B Ahern interview - Banks, blame and the Pres Election

Sir Oxman · 28-10-2010 1:26am #1

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/1028/1224282144477.html?digest=1

I don't think I have ever heard the "I blame myself" quote from his mouth but in this piece, it falls from his lips in relation to him not knowing the importance of 'keeping a tight rein' on financial institutions.
And he, the Taoiseach of the country at the time!
He qualifies this later on with 'The Central Bank reports but only what it wants to report.'

Then:
'“But who would suppose that people in such responsible positions, of huge experience, committed such culpable mistakes and didn’t exercise self-control?”

This is in regards to 'financial people' as he puts it yet he as Taoiseach, in such a responsible position, of huge experience, committed such culpable mistakes and he didn't excercise self-control.

I think Ahern is still living in bertieland where everyone and everything else is to blame - the guy contradicts himself left, right and centre, read this :

“I agree. . . that we were building too much; we believed that there would be buyers of properties forever "

On the point of why didn't his govt save on behalf of the nation when the pretend money was rolling in, a little more la-la land stuff from the man who can't believe the 'financial people' in such responsible positions could be such careless bastards with no self-control:

"From each side, from each politician, I heard constantly ‘spend, spend’ . . . I was criticised all the time that I spent too little.“If I had cut spending they would have crucified me.”

The contradictions abound.

And finally, on him and the Presidential election, seeing as he's so bored now and with little to do (intimated in the article):

“I am thinking about this. Now, it’s only an idea, but I wonder about running in the presidential elections.“Still, I have a lot of time to think about this; the election is not until 2011.”

So, he blames himself now for not realising one of his main duties was to watch over the economy and ensure proper governance of the financial system (I mean, he was an ex-MoF so what would he know...), that he was too cowardly and unintelligent to shout stop when throwing pretend money away based on what he admits was the govt belief that people would be buying property at hugely inflated prices with pretend money at the rate of knots forever and that he's now bored in his excessively salaried job, a job only 165* other people in this country have and one which can effect profound change on the whole country.
Bored??!
I don't think any ex-Taoiseach of this country has come across as such a boor and utter sleeveen as this speciman.
Not even his daddy, Haughey.

*Actually only 162 at the moment.

thebman · 28-10-2010 2:06am

Discussing the factors that led to Ireland’s economic crisis, Mr Ahern said: “I agree . . . that we were building too much; we believed that there would be buyers of properties forever . . . It was a mistake on our side. But if not for the collapse of Lehman Brothers, which in my opinion became a catalyst [for] the Irish crisis, we would have two to three years to face the problem.

They knew it wasn't forever (for one think, impossible) and another they had an open door immigration policy with the logic that Easter Europeans would move here to get jobs building and would rent and Irish people would buy houses to rent out to Eastern Europeans in the hope to create an infinite loop....

They failed to take into account that the above relied on Eastern Europeans continuing to move here, on Irish people continuing to buy for rental and on a cheap supply of credit from abroad to our banks.

Vim Fuego · 28-10-2010 5:55am

He wears his ignorance like a badge of pride. Surely, anywhere else in the world, that ignorance could be considered criminal neglect of his duties.

“But who would suppose that people in such responsible positions, of huge experience, committed such culpable mistakes and didn’t exercise self-control?”

I nearly spat out my coffee at this part.

dan_d · 28-10-2010 8:42am

Makes me sick.
The man's been going about for the last 2 years with this wide-eyed innocent looking, saying "but it wasn't me, I didn't know", every time it's referred to.He knew full well.
Methinks the gentleman protests too much...

foxcoverteddy · 28-10-2010 8:56am

To be honest if you can't charge the man with neglect of duty you can call him all the names under the sun, remember sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me, if he stands for president then is the time to launch a campaign, so what does one do with the current holders of positions of glory who are hell bent twisting the balls of the ordinary men and women of this country the vast majority of whom have paid their dues, one must remember if you squeexe to hard things break, so perhaps it is time to put the boot on the other foot and we start squeezing the politicians, run them out of office, neglect fraud where relevant and the former leaders of industry who helped themselves to the cash, lets make them realise we have had enough

oscarBravo · 28-10-2010 9:12am

Of all the eyebrow-raising aspects to this story, the one that stood out for me is the clear suggestion that he is a man of leisure now, with time on his hands.

Which makes me wonder: does his job as a TD fail to occupy him full-time, or is he just marking time and not bothering to do his job?

gbee · 28-10-2010 9:25am

Let's all remember who the man BEHIND Haughey, who was the 'brains' Haughey had the guile and dare-I-say-it, charisma to pull it off ~ £3,000 shirts and who was 'laundering' the accounts?

murphaph · 28-10-2010 9:27am

The saddest thing of all is that he'll probably be re-elected!

seamus · 28-10-2010 9:35am

Fuck you, Deputy Ahern, Fuck you.

