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US "Federal" Reserve used to prop up failed Irish Banks

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    #32
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    yekahs wrote: »
    That the Federal Reserve is a private institution controlled by an elite in order to force America into an unpayable debt is a long established CT and belongs here, not in politics.
    1. That the Federal Reserve is a private institution
    2. controlled by an elite
    3. to force America into an unpayable debt
    4. established CT
    5. belongs here, not in politics

    We have five statements here, not one. Care to articulate which ones are correct?


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    #33
    Yitzhak Rabin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    squod wrote: »
    1. That the Federal Reserve is a private institution
    2. controlled by an elite
    3. to force America into an unpayable debt
    4. established CT
    5. belongs here, not in politics

    We have five statements here, not one. Care to articulate which ones are correct?

    I have no idea what the truth of the first three statements are. The last two are correct.

    The mods of politics have indicated that they do not want the thread. I am quite content to allow discussion of it to continue here. However if people continue not to discuss it'll be locked. If you have any further queries please PM me and do not continue to question mod decisions on thread.


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    #34
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    yekahs wrote: »
    I have no idea what the truth of the first three statements are. The last two are correct.

    The mods of politics have indicated that they do not want the thread. I am quite content to allow discussion of it to continue here. However if people continue not to discuss it'll be locked. If you have any further queries please PM me and do not continue to question mod decisions on thread.

    That's a fair answer.


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    #35
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    Anonymous1987, what "federal" reserve bank was the judge referring to in the court case: lewis vs united states?

    How many "federal" reserve banks are you arguing exist?

    I'm quite satisfied based on the evidence available that Federal Reserve are a private banking cartel posing as a federal institution for the sole purpose of controlling the supply of US dollars and maximising profits for all the banks who are members of the board.

    You can't argue it doesn't control the money supply when we've established it does. You've even stated the only way the US government can spend money is through borrowing from the Federal Reserve...

    You argue this system is to prevent government causing hyperinflation with excessive money creation, but the other side of the coin is that banks can control governments and entire nations which we could argue they do quite effectively with the help of World Bank and IMF "World" and "International" (both misnomers)

    If you look at QE2 which the FED claim is to push the rate of US government bonds down so that banks might look elsewhere to invest, where are they looking?

    They won't lend into the US economy because they know its banjaxed so where does the money go? not where its supposed to, not where Bernanke claims it will go.

    as you probably know, it's going into equities and commodities...so WTF are US tax payers on the hook for? so that banks who get that money from the FED can enrich themselves even more, investing overseas?

    paying themselves huge bonuses while people starve on the street?

    At some point in the future, american people are going to snap... this trickle down economic policy isn't working and its only a matter of time.

    You say that the fed are careful not to create too much money incase of hyperinflation..but what other routes are they prepared to take? can they honestly raise interest rates like Volcker did in the 80's? it's not possible with the total amount of debt incurred.

    There's no question of austerity ahead for americans.
    Foreign countries are no longer interested in buying dollars because you can't buy any american assets with those dollars, just IOU's that will never be paid.

    Their biggest creditor was china, and there you see the US sending over warships to N.Korea, telling china they're "currency manipulators" placing blame for their economic problems on the doorstep of china who has been buying up their bonds for all their military conquests in the world.

    So where are going? just keep printing money out of thin air and hope the problem of accumulated debt disappears?

    Hyperinflation is exactly what the US is going to experience, because there's absolutely no way out of this debt they're creating...no way.

    The sooner the better, china and russia swapping currencys was great news.


