Virgin Trains lose Holyhead service

Lapin · 15-08-2012 12:23pm #1

As a frequent(ish) user of the Holyhead - London service over the years, I can't say I'll miss Virgin.

Hardly a trip went by without a delay of some kind, and very seldom did I arrive into Euston on time. (Curiously, the return leg often went without a hitch although there were a couple of nightmares.)

In fairness, many of the delays were the fault of Railtrack and its successor, Network Rail as works on the West Coast Main Line continue.

The franchise is to be taken over by the UK's largest rail operator FirstGroup who have promised to "offer substantial improvements in the quality and frequency of the service".

While this is welcome news, I wouldn't expect them to say anything different. I'll believe it when I see it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19264614

Article -

Virgin Trains loses West Coast Mainline franchise

Virgin had held the franchise since 1997

Virgin Rail has lost its bid to continue running the West Coast Mainline and will be replaced by the UK's largest rail operator, FirstGroup.

FirstGroup said it would "offer substantial improvements in the quality and frequency of services".

Sir Richard Branson said Virgin's loss of the franchise was "very disappointing news".

Unions and rail campaigners have argued jobs will be cut, fares will rise and catering services will be cut back.

FirstGroup already operates a number of rail routes including Great Western and ScotRail.

The company, under the name First West Coast Limited, will take over the franchise from 9 December and is due to to operate the service until 2026.
More seats
The West Coast Mainline route serves 31 million passengers travelling between London, the West Midlands, the North West, North Wales and the central belt of Scotland.

FirstGroup says it will introduce 11 new 125mph six-car electric trains on the Birmingham-to-Glasgow route and provide more direct services between destinations.

Additional Pendolino tilting trains currently being introduced by Virgin will deliver more than 28,000 seats a day.

LeftBlank · 15-08-2012 1:57pm

They are going to remove the catering car from the Pendolino's to put in more seats, leaving a trolley service as the only catering on them. Hardly a great start I would say.

devnull · 15-08-2012 2:05pm

Don't believe everything Bob Crow says, he's first priority is his members which he is very good at doing, however he is known to exaggerate many claims in order to try and win public support in the hope he can get the public on his side which in turn will help his members, nothing wrong with that from his members point of view, but he's far from being the passengers friend that he is trying to portray.

The First Presentation to shareholders on the win is here:
http://www.firstgroup.com/assets/pdfs/investors/presentations/InterCity_West_Coast_franchise_award_presentation_150812.pdf

LXFlyer · 15-08-2012 2:28pm

LeftBlank wrote: »

They are going to remove the catering car from the Pendolino's to put in more seats, leaving a trolley service as the only catering on them. Hardly a great start I would say.

The only person suggesting this so far is Bob Crow, head of the RMT union, who is far from a reliable source.

As it happens First actually operate probably the best of the onboard catering services available on Intercity services in Britain, on their First Great Western franchise.

Until we see all the detail, it's a bit early to be predicting doom and gloom.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 2:31pm

lxflyer wrote: »

The only person suggesting this so far is Bob Crow, head of the RMT union, who is far from a reliable source.

As it happens First actually operate probably the best of the onboard catering services available on Intercity services in Britain, on their First Great Western franchise.

Until we see all the detail, it's a bit early to be predicting doom and gloom.

Not really, the distances they cover don't really merit it. First is generally disliked. Old carriages, reduced carriages on many routes where standing is common - there is no cost to that for a monopoly company as you dont get a reduction - snarly staff, ridiculously opaque pricing.

LXFlyer · 15-08-2012 2:55pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Not really, the distances they cover don't really merit it. First is generally disliked. Old carriages, reduced carriages on many routes where standing is common - there is no cost to that for a monopoly company as you dont get a reduction - snarly staff, ridiculously opaque pricing.

Actually you're wrong.

The Pullman and Travelling Chef services offered to Wales and the South West are generally regarded as the best available nowadays.

The old carriages as you refer to them as are the Mark 3 HST sets which have all been refurbished.

