Notice today of over 20% increase in rent?!

The Spider · 02-12-2014 11:56am

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Comparisons with London are meaningless to be honest.

Average two bed prices per month
Dublin €1100-1200
Birmingham €867
Edinburgh €1074
Manchester €913
Liverpool €651
Sheffield €758
Glasgow €728
Newcastle €765
Nottingham €772
London €3300 no comparison

Dublin looks cheap for a capital city of a country to be honest.

JoeCole26 · 02-12-2014 12:18pm

Has anyone heard of any scenarios of where people have gone to the PRTB about rent increases - what was the outcome?

Im guessing that these new professional landlords take over apartment blocks, increase the rent by amounts we have seen here - alot of people will be disgusted with the increases but will pay the asking increased rent. The fact that some people pay these increased amounts is probably enough for PRTB to assume this is the market rate.

The Spider · 02-12-2014 12:28pm

JoeCole26 wrote: »

Has anyone heard of any scenarios of where people have gone to the PRTB about rent increases - what was the outcome?

Im guessing that these new professional landlords take over apartment blocks, increase the rent by amounts we have seen here - alot of people will be disgusted with the increases but will pay the asking increased rent. The fact that some people pay these increased amounts is probably enough for PRTB to assume this is the market rate.

The thing is there was a lot of talk around these parts looking for professional landlords to come in and provide blocks to rent, as opposed to the traditional small time Irish landlord, this is what you see now and it shows that when you have big business involved it's all about profit and maximising return.

It's hard to negotiate with a corporation, and that corporation can set the rental price in one fell swoop on an area if they own all the property there.

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 12:42pm

JoeCole26 wrote: »

Has anyone heard of any scenarios of where people have gone to the PRTB about rent increases - what was the outcome?

Im guessing that these new professional landlords take over apartment blocks, increase the rent by amounts we have seen here - alot of people will be disgusted with the increases but will pay the asking increased rent. The fact that some people pay these increased amounts is probably enough for PRTB to assume this is the market rate.

I've just had a look at a few of the decisions - any of the ones from 2014 for rent increases that I've found, the PRTB have not agreed with the tenants and the landlord has been granted the increase and the back payment of the difference.

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 12:51pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I've just had a look at a few of the decisions - any of the ones from 2014 for rent increases that I've found, the PRTB have not agreed with the tenants and the landlord has been granted the increase and the back payment of the difference.

Does it go into detail of what the increase was?

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 12:52pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Does it go into detail of what the increase was?

It states the new monthly amount to be paid to the landlord.

D12resident · 02-12-2014 12:56pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

I've just had a look at a few of the decisions - any of the ones from 2014 for rent increases that I've found, the PRTB have not agreed with the tenants and the landlord has been granted the increase and the back payment of the difference.

Where can you find this info?

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 12:57pm

D12resident wrote: »

Where can you find this info?

On the prtb website.

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/prtb-dispute-outcomes

hfallada · 02-12-2014 1:02pm

Like its extremely hard to argue a market rent, as its basically any amount that anyone is willing to pay. If there is no supply and huge amount of demand. People will pay 1100 for a ****ty 1 bed in Dublin 1. Yet people who were paying 700 and now asked to pay 900. Which is still below market rate, are outraged and think the PRTB should keep the increase as low as possible.

In Economics you learn the market sets the rate in the long term. As supply increases, price will eventually fall. I cant see this happening in the next few years, as supply is way too small. Take the new Bolands development. It has 42 new apartments but over 30.000 sq metres of office space(high quality space is badly needed). There needs to be more apartments built, but Dublin only ever gets ****ty 3 bed semi-Ds in the sticks

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 1:11pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

It states the new monthly amount to be paid to the landlord.

Do you have an example? Their search mechanism on the site is terrible. It would be interesting to see what level they're agreeing is market rate.

D12resident · 02-12-2014 1:11pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

On the prtb website.

That's very helpful, didn't know this was available. A lot of information here.

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 1:22pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Do you have an example? Their search mechanism on the site is terrible. It would be interesting to see what level they're agreeing is market rate.

Few different examples over the year below.

Order from May - Landlord won, tenant has to pay increased amount and arrears.
http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/do-dr0114-09681.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Order from May - agreed amount back dated to March - This maybe a mutual agreement between parties.
http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/do-dr-1113-09056.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Order from July - PRTB stating the market rent is a certain amount (no indication of which side won).
http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/do-dr0314-10905.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Order from October - agreed amount back dated to August.
http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/dr0214-10651.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Order from October - tenants claim is not upheld, ordered to pay the arrears and the new rent.
http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/dr0214-10531.pdf?sfvrsn=0

Order from October - tenant won their case.

http://www.prtb.ie/docs/default-source/default-document-library/dr0614-12868-0614-12671.pdf?sfvrsn=0

lima · 02-12-2014 1:46pm

Beaner1 wrote: »

You are comparing it to London which has one of the toughest rental markets in the world. Dublin is a backwater in world terms.