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    #36
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    Anonymous1987, what "federal" reserve bank was the judge referring to in the court case: lewis vs united states?
    If you bothered to read the first two lines of the link I supplied you would see it is reference to San Francisco regional Federal Reserve Bank which is private as opposed to the Federal Reserve board which controls the money supply and is public.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    How many "federal" reserve banks are you arguing exist?
    12 private regional federal reserve banks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve_system#Federal_Reserve_Banks And of course the Federal Reserve Board which is normally what someone means when they refer to the Fed is separate to these and is a public institution.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    You can't argue it doesn't control the money supply when we've established it does.
    Yes the Federal Reserve bank (the board that is) does control the money supply.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    You've even stated the only way the US government can spend money is through borrowing from the Federal Reserve...
    No I didn't the US gov can tax or borrow from public. Borrowings of course have to be repaid by taxes.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    You argue this system is to prevent government causing hyperinflation with excessive money creation, but the other side of the coin is that banks can control governments and entire nations which we could argue they do quite effectively with the help of World Bank and IMF "World" and "International" (both misnomers)
    Again the Fed which is public controls money supply, not the banks.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    If you look at QE2 which the FED claim is to push the rate of US government bonds down so that banks might look elsewhere to invest, where are they looking?

    They won't lend into the US economy because they know its banjaxed so where does the money go? not where its supposed to, not where Bernanke claims it will go.

    as you probably know, it's going into equities and commodities...so WTF are US tax payers on the hook for? so that banks who get that money from the FED can enrich themselves even more, investing overseas?

    paying themselves huge bonuses while people starve on the street?
    Yes some of the liquidity is going into commodities and equities but the fact that money is going into equities is a good thing. Equity is another way for a firm to raise capital for investing and producing.

    robbyvibes wrote: »
    At some point in the future, american people are going to snap... this trickle down economic policy isn't working and its only a matter of time.

    You say that the fed are careful not to create too much money incase of hyperinflation..but what other routes are they prepared to take? can they honestly raise interest rates like Volcker did in the 80's? it's not possible with the total amount of debt incurred.
    The Fed has also devised a new monetary tool, the term deposit facility:
    The Term Deposit Facility is a program through which the Federal Reserve Banks will offer interest-bearing term deposits to eligible institutions. By removing "excess deposits" from participating banks, the overall level of reserves available for lending is reduced, which should result in increased market interest rates, acting as a brake on economic activity and inflation.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_Backed_Commercial_Paper_Money_Market_Mutual_Fund_Liquidity_Facility#Term_deposit_facility
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    There's no question of austerity ahead for americans.
    Foreign countries are no longer interested in buying dollars because you can't buy any american assets with those dollars, just IOU's that will never be paid.
    If the markets no longer had faith in the dollar, it would depreciate relative to other currencies, at present this has not happened to any great degree.
    robbyvibes wrote: »
    Their biggest creditor was china, and there you see the US sending over warships to N.Korea, telling china they're "currency manipulators" placing blame for their economic problems on the doorstep of china who has been buying up their bonds for all their military conquests in the world.

    So where are going? just keep printing money out of thin air and hope the problem of accumulated debt disappears?

    Hyperinflation is exactly what the US is going to experience, because there's absolutely no way out of this debt they're creating...no way.

    The sooner the better, china and russia swapping currencys was great news.
    While the level of US debt is worrying it's not like its unprecedented, here is a historical graph showing debt as a percentage to GDP. At present we are approaching the 100% mark but this is still below the levels of the 50's.
    US_Federal_Debt.png


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    #37
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    robbyvibes wrote: »
    I'm quite satisfied based on the evidence available that Federal Reserve are a private banking cartel posing as a federal institution for the sole purpose of controlling the supply of US dollars and maximising profits for all the banks who are members of the board.

    One problem with this ct is that the US Government controls the FED and also receives the profit made by it.


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    #38
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Our friend anon remains incapable of demonstrating how the Federal Reserve is a public institution, other than by simply saying so and hoping he won't be questioned on it.

    Sadly, I feel obliged to do exactly that. For the second time of asking, Anon, please demonstrate for us how you believe the Federal Reserve to be a publicly owned institution when the law clearly states that it is not, and merely has some public appointees?


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    #39
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    I already covered it here. The key points are:
    The Federal Reserve System is not "owned" by anyone and is not a private, profit-making institution. Instead, it is an independent entity within the government, having both public purposes and private aspects.