Yes it's true FGW were castigated (and rightly so) for poor performance at the start of the current franchise, but some of that was down to the rolling stock decisions of the Department for Transport. They have managed to turn that around and it is at this stage generally viewed as one of the better operated franchises.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 3:02pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Actually you're wrong.

The Pullman and Travelling Chef services offered to Wales and the South West are generally regarded as the best available nowadays.

The old carriages as you refer to them as are the Mark 3 HST sets which have all been refurbished.

Yes it's true FGW were castigated (and rightly so) for poor performance at the start of the current franchise, but some of that was down to the rolling stock decisions of the Department for Transport. They have managed to turn that around and it is at this stage generally viewed as one of the better operated franchises.

My arse it is. People are spitting about this decision in the UK. First is hated in the South West. Trains are overpriced and over-crowded.

see the comments on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/15/virgin-trains-west-coast-mainline-firstgroup

devnull · 15-08-2012 3:15pm

A lot of the problems with rolling stock on the FGW area relate to the crazy rolling stock procurement in the United Kingdom, train operators cannot go out there an order trains off their own back even if they wanted to as the order has to be approved by the department for transport who have a history of forcing train companies to cut orders, train lengths in new stock they wish to purchase. If anything has any government funding it holds the situation up even more, for instance when FGW took the franchise in 2006 there was a procurement going on for Intercity Express trains backed by the government that were supposed to enter service in 2012/3 the order was only made in the last few weeks due to government burecuracy and the trains will not arrive until 2017 at the earliest. The Thameslink Programme has also been hit by years of delays.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express_Programme

There is nothing that train operators can do in the UK with overcrowding whilst procurement processes are as long, drawn out as they currently are, with the government authorities continually announcing one thing, only to either delay or abandon plans completely for something else which then also gets abandoned which does nobody any favours. However this suits the government agencies as the operators get it in the neck when there is overcrowding, despite the fact the system rather than the operators are to blame in the most part. There is no free rolling stock in the UK at the moment, it is all in use so when people moan about overcrowding it's not like they can get some more trains, there are none, the only answer is new trains to enhance services, which then allow others to cascade elsewhere, unfortunately that is not possible either if the DFT are continually putting obstacles in the way of new orders being placed and delivered quickly.

First aw now refurbishing some ex-buffet vehicles into seating accommodation, because that is the only diesel stock that is available at the present time that is not in use.,

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 3:18pm

the other thing they could do is get rid of first class, rarely full, given that people are generally standing on-peak for a lot of the route.

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 3:45pm

Despite what the likes of Bob Crow would like to claim that privatisation has involved trains becoming shorter and less often it has no basis on reality. Indeed what has actually happened is not that the trains have been cut, leading to overcrowding, rather that rail in the UK has had a huge passenger boom in the last 10-15 years which has led to trains getting busier because there are more passengers, not because there are less trains but then again that does not fit his agenda so instead he will try and mislead the public as his one aim is to try and get the system renationlised, for the benefit of his members, he has no regard for the traveling public but claims he does so and makes outrageous claims because he hopes that will drum up extra support to bring the lines into public ownership, if he has to mislead the public in order to do so he doesn't mind.

Example of passenger numbers:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GBR_rail_passenegers_by_year.gif

devnull · 15-08-2012 3:47pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

the other thing they could do is get rid of first class, rarely full, given that people are generally standing on-peak for a lot of the route.

There generally are business people on many routes who only travel First Class and would not travel if standard class if that was the only choice available to them due to the extras First Class offers etc.

AngryLips · 15-08-2012 3:53pm

Does the current rolling stock belong to Virgin? If so what will happen to it now that they've lost the franchise?

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 3:54pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

My arse it is. People are spitting about this decision in the UK. First is hated in the South West. Trains are overpriced and over-crowded.

see the comments on:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/aug/15/virgin-trains-west-coast-mainline-firstgroup

I used First Great Western and First Capital Connect for much of the last three years. FGW are notorious for overcrowding and working with old rolling stock and FCC have not covered themselves with glory on the old Thameslink franchise either.

I use the Holyhead train at least twice a year and am not holding my breath for any improvements.

Perhaps Irish Rail will have a customer for their old MkIIIs after regauging?

