted by a negative coach (and you can be sure that would happen) teams would just allow most of their players to retreat and force a long aimless kick.Also there would be nothing with a rule like that to stop a short 2 yard kickpass.

    The blanket defence is the problem not handpassing. Excessive handpassing is the result of the problem.


  • Options
    #5
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,326 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Bleating Lamb wrote: »
    Was talking to a man in his seventies yesterday who was a well respected club footballer in his native county in his day.

    He was saying to me that in the last year he has stopped going to watch his clubs games as he hates "to see too much bloody handpassing".
    He said the straw that broke the camel's back for him was when his clubs goalie got four fisted backpasses in one game....

    Have to say I see where he's coming from....watched some of the Glenswilly Kilcoo game on TG 4 today....it was like Basketball with a very odd kickpass thrown in.

    So is there a rule change needed asap?....to lessen the number of handpasses or was that old man just being grumpy:)?

    Fk him to be honest.
    Game theory and tactics evolve in every sport at a frightening rate. Todays 20 year olds will probably have the same sense of discomfort in 50 years time but it still won't be a reaon to turn back the clock.


  • Options
    #6
    Davys Fits
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    The hand passing in football is an epidemic at this stage. The ratio of hanpasses to kicks is around 5/1 on a good day and around 20/1 in some cases and is brutal to watch. Calling this a tactical evolution of the game is burying ones head in the sand. This has changed the core of the game which is the kick. Nothing tactical about that. Limiting to 2 is worth a try. I would love to see the same happen in hurling.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #7
    Dirty Dingus McGee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,631 ✭✭✭Dirty Dingus McGee


    Davys Fits wrote: »
    The hand passing in football is an epidemic at this stage. The ratio of hanpasses to kicks is around 5/1 on a good day and around 20/1 in some cases and is brutal to watch. Calling this a tactical evolution of the game is burying ones head in the sand. This has changed the core of the game which is the kick. Nothing tactical about that. Limiting to 2 is worth a try. I would love to see the same happen in hurling.

    You can't limit it without getting rid of the blanket defence first.

    Until the blanket defence tactic is dealt with every other change is pointless.


  • Options
    #8
    HanaleiJ5N
    Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭HanaleiJ5N


    Both codes have their issues with the hand pass.

    In football, awful and all as it can sometimes be when done to death at least it's more often than not executed within the rules, although on second thought, some borderline throws. It would be interesting if hand-passing in football was restricted to closed fist passing only...

    In hurling the "hand-passing" is a bit of a joke, probably an even three way split between legitimate passes, borderline throws, and blatant throws.

    Both codes should require a clear strike of the ball with the open hand, this rolling it off the open palm is effectively throwing. Anything borderline is let go in the name of "not disrupting the flow of the game".


  • Options
    #9
    Kavrocks
    Registered Users Posts: 2,345 ✭✭✭Kavrocks


    HanaleiJ5N wrote: »
    Anything borderline is let go in the name of "not disrupting the flow of the game".
    No it's not. Anything borderline is let go because the referee must be 100% sure that (s)he has seen a foul.


  • Options
    #10
    NiallBoo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,504 ✭✭✭NiallBoo


    There's a problem with the way teams are defending and people want to stop this by punishing the attacking team?

    I don't get it.

    When you take options away from the attacking team, that just means that defenders have one less thing to worry about and can kill the game even better.


  • Options
    #11
    HanaleiJ5N
    Closed Accounts Posts: 335 ✭✭HanaleiJ5N


    Kavrocks wrote: »
    No it's not. Anything borderline is let go because the referee must be 100% sure that (s)he has seen a foul.

    That's not entirely true now or at the very least it's not strictly adhered to. That and plenty of other rules are not always strictly imposed in the name of letting the game flow, referees are complimented all the time for taking such an approach to the game.

    Referee's who strictly stick by the rules and pull the players up on every little infringement get lynched by players, coaches, supporters, media, etc., a lot of things are not pulled up unless blatant in the name of letting the game flow, by and large it's a good thing and has a positive impact on games. But one area I would welcome a tightening of the rules is in hand passing.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #12
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    NiallBoo wrote: »
    There's a problem with the way teams are defending and people want to stop this by punishing the attacking team?

    I don't get it.

    When you take options away from the attacking team, that just means that defenders have one less thing to worry about and can kill the game even better.

    There is a big difference between the attacking team and the team in possession, the majority of the across the field and backwards handpassing takes place in the team in possession's half of the field.