    The twelve regional Federal Reserve Banks, which were established by Congress as the operating arms of the nation's central banking system, are organized much like private corporations--possibly leading to some confusion about "ownership." For example, the Reserve Banks issue shares of stock to member banks. However, owning Reserve Bank stock is quite different from owning stock in a private company. The Reserve Banks are not operated for profit, and ownership of a certain amount of stock is, by law, a condition of membership in the System. The stock may not be sold, traded, or pledged as security for a loan; dividends are, by law, 6 percent per year.

    http://www.federalreserve.gov/genera...q/faqfrs.htm#5

    Take it or leave it because I'm only repeating myself here. If you can't or do not want to understand this that's you prerogative. The only piece of evidence in favour of your conspiracy theory given here was shown to refer to the San Francisco Federal Reserve Bank however throughout this thread I have shown the SF Fed does not manage the money supply however the Fed Board manages the money supply which is public accountable to congress, not to mention regularly audited.


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    #40
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Yes, you're repeatedly incorrect. It is a private bank made up of private shareholders with a federal right to print reserve notes overseen by a board of government appointees.

    That makes it a private company with a public contract which is overseen by public officials appointed to the private company.


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    #41
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Yes, you're repeatedly incorrect. It is a private bank made up of private shareholders with a federal right to print reserve notes overseen by a board of government appointees.

    That makes it a private company with a public contract which is overseen by public officials appointed to the private company.
    The public officials are in control, they make all the decisions not the private banks.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Open_Market_Committee


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    #42
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    That's debatable of course. They are nominally in control, for sure. They also answer to their shareholders.

    But that's not the question I asked. You stated the Fed was a publicly owned entity. By law it is not. It is a private company with some public appointees. Do you now accept that you were wrong to suggest otherwise?


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    #43
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    That's debatable of course. They are nominally in control, for sure. They also answer to their shareholders.

    But that's not the question I asked. You stated the Fed was a publicly owned entity. By law it is not. It is a private company with some public appointees. Do you now accept that you were wrong to suggest otherwise?

    It couldn't be clearer
    Legal status of regional Federal Reserve Banks

    The Federal Reserve Banks have an intermediate legal status, with some features of private corporations and some features of public federal agencies. The United States has an interest in the Federal Reserve Banks as tax-exempt federally-created instrumentalities whose profits belong to the federal government, but this interest is not proprietary.[72] Each member bank (commercial banks in the Federal Reserve district) owns a nonnegotiable share of stock in its regional Federal Reserve Bank. However, holding Federal Reserve Bank stock is unlike owning stock in a publicly traded company. The charter of each Federal Reserve Bank is established by law and cannot be altered by the member banks. Federal Reserve Bank stock cannot be sold or traded, and member banks do not control the Federal Reserve Bank as a result of owning this stock. They do, however, elect six of the nine members of the Federal Reserve Banks' boards of directors.[37] In Lewis v. United States,[73] the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that: "The Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA [the Federal Tort Claims Act], but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." The opinion went on to say, however, that: "The Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes." Another relevant decision is Scott v. Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City,[72] in which the distinction is made between Federal Reserve Banks, which are federally-created instrumentalities, and the Board of Governors, which is a federal agency.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_reserve#Legal_status_of_regional_Federal_Reserve_Banks


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    #44
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Yes it is perfectly clear, and you bolded the wrong bit. Allow me:
    The Federal Reserve Banks have an intermediate legal status, with some features of private corporations and some features of public federal agencies. The United States has an interest in the Federal Reserve Banks as tax-exempt federally-created instrumentalities whose profits belong to the federal government, but this interest is not proprietary.[72] Each member bank (commercial banks in the Federal Reserve district) owns a nonnegotiable share of stock in its regional Federal Reserve Bank.
    However, holding Federal Reserve Bank stock is unlike owning stock in a publicly traded company. The charter of each Federal Reserve Bank is established by law and cannot be altered by the member banks. Federal Reserve Bank stock cannot be sold or traded, and member banks do not control the Federal Reserve Bank as a result of owning this stock. They do, however, elect six of the nine members of the Federal Reserve Banks' boards of directors.[37] In Lewis v. United States,[73] the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that: "The Reserve Banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the FTCA [the Federal Tort Claims Act], but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations." The opinion went on to say, however, that: "The Reserve Banks have properly been held to be federal instrumentalities for some purposes." Another relevant decision is Scott v. Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City,[72] in which the distinction is made between Federal Reserve Banks, which are federally-created instrumentalities, and the Board of Governors, which is a federal agency.