That's pretty much all I have to say on the matter. Another top-class graduate from the CJH school of acting.

I swear to God I don't think I could bite my tongue if I ever ended up face-to-face with the man.

Liam Byrne · 28-10-2010 9:45am

seamus wrote: »

I swear to God I don't think I could bite my tongue if I ever ended up face-to-face with the man.

I think I'd have to bite my fists and my legs and my baseball bat as well.

Laminations · 28-10-2010 10:22am

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I think I'd have to bite my fists and my legs and my baseball bat as well.

This is the problem. With no apparent comeuppance for the man, in the form of shame, prison and/or financial penalty (stopping a full-time TDs salary going to a man of leisure would be a start), its moving towards the point where I (and I'd imagine many people) wouldn't feel sorry for him if he were assaulted and thats terrible. I want him to have serious consequences for his actions as his actions have had serious consequences for this country but I really don't want to see mob violence....but its moving towards a 'better than nothing' so I'm just hoping Mahon reports soon and quashes this feeling

drBill · 28-10-2010 10:26am

Ah yes, first we have the bit to make you choke on your coffee:

"If I had known this before 2008, Ireland wouldn’t have suffered. I can blame only myself"

But then normal service is resumed with:

"Practically, as politicians, we don’t have any control over them. The Central Bank reports but only what it wants to report ... My mistake was to put too much trust into what the financial people were doing."

(And just who was it in charge for most of the preceeding two decades and whose crappy laws and regulations created these conditions??) Or to sum up his autobiography in on sentence: I was responsible for all of the good stuff, someone else was responsible for all of the bad stuff.

Such an enigmatic bitter tortured individual, sometimes I seriously think this is a sort of hobby for him, whereby he wakes up the morning and asks himself how can give two fingers to his country again. But anyway, I guess I'd better not waste any more good energy trying to understand a mind like that!

Ash.J.Williams · 28-10-2010 10:31am

“I agree. . . that we were building too much; we believed that there would be buyers of properties forever "

No we F**ing did not

sheesh · 28-10-2010 10:52am

He ignored the esri reports that said that the economy was heating up.

Rubik. · 28-10-2010 10:59am

Any news on when the Mahon Tribunal is going to give it findings?

It's about the only thing with the potential to shut him up at this stage.

flutered · 28-10-2010 11:22am

the mahon will never be published, there will be just two many law suits, sorry just enough to keep the shysters in clover for a long time, just look at the moriarty report and the way it is just rumbling along.

Lenny Lovett · 28-10-2010 11:26am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of all the eyebrow-raising aspects to this story, the one that stood out for me is the clear suggestion that he is a man of leisure now, with time on his hands.

Which makes me wonder: does his job as a TD fail to occupy him full-time, or is he just marking time and not bothering to do his job?

Try ringing his constituency office, he's always "busy". Hasn't he also got a nice little earner with the News of the World.... "Bet ya nevir tought you'd see me here".... Ah.. no Bertie... I thought the toilet would be more appropriate!

johngalway · 28-10-2010 12:18pm

Same arrogance as ever

"we all"

Bo11ocks to you Bert.

gbee · 28-10-2010 12:40pm

johngalway wrote: »

Same arrogance as ever "we all"
Bo11ocks to you Bert.

You've got my vote there!

PeterIanStaker · 28-10-2010 12:45pm

Spin, spin, spin.

What's this "we" business?

Trying to do a collective guilt trip like Germany, on the advice of his despicable little Seanad lapdog no doubt.

hallelujajordan · 28-10-2010 1:21pm

It's getting a bit tedious blaming Bertie Ahern over and over for all our woes . . Lets remember that many of us (of course none of those irate posters on here now:rolleyes:) bought into Celtic tiger, enjoyed the lower tax rates and the higher disposable incomes, decided to make our fortunes in the property market (both here and abroad) and most importantly continued to ignore some of the economic forecasters and return the Ahern government.

We castigate Ahern, suggesting that he saw it coming and ignored it for personal or party gain . . the reality is that the country saw it coming and ignored it for personal gain.

Bertie Ahern wrote:

I can only blame myself

Perhaps if more of us took this approach rather than threatening to take a baseball bat to Ahern, we would ensure we never end up here again . .

johngalway · 28-10-2010 1:27pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Perhaps if more of us took this approach

I, personally, won't take that approach ever.

I don't have a mortgage.

I don't have negative equity.

I haven't had a holiday in years.

