Land Improvements thread

bob charles · 20-08-2013 6:13pm #1

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

Milton09 · 20-08-2013 6:31pm

One thing I've learned is that regardless of land type if it needs draining then the drains should be filled to the top with stone. I'm after going through a painful experience of having to dig the top layer off land drains that I put in in 2003. they weren't working so now they are filled to the top and hopefully it will make a difference. I'd post a pic but its an embarassing mess and in reality I would have been better off making completely new drains.

P.S. Good idea for a thread !

agriman27 · 20-08-2013 6:44pm

I did a good bit of mole ploughing yesterday and today finally got it set up properly and ground conditions are perfect at the moment didn't put in any shores but couldn't let the opportunity pass:pac:

F.D · 21-08-2013 10:35am

bob charles wrote: »

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

We Dug some shores in lacky ground last year and filled with smaller stone, right to the top, once you plough it mixes through anyway so it hard to know if its any advantage, one thing we noticed after there was pools of water within 6 inches of it where we dug personally i would go with what ever stone is cheaper and make more shores

Going forward... · 21-08-2013 2:37pm

South Western Forestry are the only solution for some of the fields I see lads pumping money into.

towzer2010 · 21-08-2013 3:24pm

Going forward... wrote: »

South Western Forestry are the only solution for some of the fields I see lads pumping money into.

What do you do if you are based in the North West..............

td5man · 21-08-2013 4:23pm

towzer2010 wrote: »

What do you do if you are based in the North West..............

Greenbelt.

towzer2010 · 21-08-2013 4:41pm

td5man wrote: »

Greenbelt.

Ah I see.... so not the only solution:D

F.D · 21-08-2013 4:43pm

Funny the best people can come up with is trees when it comes to land improvments, good thing there no chance of a famine again
Old fellas around me keep saying theres no such thing as bad land just bad drainage,

Going forward... · 21-08-2013 5:57pm

Living in cloud cuckoo land if you believe that. Or else you haven't seen bad land.

st1979 · 21-08-2013 7:15pm

Christ sake if you saw my neighbours land you would think we were mad farming at all. I concur about bad drainage. A lot of land could be substantially improve by bit of drainage work and general better care. Around here it is a must to have deep open drains around fields and if you can a pipe into wet spots. But most of all a plough every decade or so. Does wonders for the drainage. Land here is pure marl clay. Used to make clay pipes and bricks near by. Only good thing is we got no stones

Timmaay · 21-08-2013 8:43pm

Ok I've a question here, not on drainage, but on land improvement as such, I'm going to hire in a 9ton digger for a week or so soon to repair afew drains and other bits and bobs, I have afew gaps that are still very badly poached, and afew tractor ruts going through fields, all of which are of course rock hard at the minute. While I have the digger should I use it to level them out now, or wait for some rain, and the ground to be softer then just use a roller/grass harrow etc? I did try to roll some some of rough areas back in the spring, it was hard to get a proper window though, either the ground would be too wet and slippy (doing more damage then I was repairing), or the ground had gone too hard.

Oh and the other thing, we have 1/2 an acre of rushes, that I think I can finally remove, once I sort out one of the drains leading from it, should I just be spraying them and let them rot away themselves, or scrap them all out now into a heap while I have the digger?

agriman27 · 21-08-2013 8:51pm

I would get the digger to level the few ruts, you could just throw a bit of seed around wont be long growin if it gets a while without stock.

caseman · 21-08-2013 8:59pm

bob charles wrote: »

I see some super work being done at the moment in all land types. Might just be a good idea to pool all advice, questions and pics in the one thread so its an easy to use resource. What you think?

Im doing some drainage which is all new to me but the guys doing it who know the land type much better than me (they farm beside it, I farm 25 miles away) are adamant to just fill the shores with 4-6 stone to the top. Im undecided but its the type of ground that wont all mix together with the soil/subsoil so I will leave them at it. Right or wrong?

Any drains put in here now are filled to the top. Alot less chance of them getting cloged up with silt.

Corkfarmer · 21-08-2013 9:45pm

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years. Its a four acre field that had been overtaken with rushes.

We dug three deep drains in the wettest parts of the field, We covered the pipe with about two feet of drainage stone and we filled to the top with pencil we dug out from the field beside it.
10oZ3DNVj1i0lAarwR8twuobDKr3D2e2LPy-mxNkAGc2PtB4_JAqTY6jZbZlK-UgxaQJd-0lb4Tdqu8C4C9wZc.jpg

10oZ3DNVj1i0lAarwR8twuobDKr3D2e2LPy-mxNkAGc2PtB4_JAqTY6jZbZlK-UgxaQJd-0lb4Tdqu8C4C9wZc.jpg

The finished product is some difference the seeds are in since last Tuesday week and they're up already.

Conor556 · 21-08-2013 10:33pm

Corkfarmer wrote: »

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years.