    But as DDM says the handpass is not the problem per say its the blanket defence and sweepers that are the root of the problem.


  • Options
    #13
    Prop Joe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,368 ✭✭✭Prop Joe


    A simple rule change that could be implemented at all levels,Easy to police by the ref and easy for players to understand

    "To play the ball over the half way line there must be 3 players ahead of the ball as it crosses"

    This would change defensive and attacking strategies overnight and would encourage teams to play more permanent forwards and increase kicking


  • Options
    #14
    BonnieSituation
    Registered Users Posts: 18,923 ✭✭✭✭BonnieSituation


    Prop Joe wrote: »
    A simple rule change that could be implemented at all levels,Easy to police by the ref and easy for players to understand

    "To play the ball over the half way line there must be 3 players ahead of the ball as it crosses"

    This would change defensive and attacking strategies overnight and would encourage teams to play more permanent forwards and increase kicking

    So in essence an "offside rule"?

    I'm sick to death of the "hand-pass" and the "blanket defence" and "sweepers" causing all the ills. There's so much more that need tightening up and in a few years these ills will be something new as people counteract the latest innovation.

    As Tyrone begat Donegal begat Dublin etc

    Perhaps allowing only forward hand-passes might remove the negative play, but as has been said on here before when Donegal were moving through the phases with swift off the shoulder accurate hand-passing how was that not to be praised? Wonderful football.

    Old men as in the OP always hark back (like that absolute tool of a lad I had to put up with whinging in CP during Dub-Don in the League lamenting about "...this Dublin team not being great", but if we implement what they want we'll end up with Aussie Rules and a load of kick-and-hope shoite "perfected" in the 70s by the "greats".

    Watch a different game, cos football has never been better in my lifetime.


  • Options
    #15
    Glenbhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,852 ✭✭✭Glenbhoy


    Davys Fits wrote: »
    The hand passing in football is an epidemic at this stage. The ratio of hanpasses to kicks is around 5/1 on a good day and around 20/1 in some cases and is brutal to watch. Calling this a tactical evolution of the game is burying ones head in the sand. This has changed the core of the game which is the kick. Nothing tactical about that. Limiting to 2 is worth a try. I would love to see the same happen in hurling.

    I arrived in dublin 20 yrs ago, a fresh faced immigrant from the north. At the club I joined initially I was constantly slagged about so-called 'northern tactics', namely, excessive hand passing, it was suggested that soon the national basketball stadium in tallaght would be hosting all ireland finals and not croke park, hurling snobs spoke of today's (90's) football being unwatchable due the lack of kicking, galway in 98 were lauded as the first kicking team of the decade, set to bring about a new era of 50's football (well down revolutionised the game in the 60's with the adoption of the hand pass and kerry were fond of it in the 70's). It didn't happen, tactics and player conditioning have moved on. Hand passing isn't the problem, donegal or the earlier tyrone teams in their pomp played excellent attacking football, dynamically breaking at speed, primarily hand passing, but using long balls If the opportunity presented itself.
    If we're going to mess with rules again, we should take a look at the sin bin, team fouls rules or the requirement to keep a certain number of players in each half at any one time.

    And how could I forget, the one rule I would really love to bring into both codes is a min distance for kickouts/puck outs. To my mind, many of the current criticisms stem from there, and it would/could increase the amount of hood old fashioned midfield tussles craved by our nostalgic older supporters!!


  • Options
    #16
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,156 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    I'd rate cynical fouling and short kickouts to be a just as much a blight on the game to be honest. High fielding and the excitement of the 'breaking ball' are almost a thing of the past unfortunately. Football has become a progressively more boring sport to watch with each passing year. We are lucky to get 1-2 good entertaining games each championship at this stage, and more and more games are being decided by free taking due to systematic fouling.

    The skill levels, fitness and general preparation are better than ever now but the quality of games is suffering badly due to the tactics employed by teams.


  • Options
    #17
    danganabu
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,277 ✭✭✭danganabu


    Short re-starts and excessive hand passing are symptoms of the same problem, they are not the cause.


  • Options
    #18
    Davys Fits
    Registered Users Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Davys Fits


    The biggest problem is that so may punters cant agree on what the problem is. The thread is about the hand pass but everything else is to blame it would seem.


  • Options
    #19
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    I've been watching football for over 40 years. This Dublin team is most entertaining team I've ever watched.

    It is not their problem if other teams set out with no intention to do anything other than keep the score down!