I don't go into the red with my CC or debit card.

I've never owned a new car, or bought one for more than €6.5k

I don't scrounge off the state.

I work.

I pay my taxes.

I vote.

I have no say in what the level of taxation is in this country.

I have no say in what lunatic policy this Government or previous bring in.

Years ago I saw the crash coming. I live in an area that is/was very desirable to those who had tremendious amounts of spare cash. I saw the same houses and sites for sale, and not selling... I saw the danger of 100%+ mortgages where any fool who never saved a buck in their life could build a palace... I saw the stupidity of buying an over priced house two hours from where you work, so you could sit in traffic all day long...

rantrantrant.

So don't trot out that FF bullsh1t to me please.

gbee · 28-10-2010 1:33pm

johngalway wrote: »

So don't trot out that FF bullsh1t to me please.

They think we can't see their IP addresses!!!!

senordingdong · 28-10-2010 1:39pm

johngalway wrote: »

I, personally, won't take that approach ever.

I don't have a mortgage.

I don't have negative equity.

I haven't had a holiday in years.

I don't go into the red with my CC or debit card.

I've never owned a new car, or bought one for more than €6.5k

I don't scrounge off the state.

I work.

I pay my taxes.

I vote.

I have no say in what the level of taxation is in this country.

I have no say in what lunatic policy this Government or previous bring in.

But if you could have afforded those things, you would have, right?

johngalway · 28-10-2010 1:43pm

senordingdong wrote: »

But if you could have afforded those things, you would have, right?

The important word there is "afforded".

Simply because the bank will give you the money doesn't mean you can "afford" to take that money.

If you're coming down a steep hill on a bicycle, a small pothole will throw you off. Sure we never had it as good, spend, spend, spend, this will go on forever lads, we're the richest in the world....

If I could have afforded to build myself a house, as in the definition of affordable in reality, I surely would have.

I knew I couldn't, so I didn't.

People done outright daft things.

But, Bertie encouraged them. Talk down the economy? Go hang yerselves!

Reeling in the Years the last night had Charlie McCreevy (who appointed him Finance again please?) telling the EU to F off when they told us we couldn't "afford" to do what we were doing, was that 2001/2002, some time like that anyway.

Yes, people did indeed do dumb things, and they will pay for it. The Government encouraged them in their actions and they will get away with fat pensions and pats on the backs from their friends.

gandalf · 28-10-2010 1:48pm

I cannot believe people are still defending or support Ahern. The man was being paid an awful lot of money to lead this country and ensure that in years to come we as a society were developing in a way that ensure the majority of citizens could prosper. Instead he ran the country into the ground, bailing as Taoiseach once it became apparent that disaster was around the corner.

People are also forgetting that he is not retired he is still a TD but it appears from his attendence record in the Dail that he feels he is already retired.

The fact he even thinks he has a chance at the Presidential election shows how deluded the man is. The fact he can pen an Autobiography yet doesn't know the basics on where his finances are also say a lot. The fact he has got his Autobiography classified as "Art" shows him for the parasite that he is. He takes everything yet gives nothing back. The man is a disgrace to this country.

Liam Byrne · 28-10-2010 3:12pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Lets remember that many of us (of course none of those irate posters on here now:rolleyes:) bought into Celtic tiger, enjoyed the lower tax rates and the higher disposable incomes, decided to make our fortunes in the property market (both here and abroad) and most importantly continued to ignore some of the economic forecasters and return the Ahern government.

Let's also remember that "many of us" didn't; and your condescending and sarcastic rolleyes implies that you choose not to acknowledge that fact.

Until you do acknowledge that fact, you can't really objectively contribute to a discussion as to who is to blame.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We castigate Ahern, suggesting that he saw it coming and ignored it for personal or party gain . . the reality is that the country saw it coming and ignored it for personal gain.

Maybe in your reality, but those who did see it coming either stuck to that view (and still do) or else their concerns were alleviated by them believing Ahern's spin.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Perhaps if more of us took this approach rather than threatening to take a baseball bat to Ahern, we would ensure we never end up here again . .

Perhaps if Ahern and yourself acknowledged the facts and stopped trying to blame everyone you might both have some credibility when discussing the topic.

- I didn't rip people off
- I didn't borrow beyond my means (on record as describing a loan that a bank offered that I turned down, even though I wanted it; I knew I couldn't afford it)
- I didn't fall for Ahern's lies

If you want to stop blaming me and doling out sarcasm every time I have to repeatedly point out the facts, then I might listen to your opinions.

But if you can't differentiate between who contributed and who didn't, then you're hardly in a position to discuss how much Ahern contributed.