We dug three deep drains through where the field was wettest. We covered the pipe with about two feet of sandstone and filled to the top with pencil we dug out from nearby.

The finished product is some difference the seeds are in since last Tuesday week and they're up already.

Cant see the pics!

Juniorhurler · 21-08-2013 10:47pm

F.D wrote: »

Funny the best people can come up with is trees when it comes to land improvments, good thing there no chance of a famine again
Old fellas around me keep saying theres no such thing as bad land just bad drainage,

A man around here who started with just his two hands and died owning 600 acres always said, there is no such thing as bad land only bad men.

Good loser · 21-08-2013 11:10pm

agriman27 wrote: »

I would get the digger to level the few ruts, you could just throw a bit of seed around wont be long growin if it gets a while without stock.

I agree. Get him to use a bucket with long teeth - he can use it like a rake.

Teagasc on draining found 10 - 15 mm stone the best. I now use 20 mm to 35 mm over 80 mm coil pipe about 15'' over pipe and then lay Terram (12" to 13" wide) before immediate backfill. The digger transfers the stone from a dumper into the drain.

Farmer · 21-08-2013 11:34pm

Good loser wrote: »

...Teagasc on draining found 10 - 15 mm stone the best......

I'd have thought so too - I'd reckon it's harder for the silt to get in through it and clog it up, as opposed to the larger gaps left between bigger stone.
However, small stone seems to be hard to buy nowadays with everybody selling the notion that (cheaper) larger stone is better. It seemed to start in the tiger years when the quarries couldn't turn out small chips fast enough for all the roadworks, tarmac etc that was going down. I know that years ago, when I'd ring the quarry for drainage chips, they's ask "half inch or three quarter?"

I suppose it's down to 'bang for buck'- is a wider drain with cheaper larger stone better than the 10-15 mm chip quoted ?

Corkfarmer · 21-08-2013 11:42pm

Conor556 wrote:

Cant see the pics!

Fixed now

Farmer Pudsey · 22-08-2013 2:01am

The trick with draining is to seal the top from soil but to allow water through. In the past along the top of drains they put straw to prevent the soil from going down into stone.

This formed a barrier that allowed water through but not soil. If you want to put in a percolation area for a septic tank they used to recommend ( not sure if they still do) that you use builders paper( not sure what this is) or straw on top of stone. If you use one of the landscaping barriers films you could keep the stone down 6-8''. This would allow you to disc or lightly plough.

I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.

Farmer Pudsey · 22-08-2013 2:05am

Corkfarmer wrote: »

Did a bit of reclaiming over the summer, the field looks a lot worse than it was in fairness. Had to gone to wreck from neglect over the past few years. Its a four acre field that had been overtaken with rushes. We dug three deep drains in the wettest parts of the field, We covered the pipe with about two feet of drainage stone and we filled to the top with pencil we dug out from the field beside it.

The test will be in 2-3 years time.

bob charles · 22-08-2013 9:25am

how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

Figerty · 22-08-2013 9:45am

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The trick with draining is to seal the top from soil but to allow water through. In the past along the top of drains they put straw to prevent the soil from going down into stone.

This formed a barrier that allowed water through but not soil. If you want to put in a percolation area for a septic tank they used to recommend ( not sure if they still do) that you use builders paper( not sure what this is) or straw on top of stone. If you use one of the landscaping barriers films you could keep the stone down 6-8''. This would allow you to disc or lightly plough.

I also was advised that the cheapest way to drain was to use 3-4'' limestone no drainage pipe cover with straw and soil and that it would last 20-30 years. It seems that the dust of the limestone will block a lot of the pores in the drainage pipe. You can use drainage pipe on the last 10 feet or waving pipe. Again the trick is to keep it down 6-8''.

Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.

I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.

I also had a long chat with a playing field construction expert. He said that the 10-15 mm pea gravel is best as the pores between the pea gravel is smaller than the slits in the pipe which means it shouldn't get clogged. Also the organic material that moves through the ground water wont enter the pipe as it is too large to enter the pores between the stones.

I did maybe a thousand metres of draining in the last few year through all the wet spots,, now what was the dry spots are the wet spots.

Figerty · 22-08-2013 11:49am

bob charles wrote: »

how about dig your drain, place terram into the drain so its folded in the bottom of the drain and comes up along the side. put in your chips and fold terram back over on top.

That works, concern is the filter may block over time. Depends on the soil type.

Did a bit of this also as an experiment and I will be looking at it an few years to see how its working. It could be a winner also.

bob charles · 22-08-2013 12:16pm

Figerty wrote: »

That works, concern is the filter may block over time. Depends on the soil type.

Did a bit of this also as an experiment and I will be looking at it an few years to see how its working. It could be a winner also.

the terram blocking would be my concern. So as I now im putting large stone into about 2ft wide shores and putting a sprinkle of small stone on top and leaving completely open, what grass decides to grow over it can but I wont put soil over it per se.

