Observations on SSF IV

dyl10 · 14-11-2010 7:00pm #1

I picked up SSF IV yesterday after becoming bored of the monotony of SF IV, which I had been playing over the last few months.
I really enjoy playing on XBL, so I had been really looking forward to this.

Rog is my no. 1 character, so I thought I would check him out and see how the game had changed and improved.

The most surprising thing to strike me, was the player opponents. From SF IV there is a notable improvement in general move execution. In one of my first games I played a Ryu who pinned me into the corner, hit me with a Shoryuken, then, super Hadoken and then Ultra Hadoken me (maybe not in that direct order, can't remember). Combos like this are pulled off to a much greater level than in the previous game, it appears.

Focus attacks was the next thing I realised. The number of attempted focus attacks must have quadrupled since SF IV on XBL. This has perhaps something to do with the changes to EX moves and focus attacks, either way it's a bitch to get used to. Health bars also seem to have increased, which is a nice plus I think.

After messing around for a bit, I thought I would try and push my PB and BB upward, playing semi-seriously (PB and BB confused for a while until I read up on them). So I took Rog, played 46 games and ended with a 59% win ratio, finishing up with 1449 BP and 1112 PP.

At the moment, I find it difficult to gauge at what level of PP, players become good but one thing that struck me is the general poorness of players overall games. Taking into account that a lot of the players I played against in my first 50 games, were characters I was not familiar with, I found the general level quite poor. I'm a very average player myself, but I found peoples inability to block, to be appalling. Players with 6000 BP, a lot of experience, not being able to block a simple high punch, low punch combo surprised me. This is possibly due to a wider audience playing the newer, with maybe more hardcore SF IV players playing the old on, hence the dichotomy but I really don't know.

Overall the game is very enjoyable, the changes are pretty good I think and I look forward to more play time

A final observation is that the new characters to this game don't seem to get much of a run out when compared to the old favourites. I'm not sure if this is standard or just the sample of players I happened to play against.

Sairus · 14-11-2010 7:12pm

dyl10 wrote: »

A final observation is that the new characters to this game don't seem to get much of a run out when compared to the old favourites. I'm not sure if this is standard or just the sample of players I happened to play against.

This is pretty natural in fighters, especially in updates like Super from SF4. People have already invested months learning a character by the time the new ones are made playable, so it's a lot easier to just keep playing with their already preferred character than switch down and have to relearn a large chunk of the game. (Easier is a poor choice of words, but I assume you get what I mean)
Add to that many of the new characters they added were relatively unpopular character choices to begin with and it's fairly standard to see them played less.

Sisko · 14-11-2010 7:27pm

dyl10 wrote: »

with maybe more hardcore SF IV players playing the old on, hence the dichotomy but I really don't know.

lol well I can tell you that is certainly not the case at all.

Azza · 14-11-2010 8:05pm

dyl10 wrote:

The most surprising thing to strike me, was the player opponents. From SF IV there is a notable improvement in general move execution. In one of my first games I played a Ryu who pinned me into the corner, hit me with a Shoryuken, then, super Hadoken and then Ultra Hadoken me (maybe not in that direct order, can't remember). Combos like this are pulled off to a much greater level than in the previous game, it appears.

That combo existed in SF IV and the execution level to perform such a combo remains the same.

Ditto about focus attacks.

Health bars have actually decreased more than increased (Zangief, Honda ,Sagat for example) but in general most characters do less damage so it would seem that health has increased.

UberPrinny_Baal · 14-11-2010 8:55pm

I think the relative skill level of your opponents, and the frequency of focus attacks has nothing to do with SFIV or SSFIV or XBL or PSN or any of the number of factors people like to attribute it to. It's simply those times you were playing, some folks did it more than other times.

The only difference between the games I think you can really gauge is frequency of character use, which again is massively dependant on "that time you were playing". I imagine you would certainly come across less Sagats in Super than in Vanilla due to his power nerf.

Similarly PP and BP is no indication of skill, just frequency of play.