True but 400k irish born live in London

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 2:06pm

The_Morrigan wrote: »

Few different examples over the year below.

Why are the PRTB so frustrating with their published results? As you've shown, sometimes you can't even see which side won.

They all seemed fair enough. The only dodgy looking one was Montgomery Court asking for €1250 but I found a let agreed on daft for a two-bed there only in September of €1350. Again, I can't tell what kind of place the PRTB one was (two-bed, one-bed, etc.), but it shows it could be chancers taking things to the PRTB or landlords backing down before it gets that far if they know they'll lose.

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 2:16pm

lima wrote: »

True but 400k irish born live in London

400k in all of England and Wales, not just London. How does that make the comparison with London any more relevant to the discussion at hand? London is not a valid comparison for the rental market in Dublin.

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 2:19pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Why are the PRTB so frustrating with their published results? As you've shown, sometimes you can't even see which side won.

They all seemed fair enough. The only dodgy looking one was Montgomery Court asking for €1250 but I found a let agreed on daft for a two-bed there only in September of €1350. Again, I can't tell what kind of place the PRTB one was (two-bed, one-bed, etc.), but it shows it could be chancers taking things to the PRTB or landlords backing down before it gets that far if they know they'll lose.

It's impossible to tell what happened. The database isn't even in date order, making it impossible to find recent rulings over ones from earlier in the year.
I do wish they made publications like the courts do.

D12resident · 02-12-2014 2:24pm

They do

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/tribunals/tribunal-reports-orders/2014?page=1

A lot more information on the report pdfs, but not as up to date

JoeCole26 · 02-12-2014 2:24pm

Slightly off topic, but dont know why Nama didnt allocate a certain % of apartments for sale to the general public rather than selling the entire blocks to "professional landlords" or REITS. I understand NAMA is set up to be as profitable as possible, but this is a massive oversight on the Governments behalf.

For example, Wyckham Point in Dundrum, was sold in Hibernia REIT. 280 apartments. If 50 of these were put on general sale at a reasonable market price then it would help people get on the property ladder and help stabilise rent in that area.

Granted, im probably dreaming that something like this would ever be considered, but its so frustrating the way things are going.

The_Morrigan · 02-12-2014 2:29pm

D12resident wrote: »

They do

http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/tribunals/tribunal-reports-orders/2014?page=1

A lot more information on the report pdfs, but not as up to date

They stop in April though - it's December, trying to rely on that information now is pointless.

Beaner1 · 02-12-2014 2:46pm

This is more reflective of most people's circumstances
.
http://www.prtb.ie/archive/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

It's also a Tribunal decision which is looked at properly.

jmayo · 02-12-2014 2:46pm

lima wrote: »

I would agree with Spider that rents are quite cheap now. When I lived in London 1br apts were about gbp1400pcm and I heard they are now going for more like gbp1600pcm

I pay e1100pcm for a 1br and I split this with my other half, which is basically a steal for me as I got a e20k pay rise to come back to Dublin!!

We shouldn't compare rental rates between Dublin and London no more than we should compare the house prices.
There is a major gulf in stature between the two cities no matter how some may view Dublin's world standing.

The Spider wrote: »

The thing is there was a lot of talk around these parts looking for professional landlords to come in and provide blocks to rent, as opposed to the traditional small time Irish landlord, this is what you see now and it shows that when you have big business involved it's all about profit and maximising return.

It's hard to negotiate with a corporation, and that corporation can set the rental price in one fell swoop on an area if they own all the property there.

I can actually see a few politicans push for protection for poor renters from evil foreigners upping their rent.
No more than the water debate, there can be votes in it.

The thing is the three major historic parties will not want to disturb the landlord class, as after all they have many members who are in said class.

hfallada wrote: »

Like its extremely hard to argue a market rent, as its basically any amount that anyone is willing to pay. If there is no supply and huge amount of demand. People will pay 1100 for a ****ty 1 bed in Dublin 1. Yet people who were paying 700 and now asked to pay 900. Which is still below market rate, are outraged and think the PRTB should keep the increase as low as possible.

In Economics you learn the market sets the rate in the long term. As supply increases, price will eventually fall. I cant see this happening in the next few years, as supply is way too small. Take the new Bolands development. It has 42 new apartments but over 30.000 sq metres of office space(high quality space is badly needed). There needs to be more apartments built, but Dublin only ever gets ****ty 3 bed semi-Ds in the sticks

IMHO rents increasing astronomically will have a major negative effect on the economy.
For instance how will the major multinationals lure people, often highly skilled non Irish, to work for them in Dublin when accomodation will be so costly.
There was one anecdotal story doing the rounds of over a dozen employees of the one Multinational turning up for one apartment viewing in Dublin.

