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So IMRO is about to kill Irish independant music.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭me-skywalker


    Yes myspace are included in this, so apparently are all social networks.

    Cast of Cheers have pulled out of the IMRO Showcase Best Of tomorrow in protest at IMRO's action against the bloggers

    This is opening up a bigger can of worms than I think they realise. I worked with IMRO several times and great people to deal with and there service on paper works but its hard to manage and put into practice I assuem this is jsut another way to try increase their books and margins.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭dionsiseire


    Indeed,

    Nialler9, Shane and Darragh (the 3 bloggers contacted so far) will be meeting IMRO next week.

    looking forward to seeing the outcome of that


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,339 ✭✭✭me-skywalker


    Indeed,

    Nialler9, Shane and Darragh (the 3 bloggers contacted so far) will be meeting IMRO next week.

    looking forward to seeing the outcome of that


    Yea very interesting... While straight away people might seem like it looks scandalous and holding back the progression of Irish music im sure tehre is some reasoning behind it and they have consulted some top lawyers on a case like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    GOWAN THE CAST OF CHEERS!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    The implications of this are quite massive. Mind bogglingly so. I'm trying to go through everything and see what extent my music if affected. I don't think Irish musicians want this and it really enforces the point that IMRO owns your performance royalties. In the past I've been a fan of giving permission to sites such as mp3hugger because they do a good job and are respectful of the musician's wishes.

    I take it a musician that has never signed up to IMRO is exempt from this stupidity? It would make a strong argument for artists to at least delay signing up to IMRO until they'll make a real gain.

    Also, a song that's not yet registered with IMRO, is it also exempt, or do IMRO excercise a blanket ownership over composers that have signed on the dotted line?


    I think a key point in this whole thing is the type of people who are on IMRO's board of directors. The vote happened last year or so... not one young writer amongst them and the only name I recognised was Christy Moore. Is it perhaps time that Irish musicians took more notice of this stuff and started getting younger members on the board? I think it's an obvious yes.

    Can IMRO members actually "quit"? When you sign on the dotted line it's a contract, just wondering if it's an easy one to break.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    It's sick that musicians don't have the right to license their own creations. That it belongs to a record company is horrible
    Are you serious? They do have the right. Have you not heard of a band creating their own record label? The fact is the record companies provide the much needed start up capital bands need to get going. They aren't forced into cooperation, as you would have us believe. I think the record companies are unfairly tarnished by some people so that they can somehow legitimise their "free" downloading.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Facebook group, in it's very early stages:
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=118423761516287

    I'd really appreciate your support. With the bloggers are meeting IMRO next week, every little helps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    It's sick that musicians don't have the right to license their own creations. That it belongs to a record company is horrible

    This, for once, is nothing to do with big bad record labels. While record labels often own the copyright to musicians' music (and hence have a problem with free downloads etc), this issue is to do with performance rights, which, unless I'm mistaken, are normally owned by the composers (and sometimes inherited.)


  • Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭pauliewallie


    I get the forms every year from imro about the board and whos on it and what not, most names I dont recognise. I have never taken an interest in the politics of it really, maybe I should have, a matter for another day. One thing I think is that there are not many young Irish musicians anywhere near the board of Imro who may have navigated them away from this contoversial decision. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Maybe what we need to change in Irish music rights not coming down heavy on blogs is a new breed coming through, so instead of Paul Brady, Eleanor McEvoy and Christy Moore deciding what is best for Irish Music we have .... well lets just say, others!

    Completely off topic ... Can I just add .. Film School :p
    Fewcifur wrote: »
    The implications of this are quite massive. Mind bogglingly so. I'm trying to go through everything and see what extent my music if affected. I don't think Irish musicians want this and it really enforces the point that IMRO owns your performance royalties. In the past I've been a fan of giving permission to sites such as mp3hugger because they do a good job and are respectful of the musician's wishes.

    I take it a musician that has never signed up to IMRO is exempt from this stupidity? It would make a strong argument for artists to at least delay signing up to IMRO until they'll make a real gain.

    Also, a song that's not yet registered with IMRO, is it also exempt, or do IMRO excercise a blanket ownership over composers that have signed on the dotted line?