Endless Battle is where people get really good, and Endless battle gives no points.

Doctor DooM · 14-11-2010 8:57pm

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

Endless Battle is where people get really good, and Endless battle gives no points.

Tournaments and casuals are where people get really good!

Sisko · 14-11-2010 9:04pm

yeah but this is a discussion about online play, so in terms of online play Prinny is right.

But ultimately offline is where its at and ironically online play can damage your offline skill and vice versa.

K.O.Kiki · 14-11-2010 9:28pm

While the level of play online is just as bad as it was in Vanilla SFIV, I'd say the level of play offline has increased quite a bit.

Whereabouts in the country are you, dyl10?
There's lots of tournaments happening every month.
Check StreetFighter.ie

Ry · 15-11-2010 3:11am

You're nothing if you're not at least 3000 PP :pac: After that you're "Elite" and can wear the "Elite" title because you're in "Club3K" aka: G1.

When it comes to BP I would say 7500BP would probably know what they're doing but really 10000BP and up with a character would be classed as decent.

Azza · 15-11-2010 9:55am

UberPrinny_Baal wrote:

Endless Battle is where people get really good, and Endless battle gives no points.

Doctor Doom wrote:

Tournaments and casuals are where people get really good!

Sisko wrote:

But ultimately offline is where its at and ironically online play can damage your offline skill and vice versa.

Na..online has a greater variance in skill level than we do offline here, by virtue of sheer player numbers. Irelands player base is small and relatively new. So while there is alot of crap online, there is also some very good players (some who have been playing fighting games seriously for years) who if you can find them and have a good connection to them are the best way of improving your skill. Playing against these players consistently is the way to improve more than any other. The best way of meeting them is by finding them in ranked and playing them a few times. After that you could consider setting up a endless lobby with them.

BP and PP aren't a fool proof way of determining skill but its not bad. For example players could be ruining there PP score by trying to get the stupid C to shining C achievement. Sure there is players who keep just plugging away and grind there BP up but after you get to a certain BP looses are worth like 5 wins so it gets hard to start make progress past the 15,000bp mark. Also since there is no arcade release yet in Japan alot of Pro Jap players are playing online and there online handles are known, so you know these guys truely deserve there top spots on the leaderboard, alas the connection would not be good enough to play em.

Generally speaking anyone over 3,000 player points is pretty good. The really good players appear over 5,000 IMO.

Scavenger XIII · 15-11-2010 1:23pm

I've hardly played any online since the first couple weeks of SSF4 but I remember noticing a weird bell curve of skill vs points at the time.

Had proper good matches with several guys around 1-1.5k, but particularly remember 2 guys with 5-6k+ (by far the highest I'd encountered at the time) and both of them were absolute drooling morons who ragequit as I was about to perfect them (on the 1st round no less), and provided the usual slew of scrub rage hatemail.

This has probably smoothed over by now but I still wouldn't put much stock in such a ratings system.

Sagat06 · 15-11-2010 1:38pm

Azza wrote: »

<snip>

are you mixing up bp's and pp's? or am I reading it wrong?

Sairus · 15-11-2010 1:47pm

Sagat06 wrote: »

are you mixing up bp's and pp's?

Nope.

Azza wrote: »

For example players could be running there PP score by trying to get the stupid C to shining C achievement.
Sure there is players who keep just plugging away and grind there BP up but after you get to a certain BP looses are worth like 5 wins so it gets hard to start make progress past the 15,000bp mark.

PP is overall points total. By trying to get to C Rank with every character he's saying you're going to be dropping all the precious PP you racked up with your actual mains.
A very skilled Bison player might have an atrocious overall points total because he's lame and isn't used to playing with cool characters.

Doctor DooM · 15-11-2010 1:51pm

Sairus wrote: »

Nope.

PP is overall points total. By trying to get to C Rank with every character he's saying you're going to be dropping all the precious PP you racked up with your actual mains.
A very skilled Bison player might have an atrocious overall points total because he's lame and isn't used to playing with cool characters.