Flimbos · 28-10-2010 3:14pm

I find it incredible that he is still blaming Lehmann Brothers...
"But if not for the collapse of Lehman Brothers, which in my opinion became a catalyst [for] the Irish crisis, we would have two to three years to face the problem."
I wonder what exactly he was planning to do during those "two to three years"?

I agree, the fact that he still thinks he can just stroll into the Áras, and furthermore, the fact that he actually thinks it's his entitlement, shows that the man is deluded - he is a disgrace.

johngalway · 28-10-2010 3:56pm

Flimbos wrote: »

I find it incredible that he is still blaming Lehmann Brothers...

Apologies for the OTness of this post. Anyone who goes to see "Despicable Me", keep a close eye out when yer man goes to the bank, good for a chuckle

hallelujajordan · 28-10-2010 10:01pm

johngalway wrote: »

I, personally, won't take that approach ever.

I don't have a mortgage.

I don't have negative equity.

I haven't had a holiday in years.

I don't go into the red with my CC or debit card.

I've never owned a new car, or bought one for more than €6.5k

I don't scrounge off the state.

I work.

I pay my taxes.

I vote.

I have no say in what the level of taxation is in this country.

I have no say in what lunatic policy this Government or previous bring in.

Years ago I saw the crash coming. I live in an area that is/was very desirable to those who had tremendious amounts of spare cash. I saw the same houses and sites for sale, and not selling... I saw the danger of 100%+ mortgages where any fool who never saved a buck in their life could build a palace... I saw the stupidity of buying an over priced house two hours from where you work, so you could sit in traffic all day long...

rantrantrant.

So don't trot out that FF bullsh1t to me please.

Congratulations . .

Your personal testimony is interesting but irrelevant. The fact is that most people were not in your position and are not so careful about what they can 'afford' or not. . If they were, we wouldn't be here and if they were we would not have had all the major political parties looking for a mandate on increased public spending and lower personal taxation for the last 15 years. . .

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Let's also remember that "many of us" didn't; and your condescending and sarcastic rolleyes implies that you choose not to acknowledge that fact.

Until you do acknowledge that fact, you can't really objectively contribute to a discussion as to who is to blame.

Refer to my point above . . yes, many of us didnt and for what its worth, I include myself in that camp. It doesn't mean I can't recognise that 'many of us did' and that the problem was caused in part by FF policies and by Bertie Ahern . . but also in part by the 'many of us' who did !

And it is neither condescending or sarcastic to roll my eyes at the many people who castigate Bertie Ahern and others. It's simply disbelieving. I don't believe that everyone who comes on here and slates the government for their economic policies actually led the pure life that they claim. . Sure, I accept your bona-fides because I have debated this particular issue at length with you but do I accept everybodies ? No ? Do I believe that there is an element of anonymous two-facedness on here ? Absolutely !

I had dinner with a friend the other night . . This guy is the most anti-FFer you could meet . . he has similar ideas to you regarding what to do with a baseball bat . . He blames FF policies for why we are where we are. . . He was not pleased when I pointed out to him that in 2004, he and his partner together owned 4 properties, 3 of them on interest only mortgages and in fact he was a large part of the reason we are where we are.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Perhaps if Ahern and yourself acknowledged the facts and stopped trying to blame everyone you might both have some credibility when discussing the topic.

- I didn't rip people off
- I didn't borrow beyond my means (on record as describing a loan that a bank offered that I turned down, even though I wanted it; I knew I couldn't afford it)
- I didn't fall for Ahern's lies

C'Mon Liam, you have read enough of my posts to know that I acknowledge FF failings and the responsibility they bear for the current situation. I'm just looking beyond that at the other factors that were involved.

Liam Byrne wrote:

If you want to stop blaming me and doling out sarcasm every time I have to repeatedly point out the facts, then I might listen to your opinions.

Do we really need to do this again ? Do you really need me to acknowledge your personal innocence every time I try to recognise the involvement of the broader population ?

johngalway · 28-10-2010 10:06pm

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Congratulations . .

Your personal testimony is interesting but irrelevant. The fact is that most people were not in your position and are not so careful about what they can 'afford' or not. . If they were, we wouldn't be here and if they were we would not have had all the major political parties looking for a mandate on increased public spending and lower personal taxation for the last 15 years. . .

Oh right, only relevant if I agree with you

I look forward to more heavyweight posting of this nature.

The facts, as much as you dislike them, are that FF were in power, FF did the damage, and now FF are reaping the whirlwind FF has sown. Unfortunately for the rest of us, we're stuck in it without fat pensions, newspaper columns, TV ads and book deals.

Must be tough being Bert.

B Ahern interview - Banks, blame and the Pres Election

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