    I think a key point in this whole thing is the type of people who are on IMRO's board of directors. The vote happened last year or so... not one young writer amongst them and the only name I recognised was Christy Moore. Is it perhaps time that Irish musicians took more notice of this stuff and started getting younger members on the board? I think it's an obvious yes.

    Can IMRO members actually "quit"? When you sign on the dotted line it's a contract, just wondering if it's an easy one to break.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭JJ


    Mia Sparrow have also dropped out of tonight's gig:

    http://miasparrowmusic.com/blog/wordpress/?p=99

    Is anybody actually going to this gig? It'd be nice if no one showed up (bands and fans) to send a message.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭Miguel_Sanchez


    JJ wrote: »
    Mia Sparrow have also dropped out of tonight's gig:

    http://miasparrowmusic.com/blog/wordpress/?p=99

    Is anybody actually going to this gig? It'd be nice if no one showed up (bands and fans) to send a message.

    Definitely not going now as I only wanted to see Cast of Cheers and Mia Sparrow.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Hot Press have embarrassed themselves in their attempt to cover this, I must say:

    http://www.hotpress.com/IMRO/news/IMRO-to-meet-bloggers-over-licence-row/6494389.html?page_no=2&show_comments=1

    The TortureGarden's response covers it nicely.
    It's a bad article.

    It's unfair and inaccurate. There are a few classic hallmarks of bad journalism in there: the fact that it's written about people who weren't once contacted for comment, the scathing, unfounded and unchallenged remarks from anonymous contributors, the opening assertation that the piece presents both sides of the story.

    It opens with the line: "Hot Press has been talking to people on both sides of the online music payment divide." Yet curiously, none of them were the three bloggers contacted by IMRO.
    There are a few odd comments inserted throughout the piece. They mention that some sites are ad-free, and essentially run on enthusiasm, but they don't mention that two of the three concerned sites fall into this category, preferring instead to list the ads recently seen on Nialler9. Most notably, two anonymous sources are quoted, making rather contentious comments about blogs and advertising. Firstly, a nameless advertising industry insider describes these ads as "a handy little earner," though they go on to note that "[o]ne of the weaknesses of blogs is that they tend to be frequented by a small number of people who create a disproportionate number of page impressions, so for obvious reasons no one is willing to pay much to be on those kind of sites."

    Instead of a quote from me, or one of the other concerned bloggers, who were deemed uninteresting and unessential to the task at hand, we are given this conjecture, which adds nothing to the debate, and is not based on any knowledge of any of our sites. I'm not sure what relevance it has, but it certainly sounds bad. I imagine a lot of readers would like to know what our reservations about the licence are, but I guess the anonymous source was more reliable.

    The second anonymous contributor is the one with the best lines, though. Named only as an IMRO songwriter, he declares:

    Look, it isn’t exactly a popular thing to say, but the fact is that bloggers are part of the real economy. In lots of cases they're looking for and accepting payment for advertising. And to generate the traffic which attracts advertising they're indiscriminately using other people's music – often international music and often by big name artists.

    I’m all for people being able to waive any royalties they might be due, if they want to. I might do it myself. But that’s different from someone deciding they’ll take whatever music they want, and do whatever they feel like with it with no permission from anybody.

    This blog does not look for payment for advertising. Neither does Asleep on the Compost Heap. That's two of the three concerned blogs. Any regular reader will have surely noticed that I frequently fall behind on posting, conduct ill-suited to a blogger trying to generate traffic - and when it comes to the "international music" (what? Is foreign music especially popular or something?) and Big Name Artists, well, I may as well not be trying at all.

    None of the concerned blogs are known for being the kind to "take whatever music [we] want and do whatever [we] feel like with it with no permission from anybody." The quotation is superfluous, and that unrelated assertation should have been challenged.

    Why, if I didn't know better, I'd say maybe they feel a bit threatened to see music journalists doing actual music journalism. Maybe Olaf can write a short story about it? Everyone loves those, right?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,746 ✭✭✭✭FewFew


    Poor on the part of Hotpress. I wonder do they pay IMRO a license for their online media content, hidden behind a subscription fee as it is.