Or someone could be in a situation like me, where I'd often build my pp up to about 2,800 one night then ayjay will wear it back down to about 2000.

I mightn't be the best Guile EVAR but I'm certainly more than a 2000 pp Guile.

Damn those lame Bison players.

Placebo · 15-11-2010 2:02pm

Azza wrote: »

Na..online has a greater variance in skill level than we do offline here, by virtue of sheer player numbers. Irelands player base is small and relatively new. So while there is alot of crap online, there is also some very good players (some who have been playing fighting games seriously for years) who if you can find them and have a good connection to them are the best way of improving your skill. Playing against these players consistently is the way to improve more than any other. The best way of meeting them is by finding them in ranked and playing them a few times. After that you could consider setting up a endless lobby with them.

BP and PP aren't a fool proof way of determining skill but its not bad. For example players could be running there PP score by trying to get the stupid C to shining C achievement. Sure there is players who keep just plugging away and grind there BP up but after you get to a certain BP looses are worth like 5 wins so it gets hard to start make progress past the 15,000bp mark. Also since there is no arcade release yet in Japan alot of Pro Jap players are playing online and there online handles are known, so you know these guys truely deserve there top spots on the leaderboard, alas the connection would not be good enough to play em.

Generally speaking anyone over 3,000 player points is pretty good. The really good players appear over 5,000 IMO.

Being a player that is lives a bit far and doesnt get much offline play what would you say to a player who just sold his stick and game because he thought he wasnt getting any better because he wasnt getting much offline play [i.e casuals]

note: this person isnt me. I'm old school

unky chop chop · 15-11-2010 2:11pm

I take it that's RY?

Azza · 15-11-2010 2:35pm

Farzypan wrote:

Being a player that is lives a bit far and doesnt get much offline play what would you say to a player who just sold his stick and game because he thought he wasnt getting any better because he wasnt getting much offline play [i.e casuals]

note: this person isnt me. I'm old school

I would say "Kneel before my Psycho Power!"

Well saying your crap over and over isn't going to improve things. A willingness to accept that your not instantly going to improve helps, and that it can take weeks to months to see tangible improvements. Yes some people learn quicker than others, but your not some people, everyone learns at different rates.

There is area's I think I could improve particularly my defensive game, if I had access to a offline player who played the game regularly as we would be able to lab stuff back and forth quickly, simply because we can talk to each other. Problem with online is most of the community is microphone shy. Most people on Xbox live are microphone shy and the text message system is crap on a pad. It makes organising practise sessions with the intent of testing stuff awkward and cumbersome.

Personally I'm at a level where there is only a few people in the community I can actually learn stuff off (how to approach match ups mainly) and since not all of them attend casuals but nearly all of them play online I have greater access to these players online. I also have people on my friends list from Europe who I have a good connection that can play certain characters to a higher standard than anyone in Ireland so in that respect I learn more off them than I could going to casuals. So if your just interested improving online is better although casuals are fun in there own way and if I lived closer I would go anyway. If you do find a good player you should try to get him on your friends list keep playing him as much as possible to learn the match up. Obviously if this player is miles better than you, he might not be interested in playing more match ups,so look for players who your reasonably competitive with. Chances are higher of finding in ranked than an endless lobby.

Playing alot, practising alot and reading up a match ups will help. Problem with reading up on match ups IMO is you need to test the stuff to truely understand it and figure out what advice is good and what isn't.
On your own all you can really do is practise technical stuff like combo's but that on its own while important doesn't lead to immediate results. You can lab stuff like testing your anti air normal position. What you can punish and what you can not. Zoning and footsies have to be learn't through experience though and they are more important than combo's.

.

Doctor DooM · 15-11-2010 3:06pm

Azza wrote: »

Na..online has a greater variance in skill level than we do offline here, by virtue of sheer player numbers. Irelands player base is small and relatively new. So while there is alot of crap online, there is also some very good players (some who have been playing fighting games seriously for years) who if you can find them and have a good connection to them are the best way of improving your skill. Playing against these players consistently is the way to improve more than any other. The best way of meeting them is by finding them in ranked and playing them a few times. After that you could consider setting up a endless lobby with them.