There is a reason why Dublin gets shi**ty semi D's. It is what people want to buy long term.
And because we have neglected for years proper planned developments people do not want to live long term in apartments.

lima wrote: »

True but 400k irish born live in London

So what has that got to do with the price Irish people pay for accomodation in Dublin ?

D12resident · 02-12-2014 3:00pm

Beaner1 wrote: »

This is more reflective of most people's circumstances
.

It's also a Tribunal decision which is looked at properly.

Unfortunately that is from 2010, but wow, am I correct in understanding that this was an appeal to an original PRTB ruling? And that the appeal overruled the PRTBs finding that rent should be increased from €1800 to €2400?!

D12resident · 02-12-2014 3:02pm

[QUOTE=
I can actually see a few politicans push for protection for poor renters from evil foreigners upping their rent.
No more than the water debate, there can be votes in it.

The thing is the three major historic parties will not want to disturb the landlord class, as after all they have many members who are in said class.
[/QUOTE]

People Before Profit were very supportive of my case and offered help in setting up a residents association to fight our proposed increase.

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 3:03pm

Beaner1 wrote: »

This is more reflective of most people's circumstances
.
http://www.prtb.ie/archive/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

It's also a Tribunal decision which is looked at properly.

Now that is much better. Pity it's 3 and a half years out of date, and refers to market rents on the property for up to two years before that.

D12resident wrote: »

Unfortunately that is from 2010, but wow, am I correct in understanding that this was an appeal to an original PRTB ruling? And that the appeal overruled the PRTBs finding that rent should be increased from €1800 to €2400?!

Looks like it went to adjudication first and was appealled to the tribunal. It does indeed show that what they determine is market rate can be influenced at the hearing rather than on pure numbers in their datasets.

Beaner1 · 02-12-2014 3:05pm

D12resident wrote: »

Unfortunately that is from 2010, but wow, am I correct in understanding that this was an appeal to an original PRTB ruling? And that the appeal overruled the PRTBs finding that rent should be increased from €1800 to €2400?!

Yes but it's a rare PRTB case that really gets into the market rent argument. I've found that the PRTB can be a bit clueless at the first stage of the decision.

Most recent cases have market rent as a sideshow to landlord or tenant bad behaviour.

You will never find a case that is completely relevant to right now. The best you can do is find arguments that are valid in all market conditions.

borderlinemeath · 02-12-2014 3:13pm

Beaner1 wrote: »

This is more reflective of most people's circumstances
.
http://www.prtb.ie/archive/2011%20Disputes/Tribunals%202011/TR24.DR920.2011/Tribunal%20Report.pdf

It's also a Tribunal decision which is looked at properly.

C'mon Beaner, it's almost 4 years old so absolutely not reflective of current market forces ie, lack of stock, which is what is dictating current market rents - and will reflect PRTB decisions. The outcome of that case was based on the inclusion of 4 daft ads that indicated that the rent asked by the landlord was not in line with other properties of similar style and size in the area.

lima · 02-12-2014 3:52pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

400k in all of England and Wales, not just London. How does that make the comparison with London any more relevant to the discussion at hand? London is not a valid comparison for the rental market in Dublin.

I beleive its 1m in all of Eng/Wales but can't give you proof right now as on phone.

I agree dubin is fundamentally different to a 13m sized city such as London but my point is that some irish people have lived in London and have come back to Dublin and to them rental prices are cheap. So not everyone thinks rent is expensive.

Michael D Not Higgins · 02-12-2014 4:14pm

lima wrote: »

I beleive its 1m in all of Eng/Wales but can't give you proof right now as on phone.

I agree dubin is fundamentally different to a 13m sized city such as London but my point is that some irish people have lived in London and have come back to Dublin and to them rental prices are cheap. So not everyone thinks rent is expensive.

No it's 400k according to the census figures.

But rent clearly is expensive, more expensive than a plethora of other UK cities. London is an anomoly that should not be used for comparison.

D12resident · 02-12-2014 4:15pm

lima wrote: »

I beleive its 1m in all of Eng/Wales but can't give you proof right now as on phone.

I agree dubin is fundamentally different to a 13m sized city such as London but my point is that some irish people have lived in London and have come back to Dublin and to them rental prices are cheap. So not everyone thinks rent is expensive.

Hi Lima, appreciate your input, but you're not really adding anything to the conversation comparing London prices to Dublin. What we are talking about is current market values and annual increases applied by landlords. The London situation is what it is. If London had an annual increase of over 20% there would be uproar too I'd imagine.
And researching census statistics for the correct number of Irish people currently in the UK is not going to help people's current rental situation in Dublin

D12resident · 02-12-2014 4:16pm

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

No it's 400k according to the census figures.

Haha, I spoke too soon....

Notice today of over 20% increase in rent?!

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