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 4:10pm

FGW are notorious for overcrowding and working with old rolling stock

All of which has been refurbished extensively and the HST's look brand new inside and the overcrowding is related to continued broken government promises, as well as what was mentioned by Devnull, the government also backtracked on an agreement for 48 new coaches for local services which were announced here: http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/Bristol-s-Great-Western-set-52-extra-carriages/story-11233805-detail/story.html

Only to then backtrack on their commitment and tearing up the agreement saying that there would be no new order in the short term and the 202 coach order is going to be shelved, and after electrification they will consider doing a possible electric train order or cascade trains from elsewhere, electrification is still a good few years away and diesel stock is no longer being ordered thanks to the tearing up of this agreement.

and FCC have not covered themselves with glory on the old Thameslink franchise either

True, although at the same time the franchise was left in an awful state when they got it because of years of neglect and severe overcrowding when WAGN choose not to take up the option of extra trains when they were available. FCC have added 44 extra trains since they took over the franchise but there are still problems with overcrowding but there are no more trains left that are suitable for the line anymore.

There is supposed to be a Thameslink stock order being made by the government in conjunction with FCC which will result in 110 new trains being ordered, which will allow some of the existing electric fleet being freed up to operate elsewhere and reduce overcrowding by strengthening existing services. The tender process was started in 2008, and has been blighted once again by many delays and there is still no order placed. The contract for order was originally planned to be signed in Summer 2009, with the vehicles in service by February 2012, and a full service by 2015

Perhaps Irish Rail will have a customer for their old MkIIIs after regauging?

They'd need a hell of a lot of work to be something like this, besides, MK3's should be on their way out on the line right now, but thanks to government dithering they still will have to live on until at least 2017.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWmqgPltqAY

LXFlyer · 15-08-2012 4:13pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Does the current rolling stock belong to Virgin? If so what will happen to it now that they've lost the franchise?

With the exception of a small number of trains, none of the rolling stock belongs to the train operating companies.

devnull · 15-08-2012 4:14pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Does the current rolling stock belong to Virgin? If so what will happen to it now that they've lost the franchise?

No, it will transfer to the new operating company as nearly all of the stock int eh UK is owned by ROSCO's who are train leasing companies who also sometimes part finance deals for new stock.

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 4:17pm

The leasing companies are one of the worst aspects of the UK system, they have much higher profit margins than the train operating companies, which is often overlooked.

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 4:21pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

The leasing companies are one of the worst aspects of the UK system, they have much higher profit margins than the train operating companies, which is often overlooked.

The whole GB set up is a farce anyway and has lead to the most eyewatering fares that I ever came across.

Pity neither GB nor the Republic looked at Translink as a model. It works.

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 4:23pm

The UK system certainly is not perfect but neither is Translink.

The anytime fares are expensive in the UK alwright, but if you book in advance you can get vastly cheaper fares than you can here, for example London to Scotland for £18 for instance if booked far enough in advance. Also frequency is generally higher and trains longer in the UK and much bigger geographical coverage but that is more related to population density than anything I would say so you can't really compare the two countries fully as they're totally different kettles of fish.

The Idyll Race · 15-08-2012 4:39pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

The UK system certainly is not perfect but neither is Translink.

The anytime fares are expensive in the UK alwright, but if you book in advance you can get vastly cheaper fares than you can here, for example London to Scotland for £18 for instance if booked far enough in advance. Also frequency is generally higher and trains longer in the UK and much bigger geographical coverage but that is more related to population density than anything I would say so you can't really compare the two countries fully as they're totally different kettles of fish.

I have done that. In my latter days in Bath I used South West Trains more often to go to London but it was a PITA to ensure the conditions were met.

SNCF works, but it is heretical these days in the Anglosphere to think that State provision of transport can be a good thing. The Republic's problem is the gigantic outdoor relief scam that is CIE.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 4:45pm

I also travelled Bath-London, on and off, two times a week and back for a lot of the last few years and while you are generally not standing from Bath - but it is never ever easy to get a seat - from then on you can be standing. With cancelled trains the next train has twice as many people. I have, however, stood and paid more than a RyanAir flight to stand for 1 1/2 -2 hours.