Farmer Pudsey · 22-08-2013 12:30pm

Figerty wrote: »

Run a mile from Limestone if you are in ground with Iron water. Limestone will react leaving you with a jelly blocking the pipes and wasting your money. Sandstone gravel doesn't react.

I fill with stones to the top; 20mm pea gravel even though more expensive. I won't ever be ploughing this ground so the drains stay intact. I used 30mm stone 10 years ago and that is blocked now. the drain with 20mm are working fine.

I also had a long chat with a playing field construction expert. He said that the 10-15 mm pea gravel is best as the pores between the pea gravel is smaller than the slits in the pipe which means it shouldn't get clogged. Also the organic material that moves through the ground water wont enter the pipe as it is too large to enter the pores between the stones.

I did maybe a thousand metres of draining in the last few year through all the wet spots,, now what was the dry spots are the wet spots.

If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore. It is not a bell and whistle rather a low cost solution that will maybe last 20-30 years. The trick it seems is to seal the top so that loose earth or gravel cannot filter down through the stone. Cost is a huge issue with drainage if you can use a medium term solution that will be low cost it may allow someone to drain a large area and increase productivity very fast. There are area's of rushy sloped land that this might be suitable for that could double or treble farm production at a low cost cutting cost back by 50% or more.

You see if draining lowlying land where you have a good percentage of productive land drainage costs is not a real issue however on a lot of west of Ireland most of the farm may require drainage. So low cost solutions may offer a medium term solution.

A bells and whistle type solution may not be viable even though it has twice or three times the lifespan while a solution like was suggested to me may actually make long term sence on some of these farms. Now I must state I have not seen it done but was told about it by another farmer.

If you look at it even spraying rushes at 10-15 euro/acre/year may make economic sence however how many do it. Right fertility will also help with P&K being very important. Using Granlime as opposed to ground lime due to access problems on heavy land may also increase productivity. It is doing something that there is an short to medium economic return that generates profit and wealth.

bob charles · 22-08-2013 12:34pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If you look at my post I said that it was not reccomended to use any drainage pipe except at the end to let water exit to the shore.

Whats the thinking of using the pipe at the exit to the shore. Im putting in one 200m drain so how far back along it should I got with a pipe. Great natural fall in the drain to begin with

4odh4n · 22-08-2013 12:44pm

does anybody use the 110mm sewer pipe for drainage works?? we have started using it for replacing drainage over the last two years or so. bit of work involved in that it has to be cut/slotted, we usually run down it with a consaw or ginder with grinding disk and cut slots every 4-5inches or so as end up with something like this...

\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / / /

the cuts would be about 2/3 of the pipe with the remaining 1/3 left as a smooth bottom.

out main problem is the 80mm perforated pipe keeps silting, they will got fine for 6-8years from new but after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running, we use up to 20mm stone and this seems to work well, infact when we open older drains we find the water will be running through the stone as it cant get into the pipe as all the small holes have silted up, again !

trying this now hoping the larger slots in the sewer pipe will not be as inclined to silt and may only require jetting to clear out any material that gathers on the bottom of the pipe, although pipes put in over two years ago now are as clean as the day they went in.

hugo29 · 22-08-2013 12:46pm

4odh4n wrote: »

does anybody use the 110mm sewer pipe for drainage works?? we have started using it for replacing drainage over the last two years or so. bit of work involved in that it has to be cut/slotted, we usually run down it with a consaw or ginder with grinding disk and cut slots every 4-5inches or so as end up with something like this...
\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \
/ / / / / / / / /
the cuts would be about 2/3 of the pipe with the remaining 1/3 left as a smooth bottom.

out main problem is the 80mm perforated pipe keeps silting, they will got fine for 6-8years from new but after that you would be jetting every other year nearly to keep them running, we use up to 20mm stone and this seems to work well, infact when we open older drains we find the water will be running through the stone as it cant get into the pipe as all the small holes have silted up, again !

trying this now hoping the larger slots in the sewer pipe will not be as inclined to silt and may only require jetting to clear out any material that gathers on the bottom of the pipe, although pipes put in over two years ago now are as clean as the day they went in.

you can buy the pipe slotted, its whats used in percolation trenches but its expensive, most just do as you said and slot it themselves

Farmer Pudsey · 22-08-2013 12:50pm

bob charles wrote: »

Whats the thinking of using the pipe at the exit to the shore. Im putting in one 200m drain so how far back along it should I got with a pipe. Great natural fall in the drain to begin with

It allows you to seal end od stone so that it will not fall into shore especially an issue with sloped groundso 8-10 feet of pipe allows the water to flow out into shore. It also seem that it may be a good idea to turn the end in the stone in a ''U'' so that water will seep infrom end of ''U'' rather than flow down into it less likly that debri will block end of pipe in stone.

A lot of it seems to be common sence

Land Improvements thread

Comments