    Which is why Dubs, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone consistently end up in last four or finals. Because they have a bit of adventure about them. Same applies to Tipp this year. They were not afraid to go out and play. Some teams are just embarrassing to watch. Even in Dublin final, it was Vinnies kick passing and use of space that won it against a team whose entire game plan was to get everyone inside their own 40, dive, and hope they got enough frees. That's nothing to do with Vinnies! They try to play the game.


  • Options
    #20
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,654 ✭✭✭elefant


    Bonniedog wrote: »

    Which is why Dubs, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone consistently end up in last four or finals. Because they have a bit of adventure about them.

    They consistently get to the last four because they have the best players.


  • Options
    #21
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    elefant wrote: »
    They consistently get to the last four because they have the best players.

    Who play football!

    It is chicken and egg situation.

    Mediocre teams might get so far with 250 hand passes across the half back line, but they'll always meet a team that will beat them. Thankfully. Same applies in all sports. Negativity only has short life span.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #22
    StupidLikeAFox
    Registered Users Posts: 7,699 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    BonnieSituation wrote: »
    Old men as in the OP always hark back (like that absolute tool of a lad I had to put up with whinging in CP during Dub-Don in the League lamenting about "...this Dublin team not being great", but if we implement what they want we'll end up with Aussie Rules and a load of kick-and-hope shoite "perfected" in the 70s by the "greats".

    I guess those games were more exciting because it was more of a free for all and a bit unpredictable. Teams these days place more value on holding possession and making use of the ball rather than lashing it up the field and hoping for the best. Hand passing, short kickouts etc are just a by-product of that mentality, and its very hard to legislate against


  • Options
    #23
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    StupidLikeAFox wrote: »
    I guess those games were more exciting because it was more of a free for all and a bit unpredictable. Teams these days place more value on holding possession and making use of the ball rather than lashing it up the field and hoping for the best. Hand passing, short kickouts etc are just a by-product of that mentality, and its very hard to legislate against

    All team sports have evolved same way. How often do you see a rugby team kicking Garryowens? Or NFL QBs throwing hail marys? Or hurler pulling on a ball on the ground?

    Its all down to stats. Possession is key. They are all obsessed with it. Difference between good teams and bad is good teams have that extra bit of class. You can't plan for the likes of Gooch or Connolly or Canavan or Callanan.


  • Options
    #24
    elefant
    Registered Users Posts: 4,654 ✭✭✭elefant


    Bonniedog wrote: »
    Who play football!

    It is chicken and egg situation.

    Mediocre teams might get so far with 250 hand passes across the half back line, but they'll always meet a team that will beat them. Thankfully. Same applies in all sports. Negativity only has short life span.

    I disagree completely.
    They could play any style of football, and they'd still be consistently in the mix for reaching the semi-finals. Donegal play some horrendously negative stuff at times. Their Ulster final against Monaghan last year was a prime example.

    Negative football just gives poorer teams a chance at keeping the score down and avoid taking terrible beatings. Westmeath could go out, not being 'afraid to play' and get a 30 point trouncing off Dublin. Or they can play ultra-negatively and stay within 5 points at half-time.

    You say: 'It is not their problem if other teams set out with no intention to do anything other than keep the score down!

    Which is why Dubs, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone consistently end up in last four or finals. Because they have a bit of adventure about them.'

    Do you think Laois could reach the All-Ireland final if they had a bit of adventure about them?


  • Options
    #25
    Bonniedog
    Registered Users Posts: 6,665 ✭✭✭Bonniedog


    elefant wrote: »
    I disagree completely.
    They could play any style of football, and they'd still be consistently in the mix for reaching the semi-finals. Donegal play some horrendously negative stuff at times. Their Ulster final against Monaghan last year was a prime example.

    Negative football just gives poorer teams a chance at keeping the score down and avoid taking terrible beatings. Westmeath could go out, not being 'afraid to play' and get a 30 point trouncing off Dublin. Or they can play ultra-negatively and stay within 5 points at half-time.

    You say: 'It is not their problem if other teams set out with no intention to do anything other than keep the score down!

    Which is why Dubs, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal, Tyrone consistently end up in last four or finals. Because they have a bit of adventure about them.'

    Do you think Laois could reach the All-Ireland final if they had a bit of adventure about them?


    When Laois were 11 down against Dublin in Kilkenny, they decided to have a cut off them; scored two goals in a few minutes and were within 4 points at one stage.

    So no, perhaps not an AI final, but they not be where they are now, for sure.


Advertisement