I understand that Irish people are anti-Irish rail, and pro-privitisation, but living in England will remove that urge, let me tell you. In any case a private monopoly is a monopoly, not a capitalist enterprise competing for customers, the customers are locked in..

vard · 15-08-2012 4:46pm

First thing they should do is introduce an early morning train to meet ferry passengers arriving in Hollyhead looking to travel to London.

I frequently take the rail + sail to London. It ends up taking roughly 13 hours each way - the bus takes the same length of time.

When you arrive in Hollyhead however you end up having to wait along with everyone else from 1AM or so until the first train departs at about 5.30; Hollyhead couldn't be a more disgusting, depressing and dire place to be forced to wait around.

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 4:51pm

SNCF may be great between the big cities etc in France but the frequency on a lot of the smaller and regional lines is well below that of the same kind of lines and areas in the UK so for many people who have very few train services a day I doubt they would agree it is better.

For instance the size of the rail network in France is approx 30,000km with the UK network being approx 16,000km.. Despite the fact that France has a far bigger network, it's trains are far less frequent on many lines, in fact the UK network that is just over 50% of the size of the French network has 20% more frequent services. The UK network is also carrying more people, despite the fact that the network is half the size of the French network.

According to Wikipedia despite the fact the UK network is the 18th biggest in the world, it is the fifth busiest.

bk · 15-08-2012 4:54pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I understand that Irish people are anti-Irish rail, and pro-privitisation, but living in England will remove that urge, let me tell you. In any case a private monopoly is a monopoly, not a capitalist enterprise competing for customers, the customers are locked in..

There are many different ways to do privatisation, the English rail model is just one model and it obviously doesn't work.

On the other hand the model used for Luas seems to work very well, as does the London Bus model.

FYI The Luas model is operated by a private company, Veoila, under license from the Natinoal Transport Agency (basically the Irish Government).

London Bus is operated by a variety of private bus companies under license of Transport For London.

No one argues that some public transport needs to be subsidised. However some parts of CIE are just ridiculously overstaffed and inefficient.

devnull · 15-08-2012 4:57pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I also travelled Bath-London, on and off, two times a week and back for a lot of the last few years and while you are generally not standing from Bath - but it is never ever easy to get a seat - from then on you can be standing. With cancelled trains the next train has twice as many people. I have, however, stood and paid more than a RyanAir flight to stand for 1 1/2 -2 hours.

If you book in advance for a specific train you will get dirt cheap fares and a seat reservation included in the price. This is the case for all tickets where you specify the train that you are taking on an advance fare.

If you take a flexible ticket you can still make a seat reservation on the service of your choice up to two hours before departure, I believe it costs a pound or something like that but I have not done it for a while as I normally book advance tickets.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 5:02pm

The cost of Bristol-London return first class is 375€. The cost on-peak normal is 228.6€. Todays exchange rate.

These are prices which are paid everyday by businesses and people on those trains. Its not a crazy price paid by the very few - well not the normal fare. And you could well stand for that. Although it is unlikely from Bristol, it can happen.

I wonder what the gross profit is per journey. The trains have a driver, a train manager and a guy selling food - which is possibly self financing. Thats 2 hours each labour cost. They do need cleaners either end. That and fuel expense, against which they have full carriages all the way down. 8 Carriages. About 60 seats per carriage, people standing at no discount. Rush hour trains must be minting it.

SandyfordGuy · 15-08-2012 5:04pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I also travelled Bath-London, on and off, two times a week and back for a lot of the last few years and while you are generally not standing from Bath - but it is never ever easy to get a seat - from then on you can be standing.

Indeed, and can you imagine the train companies frustration that this is the case because of the fact the government keeps breaking rolling stock promises yet the greater public just blame the train operator for something that they have no control of. The system in the UK needs overhauls in several areas, but the average member just blames 'greedy private sector fatcats' when the problem is far deeper and is related to government incompetence, rolling stock provisions and train leasing companies who are making huge margins. The operators have margins of around 3% so they are not making the huge sums that people seem to think. The train leasing companies are the ones creaming the profits in my view.