    They also should have had two sides of the writer/musician point of view, this thread alone displays a number of IMRO members in support of the bloggers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭Miguel_Sanchez


    Can't say I'm surprised at the Hotpress article. Their standards have been dropping for years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    In all fairness they did contact artists who were not in favour of the IMRO move. Not as biased as some make it out to be


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    The loophole (of kinds) is that you can link or embed music from Licenced site
    I thought you could only link to a site for viewing in ireland if the license has been paid in ireland?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    They let a load of innuendo and a number of blatantly false statements about these blogs, such as the one about them being "a nice little earner" go right though unchallenged. And they didn't even attempt to contact a single one of the bloggers concerned, so the people this whole thing is about didn't get a chance to do it for them. It's not like they aren't available for comment or anything.

    Hot Press start out paying lip-service to the notion of journalistic impartiality, and then they let a bunch of "anonymous" IMRO sources take a load of irrelevant and misleading potshots at the integrity of the bloggers didn't even bother their holes to email, before giving their magical fantasy source the - again, misleading and irrelevant - final word on the whole subject.

    That strikes me as a transparent attempt to load the dice.

    At the very least, it's woefully incompetent journalism; and if that's the case, they've got some nerve letting the bloggers get roasted for their practices and standards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭dionsiseire


    Was delighted to hear MIA pulled out too, they have organised a gig in Castlebar as a gig against IMRO's actions

    IMRO have published their FAQ on the license, i'll save you some time, its nothing all of us bloggers havnt already confirmed
    http://www.imro.ie/imro_article/limited-online-licensing-blog-services-ireland

    The hotpress article is an embarassment, the controversial statements are from "Anonymous" sources, they try to imply bloggers are making a mint (there's only one blogger with any kind of advertising revenue and even he has said it really isnt much) the rest of us have next to zero revenue (if not losing money). They imply the music is put up without permission, nothing could be further from the truth and there is no medium upon which to challenge the content or write a comment and the article doesnt even say who wrote it (had i written that i would hide my name too)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    So IMRO are meeting the blog guys tomorrow/today. Best of luck to them, and here's hoping that the whole mess can be resolved to everybody's satisfaction.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,106 ✭✭✭turbot


    I think that the decision makers in the IMRO should be tested to evaluate their competency with technology.

    If they are unable to:

    - synchronise their mobile phone with their laptop
    - explain what an RSS feed is and how it's meritorious
    - use search operators (i.e. + / - / "" ) for better search results in google
    - install a plugin in a browser

    They should be disqualified from working on the grounds of complete incompetency and lack of awareness thereof, constituting gross negligence.

    (Too often, people who's head are stuck in 1996 precepts, are attempting to enforce regulations on a medium they don't understand, because they can't be bothered to update their way of thinking.)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,167 ✭✭✭Notorious


    Any word on how the meeting went?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 650 ✭✭✭Aridstarling


    Niall's got a little write up. Seems to have been alright. No major changes but at least there's dialogue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,660 ✭✭✭✭maccored


    In all fairness they did contact artists who were not in favour of the IMRO move. Not as biased as some make it out to be

    they did? they didnt seem to contact too many IMRO members who werent in favour of it. After the meeting yesterday apparently they will now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,417 ✭✭✭Miguel_Sanchez


    turbot wrote: »
    I think that the decision makers in the IMRO should be tested to evaluate their competency with technology.

    If they are unable to:

    - synchronise their mobile phone with their laptop
    - explain what an RSS feed is and how it's meritorious
    - use search operators (i.e. + / - / "" ) for better search results in google
    - install a plugin in a browser

    Just don't start applying those criteria to Mods cause I'd be outta here on half of them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,335 ✭✭✭smackbunnybaby


    In all fairness they did contact artists who were not in favour of the IMRO move. Not as biased as some make it out to be
    maccored wrote: »
    they did? they didnt seem to contact too many IMRO members who werent in favour of it. After the meeting yesterday apparently they will now.

    I agree with maccored here - I don't think IMRO contacted anyone prior to moving in on the bloggers.
    But as was just pointed out they have to now.

    Who said otherwise? Hotpress?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    I agree with maccored here - I don't think IMRO contacted anyone prior to moving in on the bloggers.
    But as was just pointed out they have to now.

    Who said otherwise? Hotpress?
    Was referring to the hot press article;


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