With all due respect, you're one of the best players in the community and I don't think this advice counts so much for people who can't say that. When it comes to understanding the nuts and bolts of the game there's perhaps 2 or 3 people who could be considered on your level. But that's not how it works for the average person.

Sitting down next to a guy who'll say "don't do that, it's never going to work. Do this more" is probably worth an hour of getting your head bashed in online.

That said I also have a couple of German players who are way beyond my level but play mefor the ol' Guile practice, so I practice what you preach these days. But similarly I find sitting next to people of my own level important.

Ken B · 15-11-2010 3:12pm

Azza wrote: »

I would say "Kneel before my Psycho Power!"

There is area's I think I could improve particularly my defensive game, if I had access to a offline player who played the game regularly as we would be able to lab stuff back and forth quickly, simply because we can talk to each other. Problem with online is most of the community is microphone shy. Most people on Xbox live are microphone shy and the text message system is crap on a pad. It makes organising practise sessions with the intent of testing stuff awkward and cumbersome.

.

I was on my mic yesterday, but no sign of your's Azza....;)

It mainly would've been me screaming in frustration and complaining though, as it was a wee bit laggy(and I was playing shyte), I tried to communicate that to you on the webchat, but not sure it got through..

I'm not sure that Vega can really give you the defensive test that you're looking for, but I'm almost always available on mic, for a natter at least...

The Hound · 15-11-2010 3:19pm

I've often been kicked from lobbies for not having any points or more than 3000 and thats before I get to fight and show them how good my Dan is!. Thats on both PSN and XBOX.

Sagat06 · 15-11-2010 3:37pm

yeah Hound you are the very reason why the BP and PP doesnt really matter!

But if were to use it as a gauge I personally look at the PP, if they are above 3.5/4k you know you are gonna have at least a decent match most of the time. As Azza said once you get to a certain PP, you lose so many points with a loss that you really have to be consistent to keep it up there.

bush · 15-11-2010 3:45pm

The Hound wrote: »

I've often been kicked from lobbies for not having any points or more than 3000 and thats before I get to fight and show them how good my Dan is!. Thats on both PSN and XBOX.

Too right hound, you just arent elite enough until you get 3k+ pro points

ayjayirl · 15-11-2010 3:57pm

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Or someone could be in a situation like me, where I'd often build my pp up to about 2,800 one night then ayjay will wear it back down to about 2000.

I mightn't be the best Guile EVAR but I'm certainly more than a 2000 pp Guile.

Damn those lame Bison players.

Love the subtle hit.

Oh its on!

:mad:

Ken B · 15-11-2010 4:01pm

The Hound wrote: »

I've often been kicked from lobbies for not having any points or more than 3000 and thats before I get to fight and show them how good my Dan is!. Thats on both PSN and XBOX.

I was kicked out of a lobby for that very reason myself the other night. The host actually told me as much when I messaged him. I said that it wasn't my real account(which it's not) and was invited back in and OCV'ed them...and left.

I did endeavour to get more Ranked points as a result and had several games and my PP actually went ahead of my BP!!
(2600BP 2800PP)

It probably looks like I use loads of characters!

Azza · 15-11-2010 4:17pm

Doctor Doom wrote:

Sitting down next to a guy who'll say "don't do that, it's never going to work. Do this more" is probably worth an hour of getting your head bashed in online.

Your assuming the person who is talking actually knows what he's talking about. But online is frustrating because of lack of communication.

Ken my mic wasn't charged yesterday.
As for defensive practise its more than the shoto characters I want to practise against.

Placebo · 15-11-2010 4:28pm

I think Ramza would agree from the 3s days that if you have no other option of practice besides online than online it is. He is a prime example of a phenomenal player thats achieved his skill from online practice.
Not everyone can make casuals even the US players have to travel to each other.
Selling your stick and game because you have no local challengers is silly.