With cancelled trains the next train has twice as many people

But that is not a problem that is related to the UK though is it, it happens everywhere. At least the frequency of the UK train system means it won't be a too long a wait.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 5:07pm

devnull wrote: »

If you book in advance for a specific train you will get dirt cheap fares and a seat reservation included in the price. This is the case for all tickets where you specify the train that you are taking on an advance fare.

If you take a flexible ticket you can still make a seat reservation on the service of your choice up to two hours before departure, I believe it costs a pound or something like that but I have not done it for a while as I normally book advance tickets.

You are talking ****e, mate. There is no reduction in booking in advance, not for weekday travel, and certainly not for rush hour travel. You get the same prices as at the ATM, you just get a reserved seat, but you also have to take that particular train, and be on that seat, or you pay the full price of £89.

Which is often too restrictive, particularly coming back.

Duggys Housemate · 15-08-2012 5:09pm

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Indeed, and can you imagine the train companies frustration that this is the case because of the fact the government keeps breaking rolling stock promises yet the greater public just blame the train operator for something that they have no control of. The system in the UK needs overhauls in several areas, but the average member just blames 'greedy private sector fatcats' when the problem is far deeper and is related to government incompetence, rolling stock provisions and train leasing companies who are making huge margins. The operators have margins of around 3% so they are not making the huge sums that people seem to think. The train leasing companies are the ones creaming the profits in my view.

Ok, although I cant possibly see how any train from Bristol-London could lose money.

But that is not a problem that is related to the UK though is it, it happens everywhere. At least the frequency of the UK train system means it won't be a too long a wait.

True, but it serious when you are paying big money, and you have to stand for up to 2 hours..

devnull · 15-08-2012 5:18pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The cost of Bristol-London return first class is 375€. The cost on-peak normal is 228.6€. Todays exchange rate.

And looking in 2-3 of weeks for advance tickets the off-peak singles in standard class start from €10 and the peak trains from £15. Even next week off-peak trains start from 12.50 and on-peak are either 15/18 so there are ways to save money. Remember also that regular users will also have season tickets which whilst are not as cheap as the advance bookings, have great savings on the top rates. First class fares start from 22.00 if booked in advance and have free food and drink, newspapers, tables, charging points leather seats among other things.

These are prices which are paid everyday by businesses and people on those trains. Its not a crazy price paid by the very few - well not the normal fare. And you could well stand for that. Although it is unlikely from Bristol, it can happen.

Not really, most business people have season tickets on a monthly or a yearly basis in the most part and most leisure travelers will travel off-peak, super off-peak, or will use advance tickets at dirt cheap prices, I heard that on the west coast route today that only 20% of people use the anytime flexible tickets, the vast majority of business users are on season tickets,leisure users on advance tickets or super off-peak or off-peak.

I wonder what the gross profit is per journey. The trains have a driver, a train manager and a guy selling food - which is possibly self financing. Thats 2 hours each labour cost. They do need cleaners either end. That and fuel expense, against which they have full carriages all the way down. 8 Carriages. About 60 seats per carriage, people standing at no discount. Rush hour trains must be minting it.

The thing is people always moan, there are people moaning now that FGW have took too many tables out of standard class on the High Speed trains, yet then the same people moan why the trains are overcrowded, the problem is that more tables = less seats so there has to be a sacrifice somewhere. The average FGW high speed train journey is much more than two hours, you also forgot to add in the customer host in First class, the payments to the ROSCO's who are the ones with the high margins, the huge premiums being paid to the government. The average profit margin in the industry is about 3p in the pound so I'd hardly call it creaming it, as even if the margins go above this margin, the excess goes back to the government.

devnull · 15-08-2012 5:25pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

You are talking ****e, mate. There is no reduction in booking in advance, not for weekday travel, and certainly not for rush hour travel. You get the same prices as at the ATM, you just get a reserved seat, but you also have to take that particular train, and be on that seat, or you pay the full price of £89.

Sorry, you're incorrect, see below from a fortnights time:

&

Virgin Trains lose Holyhead service

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