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    #45
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    Yes it is perfectly clear, and you bolded the wrong bit. Allow me:

    The key point you are missing is that the Federal Reserve Board which controls the money supply is appointed by the President and is accountable to congress.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System#Board_of_Governors

    The Federal Reserve Banks on the other hand are privately owned. Do not confuse the Federal Reserve Bank's board of directors with the Federal Reserve Board, they are separate.


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    #46
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Anonymous1987 wrote: »
    The key point you are missing is that the Federal Reserve Board which holds all the control over the money supply is appointed by the President and is accountable to congress.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System#Board_of_Governors

    The Federal Reserve Banks on the other hand are privately owned. Do not confuse the Federal Reserve Bank's board of directors with the Federal Reserve Board, they are separate.

    This really isn't a difficult question - the answer is in the text you yourself quoted - is the Federal Reserve a public or privately owned entity?
    The answer is a privately owned one.


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    #47
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    This really isn't a difficult question - the answer is in the text you yourself quoted - is the Federal Reserve a public or privately owned entity?
    The answer is a privately owned one.

    The Federal Reserve Board, the one which controls the money supply is publicly owned. Also I edited my previous post as on double checking, the Federal Reserve Board does not hold "all" the control of the money supply it does consist of a majority of the members (7 out of 12) of the Federal Open Market Committee who decide monetary policy. Make what you want of it, the government is still in control and the various audits and reporting to congress ensures accountability.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structure_of_the_Federal_Reserve_System


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    #48
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    You're still wriggling.
    Answer the question: who owns the Fed?


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    #49
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    You're still wriggling.
    Answer the question: who owns the Fed?
    The US government owns the Fed. See the first point here, I've demonstrated that Federal Reserve Board (US owned) is the dominant force behind monetary policy.


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    #50
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Anonymous1987 wrote: »
    The US government owns the Fed.

    No, it does not. The banks own the Fed, as your own links, and the relevant legislation, make crystal clear.


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    #51
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Anonymous1987 wrote: »
    The US government owns the Fed. See the first point here, I've demonstrated that Federal Reserve Board (US owned) is the dominant force behind monetary policy.

    I think I'll just edit the page and make Donald Duck the CEO.


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    #52
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    squod wrote: »
    I think I'll just edit the page and make Donald Duck the CEO.

    He'd probably do a better job, actually. His uncle seems to know more about wealth creation than the entire Fed does.


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    #53
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    can someone plz point out to me where the huge banking conspiracy is when it's actually the us government that gets the profits from the fed?


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    #54
    robtri
    Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    This really isn't a difficult question - the answer is in the text you yourself quoted - is the Federal Reserve a public or privately owned entity?
    The answer is a privately owned one.


    the federal reserve and the federal reserve BANKS are completely different entities...
    I think this is where youa re getting confused...

    The FEDERAL RESERVE.. is goverment owned..

    then under this banks can apply to become FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS... think of it as a franchise.... (like mcdonalds..where any joe soap can buy a franchise and pay royalties every year to Mcdonalds HQ, as long as they met certain criteria)
    these FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS are normal privately owned or trade on the stock market...

    there is a huge difference between the FEDERAL RESERVE and FEDERAL RESERVE BANKS....


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    #55
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    squod wrote: »
    I think I'll just edit the page and make Donald Duck the CEO.
    I changed my stance based on evidence that was new to me, you should try it but first you will have to overcome your confirmation bias ;).