Doctor DooM · 15-11-2010 4:38pm

Azza wrote: »

Your assuming the person who is talking actually knows what he's talking about. But online is frustrating because of lack of communication.

Well yeah I am assuming that. I assume you're assuming the same thing in your online situation. Or else the argument is kinda moot

The whole point I was trying to make (which you had already pointed out as I was typing it) is that it's harder for you to find someone useful to you in real life than it is the rest of us mere mortals.

Fergus_ · 15-11-2010 5:06pm

A big thing is to find your character.

I only found my character (Sakura) a few weeks ago and I really feel that I can do a lot better with her more than other characters because she is fun to use so I am willing to learn more with her.

Don't go by tier lists. I know you might say top tier characters would win over lower tier characters but SSFIV is quite balanced. I was like that a few weeks ago but it's skill > tier list. Uryo (Sakura) has beaten Daigo (Ryu) so that match proves it for me that it's how good you are with your character.

I thought I wouldn't improve anymore but I am better than I was 2 weeks ago for example, I learned how to fight against certain characters and general fundementals. Like I still have loads more to learn, hell I don't even know what an option select is so gonna go research that.

Only in the last month or 2, I started to play seirously and actually explored for a character that suits me and learned BnBs and how to block correctly and punishes and ultra setups. When I was playing SFIV, I just arsed around and played for fun. A few months after SSFIV, I wanted to be good and at Eirtakon, D4RK_Onion introduced me to Streetfighter.ie. Played some people at eirtakon badly with Ryu (was still exploring for a character at this stage) and they pretty much inspired me to get better so I started to attend offline events like Inferno 1-2 weeks ago. Had great fun, learned new things. Just a shame I didn't get to play more people since I was kinda restricted to the PS3.

Fighting Games are not pick up and play, you will have to put work in to get good. But it's fun once you are good and still fun when you're not but learning. Don't give up!

YayForYuffie · 15-11-2010 5:31pm

Ry wrote: »

You're nothing if you're not at least 3000 PP :pac: After that you're "Elite" and can wear the "Elite" title because you're in "Club3K" aka: G1.

When it comes to BP I would say 7500BP would probably know what they're doing but really 10000BP and up with a character would be classed as decent.

w00t I retain my ubernoob status!!!

Owwmykneecap · 15-11-2010 5:46pm

Azza wrote: »

Na..online has a greater variance in skill level than we do offline here, by virtue of sheer player numbers. Irelands player base is small and relatively new. So while there is alot of crap online, there is also some very good players (some who have been playing fighting games seriously for years) who if you can find them and have a good connection to them are the best way of improving your skill. Playing against these players consistently is the way to improve more than any other. The best way of meeting them is by finding them in ranked and playing them a few times. After that you could consider setting up a endless lobby with them.

BP and PP aren't a fool proof way of determining skill but its not bad. For example players could be ruining there PP score by trying to get the stupid C to shining C achievement. Sure there is players who keep just plugging away and grind there BP up but after you get to a certain BP looses are worth like 5 wins so it gets hard to start make progress past the 15,000bp mark. Also since there is no arcade release yet in Japan alot of Pro Jap players are playing online and there online handles are known, so you know these guys truely deserve there top spots on the leaderboard, alas the connection would not be good enough to play em.

Generally speaking anyone over 3,000 player points is pretty good. The really good players appear over 5,000 IMO.

That's great achievment, gets people playing outside their comfort zone, encourages new char develpment.

It's PP that's Stupid. Lost all mine (>3500) with Hakan.

Ry · 15-11-2010 7:08pm

Placebo wrote: »

I think Ramza would agree from the 3s days that if you have no other option of practice besides online than online it is. He is a prime example of a phenomenal player thats achieved his skill from online practice.
Not everyone can make casuals even the US players have to travel to each other.
Selling your stick and game because you have no local challengers is silly.

Get over it!

Observations on SSF IV

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