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    #56
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    Cavehill Red wrote: »
    No, it does not. The banks own the Fed, as your own links, and the relevant legislation, make crystal clear.
    I'm afraid not, there are public and private parts to the Fed System but the public part (Federal Reserve Board) dominates the actual decision making.


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    #57
    Anonymous1987
    Closed Accounts Posts: 784 ✭✭✭Anonymous1987


    phantom_lord wrote: »
    can someone plz point out to me where the huge banking conspiracy is when it's actually the us government that gets the profits from the fed?

    Correct here is the Source:
    How is the Federal Reserve funded?

    The Federal Reserve's income is derived primarily from the interest on U.S. government securities that it has acquired through open market operations. Other sources of income are the interest on foreign currency investments held by the System; fees received for services provided to depository institutions, such as check clearing, funds transfers, and automated clearinghouse operations; and interest on loans to depository institutions (the rate on which is the so-called discount rate). After paying its expenses, the Federal Reserve turns the rest of its earnings over to the U.S. Treasury.


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    #58
    Aka Ishur
    Registered Users Posts: 740 ✭✭✭Aka Ishur


    As pointed out numerous times by anon and also by robtri, the privately owned regional federal reserve banks, are very different from the government owned entity known as the 'Fed'.

    As for the myth that the fed is printing money out of thin air for no cost is just that, a myth, readily dispelled by anyone willing to look at the business pages to witness the steadily falling value of the dollar.


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    #59
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    Anon portrayed the privately owned reserve banks as being under control of the federal government which we know aren't.

    The Federal Reserve board might be appointed by the president but im adamant they make no key monetary decisions for privately owned banks..let's be honest about that atleast.

    Bernanke is what some would term "a useful idiot" and that's exactly how I see him.

    The Federal Reserve portrays itself as being independent but owned by the US government.

    Lets look at the case: Bloomberg vs Federal Reserve

    The Federal Reserve is refusing to identify the recipients of almost $2 trillion of emergency loans from American taxpayers or the troubled assets the central bank is accepting as collateral.

    The response, this document states:

    The Board denied the requests claiming that the records sought by Bloomberg did not constitute
    “records of the Board” because they were housed at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York (“FRBNY”)
    which, argued the Board, is not an agency and thus not subject to FOIA

    Isn't it just ridiculous for someone to argue the Federal Reserve is under federal control?

    Its pretty obvious the Federal Reserve is private regardless of how it is structured or how they claim to operate.

    It is not under government control in any way at all as much evidence has shown.

    I'm quite happy to accept this but there will always be someone out there "no no no...you don't understand the difference!"

    I understand we're supposed to believe there's a difference where there really is none for me personally.

    Privately owned banks are in charge of US monetary policy, not the US government.

    I'll tell you how we could settle this, let's ask Max Keiser when he's in dublin this weekend, let's get his opinion on the issue. ;)


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    #60
    phantom_lord
    Registered Users Posts: 10,894 ✭✭✭✭phantom_lord


    can you answer my question robby?

    also it should be clear why the fed is independent, bank of england and the ecb are exactly the same.


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    #61
    robbyvibes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭robbyvibes


    I didn't start this thread to argue a conspiracy.
    By definition:

    •a group of conspirators banded together to achieve some harmful or illegal purpose

    I would argue what they're doing is atleast illegal..you can judge if it's harmful, for me that's obvious.

    My thread was started to protest Ireland being saddled with debts that Irish people did not sign up to.

    "Independent"? why don't you just say "Private" because that's exactly what they are.

    The US government don't profit from the Federal Reserve, the banks do.

    Banks are in control of monetary policy, not governments.
    It's disingenuos to argue the federal reserve is under control of Bernanke in the Federal Reserve Board just because "that's what the federal reserve say on their website" rubbish.

    I'm done with this discussion TBH...I know Federal Reserve is private and that's where i'll leave it.


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